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Are we ever going to get a response about stam in vCloudrest and vAS?
Azyle1
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Stam are pretty much prohibited form entering vAS + 3 and vCloudrest. And while I have often heard "ZOS didn't say that, the community says that"... its really the same thing because people aren't wanting stam because ZOS made two raids that are unkind to stam.
So... what? We just accept this? I still cannot fathom how content can exist that alienates a large portion on the playerbase.
So... what? We just accept this? I still cannot fathom how content can exist that alienates a large portion on the playerbase.
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MakoFore✭✭✭✭✭
✭no. Zos are not looking bak on any of their old content- that much we can tell from how they havent addressed any old trials since day one. there MO now is keep pumping out crates and DLC's, maintain order or semblance of crowd control with diversionary PR tactics- like the class rep system, but otherwise keep motoring ahead. seriously- theyre already in pre-production for 2020 content, they aint addressing anything old.8 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's called adaptation. Every class is capable of running magicka or stamina without much of an issue. If the new content favors a certain setup and you insist on stubbornly refusing to adapt, you have no one but yourself to blame when you get turned away from competitive groups. Stop asking for folks to conform to YOU and instead adjust your playstyle to fit the needs of the changing environment.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”6 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You have two options: play magicka or stay frustrated. I'm not sure if you've noticed but this entire game is pretty catered to magicka, just like Dark Souls is catered to melee. Some game developers just favor a particular play style over the other.7 -
Dextail✭✭✭I don’t even understand this argument.
If your good at stamina you can do vAS HM and vCR HM just fine. No your not gonna be able to run more than maybe 2 stamina. But you can do it, it’s not hard. Of course if your lacking awareness and ability to handle mechanics and dps like 90% of stamina players then GG l2p
ZOS isn’t locking you out of content, nor do guilds. There’s just a meta way to play, roll with the meta or be good enough to stand outside of it.
this is coming from a stamina main6 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭up until last week i was regularly running vAS on my stamplar. but since summerset, stam has taken such a massive hit that ive respecced to magika . over the past 12 months i must have lost 30% or so DPS
i wouldnt say stam isnt viable right now, id just say its becoming very harder and harder to play in a fun way.
2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was the only stamblade in vCR run but it wasn't a problem at all. Most likely it's a community thing like one said it's not viable and everyone jumped on this train, it's happens all the time. You can look into mother's sorrow inferno prices now;)
But score runs was always about 'meta' stuff and nothing have changed since. People want to make less runs and have more points so they exclude everything that have potential to fail.0 -
DirkRavenclaw✭✭✭✭I dont think that ZOS will adress this Issue, look at COH(CryptofHearts) If you are a magic User and have no Stam, you are pretty much f.... in Vet at the Endboss. My MAg Toons cant run it. Some Content is easier/more doable for Stam/some for Magic Users. Why do we get 8 Character Slots? Making Content for everybody is boring, see One Tamriel
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Master Crafter including Jewelry, i craft for Mats and Donation, always happy to help, if Im not in the Middle of PVP, i play since around 14 Months1 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's not healthy for your game when 7 of your dps in your raid-group are all running the same class.
As far as the OP, i completely agree. vScp and vfang lair HM are also much eaiser to complete on a magicka class than a stam class. You have to position yourself so perfectly and the fact that new content has so many AOEs means that stam constantly has to stop doing their rotation to avoid mechanics while mag builds can dodge those mechanics while still doing their full rotation from range. And then if you mess up, just pop a shield and you wont die unless it's a true oneshot.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You have two options: play magicka or stay frustrated. I'm not sure if you've noticed but this entire game is pretty catered to magicka, just like Dark Souls is catered to melee. Some game developers just favor a particular play style over the other.
...have you actually played Dark Souls? If you know what you're doing, magic is so hilariously overpowered as to be unwatchably cheesy. The only reason the Souls community eschews magic is because it trivializes most boss fights. Especially Pyromancy. (In Dark Souls 2, Hexing took that slot, if you're wondering.) Hell, the only FromSoft game where magic builds aren't completely game breaking is Bloodbourne, and that's because the "spells" are fueled by spending quicksilver bullets.
There is a real encounter design issue with vCR and vAS that, heavily disfavors melee DPS. This isn't, even, really, a Magicka/Stamina discussion. You cannot go into those fights with hard melee DPS builds. The irony here is, that's the real mirror for Dark Souls. Encounters designed to force melee to stay on their toes, far more, than ranged players, and as with Dark Souls, magic is far more viable at range than bows.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.Edited by idk on June 25, 2018 4:00PM0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
It's about how drastically easier it is on one instead of the other. As someone who has tried both stam and Mag in vAS, Mag is INFINITELY easier. You can actually dps when kiting lighting doing your full rotation and you have shield and can purge yourself from fire.
You can clear any content with stam but it is much easier on magikca for much of the new content and that shouldn't be the case.Edited by Apache_Kid on June 25, 2018 4:04PM5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
Actually, it is.
Read the first sentence in the OP. He clearly states Stam is pretty much prohibited. I merely proved that false since that video is the WF HM clear.
Edited by idk on June 25, 2018 4:10PM0 -
testd4n1✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
It's about how drastically easier it is on one instead of the other. As someone who has tried both stam and Mag in vAS, Mag is INFINITELY easier. You can actually dps when kiting lighting doing your full rotation and you have shield and can purge yourself from fire.
You can clear any content with stam but it is much easier on magikca for much of the new content and that shouldn't be the case.
I'm totally ok with magicka having an easier time with newer content, I always have been. That was the trade off for going stam before. You had so much more dps. That is not really existent anymore. the new 2pc bonus to 2h staffs made sure of that, while at the same time LA scaling off max mag/stam. In all, stam is currently not as viable as mag.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
It's about how drastically easier it is on one instead of the other. As someone who has tried both stam and Mag in vAS, Mag is INFINITELY easier. You can actually dps when kiting lighting doing your full rotation and you have shield and can purge yourself from fire.
You can clear any content with stam but it is much easier on magikca for much of the new content and that shouldn't be the case.
I'm totally ok with magicka having an easier time with newer content, I always have been. That was the trade off for going stam before. You had so much more dps. That is not really existent anymore. the new 2pc bonus to 2h staffs made sure of that, while at the same time LA scaling off max mag/stam. In all, stam is currently not as viable as mag.
@testd4n1 the 2h bonus changed little in this last patch. It was the changes to NMB and Sunder that made the biggest differences.
But that is for a different thread.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Apache_Kid wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
Actually, it is.
Read the first sentence in the OP. He clearly states Stam is pretty much prohibited. I merely proved that false since that video is the WF HM clear.
Prohibited in the sense that since using magicka is so much easier to play in such trials, that the extra damage from stam isnt worth it and therefore only magicka is played. People take the path of least resistance in completing content/getting scores. If there is no incentive to play stam, people won't.
You could complete all vet content with green gear, but would you?3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS actually responded to this issue recently!
Their response is below:
Trials
• Fine tuned Asylum Sanctorium so that you might be able to occasionally keep one Damage Dealer in melee range of St. Olms. Despite this, we recommend using a Magicka Nightblade
• Fine tuned Cloudrest to make sure you should be playing a Magicka Nightblade at all times
Dev Comment:
As intended, we are encouraging our players to try out Magicka Nightblades. Please play a Magicka Nightblade. Thank you!Edited by Vaoh on June 25, 2018 4:24PM24 -
Kuramas9tails✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS actually responded to this issue recently!
Their response is below:
Trials
• Fine tuned Asylum Sanctorium so that you might be able to occasionally keep one Damage Dealer in melee range of St. Olms. Despite this, we recommend using a Magicka Nightblade
• Fine tuned Cloudrest to make sure you should be playing a Magicka Nightblade at all times
Dev Comment:
As intended, we are encouraging our players to try out Magicka Nightblades. Please play a Magicka Nightblade. Thank you!
I had to click "Spoiler" 4 times and I thought it was just going to be an endless "spoiler" to be funny. I was actually disappointed there was actual text eventually. Funny nonetheless.Edited by Kuramas9tails on June 25, 2018 4:37PMYour friendly neighborhood crazy cat lady of ESO
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FOR THE QUEEN!
PS4/NA2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems like the topic is more about ranged vs melee than about Magicka vs Stamina. Melee magDK’s and magplars have all the same difficulties with movement and mechanics stopping their DPS rotation.
In vAS HM, Magicka do have the advantage of effective shields, so maybe a Bone Shield buff could fix this problem. vCR was an improvement in this imbalance, since vigor is more effective against some mechanics (oblivion damage).
As for ranged builds, I would like to see fully ranged stamina builds get buffed a little, maybe through bow passives. They mostly lack survivability, but the DPS is not great on bow-bow either.1 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos has been very heavy on encouraging the embracing of metas through:
1) Trying to ballance PvP and PvE the same. It can't be done and often results in glaring weeknesses in one or another such as Magica's utter failure to be able to move in PVP or stams failure to be able to do much in PVE fights that have large AOE mechanics. It is also notable that really only 3 of the 10 character class + resource combinations are really viable at range.
2) Hard content does not typically have a dps check but rather scales exponentially easier with more dps. This makes having the very best not only better scoring but much easier. Few fights use boss health for much in the way of triggering mechanics. Most is on a timer and so mechanics can be skipped or fewer faced with more dps. It is lazy programing and encourages meta. vSC comes to mind as the textbook example of this. A good dps group never gets the 1/3rd room statue mechanic and sometimes gets none of the 3 main mechanics so it's just ice stages and dps burn. Very easy. It is best for content to have a dps check / enrage coupled with mechanics that overlap more closely the higher the dps making it harder to get high scores not easier.
3) Bleeding edged hard stuff. The MoL and later content is an order of magnitude harder than anything before that. Without everything meta and typically a good measure of cheat engine use it is just not going to be completed.
4) Overlapping random mechanics. Little is planned and so a lot of overlapping mechanics from add stuns (often overlapping since no cc immunity in PvE), mechanics with different timers that can shift in relation to each other, and such, happen a lot. Shields can, to some extent, make up for what is simply bad programing.
It's just poor quality balance / fight design. The symptoms of bad current stam performance in PvE trials and poor magic performance in PvP are unlikely to change without better choices on the part of a few key people in the design process as well as probably more resources devoted to those things. Hopefully the new class reps will help but it is a very uphill battle.I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.3 -
DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »It's called adaptation. Every class is capable of running magicka or stamina without much of an issue. If the new content favors a certain setup and you insist on stubbornly refusing to adapt, you have no one but yourself to blame when you get turned away from competitive groups. Stop asking for folks to conform to YOU and instead adjust your playstyle to fit the needs of the changing environment.
well a group to refuse a certain type of damage is for one extremely stupid. plenty of groups do take stamina toons into vas and vcr as they do quite alot more damage than magicka do to the boss because magicka is forced down the portals.0 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
Actually, it is.
Read the first sentence in the OP. He clearly states Stam is pretty much prohibited. I merely proved that false since that video is the WF HM clear.
Prohibited in the sense that since using magicka is so much easier to play in such trials, that the extra damage from stam isnt worth it and therefore only magicka is played. People take the path of least resistance in completing content/getting scores. If there is no incentive to play stam, people won't.
You could complete all vet content with green gear, but would you?
I didn't reply to the first few people because you can clearly tell who the mag people are, haha.
It shouldn't be as unkind or as bad to stam as it is. That's what I am saying.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stam (melee) is and should be harder to play. The reward is a higher potential damage ceiling. We are talking about the two hardest PVE trials in the game at max difficulty level. Groups that are running them are always going to min/max the best they can, which is why 1-2 damage classes always dominate early clears. And people in those groups by and large have multiple characters they can play on. As groups get more comfortable, stamina players become more abundant. Same thing happened in VMOL and VHOF.2 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I know there's one or two people who got vAS Immortal Redeemer on a stamplar. It's not uncommon for experienced groups to run one or two stamina in vAS HM, with stamplar being a popular option (due to their self-purge and PotL).
And I also know someone who got Immortal Redeemer on a Redguard magblade (i.e., a stamblade in a temporary magicka spec, so that's another option).
As someone pointed out, the problem isn't magicka vs. stamina, but ranged vs. melee, since nobody brings mag DKs to those trials either. And at the core of that problem is that interesting and difficult mechanics often involve a lot of movement and positioning. If you make a fight "melee-friendly", you are also restricting the kinds of mechanics that you can design, and you get boring and dumb fights like the Assembly General.
The better solution, then, would be for ranged stamina to be more viable--i.e., if bow/bow builds could be competitive.
Also, I think there's room for a few stamina in vCloudrest HM as well. They probably won't be very good for the shadow realm of course, but the amount of movement up top isn't that much, and esp. if you are doing +3 or +1/+2 with fire, you want the group to be mostly stacked most of the time anyway and minimize the amount of people running loose. I think at the moment, most groups are still learning and getting used to Cloudrest, so they "play it safe".Edited by code65536 on June 25, 2018 5:36PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
It's not about whether or not you can do it.
Actually, it is.
Read the first sentence in the OP. He clearly states Stam is pretty much prohibited. I merely proved that false since that video is the WF HM clear.
Prohibited in the sense that since using magicka is so much easier to play in such trials, that the extra damage from stam isnt worth it and therefore only magicka is played. People take the path of least resistance in completing content/getting scores. If there is no incentive to play stam, people won't.
You could complete all vet content with green gear, but would you?
The question I placed in bold is absurd and clearly intended as a distraction.
I merely took what the OP is stating at face value and proved it false. Granted, most players are not near as good as the person in the PoV of the video I posted.
Code gave a great response in the post above.
Edited by idk on June 25, 2018 5:33PM0 -
adeptusminor✭✭✭✭DirkRavenclaw wrote: »I dont think that ZOS will adress this Issue, look at COH(CryptofHearts) If you are a magic User and have no Stam, you are pretty much f.... in Vet at the Endboss. My MAg Toons cant run it. Some Content is easier/more doable for Stam/some for Magic Users. Why do we get 8 Character Slots? Making Content for everybody is boring, see One Tamriel
Hm, that's the first I've heard of this, I'm a mag char with something like 10k stam, I run trap, and I don't have any issues in any of the vet dungeons on hard mode. What specifically is giving you problems in vCoH?Edited by adeptusminor on June 25, 2018 5:58PM1 -
ResTandRespeC✭✭✭✭Vercingetorix wrote: »It's called adaptation. Every class is capable of running magicka or stamina without much of an issue. If the new content favors a certain setup and you insist on stubbornly refusing to adapt, you have no one but yourself to blame when you get turned away from competitive groups. Stop asking for folks to conform to YOU and instead adjust your playstyle to fit the needs of the changing environment.
Sooo what your saying is to basically turn into magic lmao. If your talking about something like running a shield on a stam toon or being a hybrid or something thats just not how this game works unfortunately. If you brought a team full of stam builds with enough magic to have a decent sized shield into vAS HM i'm pretty sure it wouldn't go over well. You need a pretty large amount of damage to ensure the mini bosses don't enrage and wipe your group, which you'd lose out on from stacking magic instead of stam.
0 -
ResTandRespeC✭✭✭✭WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
One stamplar is a lot different then a team of half or more stamina. The stamplar isn't there to do top notch damage, it's there to debuff the target so that the other dps can do more damage.6 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ResTandRespeC wrote: »WF vAS HM clear from a stamina dps PoV so title debunked.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NZusdKYsY
Edit: so stamina can clear vAS HM. Obviously if any dps is dying to much they have room for improvement that needs to be met to run content at this level. That goes for stamina and magicka.
One stamplar is a lot different then a team of half or more stamina. The stamplar isn't there to do top notch damage, it's there to debuff the target so that the other dps can do more damage.
Again, merely pointed out OPs statement was false.
I suggest you read the post from Code for the best and clearest assessment in this thread.0 -
ManwithBeard9✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wasn't there a time frame of like 6 months where stam dps was by far and above the better option for trials?0 -
SirMewser✭✭✭✭✭You have two options: play magicka or stay frustrated. I'm not sure if you've noticed but this entire game is pretty catered to magicka, just like Dark Souls is catered to melee. Some game developers just favor a particular play style over the other.
This... ^
So much of the game's content is being shoe holed into a particular setup, diversity just isn't allowed, doing so would penalize you and your group.
We are far due a balance patch.
1