SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Instead, how about you take the 15 minutes to learn it. I am well over 40 and like anything practice makes perfect.

OP never once ventured they didn’t know how to do it. Perhaps you should try some reading comprehension. It’s well over 40 characters, but you know, practice makes perfect.

The point is that animations being weaved out of or canceled is indicative of those animations being overly long or cumbersome. I know how to animation cancel and weave, but it’s definitely more trouble on console than it is on PC.

What’s the solution?

What’s been asked for since soon after ESO was released. Animation reworks on skills. To date, there has been no comprehensive update to animations since the game’s launch. Yes, there are some exceptions, but the whole of it remains untouched. Why are heavy attacks on flame staff harder to weave than a Lightning’s staff? Why do 2H light and heavy attacks look like the Star Wars Kid? Dont even get me started on Werewolf.

Read my previous post and then give an example of an "animation rework" please.

Just to be clear—I am entirely in support of ani cancelling. I use it consistently in PvP and PvE, and understand that it's an innate part of combat due to the action priority system. That said, it needs to be pointed-out that instant-cast skills do not always resolve (deal damage) instantly.

The best example I can think of would be incap. If you've ever tried opening a combo with an incap, and casted it without block cancelling, you'll notice that it plays a frontswing animation of around 0.7 to 0.8s before the damage actually registers, which feels unbearably slow on a skill that should be instant.

Block cancelling this animation allows the skill to land truly instantly.

This doesn't enable you to land 5 skills at the same time, as some opponents of AC inexplicably claim. Because, once the incap lands, you're on the GCD, and any follow-up ability can only be landed ~1s after this.

What it does allow you to do, however, is to begin the entire combo 0.7s earlier (due to shaving off that amount of time from the incap's frontswing animation). And this is extremely important when utilising burst combos in PvP, as such combos need to be delivered within a very strict window of time.

Another benefit of cancelling incap's frontswing animation is that the skill becomes much less telegraphed. Targets are on the ground before they know what hit them, and catching them off-guard in this manner usually means they respond slower while they regain their bearings.

@Joshlenoir has a very handy video demonstrating the effects of AC on Nightblade combos. The segment on incap begins at 2:59.

https://www.youtube.com/wUO9DywGB0I&t=2m59s

TheYKcid wrote: »

Just to be clear—I am entirely in support of ani cancelling. I use it consistently in PvP and PvE, and understand that it's an innate part of combat due to the action priority system. That said, it needs to be pointed-out that instant-cast skills do not always resolve (deal damage) instantly.

The best example I can think of would be incap. If you've ever tried opening a combo with an incap, and casted it without block cancelling, you'll notice that it plays a frontswing animation of around 0.7 to 0.8s before the damage actually registers, which feels unbearably slow on a skill that should be instant.

Block cancelling this animation allows the skill to land truly instantly.

This doesn't enable you to land 5 skills at the same time, as some opponents of AC inexplicably claim. Because, once the incap lands, you're on the GCD, and any follow-up ability can only be landed ~1s after this.

What it does allow you to do, however, is to land the entire combo that 0.7s earlier (due to shaving off that amount of time from the incap's frontswing animation). And this is extremely important when utilising burst combos in PvP, as such combos need to be delivered within a very strict window of time.

Another benefit of cancelling incap's frontswing animation is that the skill becomes much less telegraphed. Targets are on the ground before they know what hit them, and catching them off-guard in this manner usually means they respond slower while they regain their bearings.

@Joshlenoir has a very handy video demonstrating the effects of AC on Nightblade combos. The segment on incap begins at 2:59.

https://www.youtube.com/wUO9DywGB0I&t=2m59s

If I got what I envision, there is a good chance you would not suffer for it. Imagine if you didn’t need to exert that block cancel and the result was the same, because the animation was fixed to reflect the skill?

This is not an attack on efficiency; it is a quest to enhance the game.

ajcorbell wrote: »

So it was fine when you could do it, but now you can't it's not? Ok

Please elaborate. I’ve said many times, I currently utilize animation canceling

Lunaugh wrote: »

If I got what I envision, there is a good chance you would not suffer for it. Imagine if you didn’t need to exert that block cancel and the result was the same, because the animation was fixed to reflect the skill?

This is not an attack on efficiency; it is a quest to enhance the game.

It would still look terrible, because a frontswing animation that resolved instantly would be far too fast, twitchy and unnatural.

As for the backswing animation, I would still cancel it in many cases:

• With a dodge cancel, to avoid getting pressured/CC'd and therefore ruining the momentum of my combo
• With blockcasting, for the same reasons as above
• With a bash, to add additional damage especially when trying to secure a kill

There are many reasons to cancel the animation of a skill, all of which are the result of reactive combat design. Revamping skill animations would be a waste of resources—skilled players would still cancel them, while casual players never cancelled in the first place.

I'm thinking I need to banish my ignorance on the part of GCD. If GCD really is the only thing that matters, I need to re-build my perspective after basing my 'rotation/weaves' on the GCD numbers.

Reference
Edit: I find myself reviewing @exeeter702 's replies, and I find them enlightening. After I look into the GCD numbers, I'll re-evaluate my position; after all, if the animations match the GCD, then there is no need for canceling.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Instead, how about you take the 15 minutes to learn it. I am well over 40 and like anything practice makes perfect.

OP never once ventured they didn’t know how to do it. Perhaps you should try some reading comprehension. It’s well over 40 characters, but you know, practice makes perfect.

The point is that animations being weaved out of or canceled is indicative of those animations being overly long or cumbersome. I know how to animation cancel and weave, but it’s definitely more trouble on console than it is on PC.

What’s the solution?

What’s been asked for since soon after ESO was released. Animation reworks on skills. To date, there has been no comprehensive update to animations since the game’s launch. Yes, there are some exceptions, but the whole of it remains untouched. Why are heavy attacks on flame staff harder to weave than a Lightning’s staff? Why do 2H light and heavy attacks look like the Star Wars Kid? Dont even get me started on Werewolf.

Read my previous post and then give an example of an "animation rework" please.

Make the channeled ability actually be channeled. Why should someone be able to block cancel an ability? Like it makes any sense to be shooting arrows in the air and then be able to instantly block an attack? If DPS didn’t have block canceling, they might have to actually change their rotations to fit the situation, which reacting to a changing battle space seems much more skillful than simply hitting block or bar swapping.

Perhaps if you try and bar swap an ability, it doesn’t fire. When something has to “channel,” then you should have to meet those prerequisites to actually use the ability. Why is ESO suddenly different from the overwhelming vast majority of games where things like proper timing and expected delay matter? Can Batman animation cancel batarangs I’m Arkham City? Kratos can cancel a combo but have it still fully hit?

I agree with the ideas you are presenting here; if there is an animation for an ability, you should commit through the animation.
Though it doesn't seem to fit the popular opinion. I'm still out on understanding the global casting timers; I can't speak more on the subject until I've gained more clarification on that.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Instead, how about you take the 15 minutes to learn it. I am well over 40 and like anything practice makes perfect.

OP never once ventured they didn’t know how to do it. Perhaps you should try some reading comprehension. It’s well over 40 characters, but you know, practice makes perfect.

The point is that animations being weaved out of or canceled is indicative of those animations being overly long or cumbersome. I know how to animation cancel and weave, but it’s definitely more trouble on console than it is on PC.

What’s the solution?

What’s been asked for since soon after ESO was released. Animation reworks on skills. To date, there has been no comprehensive update to animations since the game’s launch. Yes, there are some exceptions, but the whole of it remains untouched. Why are heavy attacks on flame staff harder to weave than a Lightning’s staff? Why do 2H light and heavy attacks look like the Star Wars Kid? Dont even get me started on Werewolf.

Read my previous post and then give an example of an "animation rework" please.

Make the channeled ability actually be channeled. Why should someone be able to block cancel an ability? Like it makes any sense to be shooting arrows in the air and then be able to instantly block an attack? If DPS didn’t have block canceling, they might have to actually change their rotations to fit the situation, which reacting to a changing battle space seems much more skillful than simply hitting block or bar swapping.

Perhaps if you try and bar swap an ability, it doesn’t fire. When something has to “channel,” then you should have to meet those prerequisites to actually use the ability. Why is ESO suddenly different from the overwhelming vast majority of games where things like proper timing and expected delay matter? Can Batman animation cancel batarangs I’m Arkham City? Kratos can cancel a combo but have it still fully hit?

You are confusing channeled abilities with animations, they are completely separate. If you interrupt the cast time of a hard casted ability with block or barswap etc, you are not awarded the skill. If you interrupt a channeled ability (jabs, jesus beam, flurry etc) you are only granted the benefits of the skill for as long and the channel hangs. All channeled abilities are required to channel if you want to full benefit, especially since you are charged its cost upfront. But for various reasons there are times you have no choice but to interrupt a cast because you need to dodge roll or block something. At that moment you are out the cost of the skill and out on its full bugdet in yeild.

You are not understanding. Please carefully re read whay was explained. An instant cast ability does not channel or cast in anyway whatsoever, it instantly resolves when it is pressed, meaning the information is immediately sent server side, regardless of any animation you see after the fact. . Any follow up animation is played out and generaly lines up with when you are again allowed to use a skill.

How would you not fire an instant cast ability when bar swaping? The ability is fired once you press the button. How on earth would you suggest changing this standard outside of making sure every skill in the game is a channel or had a cast time, which is an absolutely awfull idea to say the least.

And just a side note.. if you are block clanceling in a dps rotation you are seriously doing it wrong, especially as a stam dps. No amount of block canceling in pve yeilds bonus results beyond an air tight light attack weaved rotation and only serves to gimp your stam regen.

TheYKcid wrote: »

@exeeter702

I'm aware that block-cancelling doesn't let you land subsequent skills sooner in violation of the GCD—I mentioned that specifically in my post.

But block-cancelling an incap most definitely lets you land it quicker. I know this from experience having played NB most of the past year, but for good measure I just spent 30 minutes testing it by duelling a friend.

The damage + CC of incap only lands when the frontswing animation of incap finishes, or if it is otherwise block-cancelled. The GCD also begins once the incap resolves. A null point if you were already on GCD from casting something prior to the incap—but if you were off cooldown, and about to start a fresh combo, then block-cancelling the incap (as an opener) absolutely does allow you to begin the combo sooner.

Im sorry but i dont know what to tell you, if you have convicned yourself of that to be true then there is little ability for reason. What you are seeing on your screen is not indicitive of what is happening server side. Using an instant skill is hard coded in the game to immediately send that information to the server. Block canceling has no effect beyond client side visual queues and information display. Incap resolves instantly, so the GCD is immediately put into effect, at which poinf if you were to press another abikity .5 seconds after, that input is buffered and fires off .5 seconds after that.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Admittedly all my testing and personal experience is restricted to what I can see client-side, so I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I could be entirely misled.

Do you have any sources with details about how the information is actually processed, server-side? Genuinely curious, and not trying to challenge you.

Online games of this nature universaly operate this way. Latency and server instability always play a factor ofc. Tell you what, test this, without your friend trying to predict and block preemptively, tell him react to incap or any instant cast skill with a block, dont tell him when you are about to cast the skill. Do this without block canceling it, and do it with a block cancel. A large enough sample size of this nature will demonstrate the systems at play.

When you have to communicate information between 2 players dynamically in real time over a centralized dedicated server, these rules always apply. And in mmos, along with balance concerns, a GCD or system in place to control ability use frequency must be implemented. To answer your question, more specifically to eso, from ZOSs mouth, i dont belive there is a source explaining this.

VaranisArano wrote: »

So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?

That's an example of animation canceling, albeit not one we think of often simply because we use it so often and so naturally.

I'm not great as using animation canceling in DPS rotations, but I definitely use bar swap canceling and block for a fluid, reactive combat.


Note: just a reminder that Light attack weaving (because there are still folks who argue that is animation canceling) is now being taught by ZOS in the Level Up Advisor.

Try commiting to a swing with a sword irl and tell me that you can just pull it back mid swing and lunge your shield forward instead.

Yes, you should be able to cancel an action, like you describe, but the effect should be that you utterly remove any effectiveness from the action, it should make the action impotent, but allow you to change to circumstance with proper character animations implemented to show this.

lao wrote: »

everytime i see some1 advocating to remove the only skillful mechanic this game has to offer for the sake of immersion (in an mmo lulz) i get a brain aneurysm.

Let's advocate it a bit more then.

ZOS has said they don't know how to fix it, so they just turned it into a feature.

I don't care either way. I just wish they were consistent in how abilities cancel. A lot of new abilities they are releasing cannot be cancelled immediately (see half of the warden's kit). Two examples are Netch and Lotus Blossom. You need to go through about half the animation before you can cancel or else the ability won't register. Most base game abilities can be cancelled as soon as they are cast.

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

Lunaugh wrote: »

Greetings fellow forum dwellers.

Back in my gaming prime, I was all about pushing games to their limit, finding the tricks to gain an edge against the competition. What combination of actions would break the balance?
From Super Smash Bros. wave-dashing to Warhammer 40k: Space Marine roll dashing, I've tweaked my share of games for a competitive edge.

Now past my prime and lacking the same amount of free time I find that such techniques, while valid, are evidence of broken programming.
Before I continue, I will admit that I utilize animation/weapon-swap canceling.

My problem is as follows: If one is to reach 'top tier', one has to sacrifice many aesthetic and/or immersive aspects in the game. It comes to the point that when you have 40 'top tier' players, it doesn't look like a fantasy battle at all. Its a whole bunch of hopping, random instantaneous weapons swapping, (visually) incomplete spell casting etc.
Immersion broken.

In my opinion, spells have specific animations and animation times for two reasons: one is immersion, two is balance. If, sans-cancel, another skill can not be cast until the animation of the first cast skill is completed, then it was intended that way.

I'd like to see the animation canceling removed. Thoughts?

Thoughts? Well, I agree 100%. Animation cancelling was a bug that they gave up on fixing, later calling it a "feature".

It is fundementally not a bug.

It is a natural byproduct of the core mechanics intentionally desgined for combat. Zos has never claimed it was a bug, go ahead and link the wrobel eso live clip.

An explicit GCD governing all ability use
A .5 second input buffer
White attacks being manual instead of auto
Defensive actions being available at all times to guarantee player agency ie player successfully ccompletes a hard cast ability on a target but isnt penalized when they immediately need to block another attack elsewhere. Locking them into a recovery animation despite the GCD being refreshed would result if awful, clunky, cumbersome gameplay.

Lunaugh wrote: »

I do not believe that it is a nonsensical suggestion to alter the animations to at least include that you have canceled it; Considering The amount of detail that’s put into these animations it seems really awkward and choppy to have it go from your arm being above your head to instantly holding your shield in front of you. At the end of the line it is boiling down to aesthetics; in this case since the game is constantly in development, asking for better aesthetics is not asking too much. (imho)

Its nonsensical in that while realistically it looks strange, gameplay wise it simply has to be this way, since it would look equally strange to speed animations up to have them play out in there intirety within under a second, recovery animation and all. Its nonsensical because this circular logic only exists because too many players dont understand WHY it has to exsist in the first place.

You cant adjust the animations unless you speed them up to a ridiculously looking rate, AND tie the resolve point to the tail end of every swing, which would look so putrid in combination with rapid speed animations..

All that because you want going into a defensive posture, or rolling to look natural (ignoring the fact that every animated action surrounding it would be just as immersion breaking).

It has to exist because there is no way around it unless design your combat system around all skills having a cast time (so they dont confict with the GCD) AND disallowing any sort of defensive action to be taken once you commit to an attack.

EVEN THEN, you have those that make the silly claim of "if you cancel it, you shouldnt get anything for it!" Which not only makes zero sense when using isntant cast skills, and is already the case for hard cast time and channeled skills, but even THAT looks silly.

Its very hard to be civil about this subject, but the majority of players that view it as an exploit, poor coding, a bug, or just leet skills are complety beyond reason and demonstrate timeband time again their complete disconnection with the intentional systems that govern this games combat system.

They want change so they can

"Have good dps without cheating" - nonsense
"Perform well in pvp without exploiting" nonsense
"Have good looking combat without bugs" nonsense
"Not have their immersion broken" - nonsense

And worst of all the majority of them cant even be arsed with putting in the effort of reading through the explanations in threads that completely break drown their entire argument.

Godspeed and good luck.