zyk wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sure you can play solo, but if you think you are going to play Rambo at hit and run on a group I'm in your going down.
Attack my friends you pay the price no matter what OP cheese build you may be wearing. That's right, the ones that complain the most about an overpowered build are using one themselves.

Not relevant to the discussion. I have no idea who you are or how good you are. That's not the point at all. This is a discussion about Sload's and the specific impact it has to solo players because how it affects counterplay.

But you do know how good or bad the players using sload are?

That's what bothers me in a lot of these threads, "potatoes are now killing me!". How the hell do you know if the player is a potato? If I die to @Lexxypwns or a Potato with sload, the out come is the same, so how am I able to determine if it's not @Lexxypwns using sload?

And don't give me, "I've played x potatoes before" believe it or not, players can improve

Waffennacht wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sure you can play solo, but if you think you are going to play Rambo at hit and run on a group I'm in your going down.
Attack my friends you pay the price no matter what OP cheese build you may be wearing. That's right, the ones that complain the most about an overpowered build are using one themselves.

Not relevant to the discussion. I have no idea who you are or how good you are. That's not the point at all. This is a discussion about Sload's and the specific impact it has to solo players because how it affects counterplay.

But you do know how good or bad the players using sload are?

That's what bothers me in a lot of these threads, "potatoes are now killing me!". How the hell do you know if the player is a potato? If I die to @Lexxypwns or a Potato with sload, the out come is the same, so how am I able to determine if it's not @Lexxypwns using sload?

And don't give me, "I've played x potatoes before" believe it or not, players can improve

That’s exactly why it needs a nerf.. with sloads there’s no way to tell! That’s the whole problem lol

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sure you can play solo, but if you think you are going to play Rambo at hit and run on a group I'm in your going down.
Attack my friends you pay the price no matter what OP cheese build you may be wearing. That's right, the ones that complain the most about an overpowered build are using one themselves.

Not relevant to the discussion. I have no idea who you are or how good you are. That's not the point at all. This is a discussion about Sload's and the specific impact it has to solo players because how it affects counterplay.

Yes it counters your play style as it should. No one person in a broken build should be able to take on a group of players without having a counter. Go 1v1 or play battlefields if you want small scale. They screwed up and made Sload's stack, they will fix it.

There are several counters especially to 1vX.

Curse stacking, PotL/ Purifying, poison stacking, bleeds+ sloads, siphoner, defile stacking, shieldbreaker and on and on

There are so many Xv1 tools in this game that you can wreck any single 1vX player without leaving him a single chance. It's often enough to use one of the things above and ruin the solo players day

And every single one of those have had the same people trying to get them removed as well.

Yes because they scale exponentially with the amount of people outnumbering the target.

If you are hit by frags in a 1v1 or 1vX it will deal the same damage, also your own frag will work just as good in the 1v1 as it will perform in the 1vX.


If we use the following 3 things now to show how they work better in a Xv1 than in a 1v1 it may be more clear to you why they are a problem.

PotL: in a 1v1 the caster has to provide 100% of the damage and has a harder time finding an offensive window to maximise the damage output

In a Xv1 every additional enemy reduces the damage one individual has to apply to reach the full burst damage of an unblockable and undodgeable skill, this also works if the caster is a healbot that provides 0 other offensive pressure.

In a 1vX PotL makes a turn for the worst, your offensive window is highly limited and requires focusing one single opponent with all your damage.

Poisons:
In a 1v1 your poison will be able to proc every 10 seconds on the same enemy and vise versa.

In a Xv1 you can be affected by any single poison effect in this game with absolutely no cooldown

And in a 1vX you can only apply the poison once every 10 seconds to one single enemy reducing it's overall effectiveness massively


Curse: in a 1v1 it works the same for everyone, both players can be affected by one curse at the time reducing their health on every explosion by being undodgeable, unblockable and uncloakable

In a Xv1 the solo player can be oneshotted with the only counterplay being purge (=/= not reliable counterplay for 8/10 Stacks) if you stack x amounts of curses you can kill any player with Y health as you just have to bring them down to 20% of their health for mage's wrath to finish the job.

In a 1vX curse works like poisons you can only apply it to one single player at the time reducing it's overall effectiveness drastically with the amount of enemies you face, this is fine however as you can actively choose the target and there is ofc a punishment towards your damage and healing in a 1vX compared to the X

zyk wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Player skill isn't an argument.

The skill of the player is relevant because it's so easy to apply. Some proc sets require a certain kind of damage, a specific ability or even a combination of abilities. Some proc sets have a low uptime.

Sload has the most basic requirement possible in addition to being very strong. This must all be considered in the context of the stated goal ZOS has to raise the floor and lower the ceiling -- in the words of Rich Lambert.

It is also very easy to obtain.

Playing solo was already bad enough because of Wizard's Riposte and Durok's Bane which are everywhere. Now added to constant Minor Maim and near constant Major Defile, there is Sload's Semblance countering cloak, block and shields.

Well I only solo Cyrodiil and PuG BGs. But my personal experience isn't an argument either.

Imo, the reason Why a set makes a "potato" able to kill a "pro" is the actual reason for a change.

Like the potato kill is the symptom not the disease, and a player's skill is Very subjective, especially when coming at it from a third party perspective. - I have no idea if your (not you you, but as in anyone) analysis of another player is accurate, non-biased, and complete. We would have to assume that your description of events is 100% accurate, which I won't do.

I'll also point out, using correct gear is like one of the biggest component of this game.

Like what makes a potato to me? Someone using the wrong gear, wrong weapons etc.

If someone slots durok, sload and skoria, that, to me, kinda automatically disqualifies a potato comment lol

I wish there was a campaign that didnt alow for taking dmg from equipment aka proccsets. Oldschool stats and your keyboard vs the same.

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sure you can play solo, but if you think you are going to play Rambo at hit and run on a group I'm in your going down.
Attack my friends you pay the price no matter what OP cheese build you may be wearing. That's right, the ones that complain the most about an overpowered build are using one themselves.

Not relevant to the discussion. I have no idea who you are or how good you are. That's not the point at all. This is a discussion about Sload's and the specific impact it has to solo players because how it affects counterplay.

Yes it counters your play style as it should. No one person in a broken build should be able to take on a group of players without having a counter. Go 1v1 or play battlefields if you want small scale. They screwed up and made Sload's stack, they will fix it.

There are several counters especially to 1vX.

Curse stacking, PotL/ Purifying, poison stacking, bleeds+ sloads, siphoner, defile stacking, shieldbreaker and on and on

There are so many Xv1 tools in this game that you can wreck any single 1vX player without leaving him a single chance. It's often enough to use one of the things above and ruin the solo players day

And every single one of those have had the same people trying to get them removed as well.

Yes because they scale exponentially with the amount of people outnumbering the target.

If you are hit by frags in a 1v1 or 1vX it will deal the same damage, also your own frag will work just as good in the 1v1 as it will perform in the 1vX.


If we use the following 3 things now to show how they work better in a Xv1 than in a 1v1 it may be more clear to you why they are a problem.

PotL: in a 1v1 the caster has to provide 100% of the damage and has a harder time finding an offensive window to maximise the damage output

In a Xv1 every additional enemy reduces the damage one individual has to apply to reach the full burst damage of an unblockable and undodgeable skill, this also works if the caster is a healbot that provides 0 other offensive pressure.

In a 1vX PotL makes a turn for the worst, your offensive window is highly limited and requires focusing one single opponent with all your damage.

Poisons:
In a 1v1 your poison will be able to proc every 10 seconds on the same enemy and vise versa.

In a Xv1 you can be affected by any single poison effect in this game with absolutely no cooldown

And in a 1vX you can only apply the poison once every 10 seconds to one single enemy reducing it's overall effectiveness massively


Curse: in a 1v1 it works the same for everyone, both players can be affected by one curse at the time reducing their health on every explosion by being undodgeable, unblockable and uncloakable

In a Xv1 the solo player can be oneshotted with the only counterplay being purge (=/= not reliable counterplay for 8/10 Stacks) if you stack x amounts of curses you can kill any player with Y health as you just have to bring them down to 20% of their health for mage's wrath to finish the job.

In a 1vX curse works like poisons you can only apply it to one single player at the time reducing it's overall effectiveness drastically with the amount of enemies you face, this is fine however as you can actively choose the target and there is ofc a punishment towards your damage and healing in a 1vX compared to the X

So what you guys want is that damage produced by grouped X should be no more than damage produced by 1 against a single player.
See I can't wrap my head around how a game can ever be balanced for small scale and large scale at the same time without getting rid of CP and all status boosters - sets, poisons, potions etc.
And apparently neither can game developers.

No. we want damage that has more counter play and takes skill to use. damage that becomes unavoidable or can't be mitigated will always favor the Zerg or the player that's less skillful. A lot of the skills listed leave very little counterplay for the individual if they are outnumbered making the game not fun or rewarding for the solo player. I been seeing the same bad players for years they haven't gotten any better they are still slow with their animations, they still haven't learned good positioning or when to reset a fight, but they are harder to 1vX because the sheer amount of pressure players can apply from pressing one button is getting ridiculous. They don't even have to use skills anymore to apply de-buffs to players because the sets do it for them. resource poisons proc sets abilities like curse or potl are just rewarding outnumbering your opponent way too much

.

thankyourat wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sure you can play solo, but if you think you are going to play Rambo at hit and run on a group I'm in your going down.
Attack my friends you pay the price no matter what OP cheese build you may be wearing. That's right, the ones that complain the most about an overpowered build are using one themselves.

Not relevant to the discussion. I have no idea who you are or how good you are. That's not the point at all. This is a discussion about Sload's and the specific impact it has to solo players because how it affects counterplay.

Yes it counters your play style as it should. No one person in a broken build should be able to take on a group of players without having a counter. Go 1v1 or play battlefields if you want small scale. They screwed up and made Sload's stack, they will fix it.

There are several counters especially to 1vX.

Curse stacking, PotL/ Purifying, poison stacking, bleeds+ sloads, siphoner, defile stacking, shieldbreaker and on and on

There are so many Xv1 tools in this game that you can wreck any single 1vX player without leaving him a single chance. It's often enough to use one of the things above and ruin the solo players day

And every single one of those have had the same people trying to get them removed as well.

Yes because they scale exponentially with the amount of people outnumbering the target.

If you are hit by frags in a 1v1 or 1vX it will deal the same damage, also your own frag will work just as good in the 1v1 as it will perform in the 1vX.


If we use the following 3 things now to show how they work better in a Xv1 than in a 1v1 it may be more clear to you why they are a problem.

PotL: in a 1v1 the caster has to provide 100% of the damage and has a harder time finding an offensive window to maximise the damage output

In a Xv1 every additional enemy reduces the damage one individual has to apply to reach the full burst damage of an unblockable and undodgeable skill, this also works if the caster is a healbot that provides 0 other offensive pressure.

In a 1vX PotL makes a turn for the worst, your offensive window is highly limited and requires focusing one single opponent with all your damage.

Poisons:
In a 1v1 your poison will be able to proc every 10 seconds on the same enemy and vise versa.

In a Xv1 you can be affected by any single poison effect in this game with absolutely no cooldown

And in a 1vX you can only apply the poison once every 10 seconds to one single enemy reducing it's overall effectiveness massively


Curse: in a 1v1 it works the same for everyone, both players can be affected by one curse at the time reducing their health on every explosion by being undodgeable, unblockable and uncloakable

In a Xv1 the solo player can be oneshotted with the only counterplay being purge (=/= not reliable counterplay for 8/10 Stacks) if you stack x amounts of curses you can kill any player with Y health as you just have to bring them down to 20% of their health for mage's wrath to finish the job.

In a 1vX curse works like poisons you can only apply it to one single player at the time reducing it's overall effectiveness drastically with the amount of enemies you face, this is fine however as you can actively choose the target and there is ofc a punishment towards your damage and healing in a 1vX compared to the X

So what you guys want is that damage produced by grouped X should be no more than damage produced by 1 against a single player.
See I can't wrap my head around how a game can ever be balanced for small scale and large scale at the same time without getting rid of CP and all status boosters - sets, poisons, potions etc.
And apparently neither can game developers.

No. we want damage that has more counter play and takes skill to use. damage that becomes unavoidable or can't be mitigated will always favor the Zerg or the player that's less skillful. A lot of the skills listed leave very little counterplay for the individual if they are outnumbered making the game not fun or rewarding for the solo player. I been seeing the same bad players for years they haven't gotten any better they are still slow with their animations, they still haven't learned good positioning or when to reset a fight, but they are harder to 1vX because the sheer amount of pressure players can apply from pressing one button is getting ridiculous. They don't even have to use skills anymore to apply de-buffs to players because the sets do it for them. resource poisons proc sets abilities like curse or potl are just rewarding outnumbering your opponent way too much

If a skilled player creates a setup to work with and benefit sloads, he/she can cause some serious hurt for the scrublings

Any how exactly does Sload's accomplish your vision of encouraging multiplayer gameplay? By getting people to spam light attacks in a zerg instead of individually? That's some complicated teamwork right there.

Multiplayer dynamics emerge when players understand the strengths and limitations of their class and build, and group with other specs that synergise and fill in the gaps.

Teaching new players that they can win fights by spamming light attacks with the occasional snipe/poison inject results in them never learning the intricacies of their class and build. It leads to mindless zerging, and that is not genuine "multiplayer".

Bleed builds with especially Masters weapons as well as Sorc Rune Cage burst are both more OP than Sloads. Sloads is only overly strong in comparison when u have a group of people proc'ing it and a lot of the people complaining would probably die when outnumbered no matter what that group is using, your just fixating on the new Sloads damage on kill recap.