TheRealSniker wrote: »//RANT ON
Im not gonna be very specific mechanically about whats causing certain issues but rather give general ideas, since Im not in the mood to write a book that nobody would read.
So here is a more or less quick rant about what bothers me:
Open World, Gear, Trials and Achievement System
Open world in ESO is boring and no end game player will bother exploring and finishing any of the content you have put there(Besides roleplayers but they arent a part of the cool kids club). End game players have too many resources to either buy a complete overland BiS Gear from guild stores or just 4man group a dungeon and speedrun it 5 times in under 10 minutes. Obtaining non-Trial BiS Gear in this game is a joke and takes no effort.
Although I love Trials I feel like finishing them repetatively doesnt reward me anymore...
Trials provide no reward when you finish them regularly a few times a day, an(considered) extreme dungeon like vHoF should bring amazing rewards to the table after finishing it.
Same goes for the new HM Dragonbones dungeons and the achievement system, there should be more to it to reward the end game player.
ESO is just poor in terms of Gear, Rewards and Character look adjustment. Or overall content.
I would love to see more amazing Motif Designs and Weapon Skins (Like the Ilambris Weapons that come with the next patch).
We need more unique Gear(Weapons or Armor) that are rare to represent the theme of an Elder Scrolls game, coding and working on such an item doesnt require much worktime, telling that from experience.
Imperial City
I love imperial city, the time we had double telvar event was also the time I enjoyed this game the most!
Sadly IC is literally dead. Imperial City is Zenimax's failed project which needs a heavy rework yet all they are saying "they dont have enough resources" yet manage to put out a massive chapter like morrowind or summerse. It would be an smallscalers utopia the way its built but the reward and boss system is just as stupid as every other reward system in the game. Imperial City should drop rare unique weapons for every class that would be considered good and very rare to drop for people to actually fight for it. There are 3 Portals to the IC which at first I thought are somehow connected to the fortresses in Cyrodiil, sadly thats not the case.
Zenimax should learn from other games and introduce interesting game mechanics from other games, like for example Aion, you needed to conquer 2/4 fortresses in an area to unlock portal to a special zone where you could drop Best in Slot PvP Gear. This mechanic kept players fighting for those fortresses for hours, sometimes days, it would make High end players start to fight for the campaign aswell! It would fill the unlocked Zones with every kind of players keeping it interesting and fun. Google Tiamaranta Eye for more Info.
PvP Balance
Theres a problem with Nightblades, there are bad players that weave their cloak inbetween every attack, and there are good players who only use cloak to disengage and otherwise put pressure on you.
Cloak should receive the Streak treatment to increase its cost for 4-5 seconds whenever you use it(That would solve the permacloak issue aswell).
Piercing Mark is an ability that disables a classes playstyle with one button click for entire 30 seconds. for an high-end player 2 seconds feel like alot, just imagine the pain you have to go through as an nightblade main when somebody spams piercing mark on you for 2 minutes +
Sometimes being a nightblade main feels completely useless. Such a mechanic is nowhere else to be seen besides ESO ofcourse...
With the cloak changes, piercing mark should be removed from the game, just imagine we would have a point click ability that disables shields or blocking entirely for 30 seconds, which you cannot entirely purge or counter in any way as a solo player.
Incap Strike is just simply overpowering players in PvP rather than being a huge nuke. You cannot nerf Incaps damage/damage multipliers or Cost, it would go against the Nightblades concept and would kill Nightblades in PvE, therefor I suggest tweaking the Defile debuff. Making Major Defile into Minor would only cause Stamblades to stack the Defile debuff since most of us run Infused Disease already... Removing the Stun would make the skill feel clunky and lack a core part and wouldnt fix it at all. Id Suggest removing Defile entirely from Incap Strike and making the Damage buff apply to the character itself so it cannot be easily countered by purges. Or just simply tweak Defile and Befoul CP.(Or delete it entirely)
Double Take should add Snare immunity for 0,5 seconds to make Magblades a better solo option(since the concept of a Nightblade is to be solo) and making the rogue idea shine through.
Overload as it is now and how ridiculous it will be next patch with existing patch notes is also a big or future issue for PvP. Currently overload can provide extreme pressure for a low cost ultimate which can not only be used once but many times. It is extremely powerful as it is, sometimes harder than other class or guild ultimates which cost quadruple or higher of it's cost. With the new patch on the horizon and the changes in current patch notes this ultimate will become completely unbalanced in PvP together with the new changes(One of which being the new empower).
Twin blade and blunt(Dual wield skill line), twin slashes and cleave. All of these dots are completely fine except for one reason, that is that they completely ignore physical resistance, there is no way to mitigate them aside from battle spirit. This makes this too powerful, or completely overpowered, making axe set ups superior to non-axe ones which damages game's flexibility in terms of gear. Now I understand that this is a unique mechanic to bleeding damage but it is completely unnecessary, it is also unique by being exclusive to axes. Best way of dealing with something as bleeds if you were to somehow make them less powerful is making them affected by physical resistance, this way you are not affecting PvE at all in the trial or group dungeon scene since trial groups already aim and have nearly complete physical penetration, therefore this change would barely affect PvE.
Reflective Scales is another mechanic that makes the PvP unbalanced, this skill makes good players become immune against any ranged player, doesnt matter if good or not. It is self explainable why. Changing this skill wouldnt affect PvE at all since its only being used in some situations and only by the best of players.
Defile and Cost Poisons are just unhealthy game mechanics that make the game not fun.
PvE Balance
The last few months was a paradise for PvE Balance besides maybe 2 builds that werent viable(Magplars and Stamsorcs). Magicka was being picked in hard to survive situations and Magblade(the hardest to play magicka class) had the highest DPS output. Stamina Templars and Dragoknights made for perfect BuffDDs and still maintaining high DPS while Stamina Nightblade(the hardest DD to play in the game) had the highest DPS output in the game. vAS+2 required magicka only while other dungeons that werent as hard to survive in, you could roll Stamina(mostly only 4 cause of positioning). A magDK should not outperform other classes in terms of DPS, DKs have the best Defensive passives ingame, making them also deal the most DPS would just break the games design.
A system that needed just a few class tweaks gets messed up again. Zenimax decides to nerf everything we had going for stamina making Stamina Nightblades the only viable stamina class next Patch while making Magicka(which is significantly easier to play) do much more damage. there is no thought behind those changes. I bet @ZOS_Wrobel played bottle-spinning deciding which part of the game gets messed up next. What awaits us is a 8/8 Magicka DD meta just as pre morrowind looked like...
//RANT OFF
You know nothing of PvE if you think reflective scale isn't used by EVERY DK TANK IN EXISTENCE on multiple fights....its a lifesaver in many fights. I usually swap this skill into my flex slot at least one fight if not more per vet DLC dungeon. Since I don't play nightblades I cant answer for any of those skills, but I hope you are closer to the mark there. Also, in PvP scales does NOT make you immune against all ranged attacks, there are plenty of non-projectile ranged attacks(crushing shock, lightning stave heavy attacks, radiant destruction, etc etc) Scale is one of the few things that makes playing a MDK in PvP viable...its one of the DK strengths, I dont think I would touch a MDK without it considering the increased costs for all the MDK skills compared to other classes.
The only instance I use wings in pve is for Thurvokun. That’s what I see from other tanks I play with as well, but I main tanks so I’ll admit my sample size of what the community at large is doing isn’t huge.
For the record OP has way more overgeneralizations that don’t do his points any favors, and for the most part I don’t agree with his complaints, but felt I should clarify this point as another person who does know a little something about pve
Chudan- a Tank with wings can solo this boss if the rest of the group dies(happens often in pugs)
Domihaus- If you arent using wings on this fight, you are significantly hurting group DPS
Thurvokun- But you knew this
That Stone-Atro raising boss in vBF-Keeping wings up this entire fight makes it so you take almost no damage unless you stand in the AoEs...I also track around the outside edge of the arena to keep the AoEs from cluttering up and making the DPS job harder
Stonecaller Peak-The giant boss, depending on how you tank this fight, wings is a godsend for all the incoming projectiles from the Nereids
If you arent slotting wings for these fights and a few others I cant remember offhand you are gimping yourself(and your group's damage) and relying way too much on your healer
TheRealSniker wrote: »ESO is just poor in terms of Gear
TheRealSniker wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »I play story content inbetween VDSA, Vet Trials and helping ppl get their Fang/ Scale achieves. 100% hardcore is only good if you’re 19 and on parental/ government assistance. Life is fun too, yeah? So’s relaxing and clearing faceroll content.
I have an university, side job, doing my drivers license atm, running my youtube and playing ESO and I hate the faceroll content. Challenge makes me happy, yet there isnt much eso has to offer.
Study physics then you have a challenge
Drachenfier wrote: »What's wrong with this game?
The world is awesome, the graphics are amazing, the visuals are stunning, the quests are great and detailed, everything is really, really fleshed out.
But the classes are so.....damn.....boring. Using the same few skills every fight over and over and over and over ugh.
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »in response to the op....
there's nothing 'wrong' with the game, it's just that you are burned out - take a break.
nothing lasts forever.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
― Robert E. Howard
It's a good thing they balance it around casuals then. Overland content is great in this game. The endgame is the same as every other MMO, a boring grind.
Because most people have already beat the content? Pretty sure you'll find plenty of people outside the city on week one of Summerset. Even if people are not questing they'll be doing other activities, farming skyshards, resources, going to old zones to farm psijic etc.TheRealSniker wrote: »I'm an end game player and I still play all the story (zone content). Sometimes is nice to enjoy content for the story it tells and the new experiences that brings rather than just being about stats, numbers and loot.TheRealSniker wrote: »Open world in ESO is boring and no end game player will bother exploring and finishing any of the content you have put there(Besides roleplayers but they arent a part of the cool kids club).
Or does that just make me part of the cool kids club?
Youre a roleplayer in heart, there is a reason why outside cities there are 0 players
Overworld has things to do it in even for the trials and PvP "only" players. The difficulty is kept low because these are areas where new (no CP, no gear, no knowledge) players will be exploring and playing.
Because most people have already beat the content? Pretty sure you'll find plenty of people outside the city on week one of Summerset. Even if people are not questing they'll be doing other activities, farming skyshards, resources, going to old zones to farm psijic etc.TheRealSniker wrote: »I'm an end game player and I still play all the story (zone content). Sometimes is nice to enjoy content for the story it tells and the new experiences that brings rather than just being about stats, numbers and loot.TheRealSniker wrote: »Open world in ESO is boring and no end game player will bother exploring and finishing any of the content you have put there(Besides roleplayers but they arent a part of the cool kids club).
Or does that just make me part of the cool kids club?
Youre a roleplayer in heart, there is a reason why outside cities there are 0 players
Overworld has things to do it in even for the trials and PvP "only" players. The difficulty is kept low because these are areas where new (no CP, no gear, no knowledge) players will be exploring and playing.
Zones are filled with people on PS4...are dead zones a PC issue?
I'm an end game player and I still play all the story (zone content). Sometimes is nice to enjoy content for the story it tells and the new experiences that brings rather than just being about stats, numbers and loot.TheRealSniker wrote: »Open world in ESO is boring and no end game player will bother exploring and finishing any of the content you have put there(Besides roleplayers but they arent a part of the cool kids club).
Or does that just make me part of the cool kids club?
TheRealSniker wrote: »//RANT ON
Im not gonna be very specific mechanically about whats causing certain issues but rather give general ideas, since Im not in the mood to write a book that nobody would read.
So here is a more or less quick rant about what bothers me:
Open World, Gear, Trials and Achievement System
Open world in ESO is boring and no end game player will bother exploring and finishing any of the content you have put there(Besides roleplayers but they arent a part of the cool kids club). End game players have too many resources to either buy a complete overland BiS Gear from guild stores or just 4man group a dungeon and speedrun it 5 times in under 10 minutes. Obtaining non-Trial BiS Gear in this game is a joke and takes no effort.
Although I love Trials I feel like finishing them repetatively doesnt reward me anymore...
Trials provide no reward when you finish them regularly a few times a day, an(considered) extreme dungeon like vHoF should bring amazing rewards to the table after finishing it.
Same goes for the new HM Dragonbones dungeons and the achievement system, there should be more to it to reward the end game player.
ESO is just poor in terms of Gear, Rewards and Character look adjustment. Or overall content.
I would love to see more amazing Motif Designs and Weapon Skins (Like the Ilambris Weapons that come with the next patch).
We need more unique Gear(Weapons or Armor) that are rare to represent the theme of an Elder Scrolls game, coding and working on such an item doesnt require much worktime, telling that from experience.
Imperial City
I love imperial city, the time we had double telvar event was also the time I enjoyed this game the most!
Sadly IC is literally dead. Imperial City is Zenimax's failed project which needs a heavy rework yet all they are saying "they dont have enough resources" yet manage to put out a massive chapter like morrowind or summerse. It would be an smallscalers utopia the way its built but the reward and boss system is just as stupid as every other reward system in the game. Imperial City should drop rare unique weapons for every class that would be considered good and very rare to drop for people to actually fight for it. There are 3 Portals to the IC which at first I thought are somehow connected to the fortresses in Cyrodiil, sadly thats not the case.
Zenimax should learn from other games and introduce interesting game mechanics from other games, like for example Aion, you needed to conquer 2/4 fortresses in an area to unlock portal to a special zone where you could drop Best in Slot PvP Gear. This mechanic kept players fighting for those fortresses for hours, sometimes days, it would make High end players start to fight for the campaign aswell! It would fill the unlocked Zones with every kind of players keeping it interesting and fun. Google Tiamaranta Eye for more Info.
PvP Balance
Theres a problem with Nightblades, there are bad players that weave their cloak inbetween every attack, and there are good players who only use cloak to disengage and otherwise put pressure on you.
Cloak should receive the Streak treatment to increase its cost for 4-5 seconds whenever you use it(That would solve the permacloak issue aswell).
Piercing Mark is an ability that disables a classes playstyle with one button click for entire 30 seconds. for an high-end player 2 seconds feel like alot, just imagine the pain you have to go through as an nightblade main when somebody spams piercing mark on you for 2 minutes +
Sometimes being a nightblade main feels completely useless. Such a mechanic is nowhere else to be seen besides ESO ofcourse...
With the cloak changes, piercing mark should be removed from the game, just imagine we would have a point click ability that disables shields or blocking entirely for 30 seconds, which you cannot entirely purge or counter in any way as a solo player.
Incap Strike is just simply overpowering players in PvP rather than being a huge nuke. You cannot nerf Incaps damage/damage multipliers or Cost, it would go against the Nightblades concept and would kill Nightblades in PvE, therefor I suggest tweaking the Defile debuff. Making Major Defile into Minor would only cause Stamblades to stack the Defile debuff since most of us run Infused Disease already... Removing the Stun would make the skill feel clunky and lack a core part and wouldnt fix it at all. Id Suggest removing Defile entirely from Incap Strike and making the Damage buff apply to the character itself so it cannot be easily countered by purges. Or just simply tweak Defile and Befoul CP.(Or delete it entirely)
Double Take should add Snare immunity for 0,5 seconds to make Magblades a better solo option(since the concept of a Nightblade is to be solo) and making the rogue idea shine through.
Overload as it is now and how ridiculous it will be next patch with existing patch notes is also a big or future issue for PvP. Currently overload can provide extreme pressure for a low cost ultimate which can not only be used once but many times. It is extremely powerful as it is, sometimes harder than other class or guild ultimates which cost quadruple or higher of it's cost. With the new patch on the horizon and the changes in current patch notes this ultimate will become completely unbalanced in PvP together with the new changes(One of which being the new empower).
Twin blade and blunt(Dual wield skill line), twin slashes and cleave. All of these dots are completely fine except for one reason, that is that they completely ignore physical resistance, there is no way to mitigate them aside from battle spirit. This makes this too powerful, or completely overpowered, making axe set ups superior to non-axe ones which damages game's flexibility in terms of gear. Now I understand that this is a unique mechanic to bleeding damage but it is completely unnecessary, it is also unique by being exclusive to axes. Best way of dealing with something as bleeds if you were to somehow make them less powerful is making them affected by physical resistance, this way you are not affecting PvE at all in the trial or group dungeon scene since trial groups already aim and have nearly complete physical penetration, therefore this change would barely affect PvE.
Reflective Scales is another mechanic that makes the PvP unbalanced, this skill makes good players become immune against any ranged player, doesnt matter if good or not. It is self explainable why. Changing this skill wouldnt affect PvE at all since its only being used in some situations and only by the best of players.
Defile and Cost Poisons are just unhealthy game mechanics that make the game not fun.
PvE Balance
The last few months was a paradise for PvE Balance besides maybe 2 builds that werent viable(Magplars and Stamsorcs). Magicka was being picked in hard to survive situations and Magblade(the hardest to play magicka class) had the highest DPS output. Stamina Templars and Dragoknights made for perfect BuffDDs and still maintaining high DPS while Stamina Nightblade(the hardest DD to play in the game) had the highest DPS output in the game. vAS+2 required magicka only while other dungeons that werent as hard to survive in, you could roll Stamina(mostly only 4 cause of positioning). A magDK should not outperform other classes in terms of DPS, DKs have the best Defensive passives ingame, making them also deal the most DPS would just break the games design.
A system that needed just a few class tweaks gets messed up again. Zenimax decides to nerf everything we had going for stamina making Stamina Nightblades the only viable stamina class next Patch while making Magicka(which is significantly easier to play) do much more damage. there is no thought behind those changes. I bet @ZOS_Wrobel played bottle-spinning deciding which part of the game gets messed up next. What awaits us is a 8/8 Magicka DD meta just as pre morrowind looked like...
//RANT OFF
TheRealSniker wrote: »//RANT ON
I
PvP Balance
Theres a problem with Nightblades, there are bad players that weave their cloak inbetween every attack, and there are good players who only use cloak to disengage and otherwise put pressure on you.
Cloak should receive the Streak treatment to increase its cost for 4-5 seconds whenever you use it(That would solve the permacloak issue aswell).
Piercing Mark is an ability that disables a classes playstyle with one button click for entire 30 seconds. for an high-end player 2 seconds feel like alot, just imagine the pain you have to go through as an nightblade main when somebody spams piercing mark on you for 2 minutes +
Sometimes being a nightblade main feels completely useless. Such a mechanic is nowhere else to be seen besides ESO ofcourse...
With the cloak changes, piercing mark should be removed from the game, just imagine we would have a point click ability that disables shields or blocking entirely for 30 seconds, which you cannot entirely purge or counter in any way as a solo player.
Incap Strike is just simply overpowering players in PvP rather than being a huge nuke. You cannot nerf Incaps damage/damage multipliers or Cost, it would go against the Nightblades concept and would kill Nightblades in PvE, therefor I suggest tweaking the Defile debuff. Making Major Defile into Minor would only cause Stamblades to stack the Defile debuff since most of us run Infused Disease already... Removing the Stun would make the skill feel clunky and lack a core part and wouldnt fix it at all. Id Suggest removing Defile entirely from Incap Strike and making the Damage buff apply to the character itself so it cannot be easily countered by purges. Or just simply tweak Defile and Befoul CP.(Or delete it entirely)
Double Take should add Snare immunity for 0,5 seconds to make Magblades a better solo option(since the concept of a Nightblade is to be solo) and making the rogue idea shine through.
Overload as it is now and how ridiculous it will be next patch with existing patch notes is also a big or future issue for PvP. Currently overload can provide extreme pressure for a low cost ultimate which can not only be used once but many times. It is extremely powerful as it is, sometimes harder than other class or guild ultimates which cost quadruple or higher of it's cost. With the new patch on the horizon and the changes in current patch notes this ultimate will become completely unbalanced in PvP together with the new changes(One of which being the new empower).
Twin blade and blunt(Dual wield skill line), twin slashes and cleave. All of these dots are completely fine except for one reason, that is that they completely ignore physical resistance, there is no way to mitigate them aside from battle spirit. This makes this too powerful, or completely overpowered, making axe set ups superior to non-axe ones which damages game's flexibility in terms of gear. Now I understand that this is a unique mechanic to bleeding damage but it is completely unnecessary, it is also unique by being exclusive to axes. Best way of dealing with something as bleeds if you were to somehow make them less powerful is making them affected by physical resistance, this way you are not affecting PvE at all in the trial or group dungeon scene since trial groups already aim and have nearly complete physical penetration, therefore this change would barely affect PvE.
Reflective Scales is another mechanic that makes the PvP unbalanced, this skill makes good players become immune against any ranged player, doesnt matter if good or not. It is self explainable why. Changing this skill wouldnt affect PvE at all since its only being used in some situations and only by the best of players.
Defile and Cost Poisons are just unhealthy game mechanics that make the game not fun.
//RANT OFF
what's wrong with this game?
1) There is no reason to explore. There is nothing special out there . Look in every crack and cranny and all you find is... nothing at all.
2) One Tamriel made the questing "the same" . All are levelled to you. No chance of wandering into a dungeon and finding anything difficult. Total lack of anticipation.
3 ) The Champion system combined with One Tamriel has made levelling to 50 pointless. Might as well just give everyone level 50 with all the points etc as the Champion points are the only thing worth getting . IF you are not going to give automatic level 50 then give champion points whilst people are levelling to 50. I personally have no vested interest as I have more than 1000 champion points. Could stop playing for years and still be under the champion point cap. This really only affects new players. Any new xharacter I get I jsut level to 50 quickely by the easist methood possible. No point in questing once yo u have done it once..
3) PVP has essentially not changed since the game began. The new AP system to be implimented in Summerset is just tinkering around. How about something that shatters the map,. Let's be honest. Molag Bal is out there. Not sure what it is doing. Presumably playing with itself as it has no influence on PVP.
4) Most of the repeatable stuff is so repetitious that banging your head against a wall would be more exciting.
5) Why as a master craftman can I not make the best stuff in the game? All these monster sets that people are running around wearing. Who is making the stuff? The Master Master Craftsman? How about a system where you can learn to make monster sets. It does not a have to be easy but something more to do.
I won't go into the lack of an economy.
Yes the game is enjoyable but it could be even more enjoyable without changing the overall dynamics.
I'm an end game player and I still play all the story (zone content). Sometimes is nice to enjoy content for the story it tells and the new experiences that brings rather than just being about stats, numbers and loot.TheRealSniker wrote: »Open world in ESO is boring and no end game player will bother exploring and finishing any of the content you have put there(Besides roleplayers but they arent a part of the cool kids club).
Or does that just make me part of the cool kids club?
I’m in the same boat. I’m wearing a couple sets of all legendary gear, but I’m still questing through the game world. Sure, I’m two-shotting everything, but that’s a privilege I earned by playing through the content, farming gear, and upgrading my gear. The 600-ish CPs help too
After a short break I returned for a couple of months and I've been getting bored again. I've been really digging trying to understand why. I love the world, the lore, the music, the pvp, and the questing. I always felt I too earned the gear, cp, and abilities to melt mobs faces off but I spend quite a bit of time in Overland waiting for dungeon finder to pop, finishing zones, or just farming materials and it's just so boring. There really is no challenge in 80% of the game. Sure trials, newer vet dungeons, and vet maelstrom are tough but other than that..not so much. I love when new zones drop as I love the stories but as a veteran player I feel I'm punished, not privileged with weak pve.
Other that the obvious like great gear and CP points, the one thing I've noticed that makes this games pve easy is the overabundance of AOE abilities. I've even reset my cp points and I can still mow through stuff at a ridiculous pace. I mean take for instance my magwarden. I can hit a public dungeon, encounter a group of 10 mobs, drop deep fissure, lightning blockade, and winters revenge, and I might be able to get off 2 single target abilities (bird, force pulse) before I'm looting all and moving on to the next group with little to no fear. I ca do the same with my stamplar or stamden. Caltrops, endless hail, and a class aoe has the same effect. This is done repeatedly for almost everything. How is this fun? Where's the challenge? If I had one AOE to soften a group but I had to actually fight each one to finish them off it might make the fight drag out a bit longer and could increase the difficulty. I began looking back at my 20+ year history of MMOs and I cannot remember a MMO where all of the classes had this much AOE potential. Back in the day in say DAOC or EQ2 when you were forming a group you specifically looked to add AOE based classes. That was their role. Now all classes can do everything pretty damn well. I don't want to go further with this but I saw this post and I wanted to share something I was thinking about this weekend.
I really like 50% of the replies saying op is burnt out and nothing is wrong with the game but don't address any of the constructive criticism he brought up. Why take the time responding when your message is literally empty?
boombazookajd wrote: »TheRealSniker wrote: »Theres a problem with Nightblades
Sure, blame the nightblades. I hate gankers and NB's too but their whole steathly thing IS their class. If you nerf the stealthy thing, you kill night blades and the fun way to kill night blades is to run away screaming "I'm getting ganked guys" with Rapid maneuver, and make a b-line for the crown.