Didn't know Queen Ayrenn's people became the Stormcloaks, but okay.

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Didn't know Queen Ayrenn's people became the Stormcloaks, but okay.

By the time Skyrim takes place the Thalmor are racial supremacists, in fact the very first thing they do after overthrowing the rightful rulers of Summerset is to perform an ethnic cleansing, killing anyone living on Summerset that isn't an Altmer. The Stormcloaks are practically Boy Scouts by comparison.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to anything. Are we supposed to make decisions based on what we don't know will happen a 1000 years later? Seems like that's what you're saying here, that we should absolutely not do anything based on events we couldn't possible have known.

You say it like something bad.

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

So true. Then, also the Empire will fall in disgrace after gold-white concordate. Nothing remains for long.

And now, to chill out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvNh40ZIRa0

Rofl...welp, my headache isnt going to get any better haha

VaranisArano wrote: »

So my theory is this:

Summerset just opened its borders to the outside world, letting in newcomers. They are promptly swarmed by hundreds of master thieves and dark brotherhood assassins, unleashing a crime spree the likes of which the island has never seen.

Just saying, opening the borders to newcomers really didn't work out in favor of the Altmer.

So while you are happily robbing and murdering the Altmer now, because you hate the Thalmor of Skyrim, we're sowing the seeds of why the 4th Era Thalmor think humanity has to be wiped out.

Oops.

The dunmer and argonians? Especially the argonians, they have a huge bone to pick with the altmer... though they dont get their revenge on the dunmer till the 4th era

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But if you want to compare - stormcloaks are on about driving out occupying forces from their homeland - the others are about racial supremacy and occupying countries.

Point of order: a largish chunk of the Stormcloaks are pretty racist too. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and treating their Dunmer neighbors like trash.

Sure thing. That's what I wanted to point out in the sentence you decided to cut out.

As far as I remember (haven't touched skyrim for a while) the stormcloaks want their country free of invaders and other races. While I understand the first, the latter isn't exactly a noble goal. And honestly, the Dunmer aren't warm hearted as well.

However, that compared to the purges of the aldmeri dominion.... However, shouldn't mean stormcloaks are goodys, right? Just that the dominion is worse.

People seem so obsessed with the lore.. game lore.. its a game we are in this timezone not that one..

Vuldovahkriid wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But if you want to compare - stormcloaks are on about driving out occupying forces from their homeland - the others are about racial supremacy and occupying countries.

Point of order: a largish chunk of the Stormcloaks are pretty racist too. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and treating their Dunmer neighbors like trash.

Sure thing. That's what I wanted to point out in the sentence you decided to cut out.

As far as I remember (haven't touched skyrim for a while) the stormcloaks want their country free of invaders and other races. While I understand the first, the latter isn't exactly a noble goal. And honestly, the Dunmer aren't warm hearted as well.

However, that compared to the purges of the aldmeri dominion.... However, shouldn't mean stormcloaks are goodys, right? Just that the dominion is worse.

Personally I always side with the Stormcloak's. The Empire is not the Septim Empire anymore, and they are completely weak. The White Gold Concordant weakened the Empire's standing among the other Provinces. Now I'm not religious at all, but if I was told "Hey Nord! You can't worship Talos!", I'm going to be pissed. Ulfric might(in game at least) not want to cooperate with other races, but I'm sure in the scheme of things, his Jarl's could talk some sense into him. Remind him of the days of the Ebonheart Pact.

I am honestly torn about the empire vs the stormcloaks due to the fate of hammerfell. After the great war, this is the 1st real peace that hammerfell has seen since the 1st era, the crowns and forebears are finally united. If the stormcloaks win, high rock will likely leave the empire as well therefore would likely seek another "daggerfall covenant" with hammerfell, in which the forebears would like, but the crowns wouldnt. Whether that would be benificial to hammerfell or not considering this is unknown. However, if skyrim remains with the empire, hanmerfell is still united and the empire could build up strength to rise up against the dominion again, and maybe the redguards will join the empire in the fight

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Didn't know Queen Ayrenn's people became the Stormcloaks, but okay.

I never understood this argument. You have a couple of grumpy drunks in town who don't like the foreigners crowding their nation during a time that their rights are being trampled by two empires. At the same time those very same Nords are kind enough to actually take in the refugees from Black Marsh and Vvardenfell. Yeah... they're such horrible guys. Oh yeah this is also going on all the while you have people writing treatises widely spread about Dunmer supremacy and wiping out the Nords to take over Skyrim through deceit and bring back the Dunmer nation in Skyrim. Context helps.

JobooAGS wrote: »

Vuldovahkriid wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But if you want to compare - stormcloaks are on about driving out occupying forces from their homeland - the others are about racial supremacy and occupying countries.

Point of order: a largish chunk of the Stormcloaks are pretty racist too. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and treating their Dunmer neighbors like trash.

Sure thing. That's what I wanted to point out in the sentence you decided to cut out.

As far as I remember (haven't touched skyrim for a while) the stormcloaks want their country free of invaders and other races. While I understand the first, the latter isn't exactly a noble goal. And honestly, the Dunmer aren't warm hearted as well.

However, that compared to the purges of the aldmeri dominion.... However, shouldn't mean stormcloaks are goodys, right? Just that the dominion is worse.

Personally I always side with the Stormcloak's. The Empire is not the Septim Empire anymore, and they are completely weak. The White Gold Concordant weakened the Empire's standing among the other Provinces. Now I'm not religious at all, but if I was told "Hey Nord! You can't worship Talos!", I'm going to be pissed. Ulfric might(in game at least) not want to cooperate with other races, but I'm sure in the scheme of things, his Jarl's could talk some sense into him. Remind him of the days of the Ebonheart Pact.

I am honestly torn about the empire vs the stormcloaks due to the fate of hammerfell. After the great war, this is the 1st real peace that hammerfell has seen since the 1st era, the crowns and forebears are finally united. If the stormcloaks win, high rock will likely leave the empire as well therefore would likely seek another "daggerfall covenant" with hammerfell, in which the forebears would like, but the crowns wouldnt. Whether that would be benificial to hammerfell or not considering this is unknown. However, if skyrim remains with the empire, hanmerfell is still united and the empire could build up strength to rise up against the dominion again, and maybe the redguards will join the empire in the fight

Why do you think High Rock would rise up against the Empire as well? Are there any hints in the game?

Vuldovahkriid wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But if you want to compare - stormcloaks are on about driving out occupying forces from their homeland - the others are about racial supremacy and occupying countries.

Point of order: a largish chunk of the Stormcloaks are pretty racist too. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and treating their Dunmer neighbors like trash.

Sure thing. That's what I wanted to point out in the sentence you decided to cut out.

As far as I remember (haven't touched skyrim for a while) the stormcloaks want their country free of invaders and other races. While I understand the first, the latter isn't exactly a noble goal. And honestly, the Dunmer aren't warm hearted as well.

However, that compared to the purges of the aldmeri dominion.... However, shouldn't mean stormcloaks are goodys, right? Just that the dominion is worse.

Personally I always side with the Stormcloak's. The Empire is not the Septim Empire anymore, and they are completely weak. The White Gold Concordant weakened the Empire's standing among the other Provinces. Now I'm not religious at all, but if I was told "Hey Nord! You can't worship Talos!", I'm going to be pissed. Ulfric might(in game at least) not want to cooperate with other races, but I'm sure in the scheme of things, his Jarl's could talk some sense into him. Remind him of the days of the Ebonheart Pact.

I'm not religious as well but yep, go and tell someone they are forbidden to worship god, jesus, allah etc. and you won't increase their disposition towards you. So it's comprehensable that they want the empire out, especially if you take into account how gutless and treacherous the empire acted towards the nords.

veloSylraptor wrote: »

Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

. still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

They committed genocide, after the Night of Tears event in which the Snow Elves attacked them first(or at least what history tells us)
And for the Ruby Throne question: "When Martin Septim, the illegitimate son of the late Emperor, smashed the Amulet of Kings to summon an avatar of Akatosh, the barriers were resealed permanently, thus ending the long but now obsolete tradition"http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragonfires

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

Also, lets make something clear here. The Thalmor are not the Altmer, just as the Stormcloaks are not the Nords. They represent a subset of each society, and it is that subset that is the subject of criticism.

Stormcloaks are not Nord supremacists. There is only one place on the continent where Nord culture can thrive and amazingly enough that is in the North, the only place the Nords have ever really lived in great quantities. It is true they came from Atmora just as Redguards came from Yokuda or Altmer came from Aldmeris. When the Nords arrived they were peaceful with the Falmer (when they were Ice elves). That all changed at the Night of Tears when the treachery of the Falmer murdered families in their sleep at Saarthal. When this happened and the Nords of Atmora heard of it they sent their hero Ysgramor and 100 companions. It was then that the Ice Elves and the Nords were locked in war and despite powerful magic the Ice Elves were losing. They attempted to befriend the Dwemer and were betrayed and yet one can read in Nord documents that they lament the loss of the Falmer race. It was not their desire to wipe them out. The Nords have a right to their homes and that is why they find it compelling to defend their homes. Their way of life is being trampled on by the Thalmor government (3rd-Reich styled elves) and a capitulating Empire that has lost its way. Bear in mind that Nords have for millenia along with the Redguards and Imperials have been the backbone of the Imperial Army as a general cultural trait.


In my own view it would be logical to see a 4th Empire appear out of an alliance between High Rock, Skyrim, and Hammerfell to push back the Thalmor. When that day came I suspect that these rogue nations would then turn back to the Empire and fall back into peaceful enterprise. Most Stormcloaks don't hate the Empire, they hate what it has become by capitulating to an evil (elven supremacist) regime.

It is true that a bunch of Argonians live on the docks. They might complain about it but have you ever noticed that all throughout the series Argonians lived along the docks? Don't you think there is a reason for this? Doesn't it make a lot of sense that an amphibious and aquatic race would live next to a body of water and be involved in marine-business? I suspect the Argonians work where they work in large part because that's what they want and have always done. I also suspect that Argonians generally do not like the cold of Skyrim and the distance from their Hist trees. They're not happy about the uncomfortable feelings they're getting because of the war. This doesn't mean they are being specifically mistreated though. The Dunmer refugees were given a large portion of the town. It is true it wasn't the fanciest part of town but consider that they were REFUGEES who had nothing. The fact they were given anything is actually quite a pleasant choice. People aren't giving up what is theirs so that someone else can take their stuff and put them on the streets. Bear in mind that the Dunmer arrive at a time when Elven treachery has been plaguing the Empire for quite some time from the South (Summerset) and a book is circulating by Dunmer hands that plots the murder of the Nords. Read the in game stories and you might have a different opinion.

As an Orc, I'm glad we stay out of this mess.

We'll have our own problems to deal with in the future.