moved

Pixel_Zealot

Yes, it is allowed

It's allowed. People are trading virtual items for virtual items and ZO$ is getting the cash.

But don't go crying when you get scammed though, there's no safety net to avoid that.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

There isn't anything in the store or in game, that are beyond my own ability to get, that would cause me to be on either end of these "RMT" transactions.

Am I bothered by botters selling in game items for IRL money? Yes, these people have no interest in the game just your money. ZOS get no cash.

Would I be bothered with people making huge amounts of gold from selling crown items? Depends what evil plans they have. ZOS get cash.

Would I be bothered if people could gift Crown items to loved ones/friends/family? No, why would I?

If there isn't already, then ZOS need to put a limit on how many items can be gifted per month. Maybe they should not introduce gifting at all, it's clearly a step down a dark path.

Skayaq

Yes, it is allowed

technically allowed, but engage at your own risk (aka don't come crying when you lose all your gold)

SixVoltCar

No, it is not allowed

DoctorESO wrote: »

We don't have an official answer from ZOS, so I want to hear what everyone's take on the rules are. Not what you think *should* be the rule, but what you think *is* the rule based on your interpretation of the existing TOS, policies, etc.

If you had to select either yes or no.

It's RWT.

Also, as soon as games implement this, the botting gets so bad that the economy is effectively ruined, which leads to a situation of pay to win by way of inability to produce in-game currency for any person who participates in the real world. And those bots kill servers which causes people to leave which causes less demand for the botted goods, which compounds the problem further.

If it is (which I doubt), it shouldn't ever be. Don't cite me GW2, because that thing is a prime example.

Maryal

It obviously goes against the spirit of the rules, otherwise the topic itself wouldn't be an issue. Also, the poll should have had an 'other' option since this is a 'grey area' ... just saying.

Zinaroth

Yes, it is allowed

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

I don't see them saying it isn't allowed so, yes it is. They know people are going to do it anyway, they're just gonna see if they can use it to their advantage. Allow some to do it and ban ones they dont like.

Exactly this. They will wait and see if people accept it or not.
If it backfires on them they will just go out in a couple of weeks and ban some accounts to save public face and maintain public relations.
Exactly like the Bleaker's event.
I would most definitely wait until they are forced to make a statement about it.
You never know if it might backfire on you.
I would however say that, yes it is allowed under the current rules, but so was Bleaker's flipping back in the day, and people kept making forums posts about it, and ZOS remained silent for two weeks until they finally were forced to take action because it got so widespread and a lot of people were angry with it.
ZOS is very controlled by public opinion so expect to get penalized for doing this if they some time in the near future decides it's not okay, despite there not being clear rules about it right now.

smacky

No, it is not allowed

I say no I don;t beleive it is allowed, because it literally is trading In Game Gold for Real Money (The only way to obtain crowns).

Selling in game gold for real money is against the TOS, as such it IS against the TOS to trade them for crowns.

Should it be allowed? No!

Should items which can be gifted from the crown store be marketable instead of bound - YES!

And this would solve the problem, without benefiting the botters, which is why trading in game currency for real money is against the TOS.

sylviermoone

No, it is not allowed

Eyro wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Its 100% Goldselling, which is against the ToS, but its also not something ZoS can do anything about now that they've introduced the gifting system.

This is the road I think they will take, Since it is the easiest. They will come out and say yes it is against the rules, then never do anything about it since it makes them money.

This way they get the reward and don’t have to deal with any problems that come of it since after all it is against the rules.

And this is absolutely what they SHOULD NOT do. To say it is against the rules, but then do nothing about it, is absolutely the wrong message to send. What's the point of the rule if it isn't going to be enforced? I'm not saying I agree with the interpretation that this should be considered an act of gold selling, but if that is the way they've decided to interpret it, they should stand by and enforce that interpretation. If they plan to not enforce it, then it shouldn't be the rule. The easiest way to do a thing is rarely the correct way.

Eyro wrote: »

People who say this is no different then gold selling are missing the point. In gold selling who ends up with the money? The gold sellers. In a gifting scenario who ends up with the money? Zos. Which is why one will be punished and not the other.

Again, I don't agree with the current interpretation by ZOS, but I think you might be missing the point a little. In ZOS's current interpretation of what is considered gold selling, exchanging anything that has a real world monetary value for in game currency is gold selling. If I buy a crown pack, and then give the code for said crown pack to someone who then sells it in a guild auction OR uses it as a raffle prize, the person I gave that code to has participated in an act of gold selling. I've had members try and donate codes for base games to use as a raffle prize, and as much as I would like to accept it, I can't. Because ZOS has made it clear that in the act of accepting gold for that game code, I have become a gold seller.

The tl;dr here is that it hasn't mattered if a third party profits. Even in cases where no one has profited, ZOS has still called it gold selling.

Eyro wrote: »

I suppose they could come up with a secure trade system for this and make it all above board, but they have never really shown much interest in making the ui better or more useable and once you go down that road you have to support the problems that arise from it.

And this is what should happen if ZOS intends for players to use the system in this way. It needs to be supported and reasonably secure, or they should stick with their original interpretation of their own rules and enforce them. An ounce of prevention, and all that. Seems like it's less a waste of valuable time. I don't even want to think about the tickets support will get because of this.

Eyro wrote: »

So no I think they will say it is a no-no. Or they will do what they are doing now. Say nothing at all, and leave it up to the players.

And again, this is what I see as a big problem, because what we have is a partial system that allows for people to use it in a way that may not be intended, and is certainly at odds with how they have interpreted their TOS to date. This interpretation should be either enforced with consequence, or repudiated and reversed. From where things are right now, it appears as if they may want to reserve the right to enforce this rule sporadically rather than uniformly.

Personally, I think the current interpretation is a bit heavy handed, but if it is what they are sticking with it shouldn't be applied subjectively.

RANKK7

Yes, it is allowed

To me, it seems to be allowed since they stay silent on the matter despite threads appeared asking for clarification, it's like they are saying: "do whatever you want people, we don't give a damn as long your cash is flowing in the Store".

What I'm sure about is that it's disgusting there is no official word yet on the matter.
I could guess about two cases: they are totally careless (so we are talking of incompetence at its best) or they are acting mala fide, ready to deny any responsibility if someone get scammed (no official word so no obligation to refund scammed players or punish scammers, in the meantime the cash flows).

They really should say something about this.

NovaMarx

Yes, it is allowed

I personally couldn't care less if people want to trade Crowns/gold. But my two main issues are the chat spamming and the possibility of people being scammed (especially minors, who don't always know better - even though they should).

I would/have NEVER personally done it, and have unfortunately seen it go wrong too many times (in other games), but to each their own.

GarnetFire17

I don't like the pay to win aspect of it. However, if wanted to start a drive to say add mundus stones to My guild's guildhouse I would feel better if I could compensate them with gold. However, there are other ways to compensate the donors. I would say if they are going to allow the gifts they should say trading for game gold is fine. It's pay to win but oh well. They aren't going to be able to enforce it well. They might as well just come out and say it's okay. ZOS pretty much already sold out, time to just admit it. jmo.

Aeslief

My personal feeling is that gifting for gold goes against the intention of the system if not the letter of the ToS, but that ZOS is fully aware that players will use it to swap gold for crowns. It will hopefully mean increased crown sales so ZOS will not officially prohibit it, nor will they officially allow it and will offer no recompense for ‘scams’ perpetrated by either side. Not a very honorable stance to take but probably a profitable one. They won’t forbid it, or if they forbid it they won’t enforce it, but they won’t take action against scammers either. Honestly I hope I’m wrong and they officially say trading is permitted, but imagining the avalanche of scam complaints that will follow I don’t see they have any motivation to do so.

CHIMCHIMCheree

In my analysis of the letter of the rules, it's a supported behaviour.

In my analysis of ZOS conduct in failing to provide clarification, there's a significant chance that they'll exercise their right to apply arbitrary bans regardless of the letter of the rules and are leaving themselves the option of doing so if necessary.

Lord_Ninka

One thing is what the rules strictly speaking are saying if you like that legal hairsplitting. Another thing is, well, do you really expect ZOS to bring out the banhammer if all the real money involved in such a trade ends up in their coffer?

No way they're gonna ban people for spending real money in their store and gifting crown items or for receiving crown gifts after someone else spent real money in their store, even if something else, like gold, is "gifted" back.

Lady_of_Tamarah

NOT SURE

Firstly, If ZOS gets paid for the crowns originally I don't see a problem.

There will always be (and are) those that will exploit other players by selling anything within the game for extortionate prices it depends on how desperately the buyer wants those items and whether they are willing to pay the in game gold for them.

Now gifting is in the game it will be harder for ZOS to detect or prove the practise of selling crowns for in game gold even if it is a banning offence

I don't see a problem if one player wants to help another by selling them crowns for some in-game gold. The other side of the coin is however: Is it ethical to extort another player by overcharging the amount of gold in exchange for crowns ?

Personally I won't pay extortionate gold prices that I have seen on some guild traders selling lists for other goods but that's just me

Namarkas

Yes, it is allowed

As far as I understand it, it is allowed. However there are 2 things to consider here:
1) from the ZOS terms of service:
Virtual Currency is not transferable to, or redeemable for, any sum of real currency or monetary value from ZeniMax or any other person at any time. ZeniMax prohibits, and does not recognize any purported, transfers, sales, gifts, or trades of Virtual Currency.
However, we do not gift currency. We gift items OBTAINED BY SPENDING that currency. So technically, that point is no problem.

2)from the ESO EULA, which overrides the TOS if it is conflicting.
You agree that you will not and will not assist any other person, under any circumstances:
exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Game Client, for any commercial purpose (including without limitation renting, leasing or licensing the Game to others), including without limitation (a) for gathering Virtual Currency (as defined in the ZeniMax Terms of Service), items or resources for sale outside the Game; or (b) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling;
that bold part imo has to be read as "gathering virtual currency ....,items or ressources for sale outside the game". As there is no 3rd party involved, and you are spending INGAME cash (no outside transfer), there is no problem again.

I think the important point is really that you are not buying crowns with gold, but items out of the crownstore. So whether or not you think it should be allowed, I think it is allowed according to the current rules

(EDIT: 1) is especially not applicable imo, bc if it were, the whole system would be illegal to use. That would be a new level even for ZOS )

Aebaradath

No, it is not allowed

This reminds me of a topic I saw on Warfram'e forum...

"We can use platinum to buy credits, so why can't we do it the other way around?"

SluggoV2

Yes, it is allowed

ToS seem to me to refer to any items outside of the current ZOS in game offerings.

As sited by a few people in this thread, the examples are of using items acquired outside of the game (codes, etc.) and trading them by using a work around (emailing code, etc.). It seems trading for crowns will be acceptable under the ToS as long as the existing game mechanics are used as intended.

If you are unable to trade using those mechanics, I would not risk the consequence.

Peekachu99

Yes, it is allowed

If they made it so that you had to gift the items COD (with a zero balance if sending to a friend, obviously), it would be a perfectly implemented solution for in-game currency transfers.

They really need to step up and take a stance though.

SolidusPrime

Zinaroth wrote: »

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

I don't see them saying it isn't allowed so, yes it is. They know people are going to do it anyway, they're just gonna see if they can use it to their advantage. Allow some to do it and ban ones they dont like.

Exactly this. They will wait and see if people accept it or not.
If it backfires on them they will just go out in a couple of weeks and ban some accounts to save public face and maintain public relations.
Exactly like the Bleaker's event.
I would most definitely wait until they are forced to make a statement about it.
You never know if it might backfire on you.
I would however say that, yes it is allowed under the current rules, but so was Bleaker's flipping back in the day, and people kept making forums posts about it, and ZOS remained silent for two weeks until they finally were forced to take action because it got so widespread and a lot of people were angry with it.
ZOS is very controlled by public opinion so expect to get penalized for doing this if they some time in the near future decides it's not okay, despite there not being clear rules about it right now.

+1

Kelces

Yes, it is allowed

Tandor wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

As long as there is no third party profiting, it is allowed. All value stays in the game and hence property of ZoS, no problem.

That rather begs the question of where the gold used to buy the gifted item comes from. If people simply buy the gold then the gold seller does indeed represent "third party profiting" and the whole transaction is RMT-based.

This is a whole different story and is irrelevant to the trade - gold for crowns. That would have to be judged on seperately and case by case.

Not necessarily so, as developers will follow the trail of illicit gold and establish where it ends up - in this case, in the account of crown store customers. Players who sell items for purchased gold won't necessarily avoid detection and a note on their account, or action against that account. At the very least, players need to be aware of the risk, not least if there is no clear statement from ZOS that permitted "gifting" also includes permitted "selling for gold".

If that's the case, then everyone who sold something either through guild vendors or the old fashion way, would probably have earned some of that gold-seller coins. So should they all be guilty in terms of being accomplices? It's not my fault that somewhere along the line some percentage of coins, that I get from selling items came from there. So this in the end, again, has nothing to do with the simple trade of one ZoS owned currency for another in general.

Juhasow

Since it's already happening in game from quite some time how it wouldnt be allowed ? It's not like those "gifts" option in crown store is 1st way to trade crowns for gold. Since release of crown store only crafting styles , crafting items in that styles for gold or deconstructing them and selling style materials is common practice.

Lakashi

Yes, it is allowed

It says right in the TOS:

"Any Virtual Currency balance shown in Your Account does not constitute a real currency balance or reflect any monetary value."

"Virtual Currency will only be used by You to obtain virtual goods within a Game (e.g., durable goods that become part of Your inventory in the Game and consumable or single use items that are used and expire after use within the Game)"

Crowns are a virtual currency. They have NO monetary real-world value. Their purpose is to obtain in-game virtual goods.
It is not gold selling, since there is ABSOLUTELY NO real-world money being exchanged by the players.

VexingArcanist

I don't have a problem with it. I also don't have a problem with people paying or accepting IN GAME gold for carries. However I am not okay with real money for carries and guess what............crown store gifts for carries are probably already underway.

While I don't accept this as legit I am sure ZOS is okay with gifts for carries since ZOS makes money and it isn't just real money changing hands for in-game activites.

ecru

Yes, it is allowed

the purpose of gifting store items is to eliminate third party gold selling folks

Malacthulhu

No, it is not allowed

It honesty doesn't matter bc regardless of the "rules" it will definitally happen and most likey be impossible for them to manage in regards to enforcement which would simply be a reactionary and ineffecient way to deal with it. Money talks and they will probably be hoping people do it anyways to boost crown sales by exploiting stuff, everyone has access to already. This wont stop gold farmers it will actually enable them further bc people will be more desperate for gold to buy said crown items.

I think they should revamp the subscription to the game and have different levels for it starting at $5 up to $30 with appropriate reasons.

DoctorESO

Yes, it is allowed

.

Allypage

No, it is not allowed

I have no opinion either way. But I think it's not allowed

Jayman1000

No, it is not allowed

DoctorESO wrote: »

We don't have an official answer from ZOS, so I want to hear what everyone's take on the rules are. Not what you think *should* be the rule, but what you think *is* the rule based on your interpretation of the existing TOS, policies, etc.

If you had to select either yes or no.

I would say leaning towards a no, based on the fact that unlimited amounts of crowns can be bought with real money, which basically means trading crowns for gold would essentially be buying gold for real life money. On the other hand it cant be exploited by gold sellers because they can't extract any real life money from it; which makes me a bit uncertain, but still leaning towards a no.

However, I didn't even know you could trade crowns?? How does one actually trade crowns for gold?

Malacthulhu

No, it is not allowed

DoctorESO wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

It honesty doesn't matter bc regardless of the "rules" it will definitally happen and most likey be impossible for them to manage in regards to enforcement which would simply be a reactionary and ineffecient way to deal with it. Money talks and they will probably be hoping people do it anyways to boost crown sales by exploiting stuff, everyone has access to already. This wont stop gold farmers it will actually enable them further bc people will be more desperate for gold to buy said crown items.

I think they should revamp the subscription to the game and have different levels for it starting at $5 up to $30 with appropriate reasons.

Well, some of us want to follow the rules regardless of whether we will get caught. Integrity is what you do when no one is watching.

Thats my point. "Some" , cause and effect.