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Smooth, animated transitions for animation canceling
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Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭XiDiabolismiX wrote: »You guys do understand the reason behind animation cancelling right? The way combat is set up in this game with things you have to interrupt and block, you have to be very reactive. If you cast a skill with a 3 second long animation and there’s a one shot mechanic that needs to be blocked, and you block it, you’re essentially using animation cancelling.
Its not anywhere near as rewarding as it use to be. There are internal cool downs with skills now so that even if you want to animation cancel your booty off, you’re only going to pull a minuscule amount of dps higher.
I’ve tried dps parses with a fully animation cancelling rotation, and one where I let all the animations play through and its relatively the same. The biggest factor in dpsing is weaving light and heavy attacks correctly between skills.
Exactly. I wish those who are against animation cancelling could get it through their thick skulls that cancelling the animation of every skill is highly uncommon and barely gives any advantage.
If I can parse more than 30k on a dummy self-buffed with only 1-2 non-reactive damage-oriented animation cancels per rotation, you can too! If I can top the scoreboard in a Battlegrounds match with NO non-reactive damage-oriented animation cancelling whatsoever, you can too!
If you believe animation cancelling is the source of all your woes, learn to weave, learn to burst, learn how to defend yourself, and stop blaming a game feature that receives minimal use by the majority of the player base. Also, stop spreading misinformation about animation cancelling; other players cannot bypass the GCD with animation cancelling. If you die to a sudden onslaught of skills that appear to land in one second, then you’ve died to server lag, or to well-timed burst.
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Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »GCD's 1.2 second? I thought it was 0.75 or 0.8 seconds.
Could very well be. I vaguely remember 1.2 seconds being mentioned in the past, but I’m not 100% sure. You can see the GCD here:
https://youtu.be/DIBejfOnCXM
Either way, it’s fairly short.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.2 -
Didaco✭✭✭✭
It's when I read posts like these that I convince myself that most MMORPG players (especially in this community) have never, EVER played a real action game.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
Putting aside the concept of animation canceling, it's the notion of RISK/REWARD too that this community is almost completely lacking.
Seems like everything I read around here is about "the faster, the better - nothing else matters" with the devs obeying that rule and delivering us these clunky, finger-massacre fest that rotations are in these game.
Meh.
Edited by Didaco on May 12, 2018 1:13PM1 -
Bbsample197✭✭✭✭
It's when I read posts like these that I convince myself that most MMORPG players (especially in this community) have never, EVER played a real action game.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
Putting aside the concept of animation canceling, it's the notion of RISK/REWARD too that this community is almost completely lacking.
Seems like everything I read around here is about "the faster, the better - nothing else matters" with the devs obeying that rule and delivering us these clunky, finger-massacre fest that rotations are in these game.
Meh.
MMORPGs and "Real" Action game arent the same! you cant mix them up and it will never bem so you really cant convince yourself about that, your convincing yourself WRONG!! also the majority of the community comes from a single player TES games where combat is the WORST you could ever see on an RPG.1 -
Didaco✭✭✭✭Bbsample197 wrote: »
It's when I read posts like these that I convince myself that most MMORPG players (especially in this community) have never, EVER played a real action game.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
Putting aside the concept of animation canceling, it's the notion of RISK/REWARD too that this community is almost completely lacking.
Seems like everything I read around here is about "the faster, the better - nothing else matters" with the devs obeying that rule and delivering us these clunky, finger-massacre fest that rotations are in these game.
Meh.
MMORPGs and "Real" Action game arent the same! you cant mix them up and it will never bem so you really cant convince yourself about that, your convincing yourself WRONG!! also the majority of the community comes from a single player TES games where combat is the WORST you could ever see on an RPG.
Let me get this clear: You're right, these two genres aren't the same, nor they are forsaken to learn from one to another.. Does this mean they can't, though?
Like it or not, ESO is borrowing some features from Action games (like many and any other mmos are) otherwise we would be fighting by pointing and clicking, tab-targeting, auto-attacks ec.
And in its current state it's lacking one major feature from action games: risk/reward.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. On the other hand, would it be bad allowing players to have access to different playstyles? Neither.
And if we want to tell the truth, there are already games that are mixing action/mmorpg and implementing animation canceling way better than eso does; look at TERA, is that a case that it's recognized as having one of the best combat in its genre?
Edit: Lel, I wanted to write "forced" but for whatever reason I got "forsaken". I'll leave it as it is
Edited by Didaco on May 12, 2018 2:51PM2 -
Sigtric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Did we really make it into page two on an animation cancelling thread with out someone calling it a bug, or did I miss that?
Everyone should listen to @Aurielle.
Bottom line is AC was built into the game on purpose. It just started getting used in a not-so-anticipated way.
AC is because of dynamic combat, being able to react as needed. Arguments for "make it cancel the ability" aren't viable. That'd add a whole new slew of checks and calculations to each skill, which is something this game does not need.
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Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |
Show Me Your Dunmer
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This, now you could pull cast at the end of the 0.9 second animation, think an fast draw snipe. now this would have little impact on dps in dungeons, it would be critical for healing, you are standing in stupid and got an HA from add knocking you down, its over an second to emergency heal comes. Way longer if healer could not block cancel sweep.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
That's an example of animation canceling, albeit not one we think of often simply because we use it so often and so naturally.
I'm not great as using animation canceling in DPS rotations, but I definitely use bar swap canceling and block for a fluid, reactive combat.
Note: just a reminder that Light attack weaving (because there are still folks who argue that is animation canceling) is now being taught by ZOS in the Level Up Advisor.
Don't know enough about tanking but assume they face the same issues.
For PvP, it would change everything as all casts are now telegraphed.
In short you would need to re-balance everything. Both PvP and PvE dungeons and trials, game would be way slower paced for DD and the delay for emergency heal or tank interaction would be 1 second longer.
So yes ZoS has the option to say sorry no dlc this year to players and tell zenimax that it would be no dlc sales this year but they will hopefully drop an new chapter next year. or continue as current
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
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It's when I read posts like these that I convince myself that most MMORPG players (especially in this community) have never, EVER played a real action game.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
Putting aside the concept of animation canceling, it's the notion of RISK/REWARD too that this community is almost completely lacking.
Seems like everything I read around here is about "the faster, the better - nothing else matters" with the devs obeying that rule and delivering us these clunky, finger-massacre fest that rotations are in these game.
Meh.
Pfft. I take risk/reward into account whenever I use the dungeon finder to queue for vet DLC dungeons or vet CoH II.
DPS rotations in ESO are not “clunky, finger-massacre fests.” If you’re frantically button mashing, you’re doing it wrong. If you watch good players who record footage of their hands to demonstrate weaving/bar swap cancelling/etc. it’s all very fluid and smooth. Button mashing too quickly actually screws up your rotation. My advice to ANYONE who falsely blames animation cancelling for their poor DPS is this: start slow. Increase the speed of your rotation gradually, one bar at a time, instead of trying to play like the pros from day one. If you’re on PC, use the add on that displays a visual effect to let you know when the GCD has ended. It takes practice and time to get good at DPS, and animation cancelling is not a magic “I win” button that takes your DPS from 10k to 40k. Hardly anyone cancels the animation of every skill; most cancel the recovery animation of one or two skills at the most during a single rotation, and allow the animations of the vast majority of their skills to play out in full. Trying to cancel every animation gives MINIMAL benefits (and is actually more likely to DECREASE your DPS, as there’s much less room for error and it’s easier to screw up).
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
That's an example of animation canceling, albeit not one we think of often simply because we use it so often and so naturally.
I'm not great as using animation canceling in DPS rotations, but I definitely use bar swap canceling and block for a fluid, reactive combat.
Note: just a reminder that Light attack weaving (because there are still folks who argue that is animation canceling) is now being taught by ZOS in the Level Up Advisor.
I guess the answer is very short animations and action cancelling. I wouldn't want to see bar swapping cancelling an action though.
Actually, animation cancelling exists because ZOS didn’t want to lock players into completing channeled abilities before they could block heavy attacks or dodge-roll out of AOE.
Don't many channeled abilities themselves get cancelled?
Yes they do but you need to understand channeled skills when canceled only yeild as much as the channel allows, and the differences between interrupting a channel or hard cast ability and seeing it through to completion. What happens when you complete an uppercut for example? You successfully completely the hard cast, stay in range of target and connect the attack at which point you are (by design) no longer obligated to the ability in any way, then you then see a snipe going your way but you are forced to take the snipe because you are locked in a recovery animation (the weighted backsway after uppercut reaches its resolve point).... that would be ridiculous. So then what? Uppercut is desgined as a hard casted melee ability of which the cast time occupies the GCD, so do you tie the resolve point (the point where damage is rolled and delivered) to the tail end of the back sway recovery animation and then just speed the entire animation, recovery frames and all, into the cast time? You understand how ridiculous that would look and feel?.
Most people really don't understand just how terrible combat would look and feel, even moreso than what we have now, if every single ability in this game had its entire animation shrunk and sped up to fit within the GCD. The above example is not exclusive to hard cast abilities, the same applies to instant cast skills like suprise attack, which resolve instantly and have a brief follow through animation that occurs during the GCD.
Animation canceling is not a bug, its not an exploit, and its not an oversight. It is a literal byproduct of the greater, more important moving parts of esos combat system. It does not allow you to cheat, it does not allow you to squeeze more skills in an alloted time frame than otherwise allowed.
The discourse on the subject is fueled by those that simply dont understand what is actually happening under the hood.Edited by exeeter702 on May 12, 2018 5:19PM7 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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If they adjusted the length of the animations to the abilities cooldown length combat would stay exactly the same!This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.
It would, however, fix the problem of skills firing off before their animation has finished, animation canceling would be a thing of the past and people would stop complaining about it ...
Edited by SirAndy on May 12, 2018 5:56PM1 -
lao✭✭✭✭
If they adjusted the length of the animations to the abilities cooldown length combat would stay exactly the same!This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.
It would, however, fix the problem of skills firing off before their animation has finished, animation canceling would be a thing of the past and people would stop complaining about it ...
and it would also remove the only playerskill element this game has. just stop complaining about it and gitgud and you wont have anything to complain about.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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If they adjusted the length of the animations to the abilities cooldown length combat would stay exactly the same!This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.
It would, however, fix the problem of skills firing off before their animation has finished, animation canceling would be a thing of the past and people would stop complaining about it ...
and it would also remove the only playerskill element this game has. just stop complaining about it and gitgud and you wont have anything to complain about.
Are you even reading my posts? What part of "combat would stay exactly the same" do you not understand?
Changing the length of the animation to match the cooldown will not change how you weave attacks at all.
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
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If they adjusted the length of the animations to the abilities cooldown length combat would stay exactly the same!This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.
It would, however, fix the problem of skills firing off before their animation has finished, animation canceling would be a thing of the past and people would stop complaining about it ...
Skills fire off EXACTLY when they are designed to. No amount of "animation canceling" will result in a skill connecting faster than the game allows, regardless of what you see on your end of the client. And instant cast resolves instantly no matter what you do. Thinking otherwise is just an individual not knowing enough about the subject at hand. You fundamentally cannot reduce ability animations to fit within a 1 second GCD. You are not understanding how this combat system functions. That would literally break the game. And no, that is not hyperbole. The combat system requires players maintain agency for defensive actions. Abilities would look more *** than they do when you cut off the recovery animations now, and it would have no effect on actual combat, since the GCD allows you to input skills only so frequently anyways. That entire argument is redundant.
You are arguing for a cosmetic change while not realizing how that would ruin combat from an internal clock standpoint.Edited by exeeter702 on May 12, 2018 6:24PM4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
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If they adjusted the length of the animations to the abilities cooldown length combat would stay exactly the same!This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.
It would, however, fix the problem of skills firing off before their animation has finished, animation canceling would be a thing of the past and people would stop complaining about it ...
No, it wouldn’t. Instant skills ALWAYS fire off before the full animation completes. There is a recovery animation for every skill. Even if you shorten the total duration of the animations, some people would still cancel recovery animations if doing so allowed them squeeze in a light attack before the GCD ends. If damage was only calculated at the end of a recovery animation to deal with that issue, combat would feel laggy/unresponsive. If recovery animations were eliminated entirely, combat would look just as “jittery” as it does now when people animation cancel.
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
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If they adjusted the length of the animations to the abilities cooldown length combat would stay exactly the same!This game would be so slow and boring without attack weaving/animation cancelling.
It would, however, fix the problem of skills firing off before their animation has finished, animation canceling would be a thing of the past and people would stop complaining about it ...
No, it wouldn’t. Instant skills ALWAYS fire off before the full animation completes. There is a recovery animation for every skill. Even if you shorten the total duration of the animations, some people would still cancel recovery animations if doing so allowed them squeeze in a light attack before the GCD ends. If damage was only calculated at the end of a recovery animation to deal with that issue, combat would feel laggy/unresponsive. If recovery animations were eliminated entirely, combat would look just as “jittery” as it does now when people animation cancel.
Im telling you man, the only way people will understand is if zos dedicates an entire eso live episode to fully explaining and demonstrating what is happening and why right down to the code.
These threads never accomplish anything because they often end up drowned in misinformation, anecdotes and assumptions.Edited by exeeter702 on May 12, 2018 7:52PM2 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »You are arguing for a cosmetic change while not realizing how that would ruin combat from an internal clock standpoint.
No, it wouldn't. If the combat system had been designed correctly from the beginning we wouldn't even have this discussion. I've worked in the gaming industry as a programmer for many years and yes, i have designed and developed combat systems as well.
There is a right way to do this and ZOS could still fix this correctly with fairly little effort and no, it wouldn't ruin your combat experience.
Having animations that match the cooldown is crucial for fluid combat and instant attacks need very short animations.
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »You are arguing for a cosmetic change while not realizing how that would ruin combat from an internal clock standpoint.
No, it wouldn't. If the combat system had been designed correctly from the beginning we wouldn't even have this discussion. I've worked in the gaming industry as a programmer for many years and yes, i have designed and developed combat systems as well.
There is a right way to do this and ZOS could still fix this correctly with fairly little effort and no, it wouldn't ruin your combat experience.
Having animations that match the cooldown is crucial for fluid combat and instant attacks need very short animations.
Incredible....
But to indulge or humor you, explain how? I have clearly explained why it doesnt work on a fundamental level. Explain how instead of "im a game developer, i know".
Ive broken it down numerous times. The combat system was very specifically designed this way for the objective reasons already told to you. Even if you shortend the animations to playout within the GCD, it has zero bearing on anything because you are still by design afforded the option to take defensive actions at any point. It would just make combat look sped up, but it would change nothing in the realm of animation canceling because there would be no recovery animation to cancel. The result is the same. The only reason you think otherwise is likely because you belive canceling the recovery animations of a skill somehow creates a scenario where said skill is modified or executed faster in some way, which is utterly false.
Mmos like this operate under a governing universal Ability is timer to control player input server side, balance specific skills under the notion that they can only be used every X second, and are resource budgeted accordingly.
Tell me right here, how shortening the complete animation of a skill to fit within the GCD would have any tangible effect on combat from a mechancial standpoint beyond what we already have.3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »You are arguing for a cosmetic change while not realizing how that would ruin combat from an internal clock standpoint.
No, it wouldn't. If the combat system had been designed correctly from the beginning we wouldn't even have this discussion. I've worked in the gaming industry as a programmer for many years and yes, i have designed and developed combat systems as well.
There is a right way to do this and ZOS could still fix this correctly with fairly little effort and no, it wouldn't ruin your combat experience.
Having animations that match the cooldown is crucial for fluid combat and instant attacks need very short animations.
I personally would not mind if skill animation times and the GCD were perfectly synced; however, perfectly syncing those two things is NOT going to stop animation cancelling. Animation cancelling (for DPS purposes) is done (1) to ensure that the next skill is used as soon as it is possible to do so, i.e. the exact moment the GCD has expired, and (2) to offset the teeny tiny DPS loss associated with the bar swap animation. Because bar-swapping and light attacks are not affected by the GCD, players would still cancel animations to squeeze in LAs and bar-swaps between each GCD if ZOS perfectly synced skill animation times to the GCD. If I get to the end of my back bar rotation and allow my last skill to play out in full without cancelling it, there is going to be a tiny delay while I sit through the bar swap animation before I can activate my next skill. If I cancel the animation of the skill I use just before bar-swapping, I would be able to fire off the first skill on my front bar as soon as the GCD has expired, and thus mitigate the effects of that delay. As I said before, for your idea to work, skill animations would have to be SHORTER than the GCD — which might be even more jarring to look at than cancelled animations.
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Lunaugh✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »You are arguing for a cosmetic change while not realizing how that would ruin combat from an internal clock standpoint.
No, it wouldn't. If the combat system had been designed correctly from the beginning we wouldn't even have this discussion. I've worked in the gaming industry as a programmer for many years and yes, i have designed and developed combat systems as well.
There is a right way to do this and ZOS could still fix this correctly with fairly little effort and no, it wouldn't ruin your combat experience.
Having animations that match the cooldown is crucial for fluid combat and instant attacks need very short animations.
I personally would not mind if skill animation times and the GCD were perfectly synced; however, perfectly syncing those two things is NOT going to stop animation cancelling. Animation cancelling (for DPS purposes) is done (1) to ensure that the next skill is used as soon as it is possible to do so, i.e. the exact moment the GCD has expired, and (2) to offset the teeny tiny DPS loss associated with the bar swap animation. Because bar-swapping and light attacks are not affected by the GCD, players would still cancel animations to squeeze in LAs and bar-swaps between each GCD if ZOS perfectly synced skill animation times to the GCD. If I get to the end of my back bar rotation and allow my last skill to play out in full without cancelling it, there is going to be a tiny delay while I sit through the bar swap animation before I can activate my next skill. If I cancel the animation of the skill I use just before bar-swapping, I would be able to fire off the first skill on my front bar as soon as the GCD has expired, and thus mitigate the effects of that delay. As I said before, for your idea to work, skill animations would have to be SHORTER than the GCD — which might be even more jarring to look at than cancelled animations.
If the only animation canceling done was the final on your bar, I'd like it better than the way it is now. For me, depending on my weave, I swap every cast (inputs: 1,`,1,`,3,`,3,`,4 ; ` being my weapon swap key). I don't aCancel for DPS, I aCancel for buffs.
Again, I want to make it clear, I utilize every form of canceling I find useful to gain an edge in combat. I'm not asking for it to be removed/changed because I can't-use-it/won't-use-it/don't-use-it, I'm asking because as a gamer/consumer I think its an ugly mechanic which should be improved upon.dataOutput ={ }
function: ConvertMagica (dataOutput, magicaInput, skill,fn)
>>> if skill then do
>>>>>> magicaInput = fn(skill)
>>>>>>table.insert(dataOutput, magicaInput)
>>>end
end0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
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It's when I read posts like these that I convince myself that most MMORPG players (especially in this community) have never, EVER played a real action game.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
Putting aside the concept of animation canceling, it's the notion of RISK/REWARD too that this community is almost completely lacking.
Seems like everything I read around here is about "the faster, the better - nothing else matters" with the devs obeying that rule and delivering us these clunky, finger-massacre fest that rotations are in these game.
Meh.
It's when I read posts like these that I convince myself that most MMORPG players (especially in this community) have never, EVER played a real action game.VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
Putting aside the concept of animation canceling, it's the notion of RISK/REWARD too that this community is almost completely lacking.
Seems like everything I read around here is about "the faster, the better - nothing else matters" with the devs obeying that rule and delivering us these clunky, finger-massacre fest that rotations are in these game.
Meh.
Clunky finger massacre.
Instead of ability, ability, ability, its now click, ability, click, ability, click, ability.
Wow, so hard. I understand the fingermashing for a light/attack/bash burst combo for PvP, but its not a problem in PvE.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭One of the only thing that balances this game is ani cancelling. In PvP it’s one of the last things left to good solo and small scale players that sets them apart from the masses. And how is the ruining your immersion? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it. You can still pull decent numbers without AC. More likely you’re making AC out to be something it’s not and you’re blaming your inability to pull a certain dps or win in PvP on it and that’s why you want it gone.3 -
Lunaugh✭✭✭One of the only thing that balances this game is ani cancelling. In PvP it’s one of the last things left to good solo and small scale players that sets them apart from the masses. And how is the ruining your immersion? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it. You can still pull decent numbers without AC. More likely you’re making AC out to be something it’s not and you’re blaming your inability to pull a certain dps or win in PvP on it and that’s why you want it gone.
You do not see how it ruins my Imersion, I get that. You are not me and can not see through my eyes.
Now that we have learned that you are not me, lets learn something else: I am not you. I am competitivly driven, and will make the effort to remain competitive, even at the cost of certain other aspects of the game, which I refer to as imersive characteristics.
To be quite specific, animations abruptly ending (and the skill still firing) is my largest irk in the whole scenario.
Visit the descriptor ‘MMORPG’: RPG = Role Playing Game a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making of character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. (Thank you wikipedia)
In one post within this thread, it is pointed out that this is not an ‘action-game’. If this distinction is important, why would one be ok with sacrificing a portion of the roles ‘ilustration’ for the sake of ‘efficiency’.
Hopping around a battle field while casting (not the focus of my thread, but part of imersion) doesn’t happen in any fantasy battle scenario I have imagined, from readings to table top Warehammer Fantasy battles, to films based on Tolken’s books.
We are constantly working towards more immersive forms of gaming: take VR for example. The future of gaming is player immersion.dataOutput ={ }
function: ConvertMagica (dataOutput, magicaInput, skill,fn)
>>> if skill then do
>>>>>> magicaInput = fn(skill)
>>>>>>table.insert(dataOutput, magicaInput)
>>>end
end0 -
Micah_Bayer✭✭✭✭✭One of the only thing that balances this game is ani cancelling. In PvP it’s one of the last things left to good solo and small scale players that sets them apart from the masses. And how is the ruining your immersion? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it. You can still pull decent numbers without AC. More likely you’re making AC out to be something it’s not and you’re blaming your inability to pull a certain dps or win in PvP on it and that’s why you want it gone.
You do not see how it ruins my Imersion, I get that. You are not me and can not see through my eyes.
Now that we have learned that you are not me, lets learn something else: I am not you. I am competitivly driven, and will make the effort to remain competitive, even at the cost of certain other aspects of the game, which I refer to as imersive characteristics.
To be quite specific, animations abruptly ending (and the skill still firing) is my largest irk in the whole scenario.
Visit the descriptor ‘MMORPG’: RPG = Role Playing Game a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making of character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. (Thank you wikipedia)
In one post within this thread, it is pointed out that this is not an ‘action-game’. If this distinction is important, why would one be ok with sacrificing a portion of the roles ‘ilustration’ for the sake of ‘efficiency’.
Hopping around a battle field while casting (not the focus of my thread, but part of imersion) doesn’t happen in any fantasy battle scenario I have imagined, from readings to table top Warehammer Fantasy battles, to films based on Tolken’s books.
We are constantly working towards more immersive forms of gaming: take VR for example. The future of gaming is player immersion.
Why don't you play immersively then? Why drag everyone down to your level? Why would you mad the game less fun for others? You would ruin my immersion.4 -
For end-game PvE content, animation cancelling is completely overblown, If you can animation cancel Literally everything in your arsenal, then your rotation becomes around .3, .4 seconds quicker, over the entire fight; if you miss one animation cancel, then you may as well not cancelled at all; because every ability has a 1 second cooldown before the next can be cast, no matter how quickly you cancel it (Barring channeled skills)
The only time that animation cancelling is of any use is if you need that particular ability to be cast immediately and without a .2,.3 second delay (Crushing Shock on an interrupt, Springs in some healing scenarios). This relates to block animation cancelling, Bar-Swap cancelling does help and speed up your rotation a decent amount and is much easier to learn and pick up, and should be the only type of cancelling you should use.
In PvP, ani Cancelling can be used to pull off a burst combo a little quicker and as such is a little more useful in PvP than PvEXB- EU2 -
Lunaugh✭✭✭
Drag everyone down? I don’t think we are on the same page. I am imperfectly communicating the grand scenario within my mind.Micah_Bayer wrote: »One of the only thing that balances this game is ani cancelling. In PvP it’s one of the last things left to good solo and small scale players that sets them apart from the masses. And how is the ruining your immersion? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it. You can still pull decent numbers without AC. More likely you’re making AC out to be something it’s not and you’re blaming your inability to pull a certain dps or win in PvP on it and that’s why you want it gone.
You do not see how it ruins my Imersion, I get that. You are not me and can not see through my eyes.
Now that we have learned that you are not me, lets learn something else: I am not you. I am competitivly driven, and will make the effort to remain competitive, even at the cost of certain other aspects of the game, which I refer to as imersive characteristics.
To be quite specific, animations abruptly ending (and the skill still firing) is my largest irk in the whole scenario.
Visit the descriptor ‘MMORPG’: RPG = Role Playing Game a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making of character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. (Thank you wikipedia)
In one post within this thread, it is pointed out that this is not an ‘action-game’. If this distinction is important, why would one be ok with sacrificing a portion of the roles ‘ilustration’ for the sake of ‘efficiency’.
Hopping around a battle field while casting (not the focus of my thread, but part of imersion) doesn’t happen in any fantasy battle scenario I have imagined, from readings to table top Warehammer Fantasy battles, to films based on Tolken’s books.
We are constantly working towards more immersive forms of gaming: take VR for example. The future of gaming is player immersion.
Why don't you play immersively then? Why drag everyone down to your level? Why would you mad the game less fun for others? You would ruin my immersion.
If you take the variables discussed in the arguments:
Animations being abruptly cut off and the associated effects not being cut off.
There are many ways to find a compromise to my problem variables.
One way is to add cut off animations, hopefully accompanied by penalties for interupting; another is to have animations match the casting exactly, so as to eliminate the need for animation canceling altogether.
These solutions are already within this thread, and I find it hard to believe that there is no middle ground between us.
dataOutput ={ }
function: ConvertMagica (dataOutput, magicaInput, skill,fn)
>>> if skill then do
>>>>>> magicaInput = fn(skill)
>>>>>>table.insert(dataOutput, magicaInput)
>>>end
end0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Drag everyone down? I don’t think we are on the same page. I am imperfectly communicating the grand scenario within my mind.Micah_Bayer wrote: »One of the only thing that balances this game is ani cancelling. In PvP it’s one of the last things left to good solo and small scale players that sets them apart from the masses. And how is the ruining your immersion? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it. You can still pull decent numbers without AC. More likely you’re making AC out to be something it’s not and you’re blaming your inability to pull a certain dps or win in PvP on it and that’s why you want it gone.
You do not see how it ruins my Imersion, I get that. You are not me and can not see through my eyes.
Now that we have learned that you are not me, lets learn something else: I am not you. I am competitivly driven, and will make the effort to remain competitive, even at the cost of certain other aspects of the game, which I refer to as imersive characteristics.
To be quite specific, animations abruptly ending (and the skill still firing) is my largest irk in the whole scenario.
Visit the descriptor ‘MMORPG’: RPG = Role Playing Game a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making of character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. (Thank you wikipedia)
In one post within this thread, it is pointed out that this is not an ‘action-game’. If this distinction is important, why would one be ok with sacrificing a portion of the roles ‘ilustration’ for the sake of ‘efficiency’.
Hopping around a battle field while casting (not the focus of my thread, but part of imersion) doesn’t happen in any fantasy battle scenario I have imagined, from readings to table top Warehammer Fantasy battles, to films based on Tolken’s books.
We are constantly working towards more immersive forms of gaming: take VR for example. The future of gaming is player immersion.
Why don't you play immersively then? Why drag everyone down to your level? Why would you mad the game less fun for others? You would ruin my immersion.
If you take the variables discussed in the arguments:
Animations being abruptly cut off and the associated effects not being cut off.
There are many ways to find a compromise to my problem variables.
One way is to add cut off animations, hopefully accompanied by penalties for interupting; another is to have animations match the casting exactly, so as to eliminate the need for animation canceling altogether.
These solutions are already within this thread, and I find it hard to believe that there is no middle ground between us.
Those solutions are entirely absent in this thread... your suggesting that cutting off animations should equal cutting off effects is literally an incoherent suggestion made by those that are failing to understand what's actually happening here.
Tell me, how do you suggest, with your idea, they adjust a skill like... oh idk, any instant cast skill really, lets go with puncture for example. First let me lay out the laws of the game as they are desgined and how they effect puncture, these facs are not opinions and there is no room for rebuttal here amd please im not trying to be a prick for PLEASE read this carefully :
Isntant cast abilities trigger instantly. When you are within applicicable range of recipient (melee range in the case of puncture) and you activate the skill, it registers at that moment, no longer do you have any input to influence the outcome. The server does the rest. The MOMENT puncture is used, again THE VERY MOMENT PUNCTURE RESOLVES, the gcd is initiated. At this point in time you are locked out of hot bar abilities for 1 second. You are NOT locked out of bash, block, dodge roll and barbswap.
Since we are clear on that, now lets look at puncture's animation. Since the ability is an instant cast catagory skill, as mentioned, it resolves instantly so long as the criteria for it to connect to a target is met. So, the developers knowing this rule, animate the skill so that the visual thrust is succinctly displayed, the character quicking thrusts the weapon forward and stabs the target. It is animated in a way that the stabbing visual corresponds with when the client sends the information to the server to calculate damage, mitigation etc etc. Remember, at the moment you use the skill (independent of visual animations!) the GCD is triggered. So by the time your character makes the stab motion, the GCD is already .5 seconds in. The recovery animation of puncture shows the character pulling his right hand back into postion. This recovery animation and most instant cast abilities' recovery animations for that matter are animated in a way where the recovery nearly fits within the gcd and any that clip over it hardly look strange. Spam puncture without any light attacks and it will look like a natural repeating stab motion. Some skills are marginally cut off but we are talking .01 of a second territory here.
So understanding that, i ask you, how do you fit that animation to completely playout while making sure block, bash, roll dodge and barswap are available to players at any moment?
And, how would you implement a system of which using said defensive actions, resulting in cutting off the recovery animation, results in reducing the effectiveness of said instant cast skill? Especially since those skills resolve isntantly and the recovery animation plays out AFTER the game has already calculated damage.....
Please, ive taken the time to break this down, frame your suggestion that would actually work while under the laws of this games combat system.2
