moved

Kelces · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

As long as there is no third party profiting, it is allowed. All value stays in the game and hence property of ZoS, no problem.

sylviermoone · May 2018

No, it is not allowed

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

danno8 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

The problem of course is that ZoS has now muddied the water with the gifting system. If you can officially gift an item to someone (an item that has real world value), how now do you prevent or monitor if that recipient sends anything back to the gifter, and if you do monitor that, how do you know for sure it was in response to that gift and not simply gold being sent for any other reason.

If you receive a gift from someone are you never allowed to send gold to that person again? Is there a time limit?

It was fairly obvious before as ZoS could state "Anything you buy with real money, you can not sell for gold in game." But now they have sanctioned a system that allows you to give items purchased with real money to other people in game.

IMO ZoS should not have waded into this territory if they do not like the idea of people swapping out store bought items for gold. By allowing gifting they have enabled this type of behaviour to take place all within the confines of their own game. No third party sites required.

Sevalaricgirl · May 2018

No, it is not allowed

If it was allowed, they'd do it like GW2 where they have control. It wouldn't be a personal exchange.

sylviermoone · May 2018

No, it is not allowed

danno8 wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

The problem of course is that ZoS has now muddied the water with the gifting system. If you can officially gift an item to someone (an item that has real world value), how now do you prevent or monitor if that recipient sends anything back to the gifter, and if you do monitor that, how do you know for sure it was in response to that gift and not simply gold being sent for any other reason.

If you receive a gift from someone are you never allowed to send gold to that person again? Is there a time limit?

It was fairly obvious before as ZoS could state "Anything you buy with real money, you can not sell for gold in game." But now they have sanctioned a system that allows you to give items purchased with real money to other people in game.

IMO ZoS should not have waded into this territory if they do not like the idea of people swapping out store bought items for gold. By allowing gifting they have enabled this type of behaviour to take place all within the confines of their own game. No third party sites required.

Seems to me that if they intended for people to trade gold for crown store items, they'd have added some support to make sure people weren't getting scammed, no?

ZOS created a system that allows people to GIVE an item to a player. As a gift, not a item for gold trade. As they have not stated that their official stance on trading items worth real world money for in game currency has changed, I'm going to stick with their last publicly announced position on this topic.

Colecovision · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

It would be clearer if ZoS would offer me cash for my unused crowns. That would give them a real world value. As it is, crowns have no real world value. A time card can be legally sold with no violations of any kind. It's worth money. It's still outside the game. My crowns are locked to my account and have no value outside of eso. Like gold, they are an in game possession.

jaws343 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

There are far too many systems in place to possibly police this if it weren't allowed.

Player 1 can gift an item. Player 1 can then list a worthless item in a guild store for whatever the gold cost is for the item gifted. Player 2 can buy that item. Or, player 2 deposits the gold into a guild bank and player 2 withdraws it.

And on the idea that crown store items have monetary value, they do not. Crowns costs real money. But once you buy a crown, it is worth 0 real life dollars. Crown store items are essentially worhtless.

sylviermoone · May 2018

No, it is not allowed

Colecovision wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

It would be clearer if ZoS would offer me cash for my unused crowns. That would give them a real world value. As it is, crowns have no real world value. A time card can be legally sold with no violations of any kind. It's worth money. It's still outside the game. My crowns are locked to my account and have no value outside of eso. Like gold, they are an in game possession.

I mean, you purchase crowns with real world money, even if you get them because of ESO plus. They have real world value, just like a crown code or game time code.

I wish this wasn't the case, I would really have loved to give a limited time mount or something out as a raffle prize. My guild GM account has loads of unused crowns. However, I believe that ZOS's previously stated position clearly shows that they would view this as an act of gold selling and a violation of the TOS, and personally, I'm not going to risk it.

Cously · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

They had to see it coming and didn't post any warning in the patch notes as far as I know. Such as:

You are now able to gift friends any crown store items. But you must know sell them, etc.

DoctorESO · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

.

Syncronaut · May 2018

No, it is not allowed

Here is the problem.

1) Gold seller steals some credit cards and makes new accounts
2) He uses this money to buy crowns in mass
3) Advertises crown items for gold on his site
4) Makes a contact with that player that sells gold to them and they recive a gift
5) Gold sellers moves that player gold to another account for savekeeping
6) Fraud is called at the credit card company and that goldseller account gets banned
7) Player who got the item gifted also gets banned
8) Gold seller sells the gold to other players making proft

There is also a small workaraund with 3000 crown codes to avoid ban and this is by buying codes from 3th party websites with credit card.

What they have to do with crown gifting is this:
Lock any new accounts buying crowns for gifts by 30 days at least (so they cant gift).

How can this be fixed?
I have no idea, but i know one thing. Current gifting needs to go away as its trash and risky.

A wildstar token system would probaly be much better (you trow a token on market and other players can buy it for platium currency and you can only buy limited ammount)
3000 crown gift token on store (not player store, npc one that gives out the best price )

Karmanorway · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

I hope so, then i can finally finish my guildhall with all set stations and retire from the game

Olupajmibanan · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

Syncronaut wrote: »

What they have to do with crown gifting is this:
Lock any new accounts buying crowns for gifts by 30 days at least (so they cant gift).

Actually, you can use gifting system only if 30 days passed since your first Crown Packs or ESO+ purchase.

And I am not against selling crown items for gold. I never buy dungeon DLCs (they are worth 500 crowns max IMO) and I would like to buy them with gold.

srfrogg23 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

I can only imagine that they would expect people to do it by allowing cash shop items to be gifted. Buyer beware though.

bg22 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

Does it affect you?

Then who cares..?

Tandor · May 2018

Kelces wrote: »

As long as there is no third party profiting, it is allowed. All value stays in the game and hence property of ZoS, no problem.

That rather begs the question of where the gold used to buy the gifted item comes from. If people simply buy the gold then the gold seller does indeed represent "third party profiting" and the whole transaction is RMT-based.

Cpt_Teemo · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

Tandor wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

As long as there is no third party profiting, it is allowed. All value stays in the game and hence property of ZoS, no problem.

That rather begs the question of where the gold used to buy the gifted item comes from. If people simply buy the gold then the gold seller does indeed represent "third party profiting" and the whole transaction is RMT-based.

I believe every "Gifting" system is just a placeholder for "RMT" system in any game that has this in.

danno8 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

sylviermoone wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

The problem of course is that ZoS has now muddied the water with the gifting system. If you can officially gift an item to someone (an item that has real world value), how now do you prevent or monitor if that recipient sends anything back to the gifter, and if you do monitor that, how do you know for sure it was in response to that gift and not simply gold being sent for any other reason.

If you receive a gift from someone are you never allowed to send gold to that person again? Is there a time limit?

It was fairly obvious before as ZoS could state "Anything you buy with real money, you can not sell for gold in game." But now they have sanctioned a system that allows you to give items purchased with real money to other people in game.

IMO ZoS should not have waded into this territory if they do not like the idea of people swapping out store bought items for gold. By allowing gifting they have enabled this type of behaviour to take place all within the confines of their own game. No third party sites required.

Seems to me that if they intended for people to trade gold for crown store items, they'd have added some support to make sure people weren't getting scammed, no?

People can get scammed by trades right now. You can remove your item after the person you are trading with clicks "confirm", then confirm it yourself and the trade will go through. Not the best system, and not how I would gauge what is allowed and not allowed.

ZOS created a system that allows people to GIVE an item to a player. As a gift, not a item for gold trade. As they have not stated that their official stance on trading items worth real world money for in game currency has changed, I'm going to stick with their last publicly announced position on this topic.

And if that person sends them a little gold as a thank you...banhammer? Or are we now suppose to figure out motives with trades?

danno8 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

DoctorESO wrote: »

If it's not allowed, where do we draw the line? Can we gift crowns in exchange for an in-game item (not gold)? What about in exchange for a vAS HM run? What about as a "tip" for a group helping you get a DLC dungeon skin?

Exactly. If they don't want it happening, then fine. But they should know they have opened the floodgates with the gifting system and I hope they are prepared to do a huge amount of policing if they are going to stop people wanting to trade Crown items for Gold.

Like 10x the amount of policing (just made up that figure) they spend on monitoring bots.

Waffennacht · May 2018

I don't see how you prevent getting ripped off

bg22 · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

danno8 wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

The problem of course is that ZoS has now muddied the water with the gifting system. If you can officially gift an item to someone (an item that has real world value), how now do you prevent or monitor if that recipient sends anything back to the gifter, and if you do monitor that, how do you know for sure it was in response to that gift and not simply gold being sent for any other reason.

If you receive a gift from someone are you never allowed to send gold to that person again? Is there a time limit?

It was fairly obvious before as ZoS could state "Anything you buy with real money, you can not sell for gold in game." But now they have sanctioned a system that allows you to give items purchased with real money to other people in game.

IMO ZoS should not have waded into this territory if they do not like the idea of people swapping out store bought items for gold. By allowing gifting they have enabled this type of behaviour to take place all within the confines of their own game. No third party sites required.

Seems to me that if they intended for people to trade gold for crown store items, they'd have added some support to make sure people weren't getting scammed, no?

People can get scammed by trades right now. You can remove your item after the person you are trading with clicks "confirm", then confirm it yourself and the trade will go through. Not the best system, and not how I would gauge what is allowed and not..

Yup, I got scammed for about 100k when I first started playing on XboxNA.

EvilCroc · May 2018

I do not know, really. I hope it is allowed.
I can gift someone a Crown Item.
Someone can gift me gold.
Just gifting. Nothing criminal.

Eyro · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

Colecovision wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

It would be clearer if ZoS would offer me cash for my unused crowns. That would give them a real world value. As it is, crowns have no real world value. A time card can be legally sold with no violations of any kind. It's worth money. It's still outside the game. My crowns are locked to my account and have no value outside of eso. Like gold, they are an in game possession.

Sort of the way I look at it. If you want to say the gamble crates aren’t gambling, because nothing in them has a real world value. You can’t then turn around and say oh but these items have a real world value.If these items have a real world value, then the gamble crates are gambling.

It can’t be both ways.

sylviermoone · May 2018

No, it is not allowed

danno8 wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i wish it was allowed and i had plans to buy crowns for people and Make "Good Gold Fast" but, sadly, zenimax has not told us if it is allowed or Not allowed and i have found when THAT question arrises it is allways the "no it's not allowed" is the answer.
in addition to that, i saw this post and it made me realize it is infact a very bad idea ...

QUOTE:

@sylviermoone wrote: »
Interestingly, ZOS has already made a ruling on a similar case. A few years ago, people would donate items like game time cards, base game codes and rare pet codes to Guild Leaders for use as auction items and/or raffle prizes. ZOS decided this practice was against TOS, and sent warning mails and even handed out temporary bans for some. Some less scrupulous GM's would report other GM'S for this a day or so before bids closed as a way to grief them, since a banned GM wouldn't be able to log on and ensure that their guild got a kiosk that week. This was back when most GM's dropped their full bid for the week in the seconds before bids closed in order to not get bid-spied.

Anyway, ZOS's reasoning for disallowing this was that this practice is technically gold selling. When you exchange an item that has real world monetary value for in game currency, you are participating in an act of gold selling and violating TOS according to their own interpretation of the TOS.

I do think that for clarity's sake, ZOS should officially announce that they view crown item-to-gold trades in this light, as gold selling and a violation of TOS. If they do not, they should remove the restriction that would cause a GM to get a warning or temp ban for auctioning or raffling crown store items. Either way, it is incredibly important that ZOS is consistent in how it interprets its own TOS.

END QUOTE:

Conclusion:
we will just have to wait for another way to earn ingame gold easily for those of us who live perminanty in cryodiil.
i just hope one day we could sell crown store items for gold as that would make life a whole lot easier for us pvp only players.
but right now it does look like it was not intended and might get you a ban if attempt it.

so, be wise, and don't do it.

@dwemer_paleologist beat me to it!

In the past, person A would buy a game time card and gift it to person B. Person B would then sell it in a guild auction or use it as a raffle prize. Person B would then get a warning or a ban.

ZOS HAS officially said that if you participate in a transaction that trades in game currency for an item that has real world monetary value, you are participating in an act of gold selling. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

The problem of course is that ZoS has now muddied the water with the gifting system. If you can officially gift an item to someone (an item that has real world value), how now do you prevent or monitor if that recipient sends anything back to the gifter, and if you do monitor that, how do you know for sure it was in response to that gift and not simply gold being sent for any other reason.

If you receive a gift from someone are you never allowed to send gold to that person again? Is there a time limit?

It was fairly obvious before as ZoS could state "Anything you buy with real money, you can not sell for gold in game." But now they have sanctioned a system that allows you to give items purchased with real money to other people in game.

IMO ZoS should not have waded into this territory if they do not like the idea of people swapping out store bought items for gold. By allowing gifting they have enabled this type of behaviour to take place all within the confines of their own game. No third party sites required.

Seems to me that if they intended for people to trade gold for crown store items, they'd have added some support to make sure people weren't getting scammed, no?

People can get scammed by trades right now. You can remove your item after the person you are trading with clicks "confirm", then confirm it yourself and the trade will go through. Not the best system, and not how I would gauge what is allowed and not allowed.

ZOS created a system that allows people to GIVE an item to a player. As a gift, not a item for gold trade. As they have not stated that their official stance on trading items worth real world money for in game currency has changed, I'm going to stick with their last publicly announced position on this topic.

And if that person sends them a little gold as a thank you...banhammer? Or are we now suppose to figure out motives with trades?

I want to be clear that I'm not defending this policy. I'm simply saying that if the question is "is this allowed?" the answer is no, based on ZOS's previously stated position on how they interpret their own TOS. Should it be allowed? Why not, if that means I can use excess crowns from my GM account to buy something and give out as a raffle prize. My guild members help pay for the ESO plus on that account, and giving back to them in that way would be super.

However, I'm not willing to put my account on the line to test this out. ZOS has made their position clear in the past, and for me, personally, until and unless ZOS explicitly states that they have changed their position, I'm going to presume that their previous interpretation stands.

There is a lot of confusion around this in the community, and I think that ZOS needs to make their position totally clear, and consistently enforce their own rules. All I was trying to do here was shed some light on how ZOS has previously perceived this sort of transaction .

Kelces · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

Tandor wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

As long as there is no third party profiting, it is allowed. All value stays in the game and hence property of ZoS, no problem.

That rather begs the question of where the gold used to buy the gifted item comes from. If people simply buy the gold then the gold seller does indeed represent "third party profiting" and the whole transaction is RMT-based.

This is a whole different story and is irrelevant to the trade - gold for crowns. That would have to be judged on seperately and case by case.

Xoelarasizerer · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

If gifted crown store items can be traded as an inventory item that can be opened (like a runebox) through proper player in-game trades between the crown store item and gold at same time.

Nothing as potentially skeevy as "ill bite you and then afterwards you promise to give me money or you give me money and then i promise i'll bite you." business that could put potentially put irl cash on the line of being scammed away.

Elsonso · May 2018

Well, the answer to the poll question is that it is PROHIBITED. Says so in the ToS plain as day.

Q: In your analysis of the rules, is it okay to trade gold for crowns and vice versa?
A: ZeniMax prohibits, and does not recognize any purported, transfers, sales, gifts, or trades of Virtual Currency.

Most people are answering the question about whether a virtual item purchased with Crowns can be exchanged for gold. That answer seems to "YES", because we can exchange virtual items in the game as long as it does not take place in the real world.

Oddly enough, Crown Store items appear to be treated by the ToS no differently than bait you get from some flower. They are just in-game virtual property, owned by ZOS, and have no monetary value. ToS places no restrictions on in-game transfer of such items.

This is how it looks per my reading and analysis.

Tandor · May 2018

Kelces wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

As long as there is no third party profiting, it is allowed. All value stays in the game and hence property of ZoS, no problem.

That rather begs the question of where the gold used to buy the gifted item comes from. If people simply buy the gold then the gold seller does indeed represent "third party profiting" and the whole transaction is RMT-based.

This is a whole different story and is irrelevant to the trade - gold for crowns. That would have to be judged on seperately and case by case.

Not necessarily so, as developers will follow the trail of illicit gold and establish where it ends up - in this case, in the account of crown store customers. Players who sell items for purchased gold won't necessarily avoid detection and a note on their account, or action against that account. At the very least, players need to be aware of the risk, not least if there is no clear statement from ZOS that permitted "gifting" also includes permitted "selling for gold".

Tyrobag · May 2018

Its 100% Goldselling, which is against the ToS, but its also not something ZoS can do anything about now that they've introduced the gifting system.

Eyro · May 2018

Yes, it is allowed

Tyrobag wrote: »

Its 100% Goldselling, which is against the ToS, but its also not something ZoS can do anything about now that they've introduced the gifting system.

This is the road I think they will take, Since it is the easiest. They will come out and say yes it is against the rules, then never do anything about it since it makes them money.

This way they get the reward and don’t have to deal with any problems that come of it since after all it is against the rules.

People who say this is no different then gold selling are missing the point. In gold selling who ends up with the money? The gold sellers. In a gifting scenario who ends up with the money? Zos. Which is why one will be punished and not the other.

I suppose they could come up with a secure trade system for this and make it all above board, but they have never really shown much interest in making the ui better or more useable and once you go down that road you have to support the problems that arise from it.

So no I think they will say it is a no-no. Or they will do what they are doing now. Say nothing at all, and leave it up to the players.