grannas211 wrote: »

weedgenius wrote: »

I’m a pretty new player and this is something that really blows my mind. Reading guides and stuff, it’s like some races (Orc and Nord come to mind) are just considered so inferior that they don’t even get mentioned as best options. There’s all this concern about class balance but what about races?

whaaaa? Orc is top tier pvp stam race.

I only do PVE atm so that's what I'm referring to I guess.

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Argonian is best in slot by far in PvP for MagDK, MagNB, Magplar, and MagDen. The other races are not even close. A few more percent damage on races like Breton and High Elf doesn't make up for the 9% health, 10% healing, and way more sustain from Argonian using Potions that don't require you to have high Regen stats to benefit. Because of that on an Argonian you can stack more damage on the actual sets while other races you have to give up that damage for Recovery sets.

The thing people don't realize when they compare Argonian's Resourceful sustain passive to other Races with 9-10% extra Recovery is the way it works in a PvP fight or when tanking. Argonians resource return works out to around 103 Magicka, Stamina, and Health Regen if you're using no Potion cooldown Glyphs (if you were I think it's around double that).

This might not seem like a lot but what makes it OP is you get to choose when you want all that regen instantly. With a flat 10% regen bonus not only do you have to spec into recovery to get the benefit unlike with Argonian but that extra Recovery is a very small amount per second. If you're completely out of Magicka or Stamina an extra 10% Recovery makes little difference in those next few seconds of the fight but if you can pop a potion and get 4620 Magicka, Stamina, and Health all at once it's huge with helping you survive and get back into the fight.

Another thing people forget is that Stamina does not regen when you are sprinting or blocking. With Argonian though you can pop a potion while holding block and get the resources. That's why every single Tank build from Alcast and others tells you to pick Argonian.

Then couple that with 3% Magicka and 10% healing which equals more healing than any 10% Magicka on High Elf or Breton and then 9% extra health where Argonian is the only Magicka race that gets bonus health and you have a Race that's considerably more survivable than the rest.

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Argonian is best in slot by far in PvP for MagDK, MagNB, Magplar, and MagDen. The other races are not even close. A few more percent damage on races like Breton and High Elf doesn't make up for the 9% health, 10% healing, and way more sustain from Argonian using Potions that don't require you to have high Regen stats to benefit. Because of that on an Argonian you can stack more damage on the actual sets while other races you have to give up that damage for Recovery sets.

Can we stop pretending like the Argonian resourceful passive adds a lot to sustain? Looking at the math, it gives 4620 Health, Stamina and Magicka when you activate a potion. You can activate a potion every 45s. Thats works out to 4620/45 = 102 regen for each stat pool. Now looking at a High Elf, they give a flat 9% increase to magicka regen. Assuming the average build in PVP has 2000 magicka regen, that comes out to 180 magicka regen and thats a conservative assumption for average magicka regen. Plus the 4% increase to elemental damage and extra 7% magicka they get compared to Argonians, you're simply trading damage for sustainability between the two. So lets stop pretending like Argonians extra 102 regen allows you to completely pack for damage without considering sustain sets

Read my next post just above yours as I explain just that. In a PvP fight having 2000 Regen is spread out over that 45 seconds. Fights are won and decided much of the time in a matter of <5 seconds. Being able to get 103 Magicka, Stamina, and Health Regen instantaneously makes considerably more difference than an extra 10% of just Magicka spread out over 45 seconds.

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Argonian is best in slot by far in PvP for MagDK, MagNB, Magplar, and MagDen. The other races are not even close. A few more percent damage on races like Breton and High Elf doesn't make up for the 9% health, 10% healing, and way more sustain from Argonian using Potions that don't require you to have high Regen stats to benefit. Because of that on an Argonian you can stack more damage on the actual sets while other races you have to give up that damage for Recovery sets.

Can we stop pretending like the Argonian resourceful passive adds a lot to sustain? Looking at the math, it gives 4620 Health, Stamina and Magicka when you activate a potion. You can activate a potion every 45s. Thats works out to 4620/45 = 102 regen for each stat pool. Now looking at a High Elf, they give a flat 9% increase to magicka regen. Assuming the average build in PVP has 2000 magicka regen, that comes out to 180 magicka regen and thats a conservative assumption for average magicka regen. Plus the 4% increase to elemental damage and extra 7% magicka they get compared to Argonians, you're simply trading damage for sustainability between the two. So lets stop pretending like Argonians extra 102 regen allows you to completely pack for damage without considering sustain sets

Read my next post just above yours as I explain just that. In a PvP fight having 2000 Regen is spread out over that 45 seconds. Fights are won and decided much of the time in a matter of <5 seconds. Being able to get 103 Magicka, Stamina, and Health Regen instantaneously makes considerably more difference than an extra 10% of just Magicka spread out over 45 seconds.

OK I agree with this point, but lets both agree that this one passive DOES NOT lets you neglect wearing a sustain set because that statement is just hyperbole. Now, while I do agree that instant regen can shift the directions of fights, thats just one aspect of gameplay. The extra damage you get from 4% elemental damage and 7% more magicka does also make a difference in a fight considering they both buff light attacks (which are now a large portion of sustained damage) and the damage to abilities. So as I said above, you're simply trading survivability for damage.

Except that it's not close to an even trade. Argonian is the only Magicka Race with extra health along with 10% bonus healing which is double any other race and the Resourceful passive is the only Recovery bonus that saves you when you get hit by a lot of burst damage or run out of Stamina/Magicka and need to recover in the next few seconds or die. Using Potions for Recovery allows you to time when you actually need the Recovery the most.

And Argonian might not let you completely give up having any sustain set equipped but it most certainly allows you to give up 1-2 Recovery/Cost Reduction Glyphs in place of Damage glyphs which negates most of that gain from the 4% elemental damage and 7% more Magicka you just listed.

Twohothardware wrote: »

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Argonian is best in slot by far in PvP for MagDK, MagNB, Magplar, and MagDen. The other races are not even close. A few more percent damage on races like Breton and High Elf doesn't make up for the 9% health, 10% healing, and way more sustain from Argonian using Potions that don't require you to have high Regen stats to benefit. Because of that on an Argonian you can stack more damage on the actual sets while other races you have to give up that damage for Recovery sets.

Can we stop pretending like the Argonian resourceful passive adds a lot to sustain? Looking at the math, it gives 4620 Health, Stamina and Magicka when you activate a potion. You can activate a potion every 45s. Thats works out to 4620/45 = 102 regen for each stat pool. Now looking at a High Elf, they give a flat 9% increase to magicka regen. Assuming the average build in PVP has 2000 magicka regen, that comes out to 180 magicka regen and thats a conservative assumption for average magicka regen. Plus the 4% increase to elemental damage and extra 7% magicka they get compared to Argonians, you're simply trading damage for sustainability between the two. So lets stop pretending like Argonians extra 102 regen allows you to completely pack for damage without considering sustain sets

Read my next post just above yours as I explain just that. In a PvP fight having 2000 Regen is spread out over that 45 seconds. Fights are won and decided much of the time in a matter of <5 seconds. Being able to get 103 Magicka, Stamina, and Health Regen instantaneously makes considerably more difference than an extra 10% of just Magicka spread out over 45 seconds.

OK I agree with this point, but lets both agree that this one passive DOES NOT lets you neglect wearing a sustain set because that statement is just hyperbole. Now, while I do agree that instant regen can shift the directions of fights, thats just one aspect of gameplay. The extra damage you get from 4% elemental damage and 7% more magicka does also make a difference in a fight considering they both buff light attacks (which are now a large portion of sustained damage) and the damage to abilities. So as I said above, you're simply trading survivability for damage.

Except that it's not close to an even trade. Argonian is the only Magicka Race with extra health along with 10% bonus healing which is double any other race and the Resourceful passive is the only Recovery bonus that saves you when you get hit by a lot of burst damage or run out of Stamina/Magicka and need to recover in the next few seconds or die.

And Argonian might not let you completely give up having any sustain set equipped but it most certainly allows you to give up 1-2 Recovery/Cost Reduction Glyphs in place of Damage glyphs which negates most of that gain from the 4% elemental damage and 7% more Magicka you just listed.

I don't know how you can justify that statement saying its an uneven trade as I can't think of a reliably way to compare the two. It simply boils down to play style and preference.

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Argonian is best in slot by far in PvP for MagDK, MagNB, Magplar, and MagDen. The other races are not even close. A few more percent damage on races like Breton and High Elf doesn't make up for the 9% health, 10% healing, and way more sustain from Argonian using Potions that don't require you to have high Regen stats to benefit. Because of that on an Argonian you can stack more damage on the actual sets while other races you have to give up that damage for Recovery sets.

Can we stop pretending like the Argonian resourceful passive adds a lot to sustain? Looking at the math, it gives 4620 Health, Stamina and Magicka when you activate a potion. You can activate a potion every 45s. Thats works out to 4620/45 = 102 regen for each stat pool. Now looking at a High Elf, they give a flat 9% increase to magicka regen. Assuming the average build in PVP has 2000 magicka regen, that comes out to 180 magicka regen and thats a conservative assumption for average magicka regen. Plus the 4% increase to elemental damage and extra 7% magicka they get compared to Argonians, you're simply trading damage for sustainability between the two. So lets stop pretending like Argonians extra 102 regen allows you to completely pack for damage without considering sustain sets

Not trying to be rude but you are wrong you can not count the return on a potion as an amount over time because it does not work that way it returns when the potion is used and there for does not amount to over time. Also please do not try to argue this cause you can not take a flat amount and make it show as overtime when it is a flat pay out to a recovery over time. The same could be said about the dps in the game but I am not going to argue that ether.

The problem is we have so many other bonuses to add to the races making them very lopsided so the 20% we get from cp added with the other racial bonuses sets some races to have better resources and stat pools while others can stack recovery the pool is ether to big for it to work right or its not worth the loss of damage. This is why so many complain is some races bonuses are to good over others that is why you ether set them all to an equal amount of 5% to 6% or flat number thats equal will better improve the choices or you remove them so there is nothing separating race at all.

Just remove all racial skills except the first passive. That was all races are equal for all builds.

Balance.

Twohothardware wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Argonians are not that OP. If it was, it was the Infused jewelry trait. Argonians were largely irrelevant race before. Even though the way they got their buffs were not what people really expected but it did make them more useful than before. And Argonians are not considered PvE DPS race. Not even close. Dunmer and Altmer are the go to DPS race with Argonians sometimes competing against Altmers and Breton for healing role. Tanking in PvE can be done with just about any race. Min/Max and self sustaining would put Argonians as tanks and heals on the top but that is exactly what ZOS seemed to have intended. Argonians as DPS race is not amazing. Khajiits for sure can use some buff in form of small max stamina boost or magicka rec boost even in place of health recovery because Khajiits are in no way indicated as a tanky race. Imperials are also too useless now where as it was overperforming with its Red Diamond passive before. Race balance should be left alone imho because I do jot want to see Argonians or Redguards fall out of use because ZOS never does anything in moderacy.

Argonians are very OP as Tanks in PvE, it's a night and day difference if you Race change from Nord/Imperial to Argonian. Argonian just makes it so much easier to sustain both Stamina and Magicka and the extra 10% healing is noticeable.

And in PvP even for an all out damage focused build Argonian has become the best for classes like StamDK, MagDK, MagNB, non gank StamNB, Magplar, and MagDen because of how you don't have to run a sustain focused set like you would on other Races and the 9% health and 10% extra healing makes you so much tankier. Then you add in the new Infused Jewelry with Potion cooldown glyphs which synergies perfectly.

As I said, Argonians are not the only tanks in PvE. I still see Nords, Imperials and even Khajiits. It just makes self sustaining easier when in tight situation. That is about it.

And I have not seen damage focused stam builds using Argonian unless they intend on tanking more than just dps. DPS builds are still mostly Altmers, Redguards, Orsimers, and Dunmers. Almost every time I see an Argonian is full tank or fully spec'd healer. Hell, even Bosmers are more common than DPS Argonians.

Aztlan wrote: »

Don't touch my khajiit health recovery. It's great for PvP. But a little stamina recovery would be nice.

Khajiit already has stam recovery stat. And health recovery is very useless unless you use Troll King.

isaiah_escobedob14_ESO wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Racial passives are fine, bar some minor tweaks.

If you want to be the "best" go play that race and class combo, but player skill will always be more important that choosing the perfect race and class combo.

It's not like you NEED to be an Argonian to tank, it just makes it easier. If you're not able to tank as a Nord/Imperial then your problems are probably not the Argonian passives.

Atleast from a pvp poc i heavily disagree with this statement for anything magica argonian related. the race outperforms any alternative significantly for anything using healing as their main defense.

It´s so good that a magica race gets picked for stamina builds. What stamina race have you ever seen picked for magica build not for RP reason but because it´s best in slot?

Meh. Needs changes.

Argonian is best in slot by far in PvP for MagDK, MagNB, Magplar, and MagDen. The other races are not even close. A few more percent damage on races like Breton and High Elf doesn't make up for the 9% health, 10% healing, and way more sustain from Argonian using Potions that don't require you to have high Regen stats to benefit. Because of that on an Argonian you can stack more damage on the actual sets while other races you have to give up that damage for Recovery sets.

Can we stop pretending like the Argonian resourceful passive adds a lot to sustain? Looking at the math, it gives 4620 Health, Stamina and Magicka when you activate a potion. You can activate a potion every 45s. Thats works out to 4620/45 = 102 regen for each stat pool. Now looking at a High Elf, they give a flat 9% increase to magicka regen. Assuming the average build in PVP has 2000 magicka regen, that comes out to 180 magicka regen and thats a conservative assumption for average magicka regen. Plus the 4% increase to elemental damage and extra 7% magicka they get compared to Argonians, you're simply trading damage for sustainability between the two. So lets stop pretending like Argonians extra 102 regen allows you to completely pack for damage without considering sustain sets

2000 magica regen :,D i don´t think most builds come even close to that.

Breton & Nord are the only two races that need immediate attention. Imperial belongs on the list as well - mostlty because Red Diamond did not scale outside of the soft cap era at all.

Nord needs a deeper effective stamina pool IMO. It's stamina doesn't go far; 6% cost redux in blocking & breakfree would be massive for the race. Whilst they wouldn't surpass anything in PVE they would at least have a niche place in PVE and PVP.

Breton is massively underwhelming. I would suggest making it the magicka "tank" race much like imperial being the stamina tank race.

Red Diamond needs to be looked at.

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Race is the least of this games worries I think. Probably one of the few things they have in a good spot right now. I think figuring out a way to seperate PvE and PvP is were they need to put their head. Too much nerf this nerf that buff this change that. This effects one side or the other negatively and is causing Zos more headachs then they can handle.

There are a lot of useless races. Sure the top tier races aren't OP in the same way that Sloads is OP, but the overall balance of the races is pretty abysmal.

Benemime wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

Remove the current racial passives entirely. The only racial passive we should have is the inherent racial passive, like the 1% AP bonus gain from breton, 1% gold bonus gain from imperials, and so on, because passives creates an imbalance, a go-to race, lack of freedom. Statiscally, high elves outnumbers every other race. I'm imperial sorc, my passives tells me that I had a heavy training as a warrior. Well, I haven't. I'm a mage, I didn't train to be a warrior.

Instead of the current passives, we should have a tab called "Specialization", between skill and champion tree tab, where we set our specialization and chose what we would like to raise: max magicka or max stamina for base energy resource (pick one), pick one defensive passive (max hp, spell/physical resistance, crit resist?, healing received, and so on), 1 recovery passive (like, magicka recovery, health recovery, decreased cost of stamina or magicka ability passive, and so on), offensive passive (spell/physical dmg, spell/physical crit, spell/phys. penetration, healing done), always picking one from each.

This covers everything, free us from bouding to races that we don't like, and actually would release us to be 100% better.

(i saw another fix for racial passives that was based on chosing the star that we were born under, but that would cause a lot of harm on character creation menu to new players in my opinion.

ZOS_GinaBruno ZOS_JessicaFolsom I got 10 agrees on my idea you should at least consider taking a look on racial passives by now

Wait we only need 10 agrees to get something considered? I have a lot of posts I need to go back and get seen by devs.

I was really disappointed in bretons, lorewise they are supposed to be ideal spellswords. One would assume they'd get passives to reflect that, so they are the go to race if you want to switch between mag and stamp dps on the fly, but no it had to be another one way ticket.
I mean it wouldn't even be that hard give them max stamp/mag and cost reduction for both.
Redguard and high elf would still be top dog.