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Smooth, animated transitions for animation canceling
Lunaugh
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Greetings fellow forum dwellers.
Back in my gaming prime, I was all about pushing games to their limit, finding the tricks to gain an edge against the competition. What combination of actions would break the balance?
From Super Smash Bros. wave-dashing to Warhammer 40k: Space Marine roll dashing, I've tweaked my share of games for a competitive edge.
Now past my prime and lacking the same amount of free time I find that such techniques, while valid, are evidence of broken programming.
Before I continue, I will admit that I utilize animation/weapon-swap canceling.
My problem is as follows: If one is to reach 'top tier', one has to sacrifice many aesthetic and/or immersive aspects in the game. It comes to the point that when you have 40 'top tier' players, it doesn't look like a fantasy battle at all. Its a whole bunch of hopping, random instantaneous weapons swapping, (visually) incomplete spell casting etc.
Immersion broken.
In my opinion, spells have specific animations and animation times for two reasons: one is immersion, two is balance. If, sans-cancel, another skill can not be cast until the animation of the first cast skill is completed, then it was intended that way.
I'd like to see the animation canceling removed. Thoughts?
Edited by Lunaugh on May 16, 2018 8:12PM Back in my gaming prime, I was all about pushing games to their limit, finding the tricks to gain an edge against the competition. What combination of actions would break the balance?
From Super Smash Bros. wave-dashing to Warhammer 40k: Space Marine roll dashing, I've tweaked my share of games for a competitive edge.
Now past my prime and lacking the same amount of free time I find that such techniques, while valid, are evidence of broken programming.
Before I continue, I will admit that I utilize animation/weapon-swap canceling.
My problem is as follows: If one is to reach 'top tier', one has to sacrifice many aesthetic and/or immersive aspects in the game. It comes to the point that when you have 40 'top tier' players, it doesn't look like a fantasy battle at all. Its a whole bunch of hopping, random instantaneous weapons swapping, (visually) incomplete spell casting etc.
Immersion broken.
In my opinion, spells have specific animations and animation times for two reasons: one is immersion, two is balance. If, sans-cancel, another skill can not be cast until the animation of the first cast skill is completed, then it was intended that way.
I'd like to see the animation canceling removed. Thoughts?
dataOutput ={ }
function: ConvertMagica (dataOutput, magicaInput, skill,fn)
>>> if skill then do
>>>>>> magicaInput = fn(skill)
>>>>>>table.insert(dataOutput, magicaInput)
>>>end
end
function: ConvertMagica (dataOutput, magicaInput, skill,fn)
>>> if skill then do
>>>>>> magicaInput = fn(skill)
>>>>>>table.insert(dataOutput, magicaInput)
>>>end
end
31
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
That's an example of animation canceling, albeit not one we think of often simply because we use it so often and so naturally.
I'm not great as using animation canceling in DPS rotations, but I definitely use bar swap canceling and block for a fluid, reactive combat.
Note: just a reminder that Light attack weaving (because there are still folks who argue that is animation canceling) is now being taught by ZOS in the Level Up Advisor.26 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭Instead, how about you take the 15 minutes to learn it. I am well over 40 and like anything practice makes perfect.Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.9 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
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Or you could take the time to read what he said.Instead, how about you take the 15 minutes to learn it. I am well over 40 and like anything practice makes perfect.Before I continue, I will admit that I utilize animation/weapon-swap canceling.
I don't mind animation canceling, it makes combat feel more alive.
Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade13 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
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Actually, animation cancelling exists because ZOS didn’t want to lock players into completing channeled abilities before they could block heavy attacks or dodge-roll out of AOE.
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So...if I'm in the middle of an attack and I see a skill happening that I need to block, I shouldn't be able to block until the animation of my current attack is finished?
That's an example of animation canceling, albeit not one we think of often simply because we use it so often and so naturally.
I'm not great as using animation canceling in DPS rotations, but I definitely use bar swap canceling and block for a fluid, reactive combat.
Note: just a reminder that Light attack weaving (because there are still folks who argue that is animation canceling) is now being taught by ZOS in the Level Up Advisor.
I guess the answer is very short animations and action cancelling. I wouldn't want to see bar swapping cancelling an action though.
Actually, animation cancelling exists because ZOS didn’t want to lock players into completing channeled abilities before they could block heavy attacks or dodge-roll out of AOE.
Don't many channeled abilities themselves get cancelled?Edited by DaveMoeDee on May 11, 2018 7:54PM0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you remove animation cancelling, you can kiss blocking goodbye. You think tanks are hard to find now. When you can't use an ability for fear that it will lock you out of blocking for the entire animation then your only solution is to just never use abilities out of that fear, forcing tanks into nothing more than holding down block for the entirety of any difficult boss fight that includes any one shot mechanics.8 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »If you remove animation cancelling, you can kiss blocking goodbye. You think tanks are hard to find now. When you can't use an ability for fear that it will lock you out of blocking for the entire animation then your only solution is to just never use abilities out of that fear, forcing tanks into nothing more than holding down block for the entirety of any difficult boss fight that includes any one shot mechanics.
Blocking can cancel the ability instead of just cancelling the animation.
This, of course, does not fix the OP's complaint about how ugly combat looks.7 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »If you remove animation cancelling, you can kiss blocking goodbye. You think tanks are hard to find now. When you can't use an ability for fear that it will lock you out of blocking for the entire animation then your only solution is to just never use abilities out of that fear, forcing tanks into nothing more than holding down block for the entirety of any difficult boss fight that includes any one shot mechanics.
Blocking can cancel the ability instead of just cancelling the animation.
This, of course, does not fix the OP's complaint about how ugly combat looks.
This doesn't work with abilities that take effect instantly, which are most in the game. Of course that could be changed. Though I wouldn't like to see my ability to perform both offensive and defensive actions at the same time, making it so much harder to fight multiple opponents at once. Blockcasting would also end up in a weird spot, where either perma blocking is rewarded much more than currently or you remove it entirely, making blocking a very weak tool in the process.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »If you remove animation cancelling, you can kiss blocking goodbye. You think tanks are hard to find now. When you can't use an ability for fear that it will lock you out of blocking for the entire animation then your only solution is to just never use abilities out of that fear, forcing tanks into nothing more than holding down block for the entirety of any difficult boss fight that includes any one shot mechanics.
Blocking can cancel the ability instead of just cancelling the animation.
This, of course, does not fix the OP's complaint about how ugly combat looks.
This doesn't work with abilities that take effect instantly, which are most in the game. Of course that could be changed. Though I wouldn't like to see my ability to perform both offensive and defensive actions at the same time, making it so much harder to fight multiple opponents at once. Blockcasting would also end up in a weird spot, where either perma blocking is rewarded much more than currently or you remove it entirely, making blocking a very weak tool in the process.
I personally don't consider aesthetics a good reason to mess with combat at this point. Seems fun to me. And as someone who usually tanks, I want to be able to put up my shield and dodge as needed.2 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think you understand how animation canceling works. You are talking about ability canceling, which is perfectly fine.
Actually, animation cancelling exists because ZOS didn’t want to lock players into completing channeled abilities before they could block heavy attacks or dodge-roll out of AOE.
The problem with animation canceling is that if you "cancel" after the internal cooldown but before the animation end, the skill will still fire without the animation for it to ever finish.
For your example, that would be the equivalent to being able to cast an ability and half way through using block while your skill still fires off.
If the animations were the same length as a skills internal cooldown, there would be no animation canceling. Canceling a cast ability would do exactly that, *cancel* the actual cast, not just the animation.
Edited by SirAndy on May 11, 2018 10:33PM7 -
lao✭✭✭✭everytime i see some1 advocating to remove the only skillful mechanic this game has to offer for the sake of immersion (in an mmo lulz) i get a brain aneurysm.8
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huschdeguddzje✭✭✭✭It shouldn't exist, I don't like it but I learned it, and am happy to increase my performance. Adapt or be left behind.Edited by huschdeguddzje on May 11, 2018 11:30PM3
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Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think you understand how animation canceling works. You are talking about ability canceling, which is perfectly fine.
Actually, animation cancelling exists because ZOS didn’t want to lock players into completing channeled abilities before they could block heavy attacks or dodge-roll out of AOE.
The problem with animation canceling is that if you "cancel" after the internal cooldown but before the animation end, the skill will still fire without the animation for it to ever finish.
For your example, that would be the equivalent to being able to cast an ability and half way through using block while your skill still fires off.
If the animations were the same length as a skills internal cooldown, there would be no animation canceling. Canceling a cast ability would do exactly that, *cancel* the actual cast, not just the animation.
I understand how animation cancelling works; I bar swap cancel twice per rotation.
The point I was making is that the priority system that makes animation cancelling possible is a crucial part of the game. Also? Even if, as you suggest, the length of every animation were synced to the GCD (which is 1.2 seconds, IIRC), some people would STILL cancel the recovery sequence of the animation to throw in a light attack. The animation would have to be SHORTER than the GCD to truly combat animation cancelling, as light attack weaving is required to maximize DPS, and will be even more important in Summerset. The primary arguments people make against animation cancelling are that they “can’t react in time,” that it’s “too fast” for their “arthritic hands,” and that it looks “jittery.” These issues would remain for these people if all skill animations were less than 1.2 seconds in duration to allow for effective light attack weaving between each skill. If ZOS were to increase the GCD and the animation time in an effort to placate these people, gameplay would become unbearably slow.
Furthermore: VERY few people out there are block-cancelling every single skill (especially in Cyrodiil, where lag is a factor). Most people bar-swap cancel the recovery animations of longer, clunkier skills (e.g. volatile familiar, endless hail, etc.) at the most. Otherwise? You’re still seeing most of the skill animations. The suggestion that all competent ESO players out there are going around cancelling all their skill animations is an extreme over-exaggeration.
Seriously, people: stop complaining about animation cancelling. There’s beating the horse to death, and then there’s grinding it into a bloody pulp. Enough already.10 -
AlexTheLion✭✭✭Not everyone plays this game for “immersion” so it’s annoying when people cry about animation cancelling ruining that or “animation cancelling is op plz nerf” threads. If you don’t like how it looks then don’t animation cancel, and to the people that think it’s an unfair advantage L2P and then it won’t be.5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is quite simple and logical why it is valid.
1. Devs have clearly and publicly stated AC is legit.
2. Devs, via muiltiple changes including what is on PTS right now has reinforced weaving light attacks as important to doing damage.
Those along are all that needs to be stated. The replies that state Zos could not figure out how to fix it is just grasping at straws since it is clearly not challenging to figure out a solution if that was the path Zos chose.
The bigger question is why, 3 years after Zos blessed AC, do these threads keep popping up?5 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Ok good, so my initial post was correct then ...I understand how animation cancelling works; I bar swap cancel twice per rotation.
The point I was making is that the priority system that makes animation cancelling possible is a crucial part of the game. Also? Even if, as you suggest, the length of every animation were synced to the GCD (which is 1.2 seconds, IIRC), some people would STILL cancel the recovery sequence of the animation to throw in a light attack. The animation would have to be SHORTER than the GCD to truly combat animation cancelling, as light attack weaving is required to maximize DPS, and will be even more important in Summerset. The primary arguments people make against animation cancelling are that they “can’t react in time,” that it’s “too fast” for their “arthritic hands,” and that it looks “jittery.” These issues would remain for these people if all skill animations were less than 1.2 seconds in duration to allow for effective light attack weaving between each skill. If ZOS were to increase the GCD and the animation time in an effort to placate these people, gameplay would become unbearably slow.
Furthermore: VERY few people out there are block-cancelling every single skill (especially in Cyrodiil, where lag is a factor). Most people bar-swap cancel the recovery animations of longer, clunkier skills (e.g. volatile familiar, endless hail, etc.) at the most. Otherwise? You’re still seeing most of the skill animations. The suggestion that all competent ESO players out there are going around cancelling all their skill animations is an extreme over-exaggeration.
Seriously, people: stop complaining about animation cancelling. There’s beating the horse to death, and then there’s grinding it into a bloody pulp. Enough already.
Because ZOS can't figure out how to make animations that have the same length as the internal cooldown for abilities so they simply came back and called it a "feature".
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CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You can only cancel instant cast abilities. Ergo, you are not cancelling or forgoing any required animation from a balance perspective. Instant cast=instant delivery on press. All animation cancelling does is trim off the fluff from the animation for more fluid and seamless movements.3 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You can only cancel instant cast abilities. Ergo, you are not cancelling or forgoing any required animation from a balance perspective. Instant cast=instant delivery on press. All animation cancelling does is trim off the fluff from the animation for more fluid and seamless movements.
Which I think is OP's point, leading to:
The point is, if the animation was exactly the length of the GCD, aka if the animation was already finished prior to hitting LA - the animation would play out and combat would be exactly the same.
The point isn't changing weaving, but changing the animation so that it actually is what the cast time says it is.
Instant should be instant, the animation should instant and done before my finger even hits the LA button8 -
Jimmy_The_Fixer✭✭✭✭✭Immersion doesn't exist for multiplayer content, I don't know how you feel like you're really in a fantasy world when xxBubbaGumpxx is spamming chat with "LF bone pirate boots w/impen, paying gold"
The only content that you can actually get immersed in is the solo stuff, and that's easy enough that you don't need to animation cancel do get through it.5 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »You can only cancel instant cast abilities. Ergo, you are not cancelling or forgoing any required animation from a balance perspective. Instant cast=instant delivery on press. All animation cancelling does is trim off the fluff from the animation for more fluid and seamless movements.
Which I think is OP's point, leading to:
The point is, if the animation was exactly the length of the GCD, aka if the animation was already finished prior to hitting LA - the animation would play out and combat would be exactly the same.
The point isn't changing weaving, but changing the animation so that it actually is what the cast time says it is.
Instant should be instant, the animation should instant and done before my finger even hits the LA button
So you mean the animation should stop as soon as the damage is done? Wouldn’t that... also result in the unnatural “jitteriness” people think they’re seeing when people animation cancel? As things currently stand, animations are already pretty fast. Animation cancelling simply shaves off the recovery period (we’re talking milliseconds here) when your character’s hands/weapons move back to their original positions. If the entire animation sequence (including the recovery period) were sped up, it would look only slightly less unnatural than it does when people animation cancel.
Also, light attacks are not affected by the GCD. So again, unless skill animations were SHORTER than the GCD, a small number of people would still try to block cancel the tail end of the animation to ensure that they get a light attack in before they fire off their next skill (which they do AS SOON AS the GCD expires). If animations were shorter than the GCD, the same people who bleat about ESO’s combat being too fast and visually unappealing to them would continue to bleat.
I also have to emphasize, yet again, that block cancelling is very, very rare. Most people bar swap cancel once or twice per rotation. The rest of their skills play out in full. There is a frustratingly large number of people who visit these forums who mistakenly think that they die in PVP because the other guy/gal is bypassing the GCD with animation cancelling (which isn’t even possible), when in actual fact, they’re dying due to latency/intelligent use of burst/etc. These people also think that “animation cancelling” is the reason why they only do 10k DPS and get kicked from dungeons, when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »You can only cancel instant cast abilities. Ergo, you are not cancelling or forgoing any required animation from a balance perspective. Instant cast=instant delivery on press. All animation cancelling does is trim off the fluff from the animation for more fluid and seamless movements.
Which I think is OP's point, leading to:
The point is, if the animation was exactly the length of the GCD, aka if the animation was already finished prior to hitting LA - the animation would play out and combat would be exactly the same.
The point isn't changing weaving, but changing the animation so that it actually is what the cast time says it is.
Instant should be instant, the animation should instant and done before my finger even hits the LA button
So you mean the animation should stop as soon as the damage is done? Wouldn’t that... also result in the unnatural “jitteriness” people think they’re seeing when people animation cancel? As things currently stand, animations are already pretty fast. Animation cancelling simply shaves off the recovery period (we’re talking milliseconds here) when your character’s hands/weapons move back to their original positions. If the entire animation sequence (including the recovery period) were sped up, it would look only slightly less unnatural than it does when people animation cancel.
Also, light attacks are not affected by the GCD. So again, unless skill animations were SHORTER than the GCD, a small number of people would still try to block cancel the tail end of the animation to ensure that they get a light attack in before they fire off their next skill (which they do AS SOON AS the GCD expires). If animations were shorter than the GCD, the same people who bleat about ESO’s combat being too fast and visually unappealing to them would continue to bleat.
I also have to emphasize, yet again, that block cancelling is very, very rare. Most people bar swap cancel once or twice per rotation. The rest of their skills play out in full. There is a frustratingly large number of people who visit these forums who mistakenly think that they die in PVP because the other guy/gal is bypassing the GCD with animation cancelling (which isn’t even possible), when in actual fact, they’re dying due to latency/intelligent use of burst/etc. These people also think that “animation cancelling” is the reason why they only do 10k DPS and get kicked from dungeons, when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
I understand you, just saying, all that "fluff" shouldn't exist in the first place.
I also don't think you can get more jittery than it is now.
Hell, with Incap, the animation plays long after I'm hit2 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Animation cancelling is a absolute necessity for this game or in fact most games with live combat to even work. Removing it is simply not a thing.
Reworking animations to look good when being cancelled would be great though.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)2 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »You can only cancel instant cast abilities. Ergo, you are not cancelling or forgoing any required animation from a balance perspective. Instant cast=instant delivery on press. All animation cancelling does is trim off the fluff from the animation for more fluid and seamless movements.
Which I think is OP's point, leading to:
The point is, if the animation was exactly the length of the GCD, aka if the animation was already finished prior to hitting LA - the animation would play out and combat would be exactly the same.
The point isn't changing weaving, but changing the animation so that it actually is what the cast time says it is.
Instant should be instant, the animation should instant and done before my finger even hits the LA button
So you mean the animation should stop as soon as the damage is done? Wouldn’t that... also result in the unnatural “jitteriness” people think they’re seeing when people animation cancel? As things currently stand, animations are already pretty fast. Animation cancelling simply shaves off the recovery period (we’re talking milliseconds here) when your character’s hands/weapons move back to their original positions. If the entire animation sequence (including the recovery period) were sped up, it would look only slightly less unnatural than it does when people animation cancel.
Also, light attacks are not affected by the GCD. So again, unless skill animations were SHORTER than the GCD, a small number of people would still try to block cancel the tail end of the animation to ensure that they get a light attack in before they fire off their next skill (which they do AS SOON AS the GCD expires). If animations were shorter than the GCD, the same people who bleat about ESO’s combat being too fast and visually unappealing to them would continue to bleat.
I also have to emphasize, yet again, that block cancelling is very, very rare. Most people bar swap cancel once or twice per rotation. The rest of their skills play out in full. There is a frustratingly large number of people who visit these forums who mistakenly think that they die in PVP because the other guy/gal is bypassing the GCD with animation cancelling (which isn’t even possible), when in actual fact, they’re dying due to latency/intelligent use of burst/etc. These people also think that “animation cancelling” is the reason why they only do 10k DPS and get kicked from dungeons, when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
I understand you, just saying, all that "fluff" shouldn't exist in the first place.
I also don't think you can get more jittery than it is now.
Hell, with Incap, the animation plays long after I'm hit
I’m not sure I follow you. By “fluff,” are you referring to the recovery animation? If so, then you’re essentially saying that you want the same visual effect of animation cancelling, without having to physically cancel the animation yourself... That WOULD result in a more “jittery” visual experience, because again, very few ESO players are using animation cancelling on almost every single skill. Most allow their skill animations to play out in full, unless they’re bar swapping at the end of a rotation. Same goes for PVP, minus the rotation bit. If you suddenly die to a barrage of skills in Cyrodiil that seem to hit you all at once, it’s usually due to server lag, or due to well-timed burst that has next to nothing to do with animation cancelling.
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ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭My problem is as follows: If one is to reach 'top tier', one has to sacrifice many aesthetic and/or immersive aspects in the game. It comes to the point that when you have 40 'top tier' players, it doesn't look like a fantasy battle at all. Its a whole bunch of hopping, random instantaneous weapons swapping, (visually) incomplete spell casting etc.
Immersion broken.
I'm going to assume you've never reached "top tier" in any other game, because every other game is the same way.I'd like to see the animation canceling removed. Thoughts?
My thoughts are that zos is not going to overhaul the entire combat system because some people don't think it's pretty enough.Gryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer1 -
Lunaugh✭✭✭My problem is as follows: If one is to reach 'top tier', one has to sacrifice many aesthetic and/or immersive aspects in the game. It comes to the point that when you have 40 'top tier' players, it doesn't look like a fantasy battle at all. Its a whole bunch of hopping, random instantaneous weapons swapping, (visually) incomplete spell casting etc.
Immersion broken.
I'm going to assume you've never reached "top tier" in any other game, because every other game is the same way.I'd like to see the animation canceling removed. Thoughts?
My thoughts are that zos is not going to overhaul the entire combat system because some people don't think it's pretty enough.
If you would include my whole statement, rather than removing the parts you want from context, you'd have my admission to understanding that 'every other game is the same way'. The difference between this game (my first MMO btw) and the other games I've played is active and ongoing development. Other games I've played were finished products; no more patching, no more balancing. Here, there is the possibility of rectifying the hiccups.Edited by Lunaugh on May 12, 2018 4:57AMdataOutput ={ }
function: ConvertMagica (dataOutput, magicaInput, skill,fn)
>>> if skill then do
>>>>>> magicaInput = fn(skill)
>>>>>>table.insert(dataOutput, magicaInput)
>>>end
end1 -
XiDiabolismiX✭✭✭You guys do understand the reason behind animation cancelling right? The way combat is set up in this game with things you have to interrupt and block, you have to be very reactive. If you cast a skill with a 3 second long animation and there’s a one shot mechanic that needs to be blocked, and you block it, you’re essentially using animation cancelling.
Its not anywhere near as rewarding as it use to be. There are internal cool downs with skills now so that even if you want to animation cancel your booty off, you’re only going to pull a minuscule amount of dps higher.
I’ve tried dps parses with a fully animation cancelling rotation, and one where I let all the animations play through and its relatively the same. The biggest factor in dpsing is weaving light and heavy attacks correctly between skills.
Edit: @VaranisArano my bad! I just read through the comments and saw your post was almost identical lolEdited by XiDiabolismiX on May 12, 2018 11:04AM7
