PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for Combat Changes

Bladerunner1

We now have light attack damage rescaled so that DW light attacks > 2H light attacks > Bow light attacks.

We also know ZOS want us to weave light attacks.

So why make LA weaving cooldowns so different between all those weapons? Maybe it's just my PC setup, I dunno. I'm not talking about light attack spam, which...also is extremely different between all those weapons, this is about weaving. DW is the easiest weapon to use while weaving those all-important light attacks between skills and it deals the most damage. The light attack button can be applied after using a spam skill (like surprise attack) and almost instantaneously the light attack happens. It's as if the attack happens a little before the next skill can be used, and the game remembers all of the input attacks.

2H light attacks feel clunkier as they are applied between skills and bows are even clunkier than 2H. While using light attacks between crushing weapon for example you can easily miss the light attacks if you're inputting attacks in too much of a hurry. For bows you really must wait till the last split second and witness the light attack fire before hitting the next skill. The input rythm feels very different and tends to cause delays in a rotation. If you're waiting for the visual cue of a light attack before hitting the next skill on a slow or glitchy PC setup this might lead to lower DPS, even though the skill global cooldowns are more or less the same.

hedna123b14_ESO

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO I meant in terms of the equivalent regen being 480.

Sym is a strong skill, no doubt. It's burst Mag in trade for a required burst heal. As a templar tank, you don't always have the luxury of being able to eat an extra 6k health, whereas Channeled is a constant additional source.

Sym is a gamble for a potentially big payoff. With channeled, there is no gamble required.

I guess we need to clarify the parameters of our discussion speaking strictly in terms of pve dps. Healers dont use channeled and tanks are dks lol

Avran_Sylt

How 'bout this:

(Skill Rework)
Rune Prison: (Ground Target- Instant Cast - 3m Radial AoE) (Think NB Fear Trap)

-Inscribe the ground at a target location for 120s. After a short arming time (0.5s - small animation of a rune being magically inscribed into the ground) the rune will Stun and Damage the next player to enter it. The Stun bypasses block and roll-dodge.

Rune Cage:
-The enemy is now immobilized in addition to being stunned.

Defensive Rune: (Self-Target - 1s Cast Time)
-Inscribe the runes upon yourself for 120s, stunning and damaging the next enemy to attack you. The Stun bypasses Block and Roll-dodge.

Maura_Neysa

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

How 'bout this:

(Skill Rework)
Defensive Rune: (Self-Target - 1s Cast Time)
-Inscribe the runes upon yourself for 120s, stunning and damaging the next enemy to attack you. The Stun bypasses Block and Roll-dodge.

No way thats getting off the ground at 120s. This would be a Sorc Wings/Shimmering, you dont get any more time than that for a self cast skill that makes no one want to attack you.

IAVITNI

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

How 'bout this:

(Skill Rework)
Defensive Rune: (Self-Target - 1s Cast Time)
-Inscribe the runes upon yourself for 120s, stunning and damaging the next enemy to attack you. The Stun bypasses Block and Roll-dodge.

No way thats getting off the ground at 120s. This would be a Sorc Wings/Shimmering, you dont get any more time than that for a self cast skill that makes no one want to attack you.

And this is proof of how little people understand sorcs yet still call for nerfs.

Inb4 people call for a Defensive Rune nerf because "sorcs can't have a skill that makes them unattackable for 2 minutes!" because obviously that's how it works.

And I don't mean this as an attack at you Marua. I don't expect people to know the fine details of every classes skills, especially for a relatively non-meta morph of a skill that has only recently become "public" knowledge. So many people have opinions on these forums yet don't see the full picture. Regardless of their intentions, this only ever ends up over nerfing the wrong aspects.

Any forum input should really by filtered by class reps. Afaik, they all have understanding of all classes. They may not play every class but I believe that they are aware of their limitations in regards to their class knowledge and would seek clarification before/while making a statement like the above.

BTW, defensive rune has always had a 2 minute duration. Timing cc if very important, so taking that away is a fair trade off for a random cc. It's mostly used on the overload bar for anti ganking anyways.

Maura_Neysa

IAVITNI wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

How 'bout this:

(Skill Rework)
Defensive Rune: (Self-Target - 1s Cast Time)
-Inscribe the runes upon yourself for 120s, stunning and damaging the next enemy to attack you. The Stun bypasses Block and Roll-dodge.

No way thats getting off the ground at 120s. This would be a Sorc Wings/Shimmering, you dont get any more time than that for a self cast skill that makes no one want to attack you.

And this is proof of how little people understand sorcs yet still call for nerfs.

Inb4 people call for a Defensive Rune nerf because "sorcs can't have a skill that makes them unattackable for 2 minutes!" because obviously that's how it works.

And I don't mean this as an attack at you Marua. I don't expect people to know the fine details of every classes skills, especially for a relatively non-meta morph of a skill that has only recently become "public" knowledge. So many people have opinions on these forums yet don't see the full picture. Regardless of their intentions, this only ever ends up over nerfing the wrong aspects.

Any forum input should really by filtered by class reps. Afaik, they all have understanding of all classes. They may not play every class but I believe that they are aware of their limitations in regards to their class knowledge and would seek clarification before/while making a statement like the above.

BTW, defensive rune has always had a 2 minute duration. Timing cc if very important, so taking that away is a fair trade off for a random cc. It's mostly used on the overload bar for anti ganking anyways.

Yes 2 minutes is WAY to long even for an unused morph. I dont really have a problem with Rune Cage, other than its buggy Break Free. It and Fear that doesn't actually animate you. That's not a Sorc fault or the skills, thats just ZoS being ZoS.

If you have a skill that is going to force me to root myself for attacking you, it needs to be effort to maintain, either via cost or diligence.
Now the cost is 3510 base, which is the same as Reflective, and slightly more than Shimmering. So that leaves diligence.
With Wardens, I know I'm going to give them Major Heroism or have to not use some skills. With DK, I know I'm going to have to eat my next 4 projectiles, or not use some skills. With Defensive Rune, I know I'm going to have to eat a root or not use some skills/any skills.
Your idea works except that if I can't afford to eat a root, i have to leave you alone for long enough for you to recover all your resources 4 times over? That's seriously broken. On the other hand if I have to eat a root or let you have 6 seconds of recovery time? That's something to consider as a change. The only reason Defensive Rune hasn't been nerfed is because as you said, no one knows about it.
Now I will admit, that the cast time is something to consider. Whether that is enough counter play is something I'm not comfortable voicing an opinion on

Because Defensive Rune would only work against one attack I could see it lasting for considerable longer than Shimmering or Wings, but considering both of those are 6s for 3/4 projectiles, while Defensive Rune would be for one of any attack, it shouldn't be any more than 24 seconds.

As for the trap, I actually think thats too punishing. Wardens Frozen Gate isn't used much in PvP. That's because its too iffy, you have to be in a Duel style fight and trust that they forget where it is. Even in BGs most fights are to mobile for that. So because your suggestion is crapping on one morph, (assuming the trap aspect carriers to the Cage morph) that makes the other more appealing. Stuns and Roots seems kind of redundant, but spending double the resources to first break free and then dodge roll would be punishing. Again though, I dont feel I have enough of an opinion on that one to comment on it.

So did I draw enough of the picture for you too see I, in fact, do look at the whole picture?

Twohothardware

Rune Cage is bad and needs nerfed but the bigger issue to me is still the shield stacking and how Bastion in the CP tree remains completely untouched after all the nerfs last year to Healing CP and to Healing and Health Recovery in general with how Major Defile now applies to everything and gets easily boosted to 50% Defile with Befoul.

If you go look at MagSorc in non CP modes like Battlegrounds you can see how much more balanced the class is in terms of the shield stacking. Bastion needs to get the same treatment Healing CP got last year and Shield scaling probably needs to be adjusted as well because Max Magicka just keeps going higher every update, especially now that Staves count as 2 pieces.

casparian

Twohothardware wrote: »

Rune Cage is bad and needs nerfed but the bigger issue to me is still the shield stacking and how Bastion in the CP tree remains completely untouched after all the nerfs last year to Healing CP and to Healing and Health Recovery in general with how Major Defile now applies to everything and gets easily boosted to 50% Defile with Befoul.

If you go look at MagSorc in non CP modes like Battlegrounds you can see how much more balanced the class is in terms of the shield stacking. Bastion needs to get the same treatment Healing CP got last year and Shield scaling probably needs to be adjusted as well because Max Magicka just keeps going higher every update, especially now that Staves count as 2 pieces.

Bastion isn't the problem. Many magsorcs don't even run any points in Bastion, as it's inefficient to do so. Hardy, Ele Defender, Thick-Skinned, and Ironclad all scale much better than Bastion and apply to shields.

Shields were indirectly nerfed in Summerset due to the general buff to all damage without corresponding shield buffs. If you're having trouble defeating sorcs, it's likely your build that's the problem.

Aliyavana

The projectile change to sloads is a nice step but still not enough. Magika classes can't afford to dodge roll out of sloads proc in an outnumbered situation. If we are going the projectile route, changing it to function like velidreth would add skill in getting it to land. Oblivion damage is the most destructive damage type and it being dodgable isn't a viable solution for magika setups.

Takes-No-Prisoner

IAVITNI wrote: »

And I don't mean this as an attack at you Marua. I don't expect people to know the fine details of every classes skills, especially for a relatively non-meta morph of a skill that has only recently become "public" knowledge. So many people have opinions on these forums yet don't see the full picture. Regardless of their intentions, this only ever ends up over nerfing the wrong aspects.

Well said.

Many of "those people", also do not play the class, nor care to learn about how it works. But instead attack the thing they see the most on the death recap. I bet you they'd change the tune of their woeful trumpet if they got into the shoes of the guy who does main MagSorc.

Iamnuff

Comment about all snares, roots, and other CCs. Using Rune-Prison as an example.

It's obvious that there's an issue between PVP and PVE here.
For PVE a five-second stun was useful and earned it a place on your bar despite having limited space and it dealing no damage. For PVP it was much too long and basically a death-sentence to anyone hit.

Now at 2.5 seconds it's still powerful and dangerous in pvp, but kind of worthless in PVE. Not worth the skillpoint, not worth the slot.

This is a shame, because it's an interesting skill. (Especially the defensive morph.)
Lots of other hard and soft CC has gone the same way. Lowered duration or been made easier to deal with in pvp has made them borderline not worth using in pve, which... is kind of the majority of the game. Atleast from my perspective.

For Alliance skills I don't really mind. Those are intended to be PVP skills. I take issue with skills from my class-trees being taken away from me though.
Tools that I'd been using to handle dungeons simply aren't there anymore, or don't behave reliably because they'd been used to ganksquads in a game-mode that I don't care about.

Rather than trying to find that impossible sweet-spot where both groups of players are happy and consider the skill 'worthwhile but not broken' would it be possible to just have snares and stuns behave differently when used on players?

It's not like this isn't a problem that every MMO has had to find a way to balance. The 'two rules' method is the one that lots of them settled on in the end, because it works.

Bump the skills back to their original pre-nerf duration (from 2.5s to 5s, in most cases ) then implement a global rule that all CC lasts half as long against players.

From the point-of-view of PVPers, nothing really changes. From the point of view of everyone else, crowd-control skills suddenly became worth slotting again.

Tanking is already pretty tough in this game, with the lack of reliable taunts to keep enemies away from the squishy backliners.
If you lock away all the CC just because the player-verse-player crowd doesn't like it, then we're going to be in real trouble.

edit: Looking back through the thread, it looks like a LOT of things could use separate balancing between PVP and PVE.
It looks like the majority of the attempts to balance PVP involve taking tools away from PVEers, which... feels backwards.

Two-rules. I can't be the first person to suggest this. Is there some technical reason why it's not possible?