Solution to rune cage problem.

Vapirko · June 2018

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Rune cage needs a range debuff, like fossilize received. That's all. Cheers.

DKs are melee, Sorcs need to be able to fight at range. If you want to make us melee players, give us a powerful melee spammable like Whip!

You shouldn't be able to blow people up a mile away because of an OP stun. It's dumb, I actually feel it's more of a blight in battlegrounds than sloads. BG's feels like it's pretty much all ranged magic builds(the best groups) with the odd solo NB running around.

You shouldn’t be able to gap close from a mile away with a free snare on top as well. Yet you can. Range is an illusion if you don’t have LoS.

Collusion illusion. I don't think you can compare Rune cage to a gap closer skill. You can compare it too another CC skill. You could compare a gap closer skill with another gap closer skill. Rune cage is OP versus other CC skills.

But to your point of you shouldn't be able to gap close from a mile away, even though a completely different topic, I can agree.

I would take rune cage over a gap closer personally.

Gap closers are fine. As is they are barely used by anyone these days with the exception of NBs. The 2h gap closer is probably one of the most under used skill right now. Theyve already been nerfed to hell.

Vapirko · June 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Rune cage needs a range debuff, like fossilize received. That's all. Cheers.

DKs are melee, Sorcs need to be able to fight at range. If you want to make us melee players, give us a powerful melee spammable like Whip!

A real hot.

As for rune prison, just make it dodgeable, and maybe a 3.5 second stun that brings it in line with skills like javelin which features a shorter stun but also has the knock back which consumes a decent amount of time. I remember the magicka templar, purifying light, meteor, toppling charge, jabs to be pretty deadly as well. The main issue there being the general way templar skills are buggy. Otherwise it was a very deadly burst. And magicka NBs have assassins will, which is far more powerful than even frags, on my mag sorc Ive been getting hit with 14k assassins will which far more than even meteor ever hits for. Not to mention its now easier to proc than ever. That and an incap strike and even on a magblade its gg. I don't honestly see the sorc burst as being a whole lot more deadly than other range magicka classes. So it seems like a couple of simple changes to rune prison, a duration decrease and making it dodgeable, would easily bring it in line.

Nyladreas · June 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Do people not remember when Cyrodiil was dominated by magicka sorcs? And again, without an unblockbale cc what exactly do you propose to do against mag DKs and/or permablock builds?

I'd just remove this perma block BS from PVP altogether.

Feanor · June 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Rune cage needs a range debuff, like fossilize received. That's all. Cheers.

DKs are melee, Sorcs need to be able to fight at range. If you want to make us melee players, give us a powerful melee spammable like Whip!

You shouldn't be able to blow people up a mile away because of an OP stun. It's dumb, I actually feel it's more of a blight in battlegrounds than sloads. BG's feels like it's pretty much all ranged magic builds(the best groups) with the odd solo NB running around.

You shouldn’t be able to gap close from a mile away with a free snare on top as well. Yet you can. Range is an illusion if you don’t have LoS.

Collusion illusion. I don't think you can compare Rune cage to a gap closer skill. You can compare it too another CC skill. You could compare a gap closer skill with another gap closer skill. Rune cage is OP versus other CC skills.

But to your point of you shouldn't be able to gap close from a mile away, even though a completely different topic, I can agree.

I would take rune cage over a gap closer personally.

Gap closers are fine. As is they are barely used by anyone these days with the exception of NBs. The 2h gap closer is probably one of the most under used skill right now. Theyve already been nerfed to hell.

They still do their job excellent, the only thing that’s missing is the absurd damage they once had. Yes, people are slotting a higher damage skill instead now and just go with FM and Major Expedition because that helps their defensive game as well. That doesn’t change the fact that gap closing - either via skill or simply sprinting with major expedition - still renders range a non factor unless you can reposition to LoS quickly.

That has nothing and everything to do with CC skills. Because the range gets brought up constantly as issue for the Sorc style. OMG the Sorc can kill me in 0.274 seconds from Dragonclaw when I’m in Fare! In reality a Sorc who fails to maintain distance is a dead Sorc quickly, and the game makes it very easy still to cover the distance instantly. The astonishing thing is people keep playing the range card in balance discussions as if this was a valid argument. In open world Cyrodiil, this is not the case.

rimmidimdim · June 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I find the duration long and sometimes cannot break free instantly. I havent noticed the damage on break free, how mcuh is the tooltip? I understand the range as thats a sorcs forte but it makes escape hard in medium armor.

Ya this happens too, often. But not just rune cage, other CC's as well for me anyway.

Takes-No-Prisoner · June 2018

OdinForge wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Just give frags it's 10% dmg back and it's stun. Thank you.

Current no counter-play rune cage
Goes through block

Goes through dodge

Cannot be reflected

Does a sizeable amount of damage when broken

High range

Boring to use as it literally hand holds you through burst combos and punishes without counter-play

I have a question about the bolded sentence here.

Had an encounter with a Sorc using the Rune Cage unblockable set up this morning, and I was wondering why I lived through it. When I broke the cage as he was pressing the buttons to meteor me, it seemed like it did not damage me as much.

By the time I CC broke it, I was on 2h GS with Rally / Strike Armor active and blocking the meteor.

What did the Sorc do wrong? It should have killed me. Toon I was playing was Redguard StamDK 25.5k health and 32k Stamina. Gear: 7th Legion/Shackle/Bloodspawn(I dont remember Blood procing)

Feanor · June 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Just give frags it's 10% dmg back and it's stun. Thank you.

Current no counter-play rune cage
Goes through block

Goes through dodge

Cannot be reflected

Does a sizeable amount of damage when broken

High range

Boring to use as it literally hand holds you through burst combos and punishes without counter-play

I have a question about the bolded sentence here.

Had an encounter with a Sorc using the Rune Cage unblockable set up this morning, and I was wondering why I lived through it. When I broke the cage as he was pressing the buttons to meteor me, it seemed like it did not damage me as much.

By the time I CC broke it, I was on 2h GS with Rally / Strike Armor active and blocking the meteor.

What did the Sorc do wrong? It should have killed me. Toon I was playing was Redguard StamDK 25.5k health and 32k Stamina. Gear: 7th Legion/Shackle/Bloodspawn(I dont remember Blood procing)

It doesn’t hit that hard really, around 2 to 4k depending on the build. If you could block the Meteor then that’s why you lived and where the Sorc screwed up.

Biro123 · June 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Just give frags it's 10% dmg back and it's stun. Thank you.

Current no counter-play rune cage
Goes through block

Goes through dodge

Cannot be reflected

Does a sizeable amount of damage when broken

High range

Boring to use as it literally hand holds you through burst combos and punishes without counter-play

I have a question about the bolded sentence here.

Had an encounter with a Sorc using the Rune Cage unblockable set up this morning, and I was wondering why I lived through it. When I broke the cage as he was pressing the buttons to meteor me, it seemed like it did not damage me as much.

By the time I CC broke it, I was on 2h GS with Rally / Strike Armor active and blocking the meteor.

What did the Sorc do wrong? It should have killed me. Toon I was playing was Redguard StamDK 25.5k health and 32k Stamina. Gear: 7th Legion/Shackle/Bloodspawn(I dont remember Blood procing)

It only kills low-passive-defence, low-HP medium rolly-poly builds. With 25k health and heavy armour, you're fine. Also sounds like he mistimed it though..

I'm running the similar stuff on my stamplar - 7th/shackle/troll-king - but with lava-foot drink, so only 22k health. The combo doesn't kill me.
What does is getting caged when there are multiple attackers targeting me... but in that scenario it was always only a matter of time till a cc got through anyways...

Honestly, all the upset is from light-armour builds - only they pretend its a problem for everyone.

OdinForge · June 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Just give frags it's 10% dmg back and it's stun. Thank you.

Current no counter-play rune cage
Goes through block

Goes through dodge

Cannot be reflected

Does a sizeable amount of damage when broken

High range

Boring to use as it literally hand holds you through burst combos and punishes without counter-play

I have a question about the bolded sentence here.

Had an encounter with a Sorc using the Rune Cage unblockable set up this morning, and I was wondering why I lived through it. When I broke the cage as he was pressing the buttons to meteor me, it seemed like it did not damage me as much.

By the time I CC broke it, I was on 2h GS with Rally / Strike Armor active and blocking the meteor.

What did the Sorc do wrong? It should have killed me. Toon I was playing was Redguard StamDK 25.5k health and 32k Stamina. Gear: 7th Legion/Shackle/Bloodspawn(I dont remember Blood procing)

I say sizeable because the damage of rune cage is really going to depend on build type. If the sorc is building for sustain or a well rounded setup, rune cage won't hit as hard as someone building for max damage at the cost of sustain. The problem with rune cage is how easy it is to setup combos.

Sounds like the sorc both didn't have enough damage to cheese you, your build seems sturdy enough to survive the combo. And the sorc should be casting meteor before rune cage, if you're already cc breaking cage before meteor hits you the sorc didn't do the combo right.

ak_pvp · June 2018

Irylia wrote: »

Seems like an odd buff, I mean sorc frags stunning?
*every new player ever*
But let’s keep complaining about Rc.

Frag hits hard against the bowtard running full divines. It hits for a pitiful 3-6k even as a crit vs heavy and it’s not a spammable.
Surprise attack hits for a consistent 5-7

That is because stamblades can build ridiculous damage by just clutching on cloak for much defense, not because frags itself is weak.

Nyladreas wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Do people not remember when Cyrodiil was dominated by magicka sorcs? And again, without an unblockbale cc what exactly do you propose to do against mag DKs and/or permablock builds?

I'd just remove this perma block BS from PVP altogether.

You (and parent comment) get good and remember that permablock is dead, snares, expensive, dots, already unblockable abilities etc. If it should bring down block, it should bring down shields too right?

Lrn 2 keep some pressure, some small dots, lrn to use things like mines, pets or atro, and don't ask for OP bs.

mursie · June 2018

is anyone awake during BG's? is it not self evident at this point that sorcs (mag) are very much OVER-performing in bg's since summerset?

is this not obvious to everyone? or is this just one person's hyperbole?

Micah_Bayer · June 2018

mursie wrote: »

is anyone awake during BG's? is it not self evident at this point that sorcs (mag) are very much OVER-performing in bg's since summerset?

is this not obvious to everyone? or is this just one person's hyperbole?

Just because the execute performs well doesn't mean sorcerer is op..It just means they are kill stealers.

Apache_Kid · June 2018

mursie wrote: »

is anyone awake during BG's? is it not self evident at this point that sorcs (mag) are very much OVER-performing in bg's since summerset?

is this not obvious to everyone? or is this just one person's hyperbole?

Sorcs in general are over-performing in BGs. Stam Sorc is the strongest build in BGs by a mile and takes almost no skill. Cage, dawny, spin to win. That's it.

Edit: at least magsorcs have a carefully timed burst rotation they have to do.

Takes-No-Prisoner · June 2018

Thanks for the replies all. That instance was the first time I've actually been a target to that combo. Gave me some things to think about.

React · June 2018

Agreed with OP, change frags back to their old iteration with the extra damage and CC, then remove cage's damage on break free and reduce the CC duration back to (3.5?) seconds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

Agreed with OP, change frags back to their old iteration with the extra damage and CC, then remove cage's damage on break free and reduce the CC duration back to (3.5?) seconds.

That probably wouldn't totally upset your average sorc, but then nobody would run rune cage. I am fine with this skill as is, yes I play sorc in PVP (I also play mDK stamwarden, mageblade, and a few others when the mode strikes me), and yes I have died to it, but if it is to be nerfed, i think the damage could be toned down, and the range could be as well. If there is no damage aspect to it, it wont get slotted, which would be a shame. If the range was nerfed to true melee, then it wouldnt balance well with the rest of the tool kit.

The answer is obvious, a few subtle tweaks. Take 10-20% of the damage, and knock the range down to 17-20 meters. What will happen, on the other hand, is the people while B*#CH and moan until ZOS nerfs it right off peoples bars, and people will cry about another sorc skill.

bardx86 · June 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Just give frags it's 10% dmg back and it's stun. Thank you.

Current no counter-play rune cage
Goes through block

Goes through dodge

Cannot be reflected

Does a sizeable amount of damage when broken

High range

Boring to use as it literally hand holds you through burst combos and punishes without counter-play

I have a question about the bolded sentence here.

Had an encounter with a Sorc using the Rune Cage unblockable set up this morning, and I was wondering why I lived through it. When I broke the cage as he was pressing the buttons to meteor me, it seemed like it did not damage me as much.

By the time I CC broke it, I was on 2h GS with Rally / Strike Armor active and blocking the meteor.

What did the Sorc do wrong? It should have killed me. Toon I was playing was Redguard StamDK 25.5k health and 32k Stamina. Gear: 7th Legion/Shackle/Bloodspawn(I dont remember Blood procing)

Basically a bad Sorc. You meteor before cage not after.

bardx86 · June 2018

Its really a hard thing to balance. Sorcs are so all or nothing in their rotation. If the rotation doesn't kill you then with how healing works you can be back to full health before they can damage you again. Sorcs pressure is also very low. I'd be more inclined to just remove the damage from cage all together and move that damage to curse. A higher damage curse would add a bit of pressure that we need. Currently no-one really even cares if they have a curse on them.

Juhasow · June 2018

Solution is simple. Bring it back to the previous state. 2,5 sec stun and dmg only if enemie dont break free. In current state of the game it would be still more then decent stun.

Drakkdjinn · June 2018

Is this a rune cage issue or an issue with how *** cc' break mechanics are since summerset i wonder?

Emma_Overload · June 2018

bardx86 wrote: »

Its really a hard thing to balance. Sorcs are so all or nothing in their rotation. If the rotation doesn't kill you then with how healing works you can be back to full health before they can damage you again. Sorcs pressure is also very low. I'd be more inclined to just remove the damage from cage all together and move that damage to curse. A higher damage curse would add a bit of pressure that we need. Currently no-one really even cares if they have a curse on them.

It might seem that way, but believe me Nightblades care if they are Cursed!

Any buffs to Curse need to happen very carefully and quietly.

bardx86 · June 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Its really a hard thing to balance. Sorcs are so all or nothing in their rotation. If the rotation doesn't kill you then with how healing works you can be back to full health before they can damage you again. Sorcs pressure is also very low. I'd be more inclined to just remove the damage from cage all together and move that damage to curse. A higher damage curse would add a bit of pressure that we need. Currently no-one really even cares if they have a curse on them.

It might seem that way, but believe me Nightblades care if they are Cursed!

Any buffs to Curse need to happen very carefully and quietly.

Ok OK, but let be honest no-one cares about NB"s :P

rimmidimdim · June 2018

bardx86 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Its really a hard thing to balance. Sorcs are so all or nothing in their rotation. If the rotation doesn't kill you then with how healing works you can be back to full health before they can damage you again. Sorcs pressure is also very low. I'd be more inclined to just remove the damage from cage all together and move that damage to curse. A higher damage curse would add a bit of pressure that we need. Currently no-one really even cares if they have a curse on them.

It might seem that way, but believe me Nightblades care if they are Cursed!

Any buffs to Curse need to happen very carefully and quietly.

Ok OK, but let be honest no-one cares about NB"s :P

I'm a NB and curse is not a major issue I would say. It's a good skill and something you have to be aware of but not op. I said it before and I'll say it again, this topic is about rune cage, I think the range of the skill needs a debuff. Otherwise I believe it to be fine. Cheers.

Berenhir · June 2018

Make rune cage a DoT that deals X magic damage over 8 seconds and roots everybody 6m around the target three times for 2sec - once on impact, once after 4 seconds, once after 8 seconds. DoT can only be applied to one target.

Give frag back the stun and make streak stun unblockable again.

Cut the return of absorb magicka in half.

Killset · June 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Vaoh

We have reached a forum hysteria where every Sorc skill is considered OP. I’m waiting for the nerf calls to Bound Aegis because it has four effects (4!!!!!) while costing only 4,000 magicka.

It’s pretty obvious you have no interest in balance if you can sit here and argue that Sorc is fine as is. Even the die hard Sorcs I play with are saying the class is way overtuned atm.

SugaComa · June 2018

I'm glad this had come up ... I hear crying over sloads ... But it's been on my death recap 3 times since summerset release twice in battle grounds once in cyrodil

However, rune cage combined with fesdric curse is pretty much constantly on my death recap

I can't do anything to counter runcage no matter how much I try, by then I'm usually low enough for curse to finish me

This is the first time in this game I've ever felt something was overperforming with zero counter available

Feanor · June 2018

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Vaoh

We have reached a forum hysteria where every Sorc skill is considered OP. I’m waiting for the nerf calls to Bound Aegis because it has four effects (4!!!!!) while costing only 4,000 magicka.

It’s pretty obvious you have no interest in balance if you can sit here and argue that Sorc is fine as is. Even the die hard Sorcs I play with are saying the class is way overtuned atm.

The difference is that I have been saying on the PTS that Rune Cage shouldn't go live and Overload shouldn't be affected by Empower, but the class should get sensible buffs/changes that help out with the highly telegraphed burst and the mobility issues (snares and the way Streak works with it's built in root). ZOS listened to neither, and if I see the ridiculous suggestions on the NB class rep thread, I'm asking myself if the Sorc community shouldn't just ask for the moon too.

Thogard · June 2018

Feanor wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Rune cage needs a range debuff, like fossilize received. That's all. Cheers.

DKs are melee, Sorcs need to be able to fight at range. If you want to make us melee players, give us a powerful melee spammable like Whip!

You shouldn't be able to blow people up a mile away because of an OP stun. It's dumb, I actually feel it's more of a blight in battlegrounds than sloads. BG's feels like it's pretty much all ranged magic builds(the best groups) with the odd solo NB running around.

You shouldn’t be able to gap close from a mile away with a free snare on top as well. Yet you can. Range is an illusion if you don’t have LoS.

Range is extremely strong. Gap closets don’t invalidate range - they force the gap closer to completely compromise their position in order to do damage.

Stam is weak in BGs this patch because the dmg is so abundant from range dmg dealers that Stam players get blown up before their second attack lands after using a gap closer. Positioning is just too important now that you don’t have to worry about potatoes on teams.

Baconlad · June 2018

Only issue with cage I have is the stun duration. In BGs, ur out of stam. Get caged, ur sitting there for a ridiculous amount of time...u die

Minalan · June 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Rune cage needs a range debuff, like fossilize received. That's all. Cheers.

DKs are melee, Sorcs need to be able to fight at range. If you want to make us melee players, give us a powerful melee spammable like Whip!

You shouldn't be able to blow people up a mile away because of an OP stun. It's dumb, I actually feel it's more of a blight in battlegrounds than sloads. BG's feels like it's pretty much all ranged magic builds(the best groups) with the odd solo NB running around.

You shouldn’t be able to gap close from a mile away with a free snare on top as well. Yet you can. Range is an illusion if you don’t have LoS.

Range is extremely strong. Gap closets don’t invalidate range - they force the gap closer to completely compromise their position in order to do damage.

Stam is weak in BGs this patch because the dmg is so abundant from range dmg dealers that Stam players get blown up before their second attack lands after using a gap closer. Positioning is just too important now that you don’t have to worry about potatoes on teams.

I don’t play BG’s, not until they make a CP option.

But in open world PVP range definitely isn’t an issue. You have Speed jewelry, forward momentum, speed pots, racial bonuses, and gap closers. If a stamina player wants to hump your leg, you can’t really stop it.