Recremen wrote: »

@Voxicity

Bunches of words generally have meaning. It sounds like you would rather ignore what I'm saying than actually grapple with the topic.

Speaking of meaning, "freedom of speech" is a well-defined term, and you aren't using it correctly. People are free to speak on the forums, and we're free to end our association with them if it's out of line with the rules we all agreed to adhere to while using the service. That's the whole point of that "bunch of words" I used in the first post. The government has everything to do with it, as they're the only ones who can impinge upon your freedom of speech.

Well, you are half right.

A better definition of Freedom of speech (not to be confused with the right to free speech) is "their ability" to state any opinions without censorship or restraint.

Much like freedom is the ability or capability to take action in anyway one desires limited only by their own physical or mental capacity.

The Rights of Individual Freedom are restricted by the society or community to which they belong and therefore are not a true representation of freedom.

For example, any person is free to go next door and kill their neighbor provided they have the physical or mental capability to do so. However, most societies restrict this freedom through the use of the law. If one does not obey these restrictions then they are placed in jail where their "ability" to take such actions against the populace is removed.


So freedom is the ability while the rights to enact such abilities are dictated by the society or community.

As far as these forums are concerned ZoS is the head of the society that dictates what rights will and will not be given or restricted.


Where speech is concerned ZoS decided that it would be better to restrict some of our ability right out the gate by directly censoring particular words through a filter. Those words will not show up if typed into these forums so for some words we do not even possess the ability to use in these forums.

Zos has also "defined" our rights to speech according to the guidelines posted in the community rules. If we choose to ignore those restrictions then through the use of forum banning we will lose our ability to express any ideas through these forums.

Any restriction, censorship, moderation, removal or alteration of one's ideas that were expressed through text is not free speech.

It is instead moderated and restricted speech and rightfully so as ZoS owns the site and hopes to maintain a healthy community.

I fully support these guidelines as ZoS is the governing body of this community and I must accept them in order to make use of the rights which they have provided me.

So no the "rights" that ZoS gives us in the use of their forums is not freedom of speech but restricted speech and it is ZoS, not the government that rules on what is appropriate and what isn't in these forums.

I agree.

Compare that to reddit... which is a blind democracy rather than a (quasi)meritocracy like we have here... I've had PvP vids downvoted b/c i'm EP and the downvoter is DC lol. I have people tell me i'm wrong and downvote me for things that are clearly true... i just can't stand the reddit community due to the way reddit is more of a "do they like what you're saying" place than a "is what you're saying correct"

thank god these forums are good.

Now if only I could name and shame... that would be great

[edited to remove comment]

Aesthier wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

@Voxicity

Bunches of words generally have meaning. It sounds like you would rather ignore what I'm saying than actually grapple with the topic.

Speaking of meaning, "freedom of speech" is a well-defined term, and you aren't using it correctly. People are free to speak on the forums, and we're free to end our association with them if it's out of line with the rules we all agreed to adhere to while using the service. That's the whole point of that "bunch of words" I used in the first post. The government has everything to do with it, as they're the only ones who can impinge upon your freedom of speech.

Well, you are half right.

A better definition of Freedom of speech (not to be confused with the right to free speech) is "their ability" to state any opinions without censorship or restraint.

Much like freedom is the ability or capability to take action in anyway one desires limited only by their own physical or mental capacity.

The Rights of Individual Freedom are restricted by the society or community to which they belong and therefore are not a true representation of freedom.

For example, any person is free to go next door and kill their neighbor provided they have the physical or mental capability to do so. However, most societies restrict this freedom through the use of the law. If one does not obey these restrictions then they are placed in jail where their "ability" to take such actions against the populace is removed.


So freedom is the ability while the rights to enact such abilities are dictated by the society or community.

As far as these forums are concerned ZoS is the head of the society that dictates what rights will and will not be given or restricted.


Where speech is concerned ZoS decided that it would be better to restrict some of our ability right out the gate by directly censoring particular words through a filter. Those words will not show up if typed into these forums so for some words we do not even possess the ability to use in these forums.

Zos has also "defined" our rights to speech according to the guidelines posted in the community rules. If we choose to ignore those restrictions then through the use of forum banning we will lose our ability to express any ideas through these forums.

Any restriction, censorship, moderation, removal or alteration of one's ideas that were expressed through text is not free speech.

It is instead moderated and restricted speech and rightfully so as ZoS owns the site and hopes to maintain a healthy community.

I fully support these guidelines as ZoS is the governing body of this community and I must accept them in order to make use of the rights which they have provided me.

So no the "rights" that ZoS gives us in the use of their forums is not freedom of speech but restricted speech and it is ZoS, not the government that rules on what is appropriate and what isn't in these forums.

@Aesthier

That's not a better definition of free speech, and near as I can tell you have completely invented a separation between "freedom of speech" and "the right to free speech". I've never read of any such distinction, and even gave you the benefit of the doubt and did a thorough search to try to find it referenced literally anywhere. Unfortunately, it appears to be a complete fabrication. Similarly, I don't know of and can't find anything on "The Rights of Individual Freedom". Are you referring to individual liberties?

In any case, while it's true that one definition of freedom involves the ability to act "without hindrance or restraint", it's completely facile to be using that definition as a basis for argument, and reprehensible to be advocating for any kind of freedom that meets those criteria. Either we're using the definitions of freedom in the context of some relevant legal system administered by the state, or you are literally, in your own words, advocating for people's freedom to "go next door and kill their neighbor". To reiterate, your definition is one of the existing valid definitions of the word, but it's not the only one and the implications are horrendous if that's the one you want to use as your argumentative basis.

It is absolutely farcical to paint ZOS as the head of society here, or as in any way dictating rights. Rights are granted through the power of the state, and if ZOS was in any way impinging on those rights they would be opening themselves up to legal repercussions. For an example of the limits on their power, if they broke laws regarding the freedom of association by having some sort of a race requirement for community participation, then people would have grounds to open up a lawsuit. Instead, what ZOS is doing is outlining the community rules that we agree to. They abide by the existing social laws, and so failure to meet those rules is, as I stated already, best viewed through the lens of the freedom of association.

You're right regarding it being their website, of course. We can also view this through the lens of private property rights and laws. But under no circumstances are the impinging on our freedom of speech. We all chose to join this community under the contract that we would follow the community rules. We are restricting our own speech when we choose to use this communication platform. As soon as we choose not to restrict our speech, the community stops choosing to associate with us. It's really not as authoritarian as some folks are trying to make it sound.

These forums are better than some other MMO forums out there. Mods here can be tough but have been doing well lately.

Thogard wrote: »

Now if only I could name and shame... that would be great

Past events on these forums have proven name and shame rules are there for a very good reason.

False accusations or misinformation leading to condemnation or witch hunting of innocent players shouldn't be a thing we desire on the forums.

If there are issues with a specific player then it's better not not bring the dirty laundry onto the forums, keep it within your group or report it to ZOS if it's an issue which breaks their rules.

Path of Exile has the best forum i've ever seen. Their care-o-meter is always at zero point about everything. Someone hate? Latest patch broke balance? Someone disagree with everyone? The whole community don't give a [snip] about it.

[Edited to remove profanity]

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

There's a difference between free speech and openly bashing or unconstructively criticizing. We do have community rules in place for a reason.

Disagree. And who moderates the moderators..

DanteYoda wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

There's a difference between free speech and openly bashing or unconstructively criticizing. We do have community rules in place for a reason.

Disagree. And who moderates the moderators..

ZOS staff, Gina and Jessica would be the main ones to speak with should you have issues.
I don't think it's often that the mods are in the wrong though, most of the people who scream foul at them (at least in public) generally have rather telling posting histories or don't seem to understand the basics of respectful constructive posting.

The warnings I've had have never been unwarranted, so I am speaking from personal experience.

The golden rule of a place such as this is, perhaps yes, only to say what you would still be prepared to say if you were near enough to see the tips of the other writers ears.

Perhaps this is not a bad rule of writing generally ...

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Voxicity wrote: »

Because the ESO forums are heavily censored and free speech doesn't exist on them

Some would consider that a good thing, others not

But it is what it is

Free speech on the internet doesn't exist generally and is an illusion. Its their community and thus their rules.

Expecting anything better or more than that is simply silly.

Didn't want to post this but truth is:

Because we are simply awesome (heh!)

and we have people such as Santie Claws or Gina herself who make the forum experience even more awesome.

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The forum has some good moderation which keeps threads which are too much troll/rant/edgy from sticking around.

There are still a large number of stupid threads with people making personal attacks on the community (players and devs) or ranting for the sake of ranting but for the most part if you're not asking ignorant or demanding on the forums people will engage your with respectful debates.

This.

Although ESO-community is still garbage.

i don't think the community's garbage. maybe you're confusing the Official Forums with the general community, but i find some great folks in other ESO forums and in-game. i'm not trying to talk *** here either, but i think some people know when they're being disingenuous. tough to believe the other 5 servers are pervasively toxic when someone like me can make friends on an Xbox

EDIT: oh wait, i neglected to say that i do have crushes on some of you folks here, i'm just reluctant to flirt with you in light of the current climate.

Oompuh wrote: »

Please, there's less toxicity in Chernobyl.

That's true, it's more radioactivity there.