Queen Ayrenn, No Matter How Hard You Try to Stop It ...

VaranisArano

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

Which is why you are wrong. Both Naarifin and Ancano acted on their own, without order or permission of the Thalmor, they merely exploited their position within the Thalmor.
If we judge the actions of individuals, we could also say that all blades are loosers, because they allowed Mehrunes Dagon to devastate Tamriel etc.

Honestly, between Jauffre losing the Amulet of Kings, Baurus and the other Blades failing to save Uriel Septim, the Hero of Kvatch having to do everything, Esbern being practically useless and Delphine wanting me to kill Paarthurnax...

Every Blade I've met in the games besides Caius Cosades is a loser, and he's a sugar tooth who pulls out of Morrowind right when you need him.

So except for the hero of Daggerfall, the nerevarine, the hero of Kvatch, and possibly the Dragonborn, the Blades really aren't that impressive.

But thats a little off topic.

Every Thalmor we've met in-game is all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

You're gonna have to try harder than that to claim that the rest of the Thalmor back home are as pure as snow.

Ondolemar from Markarth was actually very decent Thalmor who was just doing his job, making sure no one is worshipping Talos secretly, and as that he thanks you when you decide to assist him and is always kind after when seing you.

So, Ondolemar is politely all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

At least he's polite about it, right?

You really know nothing, dont you?

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is broken and until the next one arrives, I'm not sure whether to take this seriously or not.

In any case, I double checked to make sure I wasn't misrembering and from Ondolemar's dialogue, yeah, he's politely in favor of the Thalmor's actions, including their goal to "purge the heresy from this land as surely as the flame burns the flesh from the bone."

I'd go drinking with him over, say, Elenwen, though.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ondolemar

Aebaradath

Let me stop you all right here.

You thought you could have a Mer-massacring funfest without me?!

Hurbster

Thalmor attack me when I politely tell them I can worship whomsoever I wish. Stormcloaks 'allow' the Dunmer to live in the slum parts of Windhelm and the Argonians are not allowed to live inside the city (possibly to avoid Dunmer/Argonian conflict) ?

And Ulric is a Thalmor dupe isn't he ? Although that is open to interpretation.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

kichwas

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Didn't know Queen Ayrenn's people became the Stormcloaks, but okay.

Yep.

In Elder Scrolls unless you hide in trees, having pointy ears is a path to evil...

Elves are basically evil...

In one sense that's refreshing from the usual Fantasy lore that depicts the blond blue eyed and/or pointy-eared folks as good and the dark, tanned folk, or 'accented' folks as evil... (yeah look through modern fantasy and prepare to be repulsed as it kind of reveals a lot about who was writing this genre in it's formative years of the first half of the 20th century - and then shocking that so many of those tropes have yet to be abandoned).

Though the Dunmer creation story DOES come from the very story used to claim church support for slavery in Europe and the Americas - something Elder Scrolls took from very early D&D before it got scrubbed out of there... And Elder Scroll's Dark Elves, though not 'inherently evil' like they were done in D&D, have some SERIOUS moral problems that we know keep leading them back to evil... It's just refreshing here that they aren't the ONLY evil elves.

But basically Ayrenn is trying to put together the Weimar Republic and her country is Berlin in around about 1920...
- She doesn't know she's about to get blindsided by some reject from the outer provinces who's currently yelling stupid crap in an Inn somewhere...

Well... stretched out over centuries instead of over 2 decades...

dodgehopper_ESO

kichwas wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Didn't know Queen Ayrenn's people became the Stormcloaks, but okay.

Yep.

In Elder Scrolls unless you hide in trees, having pointy ears is a path to evil...

Elves are basically evil...

In one sense that's refreshing from the usual Fantasy lore that depicts the blond blue eyed and/or pointy-eared folks as good and the dark, tanned folk, or 'accented' folks as evil... (yeah look through modern fantasy and prepare to be repulsed as it kind of reveals a lot about who was writing this genre in it's formative years of the first half of the 20th century - and then shocking that so many of those tropes have yet to be abandoned).

Though the Dunmer creation story DOES come from the very story used to claim church support for slavery in Europe and the Americas - something Elder Scrolls took from very early D&D before it got scrubbed out of there... And Elder Scroll's Dark Elves, though not 'inherently evil' like they were done in D&D, have some SERIOUS moral problems that we know keep leading them back to evil... It's just refreshing here that they aren't the ONLY evil elves.

But basically Ayrenn is trying to put together the Weimar Republic and her country is Berlin in around about 1920...
- She doesn't know she's about to get blindsided by some reject from the outer provinces who's currently yelling stupid crap in an Inn somewhere...

Well... stretched out over centuries instead of over 2 decades...

Let's be realistic. All cultures essentially supported slavery in one point or another a few hundred years ago. People sold their children off because life got too hard or expensive. There are plenty of Chinese stories about this. In fact many things such as the entertainer caste in China resulted from this. The Castrati in Europe were something along this line and caste societies were pretty common all throughout history. Occassionally people get sick of that situation and manage to rise up. Often the uprisings fail. You suggest that Catholicism supported this but I would simply like to point out that much of the slavery issue as we know it in the modern era came out of the caliphate and trickled its way into Europe. European slavery before this time had more of a Lord-Serf type of arrangement. If you go back even further we're talking about Pre-Christian times and Roman civilization and slavery abounded in this environment. I think your comparisons are a little off however. Dark elves represent European slavery from 1400->1800's? I don't think that's where Dark Elves come from. Given a guess I would suspect that the Dunmer are inspired by Viking notions of the Svartalf (also known as Dwarf or black elf) and the elves living under the mounds in Ireland. This is just my guess though. I believe this inspiration is steeped in Germanic/Viking/Irish mythologies. I'd also like to note that Andvari is a Svartalf who helps out the hero Sigurd. They're not all villains but they represent a race of demigods. They're not mere mortals. They are monstrous in a way and I could very easily make comparisons with these concepts and earlier Greek notions of 'the wild country where gods dwell and there is a capricious out of control power'. The 'trinity' of the Dunmer is really the closest thing to what you are talking about but doesn't represent Trinity in the Catholic sense of the word as you suggest. I really don't see the comparison apart from vague trappings that could compare to any culture. One should also note that Slavery as an institution in the Dunmer society is more of a House Dres, Telvanni and to an extent Hlaalu activity. House Redoran shuns laziness and while they have a superior attitude I don't believe slavery suits their knightly ways. Telvanni enslaves people so that they can focus their thoughts 100% on the latest new magical spoon. House Dres handle farming but they don't want to do the hard labor so they steal that labor from their neighbors (which is what slavery is usually like in history, from any culture). Hlaalu are to a lesser extent like the Dres in this matter. All the Dunmer see themselves as superior to Man, Betmer, and even the Altmer. Their contention with the Altmer is that they do not strive enough, and this has made them weak. Ironically, I think the House Dunmer represented this same problem by the time Morrowind rolls around. There's a reason Redoran came out on top after all.