Queen Ayrenn, No Matter How Hard You Try to Stop It ...

Dracane

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

mb10

In the eyes of the Nords and Imperials, the true criminals of Tamriel.

Youve allowed Nord and Imperial propaganda from Skyrim pollute your mind, they are the war loving criminals

veloSylraptor

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

Also, lets make something clear here. The Thalmor are not the Altmer, just as the Stormcloaks are not the Nords. They represent a subset of each society, and it is that subset that is the subject of criticism.

Stormcloaks are not Nord supremacists. There is only one place on the continent where Nord culture can thrive and amazingly enough that is in the North, the only place the Nords have ever really lived in great quantities. It is true they came from Atmora just as Redguards came from Yokuda or Altmer came from Aldmeris. When the Nords arrived they were peaceful with the Falmer (when they were Ice elves). That all changed at the Night of Tears when the treachery of the Falmer murdered families in their sleep at Saarthal. When this happened and the Nords of Atmora heard of it they sent their hero Ysgramor and 100 companions. It was then that the Ice Elves and the Nords were locked in war and despite powerful magic the Ice Elves were losing. They attempted to befriend the Dwemer and were betrayed and yet one can read in Nord documents that they lament the loss of the Falmer race. It was not their desire to wipe them out. The Nords have a right to their homes and that is why they find it compelling to defend their homes. Their way of life is being trampled on by the Thalmor government (3rd-Reich styled elves) and a capitulating Empire that has lost its way. Bear in mind that Nords have for millenia along with the Redguards and Imperials have been the backbone of the Imperial Army as a general cultural trait.


In my own view it would be logical to see a 4th Empire appear out of an alliance between High Rock, Skyrim, and Hammerfell to push back the Thalmor. When that day came I suspect that these rogue nations would then turn back to the Empire and fall back into peaceful enterprise. Most Stormcloaks don't hate the Empire, they hate what it has become by capitulating to an evil (elven supremacist) regime.

It is true that a bunch of Argonians live on the docks. They might complain about it but have you ever noticed that all throughout the series Argonians lived along the docks? Don't you think there is a reason for this? Doesn't it make a lot of sense that an amphibious and aquatic race would live next to a body of water and be involved in marine-business? I suspect the Argonians work where they work in large part because that's what they want and have always done. I also suspect that Argonians generally do not like the cold of Skyrim and the distance from their Hist trees. They're not happy about the uncomfortable feelings they're getting because of the war. This doesn't mean they are being specifically mistreated though. The Dunmer refugees were given a large portion of the town. It is true it wasn't the fanciest part of town but consider that they were REFUGEES who had nothing. The fact they were given anything is actually quite a pleasant choice. People aren't giving up what is theirs so that someone else can take their stuff and put them on the streets. Bear in mind that the Dunmer arrive at a time when Elven treachery has been plaguing the Empire for quite some time from the South (Summerset) and a book is circulating by Dunmer hands that plots the murder of the Nords. Read the in game stories and you might have a different opinion.

I'm not at all excusing what the Thalmor has done, or diminishing what the people of Skyrim are going through. I'm saying they are explicitly allowing and encouraging a Nord Supremacist behavior that can be clearly seen the moment you enter Windhelm. Defending their homes is fine, and yet that is not the rhetoric being represented by Ulfric's rebellion.

The Dunmer arriving at a time of Elven treachery used as an explanation for why they are all being treated suspiciously and just badly in general seems to be just an attempt to justify already existing prejudices. Which again, is what large elements of what the Stormcloak rebellion is encouraging.

Lastly, does helping refugees justify treating them like garbage? Should they all just be eternally grateful to be given a ghetto and thereby accept being treated as less than the Nords of Skyrim? Its not about not being the fanciest part of town here. Its about the open mistreatment of them that aren't dealt with and are openly encouraged by the rhetoric of the Stormcloak rebellion. This is a part of the Stormcloak package here, some of the good things they offer does not excuse any of their bad parts.

dodgehopper_ESO

I'd like to point out something else regarding why Elves don't do as well as humankind generally in the series and why I suspect that the Elves will begin to slowly die out (Probably to the great sadness of many of the shorter lived races). Mer breeding patterns and gestation take longer than that of humans. When an elven nation sees great casualties in war they do not replace the lost as quickly as Humans, Argonians, Orcs (elf exception) or Khajiit. Because of this it would not shock me that if the Elder Scrolls series keeps playing out there will be an eventual loss in one of the Elven races. If I had to guess which race would disappear I would suspect the Dunmer would be the next on the chopping block. They are extremely sinister and truly xenophobic. They betray everyone they come into contact with because it is built into their culture to do so (even among one another). I'm not saying this because I hate Dunmer. All it takes to realize this is to recognize that the 3 main 'deities' they worship are Mephala, Boethiah, and Azura. Mephala teaches murder and scheming (among other things) while Boethiah teaches murder, betrayal, and plotting. The Argonians have millenia of abuse by the Dunmer and pushed them off much of 'their' lands. I would suspect that this was Hist territory though in the First Era and it would not surprise me if the Hist are reclaiming their old lands, fighting war in the slow pondering way of Trees. Meanwhile the Nords have been another race that was regularly enslaved by the Dunmer peoples (as they are neighbors). The Altmer are likewise putting themselves in great danger with their risky gambit to enrage the human populations of Nirn. I suspect the elves apart from the Bosmer and Orcs are going to take a huge hit in the next game that Bethesda writes. This is because the Bosmer are not such bad guys and the Orcs while they can be a bit violent generally keep to themselves and their little fortified moon-shaped teepee village thingies. The City Orcs also blend in well with human society, particularly in the Imperial Legion and the crafts.


I'm curious to see where the story will lead next if Bethesda ever cares to write it.

VaranisArano

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

dodgehopper_ESO

veloSylraptor wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

Also, lets make something clear here. The Thalmor are not the Altmer, just as the Stormcloaks are not the Nords. They represent a subset of each society, and it is that subset that is the subject of criticism.

Stormcloaks are not Nord supremacists. There is only one place on the continent where Nord culture can thrive and amazingly enough that is in the North, the only place the Nords have ever really lived in great quantities. It is true they came from Atmora just as Redguards came from Yokuda or Altmer came from Aldmeris. When the Nords arrived they were peaceful with the Falmer (when they were Ice elves). That all changed at the Night of Tears when the treachery of the Falmer murdered families in their sleep at Saarthal. When this happened and the Nords of Atmora heard of it they sent their hero Ysgramor and 100 companions. It was then that the Ice Elves and the Nords were locked in war and despite powerful magic the Ice Elves were losing. They attempted to befriend the Dwemer and were betrayed and yet one can read in Nord documents that they lament the loss of the Falmer race. It was not their desire to wipe them out. The Nords have a right to their homes and that is why they find it compelling to defend their homes. Their way of life is being trampled on by the Thalmor government (3rd-Reich styled elves) and a capitulating Empire that has lost its way. Bear in mind that Nords have for millenia along with the Redguards and Imperials have been the backbone of the Imperial Army as a general cultural trait.


In my own view it would be logical to see a 4th Empire appear out of an alliance between High Rock, Skyrim, and Hammerfell to push back the Thalmor. When that day came I suspect that these rogue nations would then turn back to the Empire and fall back into peaceful enterprise. Most Stormcloaks don't hate the Empire, they hate what it has become by capitulating to an evil (elven supremacist) regime.

It is true that a bunch of Argonians live on the docks. They might complain about it but have you ever noticed that all throughout the series Argonians lived along the docks? Don't you think there is a reason for this? Doesn't it make a lot of sense that an amphibious and aquatic race would live next to a body of water and be involved in marine-business? I suspect the Argonians work where they work in large part because that's what they want and have always done. I also suspect that Argonians generally do not like the cold of Skyrim and the distance from their Hist trees. They're not happy about the uncomfortable feelings they're getting because of the war. This doesn't mean they are being specifically mistreated though. The Dunmer refugees were given a large portion of the town. It is true it wasn't the fanciest part of town but consider that they were REFUGEES who had nothing. The fact they were given anything is actually quite a pleasant choice. People aren't giving up what is theirs so that someone else can take their stuff and put them on the streets. Bear in mind that the Dunmer arrive at a time when Elven treachery has been plaguing the Empire for quite some time from the South (Summerset) and a book is circulating by Dunmer hands that plots the murder of the Nords. Read the in game stories and you might have a different opinion.

I'm not at all excusing what the Thalmor has done, or diminishing what the people of Skyrim are going through. I'm saying they are explicitly allowing and encouraging a Nord Supremacist behavior that can be clearly seen the moment you enter Windhelm. Defending their homes is fine, and yet that is not the rhetoric being represented by Ulfric's rebellion.

The Dunmer arriving at a time of Elven treachery used as an explanation for why they are all being treated suspiciously and just badly in general seems to be just an attempt to justify already existing prejudices. Which again, is what large elements of what the Stormcloak rebellion is encouraging.

Lastly, does helping refugees justify treating them like garbage? Should they all just be eternally grateful to be given a ghetto and thereby accept being treated as less than the Nords of Skyrim? Its not about not being the fanciest part of town here. Its about the open mistreatment of them that aren't dealt with and are openly encouraged by the rhetoric of the Stormcloak rebellion. This is a part of the Stormcloak package here, some of the good things they offer does not excuse any of their bad parts.

There is a difference between being wary of outside cultures you have had problems with in the past and STILL taking in those people when they are in great need versus feeling superior and expressly trying to lord over or push people out of their lands. The Dunmer/Altmer are more along the lines of the latter feelings and the Nords fall in line with the former. I'm not saying that some Nords mistreat the Dunmer or Argonians. What I'm suggesting is that this is not normative. I'm not even sure that Ulfric is the big bad monster he is made out to be. Consider this: Ulfric shouts down Torygg based on old dueling traditions of the Nords. The Empire doesn't accept this because the Empire desires to wipe out the old Nord Ways. The Empire has dug its tentacles into the Nord Province with deceit and treachery. The moot is a farce by this era and the Nord people know it. The tribal elders can't choose their leader in the ways they have always done. Because of this a lot of people wanted Torygg dealt with and it is worth noting that Ulfric tried to talk sense into Torygg before he felt it necessary to shout him down. It wasn't a fair fight I think we can all assume that. Ulfric was a battle hardened soldier as well as an acolyte of the Greybeards and Torygg was a young man too comfortable with the pomp and circumstance of the blue castle. The loss was unfortunate but I can understand where Ulfric is coming from. The one area where I can see some problems with Ulfric is what happened to Maddanach's people. Given what I have seen of the Reachmen though in Skyrim as well as in ESO I'm not so sure he was mistaken in his actions. The Reachmen are daedra-worshipping savages who commit strange acts of tree-necromancy thingies to their Briarheart warriors and hags. The fact he pushed them out might be related to this so I'm not going to assume necessarily that there is harmful intent, but I do agree Markarth is representative of some problems with the Stormcloak history. [Edit: I'd like to add here that my suspicion why he took Markath was to gain wealth to fund his war. War isn't pretty and while it doesn't excuse what happened it might in some manner explain what was done here.]

Nords are by no means perfect. Many of them don't want to see the fall of the Empire but they are at a tumultuous time in their history shaped by forces none of them really have a part in. The dragon-blooded Emperors have fallen with the end of the Septim line followed by Elves trying to wipe out this past. I suspect this is deeper than Septim though as the Thalmor want to undo the tyrrany of existence and return to their perfected state of being. I believe they should try to attempt the Psijic endeavor if this is their goal as opposed to murdering 3/4 of the peoples of Tamriel en masse. The Thalmor in many ways are trying to do what Mankor Camoran pushed, which is some next level evil. Not all of the Altmer are bad. I quite like Sinderion, or the couple of old Altmer alchemists in Skyrim. I find it interesting that these old Alchemists are still well regarded despite being Altmer and despite being in Windhelm. This is part of why I don't think the Nords are as culturally as villainous as is being made out by the theory that there is some kind of 'Nord-supremacist genocide' going on. Just to clarify: Nords are not remotely similar to German national socialists from the 1930's and 1940's. That distinction rests on the Thalmor in the events of Skyrim.

veloSylraptor

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

Also, lets make something clear here. The Thalmor are not the Altmer, just as the Stormcloaks are not the Nords. They represent a subset of each society, and it is that subset that is the subject of criticism.

Stormcloaks are not Nord supremacists. There is only one place on the continent where Nord culture can thrive and amazingly enough that is in the North, the only place the Nords have ever really lived in great quantities. It is true they came from Atmora just as Redguards came from Yokuda or Altmer came from Aldmeris. When the Nords arrived they were peaceful with the Falmer (when they were Ice elves). That all changed at the Night of Tears when the treachery of the Falmer murdered families in their sleep at Saarthal. When this happened and the Nords of Atmora heard of it they sent their hero Ysgramor and 100 companions. It was then that the Ice Elves and the Nords were locked in war and despite powerful magic the Ice Elves were losing. They attempted to befriend the Dwemer and were betrayed and yet one can read in Nord documents that they lament the loss of the Falmer race. It was not their desire to wipe them out. The Nords have a right to their homes and that is why they find it compelling to defend their homes. Their way of life is being trampled on by the Thalmor government (3rd-Reich styled elves) and a capitulating Empire that has lost its way. Bear in mind that Nords have for millenia along with the Redguards and Imperials have been the backbone of the Imperial Army as a general cultural trait.


In my own view it would be logical to see a 4th Empire appear out of an alliance between High Rock, Skyrim, and Hammerfell to push back the Thalmor. When that day came I suspect that these rogue nations would then turn back to the Empire and fall back into peaceful enterprise. Most Stormcloaks don't hate the Empire, they hate what it has become by capitulating to an evil (elven supremacist) regime.

It is true that a bunch of Argonians live on the docks. They might complain about it but have you ever noticed that all throughout the series Argonians lived along the docks? Don't you think there is a reason for this? Doesn't it make a lot of sense that an amphibious and aquatic race would live next to a body of water and be involved in marine-business? I suspect the Argonians work where they work in large part because that's what they want and have always done. I also suspect that Argonians generally do not like the cold of Skyrim and the distance from their Hist trees. They're not happy about the uncomfortable feelings they're getting because of the war. This doesn't mean they are being specifically mistreated though. The Dunmer refugees were given a large portion of the town. It is true it wasn't the fanciest part of town but consider that they were REFUGEES who had nothing. The fact they were given anything is actually quite a pleasant choice. People aren't giving up what is theirs so that someone else can take their stuff and put them on the streets. Bear in mind that the Dunmer arrive at a time when Elven treachery has been plaguing the Empire for quite some time from the South (Summerset) and a book is circulating by Dunmer hands that plots the murder of the Nords. Read the in game stories and you might have a different opinion.

I'm not at all excusing what the Thalmor has done, or diminishing what the people of Skyrim are going through. I'm saying they are explicitly allowing and encouraging a Nord Supremacist behavior that can be clearly seen the moment you enter Windhelm. Defending their homes is fine, and yet that is not the rhetoric being represented by Ulfric's rebellion.

The Dunmer arriving at a time of Elven treachery used as an explanation for why they are all being treated suspiciously and just badly in general seems to be just an attempt to justify already existing prejudices. Which again, is what large elements of what the Stormcloak rebellion is encouraging.

Lastly, does helping refugees justify treating them like garbage? Should they all just be eternally grateful to be given a ghetto and thereby accept being treated as less than the Nords of Skyrim? Its not about not being the fanciest part of town here. Its about the open mistreatment of them that aren't dealt with and are openly encouraged by the rhetoric of the Stormcloak rebellion. This is a part of the Stormcloak package here, some of the good things they offer does not excuse any of their bad parts.

There is a difference between being wary of outside cultures you have had problems with in the past and STILL taking in those people when they are in great need versus feeling superior and expressly trying to lord over or push people out of their lands. The Dunmer/Altmer are more along the lines of the latter feelings and the Nords fall in line with the former. I'm not saying that some Nords mistreat the Dunmer or Argonians. What I'm suggesting is that this is not normative. I'm not even sure that Ulfric is the big bad monster he is made out to be. Consider this: Ulfric shouts down Torygg based on old dueling traditions of the Nords. The Empire doesn't accept this because the Empire desires to wipe out the old Nord Ways. The Empire has dug its tentacles into the Nord Province with deceit and treachery. The moot is a farce by this era and the Nord people know it. The tribal elders can't choose their leader in the ways they have always done. Because of this a lot of people wanted Torygg dealt with and it is worth noting that Ulfric tried to talk sense into Torygg before he felt it necessary to shout him down. It wasn't a fair fight I think we can all assume that. Ulfric was a battle hardened soldier as well as an acolyte of the Greybeards and Torygg was a young man too comfortable with the pomp and circumstance of the blue castle. The loss was unfortunate but I can understand where Ulfric is coming from. The one area where I can see some problems with Ulfric is what happened to Maddanach's people. Given what I have seen of the Reachmen though in Skyrim as well as in ESO I'm not so sure he was mistaken in his actions. The Reachmen are daedra-worshipping savages who commit strange acts of tree-necromancy thingies to their Briarheart warriors and hags. The fact he pushed them out might be related to this so I'm not going to assume necessarily that there is harmful intent, but I do agree Markarth is representative of some problems with the Stormcloak history.

Nords are by no means perfect. Many of them don't want to see the fall of the Empire but they are at a tumultuous time in their history shaped by forces none of them really have a part in. The dragon-blooded Emperors have fallen with the end of the Septim line followed by Elves trying to wipe out this past. I suspect this is deeper than Septim though as the Thalmor want to undo the tyrrany of existence and return to their perfected state of being. I believe they should try to attempt the Psijic endeavor if this is their goal as opposed to murdering 3/4 of the peoples of Tamriel en masse. The Thalmor in many ways are trying to do what Mankor Camoran pushed, which is some next level evil. Not all of the Altmer are bad. I quite like Sinderion, or the couple of old Altmer alchemists in Skyrim. I find it interesting that these old Alchemists are still well regarded despite being Altmer and despite being in Windhelm. This is part of why I don't think the Nords are as culturally as villainous as is being made out by the theory that there is some kind of 'Nord-supremacist genocide' going on. Just to clarify: Nords are not remotely similar to German national socialists from the 1930's and 1940's. That distinction rests on the Thalmor in the events of Skyrim.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm criticizing all Nords here, perhaps I failed to make it clear. I am specifically calling out those certain elements from within the Stormcloaks. Yes, I can see there is a legitimate concern and anger for the Nord populations in Skyrim. However, those elements within the Stormcloaks seem prevalent enough that either the message they send implies a certain Nord supremacy, or they simply failed to intervene and police the local population in regards to the mistreatment of the Dunmer refugees. Either way, if those elements are not dealt with by the time the Stormcloaks take power, then they will have those people in power. By then the prejudices those minority, if it is as you say, will then become institutionalized and systemic.

I'm not calling for the overthrow of the Stormcloaks because I think they do not have a legitimate grievance in general, only that they remove the problematic elements in their ranks. Then I would consider them a legitimate cause worth fighting for. More specifically I was explaining it as a reason for never siding with them.

JobooAGS

veloSylraptor wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

Idk, punshing a group of people for *** their ansestors have done seems to create lots of conflict and ammosity between 2 groups... The thalmor legitamently commited genocide, in both summerset and valenwood. The stormcloaks havent done such thing. If you want to go across to ancient history and claim "muh genocide" then all the races are guility, and it kind of loses its meaning.

I'm just saying its hypocritical to accuse one when the others are equally guilty of it. I'm not saying Nords should be punished for their ancestors massacring the Snow Elves, just that "Skyrim for the Nords!" conveniently forgets all the atrocities they committed to get Skyrim. As if this was their rightful land to begin with when they stole it from the Snow Elves.

Also, what are you saying here? That them not having committed large scale genocide excuses their oppressive treatment toward the Dunmer and the beast races? The already institutionalized bigotry seen within Skyrim and especially the Stormcloak holds? Are we going to overlook that because, "Hey, they've done something worst. So our atrocities are ok!"

Lets not forget that Ulfric manipulated Torygg into accepting a duel, because of Nord tradition and honor and all that. Torygg knows he didn't stand a chance, he just had to accept. Ulfric murdered a boy to get his way.

I'm not siding with either the Thalmor or the Stormcloaks here, I would say both of them should be overthrown.

Vuldovahkriid wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

. still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

They committed genocide, after the Night of Tears event in which the Snow Elves attacked them first(or at least what history tells us)
And for the Ruby Throne question: "When Martin Septim, the illegitimate son of the late Emperor, smashed the Amulet of Kings to summon an avatar of Akatosh, the barriers were resealed permanently, thus ending the long but now obsolete tradition"http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragonfires

Alright, suppose we believe that history that the Snow Elves attacked them first unprovoked. The appropriate response is genocide?

Why would we assume the different people of an entire race to be fungible? Why would we assume individual members of that group are equally responsible as their leadership when they could quite easily oppose their leadership.

The snow elves commited genocide on the nords save a few who brought news to the atmorans while the Nords were just looking for peaceful settlement which lead to the snow elves demise. Since then, which took place around the end of the Merethic era to the beginning of the 1st era, Skyrim was Nord territory, over the span of thousands of years. "Skyrim for the Nords" is no different than "Summerset for the Altmer", "Cyrodiil for the Imperials", or "Black Marsh for the Argonians".

The Nords likely say "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" due to the fact that they have a government (Thalmor) who is telling them what to do, and the government that is supposed to be on their side (The Empire) to those Nords seemenly acts to be on the Thalmor's side, which leads to the nords taking things into thwir own hands which (at least initially) leads to discrimination towards outsiders, which in my opinion, is unfortunante and wrong, it is also the cause of my decision in the war in the next paragraph.

Although I am still on the fence on what is best for hammerfell, on most of my playthroughs I have sided with the Imperials, and yes I absolutely hate the thalmor/aldmeri dominion.

JobooAGS

Radinyn wrote: »

Z'en in ESO told us that gods die when they have no followers, and are weak when they have very small amount. Talos was an actual monster and the only goal of Thalmor is to kill his god form. He was much much worse than Thalmor

Banning worship doesnt eliminate the worshippers... it just means people dont openly worship him

Vietfox

I would love to see in the next elder scrolls games the other face of the Aldmeri Dominion, a better one. Never liked the Empire.

dodgehopper_ESO

JobooAGS wrote: »

Radinyn wrote: »

Z'en in ESO told us that gods die when they have no followers, and are weak when they have very small amount. Talos was an actual monster and the only goal of Thalmor is to kill his god form. He was much much worse than Thalmor

Banning worship doesnt eliminate the worshippers... it just means people dont openly worship him

It also means the Justiciars roam the countryside looking for heretics to hunt down and brutalize/torture/murder with the open acceptance of the Empire. There is a reason that the Nords aren't happy with this arrangement. Even the Imperials are unhappy with the arrangement they're just a beaten people. The Nords and Redguards however still have a lot of fight left in them and the Elves have the problem of being way too deep in human territory by trying to push these people groups around. Personally, I think the elves are in some serious trouble by the time the next game in the series comes around. Retribution is going to not be pretty I suspect. The Bosmer are also in this camp and have a lot of reason for wanting to fight the Thalmor regime. The Thalmor do not have a lot of friends outside their islands and are likely going to be stretched thin. I would imagine that the Sload might find this to be a good time to assault them as well...

JobooAGS

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Radinyn wrote: »

Z'en in ESO told us that gods die when they have no followers, and are weak when they have very small amount. Talos was an actual monster and the only goal of Thalmor is to kill his god form. He was much much worse than Thalmor

Banning worship doesnt eliminate the worshippers... it just means people dont openly worship him

It also means the Justiciars roam the countryside looking for heretics to hunt down and brutalize/torture/murder with the open acceptance of the Empire. There is a reason that the Nords aren't happy with this arrangement. Even the Imperials are unhappy with the arrangement they're just a beaten people. The Nords and Redguards however still have a lot of fight left in them and the Elves have the problem of being way too deep in human territory by trying to push these people groups around. Personally, I think the elves are in some serious trouble by the time the next game in the series comes around. Retribution is going to not be pretty I suspect. The Bosmer are also in this camp and have a lot of reason for wanting to fight the Thalmor regime. The Thalmor do not have a lot of friends outside their islands and are likely going to be stretched thin. I would imagine that the Sload might find this to be a good time to assault them as well...

What justicars? All I see are dead naked elves at the bottom of an icy lake and a pouch full of coin in my pocket... there may or may not be a few nords running around with swords while in roughspin tunics...

olivesforge

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

JobooAGS

olivesforge wrote: »

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

Who gives a crap about best interests? Freedom >> slavery. Period

Yusuf

Well many elves in Skyrim's time witnessed their quasi-genocide at the hands of Tiber Septim/Talos firsthand when he basically nuked Summerset. 700 or so years later that guy is being worshipped.

DuskMarine

JobooAGS wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

Who gives a crap about best interests? Freedom >> slavery. Period

in a game setting you are horribly wrong XD gotta have people work for you to stay alive otherwise your screwed in the long run.

JobooAGS

DuskMarine wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

Who gives a crap about best interests? Freedom >> slavery. Period

in a game setting you are horribly wrong XD gotta have people work for you to stay alive otherwise your screwed in the long run.

That is volentary work therefore =/= slavery

VaranisArano

Yusuf wrote: »

Well many elves in Skyrim's time witnessed their quasi-genocide at the hands of Tiber Septim/Talos firsthand when he basically nuked Summerset. 700 or so years later that guy is being worshipped.

No, with the rare exception of people like Divayth Fyr, most elves don't live longer than 300 years. These aren't Tolkien elves.

DuskMarine

JobooAGS wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

Who gives a crap about best interests? Freedom >> slavery. Period

in a game setting you are horribly wrong XD gotta have people work for you to stay alive otherwise your screwed in the long run.

That is volentary work therefore =/= slavery

if they dont work you kill them...........hows that voluntary?? in games if my npcs dont work i normally murder them and get more.

JobooAGS

DuskMarine wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

Who gives a crap about best interests? Freedom >> slavery. Period

in a game setting you are horribly wrong XD gotta have people work for you to stay alive otherwise your screwed in the long run.

That is volentary work therefore =/= slavery

if they dont work you kill them...........hows that voluntary?? in games if my npcs dont work i normally murder them and get more.

Thats your game, not mine

TheNuminous1

JobooAGS wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

If you want to go across to ancient history

Thats the Fundamental Difference between Mer and Man.

What happened a few lifetimes ago For an Elf. Is ancient history to a Man. They dont live in the same flow of time.

One man and One Mer Born at the same time.

That man lives, breeds, dies. and so do his children's children's children ect ect....

That mer lives to be 600. Has one child who is now middle aged.

The Mans lineage has gone on generations, while the Mer is on its next direct chain in the bloodline.

So if something that Man did hurt or offended that Mer. Then 600 years later when the Mer shows up to seek closure or whatever. What he is discussing as his personal history. Is ancient and forgotten knowledge to the Mans descendants.

Dracane

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

Which is why you are wrong. Both Naarifin and Ancano acted on their own, without order or permission of the Thalmor, they merely exploited their position within the Thalmor.
If we judge the actions of individuals, we could also say that all blades are loosers, because they allowed Mehrunes Dagon to devastate Tamriel etc.

JobooAGS

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

I don't see how the Stormcloaks are any better than the Thalmor, bunch of Nord supremacists. I always side with the Empire based on that one reason alone. Whether or not Ulfric will wise up and cooperate with the other races is really irrelevant, empowering the Stormcloaks would institutionalize their prejudices anyway. And "Skyrim for the Nords!"? Really? Didn't they commit genocide of the Snow Elves who already lived there? Convenient to forget isn't it?

While I do not see much hope in the Empire, they seem to be the only one (portrayed so far) that is actually interested in keeping things together. Not rallying people based on common hatred of another group, aside from the Thalmor who attacked them. The Empire seems to be portrayed with having the most nuanced views about the other nations; not necessarily blaming their peoples for what happened, but the political powers at play. But hey, empires come and go. The Imperial Empire has come and gone twice by the time of Skyrim. Looks like its time to collapse, but seeing the pattern its just gonna return. You still need an Alessian to sit on the ruby throne to keep the Daedra out of Nirn don't you?

If you want to go across to ancient history

Thats the Fundamental Difference between Mer and Man.

What happened a few lifetimes ago For an Elf. Is ancient history to a Man. They dont live in the same flow of time.

One man and One Mer Born at the same time.

That man lives, breeds, dies. and so do his children's children's children ect ect....

That mer lives to be 600. Has one child who is now middle aged.

The Mans lineage has gone on generations, while the Mer is on its next direct chain in the bloodline.

So if something that Man did hurt or offended that Mer. Then 600 years later when the Mer shows up to seek closure or whatever. What he is discussing as his personal history. Is ancient and forgotten knowledge to the Mans descendants.

300 is the equalivalent to 80 for elves, just as very few humans live well past 100, very few elves live to be 600

VaranisArano

Dracane wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

Which is why you are wrong. Both Naarifin and Ancano acted on their own, without order or permission of the Thalmor, they merely exploited their position within the Thalmor.
If we judge the actions of individuals, we could also say that all blades are loosers, because they allowed Mehrunes Dagon to devastate Tamriel etc.

Honestly, between Jauffre losing the Amulet of Kings, Baurus and the other Blades failing to save Uriel Septim, the Hero of Kvatch having to do everything, Esbern being practically useless and Delphine wanting me to kill Paarthurnax...

Every Blade I've met in the games besides Caius Cosades is a loser, and he's a sugar tooth who pulls out of Morrowind right when you need him.

So except for the hero of Daggerfall, the nerevarine, the hero of Kvatch, and possibly the Dragonborn, the Blades really aren't that impressive.

But thats a little off topic.

Every Thalmor we've met in-game is all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

You're gonna have to try harder than that to claim that the rest of the Thalmor back home are as pure as snow.

dodgehopper_ESO

olivesforge wrote: »

There are scurrilous charges throughout this thread that the Aldmeri are involved in dispossessing people from their lands, enforcing their religious values on others, and general villany.

This is unsurprising, as all children react to the scolding of their parents with similar charges. To a child, the act of keeping their hands from the stove is villany, requiring them to do chores is oppression, and telling them to go to bed is tyranny. But it is in their best interests.

Eventually the races of men will leave their long adolescence and take their rightful place under Aldmeri guidance. Until then, just as it would be cruel to allow children to play in a dolmen, it would similarly be cruel to leave Man to the variges of fate and the cruelness of the world.

The oppression you see is truly concern, and above all, duty. We Aldmeri sacrifice greatly to protect everyone but the tree-lickers. You should be thankful for such kindness.

The Ayleids were wiped out for their infamous behavior. Were there good Ayleids? Yes. Were they majority at the end of their civilization? No. This is why many of the Ayleids ended up intermarrying with the Bretons and Bosmer people. They helped to fight against the DAEDRIC consorting wrongdoers who were doing some really twisted stuff. The Ayleids were wiped out because their civilization had become decadent and terrifyingly evil. Their lording over human slaves was only just a part of that evil. They were into blood sacrifices and worse. Elven supremacy in Elder Scrolls may be the opinion of their culture but by their actions is usually a falsehood. They have long lives (about 200-300 years) and slightly better magic propensities. The truth of the matter is that I think Mer lost their way and this is why Akatosh ends up more or less siding with the humans by the time Alessia comes around. Does this mean that all of the Altmer are villains? Of course not. Sinderion, Calcelmo, Nurelion and so forth are examples of decent Altmer in Skyrim. During the late reign of the Ayleids however, their slavery and sacrifices would have made the Telvanni and Dres members squeamish. This was the great Aldmer civilization on Nirn that ultimately failed.

I think the Mer civilizations are doomed to fail in large part because of their hubris, their biology (long life, rare births), and a savage history in the name of 'Civilization'. The goals Queen Ayrenn have would bring out the good qualities of the Altmer if only the people would go along with it. Ayrenn is the only elven monarch I'm aware of that has a shot at ruling Tamriel and unfortunately I suspect her vassals are ruining that chance. Their one shot at regaining the ruby throne is going to fail at this point because A) she can't light the dragonfires and she can't get her own people to think past their little island. The isolationism itself isn't too bad but all the more scary trappings behind that are what puts the Altmer in danger I think. The college of propriety in Auridon is a good example of this. I find it amazing that the Ebonheart pact is actually doing a better job integrating Argonians, Dunmer and Nords than the Altmer are doing with their own distant kin (Bosmer and Khajiit). The Altmer of the ESO storyline are doing a bang-up job at angering pretty much everyone on Tamriel. The worst atrocities in the entire game are committed by an Altmer general toward the Argonians in the form of infanticide. I say this as someone who plays predominately in the AD faction and yet it is patently obvious. Its clear that worm cultists infiltration of the Altmer army is a part of this and its clear that all of the armies have this problem. I'd say its interesting though that the worst abuses are by an Altmer general, and I suspect it is because of that excessive cultural pride the Altmer have in their 'superiority'.

Eventually, I think the only Mer race that has a shot is the Bosmer if you extrapolate what has been going on in the series. The Orcs have a problem with the violence of their Malacath cult and this has weakened them to a great degree. Individually, the Orcs are very strong but their culture has no means to really ever thrive when they live off of grudges driven by a poo-god. The Bosmer on the other hand try to deal fairly with outsiders, do not hold any kind of superior attitude and are generally quite affable. They fight when they need to and of course respect their own religion and traditions but not in the way that the Dunmer and Altmer have. It is interesting to note that the Altmer have managed to anger the Orsimer and Bosmer in very serious ways by the time Skyrim has released. Most of the map wants to see the Altmer dealt with and I see Skyrim as an interesting historical turning point (which is what all Elder Scrolls games are meant to be).

Ajaxandriel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzqUhYP1uAA

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that I think Mer lost their way and this is why Akatosh ends up more or less siding with the humans by the time Alessia comes around.

"Akatosh" ... LOL

False gods. False gods everywhere !!

akredon_ESO

Put all thalmor to the sword. Long live the storm cloaks Long live skyrim !

ArvenAldmeri

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

Which is why you are wrong. Both Naarifin and Ancano acted on their own, without order or permission of the Thalmor, they merely exploited their position within the Thalmor.
If we judge the actions of individuals, we could also say that all blades are loosers, because they allowed Mehrunes Dagon to devastate Tamriel etc.

Honestly, between Jauffre losing the Amulet of Kings, Baurus and the other Blades failing to save Uriel Septim, the Hero of Kvatch having to do everything, Esbern being practically useless and Delphine wanting me to kill Paarthurnax...

Every Blade I've met in the games besides Caius Cosades is a loser, and he's a sugar tooth who pulls out of Morrowind right when you need him.

So except for the hero of Daggerfall, the nerevarine, the hero of Kvatch, and possibly the Dragonborn, the Blades really aren't that impressive.

But thats a little off topic.

Every Thalmor we've met in-game is all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

You're gonna have to try harder than that to claim that the rest of the Thalmor back home are as pure as snow.

Ondolemar from Markarth was actually very decent Thalmor who was just doing his job, making sure no one is worshipping Talos secretly, and as that he thanks you when you decide to assist him and is always kind after when seing you.

VaranisArano

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

Which is why you are wrong. Both Naarifin and Ancano acted on their own, without order or permission of the Thalmor, they merely exploited their position within the Thalmor.
If we judge the actions of individuals, we could also say that all blades are loosers, because they allowed Mehrunes Dagon to devastate Tamriel etc.

Honestly, between Jauffre losing the Amulet of Kings, Baurus and the other Blades failing to save Uriel Septim, the Hero of Kvatch having to do everything, Esbern being practically useless and Delphine wanting me to kill Paarthurnax...

Every Blade I've met in the games besides Caius Cosades is a loser, and he's a sugar tooth who pulls out of Morrowind right when you need him.

So except for the hero of Daggerfall, the nerevarine, the hero of Kvatch, and possibly the Dragonborn, the Blades really aren't that impressive.

But thats a little off topic.

Every Thalmor we've met in-game is all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

You're gonna have to try harder than that to claim that the rest of the Thalmor back home are as pure as snow.

Ondolemar from Markarth was actually very decent Thalmor who was just doing his job, making sure no one is worshipping Talos secretly, and as that he thanks you when you decide to assist him and is always kind after when seing you.

So, Ondolemar is politely all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

At least he's polite about it, right?

ArvenAldmeri

VaranisArano wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yawn, Empire lackeys never research the motifs of others before they spread things. If you had empathy for the Altmer and why they do what they do, you would not say such things.

But we only see someone who is portraied as evil and don't question their motifs and background. We just accept and assume they are evil without further evidence.

No offense, but I saw all the evidence I needed of 4th Era Thalmor evil in Northwatch Keep. And the basement of the Thalmor Embassy. And Elenwen's office. And Ancano's attempt to destroy the world. And the entire plot of the TES Legends game with Naarifin.

I mean, unless we are getting into "well, the Thalmor think they are the good guy's" mind games, I'm pretty sure the in-game evidence is on the side of the Thalmor are torturing genocide-supporting, racial supremacist scum who want to become aedra or destroy the world trying.

Which is why you are wrong. Both Naarifin and Ancano acted on their own, without order or permission of the Thalmor, they merely exploited their position within the Thalmor.
If we judge the actions of individuals, we could also say that all blades are loosers, because they allowed Mehrunes Dagon to devastate Tamriel etc.

Honestly, between Jauffre losing the Amulet of Kings, Baurus and the other Blades failing to save Uriel Septim, the Hero of Kvatch having to do everything, Esbern being practically useless and Delphine wanting me to kill Paarthurnax...

Every Blade I've met in the games besides Caius Cosades is a loser, and he's a sugar tooth who pulls out of Morrowind right when you need him.

So except for the hero of Daggerfall, the nerevarine, the hero of Kvatch, and possibly the Dragonborn, the Blades really aren't that impressive.

But thats a little off topic.

Every Thalmor we've met in-game is all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

You're gonna have to try harder than that to claim that the rest of the Thalmor back home are as pure as snow.

Ondolemar from Markarth was actually very decent Thalmor who was just doing his job, making sure no one is worshipping Talos secretly, and as that he thanks you when you decide to assist him and is always kind after when seing you.

So, Ondolemar is politely all for supporting a regime that condones torture, racial supremacy, religious suppression, and genocide.

At least he's polite about it, right?

You really know nothing, dont you?