Suggestion - Adding Craft Bag Without ESO Plus

JD2013 · May 2018

The crafting bag is an incentive for subscribing. To give away that incentive would massively shoot ZOS in the foot.

And it seems to be a pretty effective incentive too, so ... Why would they ever make it available to non subscribers?

Walting · May 2018

The crafting bag might be a central part of ESO+ but it is definitely not the only selling proposition.

Also ESO+ becomes more valueable each time a new DLC is added to the game. The double bank space might seem to be worthless but in case you have "space" problem it is a huge plus too.

If you are into costumes and dying stuff, ESO+ is also very helpful. Same with housing and the amount of items you can place there.

While i like the idea of getting the Crafting Bag through crwons in the crown store i think the price would be absurdly high, but rightfully so.

jedtb16_ESO · May 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

The game you love today is here thanks to all the people spending money on subbing and the crownstore. So when I read your post all I see is another person that wanna get it free, wanna skip the bill, wanna leach of the rest.. I think it's ok that the game is free after you paid the base price(meaning no requirement to sub), but don't push it. Pay your share, get benefits or be grateful for what you can do without paying anything extra.

I subbed to the game since release and I know there are many of us. Thx everyone that drops that little extra in from time to time, we make the game possible.

You know, this kind of attitude is not helpful to discussion. The whole "if you want X to be part of the base game then you want everything for free" is a strawman.

I, too, have subbed to the game since it came out. It subbed for the period when ESO+ didn't have a craft bag. I will continue subbing if the craft bag becomes part of the base game.

I just think that the craftbag is such a huge quality of life improvement that it should be available to everyone. Because at the end of the day, people who enjoy the game spend money on it. Smart marketing makes you *want* to throw money at the game. Bad marketing makes you feel like you *have to* (I'm looking at you, Black Desert...)

it is available to everyone, just like the base game is available to everyone.

want the base game? buy it.

want the craft bag? sub.

TazESO · May 2018

No. We subbers FINALLY have something to sub for. Sub if you want the craft bag.

Edited to fix typo.

wolfie1.0. · May 2018

ZOS has given people more storage. There's the housing storage. Which you dont need real money for. Also about twice a year they do the free sub promo. Which recently ended. if you plan that right you can maximize that. Also you dont need to STAY subbed yo plus. I know plenty of players who save up and get plus for 1 month load their bags full and then drop it until they can get it again. It's very manageable

Edit: I also want to add that many use the crowns from the temporary sub to buy the dlcs they want.

starkerealm · May 2018

Juju_beans wrote: »

Dire wrote: »

dannymcgr81b14_ESO wrote: »

Dire wrote: »

Granting players access to the Craft Bag for free should also be a great incentive for players to spend crowns as well (wink).
Dire

How do you figure this? If they are not willing to spend 15 bucks for eso plus which comes with the craft bag, double bank space, all kinds of bonuses and 1500 crowns, why do you think they would spend 15 bucks for just 1500 crowns?

Because if we do not have to pay 15 dollars a month, we will be able to spend that money elsewhere on things like crowns. Thanks for the response! I do love the fact we also get 1500 crowns for the Sub though, very friendly incentive.

There is no guarantee that your $15 will come back to Zos each and every month.
The sub provides a guaranteed income stream for the company.
The crown store purchases are variable from month to month.

The hilarious thing about the, "they could get the money anyway," argument is, like Dire pointed out, you get 15 bucks worth of crowns for subscribing anyway. "No, I wouldn't sub, I'd buy an extra $15 a month..." Like you do now?

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2018

Not going to happen. Crafting Bag is a huge draw for ESO+. Dropping it from the sub would be ZOS intentionally shooting themselves in the foot. And while theyve shot themselves in the foot before, this would be absolutely intentional rather than by mistake.

AlnilamE · May 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Dire wrote: »

dannymcgr81b14_ESO wrote: »

Dire wrote: »

Granting players access to the Craft Bag for free should also be a great incentive for players to spend crowns as well (wink).
Dire

How do you figure this? If they are not willing to spend 15 bucks for eso plus which comes with the craft bag, double bank space, all kinds of bonuses and 1500 crowns, why do you think they would spend 15 bucks for just 1500 crowns?

Because if we do not have to pay 15 dollars a month, we will be able to spend that money elsewhere on things like crowns. Thanks for the response! I do love the fact we also get 1500 crowns for the Sub though, very friendly incentive.

There is no guarantee that your $15 will come back to Zos each and every month.
The sub provides a guaranteed income stream for the company.
The crown store purchases are variable from month to month.

The hilarious thing about the, "they could get the money anyway," argument is, like Dire pointed out, you get 15 bucks worth of crowns for subscribing anyway. "No, I wouldn't sub, I'd buy an extra $15 a month..." Like you do now?

And the same argument goes for "the craft bag is the only incentive for subscribing". You are getting 1500 crowns along with other perks too.

But it seems that a lot of people who only subscribe because of the craft bag are being held hostage by it. :-P

Grendel_at_ESO · May 2018

Why pay for a subscription then, it's the biggest value in having it.

SirDopey · May 2018

I'll honestly cancel my sub and stop playing if they do that. #stopshaftingeso+subscribers

Gidorick · May 2018

We were suggesting these sorts of additions well before ESO+ added Crafting bags. Here's an excerpt from a post I made in April 2015:

Gidorick wrote: »

Inventory continues to be an issue in ESO, but this doesn’t mean that everyone can’t be given an opportunity to benefit from a few items that could be added to the crown store.
...
Bag Suggestions
No-Restriction Inventory Bags: These bags provide a set number of inventory spaces. ...

Lock-Boxes: ... Placing an item in a lockbox will keep it safe (from deconstruction)...

Thieves Bags:These inventory bags can only accept items that are stolen and not yet laundered. ...

Crafting Material Bags: These bags have enough spaces to hold one stack of every type of material for the specific craft. ...

Fisherman's Tackle : Provides enough room to carry a stack of each type of bait and a stack of each type of available fish. ...

...

Thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162693/limited-bags-crafting-bags-encumbrance-concepts/p1

The post goes into more detail and has some additional concepts but what I'm trying to illustrate is ZOS has used Crafting Bags to make ESO+ essential to the enjoyment of ESO. They made inventory cumbersome and put the tools to better manage that inventory behind a pay-wall.

They could add Crown Store bags for us to use in conjunction with ESO+ (as I suggested in my edited thread linked above) but they seem to want to make it so a player must pay for ESO+ to get the full ESO experience.

neverwalk · May 2018

500 crowns for Craft Bag dump for expired ESO+

idk · May 2018

@Dire

Besides Zos clearly stating crafting bags will never be available outside of the ESO+, there is also the logic behind why it is only available in ESO+.

It is intended to encourage people to subscribe. The entire reason it was added. Heck, your OP drives home the point how great that decision to add them to ESO+ is.

Subscribe and you will get it.

EDIT: your comment that granting the crafting bag for free somehow would get people to spend more crowns lacks any resemblance of logic and falls flat.

G1Countdown · May 2018

I'm going to say no. It helps continue support the game remaining with ESO+.

And as previously mentioned, it is possible to get additional housing storage for your home. You can either PVP/Quest in IC or focus on master writs.That will greatly increase your storage. And, I know this is a hoarder's game, but a lot of this stuff you don't need. Decon what you can, list stuff in the guild store, and vendor the stuff that's not worth anything. Or, subscribe.

Sevn · May 2018

Honestly, while extremely convenient the crafting bag shouldn't be as needed with the introduction of housing storage. Crafting items stack and an additional 360 storage is alot.

xeNNNNN · May 2018

Gythral wrote: »

See earlier threads on said subject!
Now go out and do a few hours labour for min. wage or drink a few less Starbucks a month and pay for something you enjoy!

Somewhat harsh, many including loyal subs like me argued that it should of been part of the game from the beginning. The inventory in this game is poorly designed.

I agree with everyone here though; never going to happen. It really is the only thing making people sub to be honest beyond DLC access if they CBA to buy them.

DamenAJ · May 2018

I'd be okay with it being in the crown store for 1.5k-2k per month(2k because sales...) But not likely to happen...

I think maybe an increase in bank space might be a happy medium. Considering bank space is for all characters, it feels low.

I know it sucks having to go back and forth to shops and banks to clear out your bag, but it also kind of helps you learn what to keep and what to toss, learn what's valuable, and learn not to hoard. I sold WAY more before I got the craft bag, now I'm just an epic hoarder, just selling enough to make my guild dues...

starkerealm · May 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

Your suggestion needs to be something equally as good as the crafting bag. People have been asking for handouts in this game since shortly after it became a B2P model, but they never have a suggestion for what ZOS could do to keep up optional subs. The alternative would be even more things becoming crown only items, coupled with less creative DLCs (after the inevitable employee purge to make up for the lost revenue), mixed with higher crown store prices, because why wrack your brain (as ZOS marketing department), when the answer is right in front of you.

Honestly, right out of the box, they should have made the Craft Bag part of the base game and let subscribers use the Merchant and Banker without buying them while subbed.

No, I think this thread, and the previous one, do kinda indicate that they got the craft bag exactly right.

It is possible to do your crafting without the craft bag. I mean, we all managed for two and a half years with out the bag. It's a little annoying, and it does push you to sell stuff you're not using, but the game is completely playable without it.

It's an amazing convenience item, however. Stuff goes in there and we just forget it exists until the next time. It is really useful as a time saver, and does make the game more enjoyable by cutting down on the inventory management. The sheer number of people, myself included, who subscribe primarily for the bag, should illustrate this.

So... do I want free stuff? Well, yes. At the same time, I do understand that the game does need a healthy subscriber base to keep going. MMOs need cash to remain operational. That's not greed. MMOs aren't like most games, where once it's out the door, then 99% of development is done, and all that's left is patch fixes. New stuff is always in the works, and old stuff is getting fixed. (Yes, even when our personal bugbears are left untouched, patch after patch, the vast majority of issues do get addressed.)

This means that the development team needs to keep operating throughout the life cycle of the game. (There have been publishers that viewed MMOs as a normal publish and you're done setup, in the past. Atari comes to mind here. This results in games where you're expected to sub for years without any new content coming out.)

So, back to ESO. The Craft Bag helps keep people subscribed. It is an excellently calibrated pain point. Just enticing enough that it's worth paying for, without being so valuable you actually need it to play. So far as it goes, I'd actually say the other Subscriber benefits (the extra bank storage and the housing limits) are nice, but mostly meaningless. That Craft Bag, though...

So, would I like it permanently? Well, yes. But, I also understand why it really should be gated as a subscriber perk and nowhere else.

I do see your point, but then, they could have just left the game subscription-only and be done with it, no?

Probably not.

I mean, there is a huge difference between a mandatory subscription and a optional subscription model where you're paying for extra goodies.

The game is not, literally, unplayable without a subscription. You're just gated off from some features. Yes, one of those features is extremely nice, to the point that some people, you and me included, consider this essential to the experience.

However, you are not completely locked out of the game if you don't pay your subscription fee. That can be a major turnoff for potential players, especially ones not used to MMOs. Given this is part of a franchise of non-MMOs, that's a detail worth remembering.

Also, I'm pretty sure the old subscription model is pretty much dead for the entire industry. Aside from WoW, I can't think of a single subscription only MMO that has managed to hold its place in the market. Part of this goes back to what I just said, being told, "you don't pay, you can't play at all," is a much steeper barrier to entry than, "we have some optional stuff if you subscribe." In fact, I passed on a lot of MMOs over the years because I found the idea of, "renting," a game distasteful. In retrospect the first MMO I paid a sub fee on was one of the first subscription optional business models (Hellgate: London, if you're wondering.) So saying, "they could have just kept the subscription mandatory," I'm not so sure.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Considering how many people run around with new mounts and pets whenever they come out, I feel that the crown store makes them a fair chunk of money. And I again maintain that a happy playerbase is more likely to spend money on your game than an unhappy one.

While both of these details are true, the lack of a craft bag probably doesn't predispose people to be unhappy with the game.

Again, the craft bag is really nice to have, but it's not vital to the experience. At least not in contrast to something like being unable to actually log in and play the game.

The craft bag is a neat to have, but it's not vital to playing the game. This makes it land, pretty solidly, in the range of stuff that makes you want to sub, without also FORCING you to.

AlnilamE wrote: »

I personally don't like feeling that I *have* to spend money on something that's labelled as "optional" and if I didn't have ESO+ simply because it's my way of supporting the game, regardless of what the perks are, I would feel that, and it would make me less likely to sub and play.

While I don't really think about it, I'm pretty sure the craft bag is the main reason I subscribe. DLC access, sure, that's cool. The extra bank space is very useful to my packrat tendencies. But, that craft bag? I "need" that.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Also, keep in mind that even players who only buy the game and never spend a single crown are part of the ecosystem and by increasing the population they make the game more enjoyable for everyone, so giving them less inconveniences to deal with will make them more likely to stay.

Agreed. I've gone back and forth over the years about buy to play setups, and... in large part due to how Funcom derped it up with TSW, I was more than a little pessimistic when ESO announced that was the route they were going. But, I do think that's probably the best approach these days.

The up front box cost culls out the worst of the F2P trolls. Without a mandatory subscription fee gating players who don't want to have a recurring payment, or feel like a subscription is, "renting."

The stuff in the cash shop could be a bit cheaper, but, on the whole, that's not a deal breaker.

AlnilamE wrote: »

And I know we lived without the craft bag (even when we were subbing to ESO+ without it). I had a very elaborate inventory management scheme going. But since the craft bag was introduced, we have seen an increase in crafting mats that makes managing inventory without it more difficult with each update. So if ZOS is not going to make it available, they should at least streamline crafting mats again to make playing without it easier to manage.

Even with the craft bag, some kind of material streamlining should probably happen. I mean, it's happened once before with Provisioning. Alchemy's pretty much the only outlier here, where I'd say the mat list is reasonable.

I mean, the original design intent was that we wouldn't be able to do all the crafting professions. I'd make enchantments, you'd make alchemy, and we'd trade. The idea of a player that did everything wasn't supposed to happen. To say nothing of a player who did everything and crafting wasn't their only occupation in game.

With equipment, provisioning, enchanting, and alchemy, you're going to get choked on materials, and I think that was the original intent. I don't think that's relevant to how players approach the game today, but that was the design. So, the craft bag became a bandaid over that, rather than getting an actual fix.

As the game exists today, I think there does need to be some streamlining of the crafting system (and probably gear itemization.) There's an element of that with jewelry crafting, where the total material tiers have been culled down to 5. I think that's a good start, and something that should probably come to the other crafts as well. As the game exists now, there are four entire tiers of materials that are completely useless to anyone CP150 or higher. As in, they'll never use, or see, those materials except when leveling a character's crafting, and potentially not even then.

It's a completely different discussion from the craft bag, but you're not wrong, crafting could do with some serious streamlining.

AlnilamE wrote: »

(And consider that for the gatherers out there, if everyone has the craft bag, no one will ever leave just worms behind at a node.)

If you'd said, make bait always go in the craft bag, ESO+ or no, I'd probably agree with you. The abandoned nodes are just obnoxious. Not a major issue, but obnoxious all the same. Same with partial chests. Honestly, I'd be fine if nodes and chests would force dump their inventory into someone, so if they did overfill, they'd need to stop and sort before they continued looting. But, that's a different issue entirely.

Emma_Overload · May 2018

JD2013 wrote: »

The crafting bag is an incentive for subscribing. To give away that incentive would massively shoot ZOS in the foot.

And it seems to be a pretty effective incentive too, so ... Why would they ever make it available to non subscribers?

Why do they make DLC like Thieves Guild and Imperial City available to "non-subscribers" aka DLC owners? Why not just make them sub only? Why not gate the whole game behind a sub?

This argument is ridiculous, and I'm sick of ESO players being blamed for ZOS' mistakes. When ESO launched in 2014, a $15/month subscription was the ONLY way players could access the game, and everybody who played the game - by definition - agreed to that. In fact, I remember that players on these very forums BEGGED ZOS not to ever go B2P or F2P. They BEGGED for the game to stay subscription only!

Guess what happened later? ZOS renamed the game to "Tamriel Unlimited" and DECIDED all on their own to make the base game available as B2P with additional content available as paid DLC. ZOS presented the two options, subscription and DLC, as EQUALLY viable methods of accessing the game. When Tamriel Unlimited was launched, NOBODY warned DLC purchasers that their payment option would LIMIT them in the future from enjoying all the content that the game had to offer. Similarly, nobody warned subscribers that their payment option would not cover all future content, such as these expansion DLC like the forthcoming Summerset that have been disingenuously labeled "chapters". Summerset is just another DLC in all but name!

Please don't make excuses for ZOS' dumb and frankly repulsive strategy of forcing DLC owners to rent something they already own just to get "perks" like the crafting bag. Don't be surprised to see this issue raised again and again over the years of ESO's existence, because the backlash is definitely warranted and won't go away until ZOS addresses these issues to everyone's satisfaction. This isn't rocket science. All ZOS has to do is make all ESO+ items available in the Crown Store and all DLC content available to ESO+ subs. ZOS will still make plenty of money, they just won't be able to charge people twice for the same content, which is crooked as ****, if you ask me. Then you won't have to read any more of these threads, and we can all stop arguing.

Dysturbed · May 2018

I would drop my sub if they made the craft bag avaiable with out it.

Emma_Overload · May 2018

Dysturbed wrote: »

I would drop my sub if they made the craft bag avaiable with out it.

If the crafting bag was available separately, it wouldn't be free...

If it was $50 in the Crown Store, would you drop your sub and buy it?

What if it was $100? What about $200... that sub might look better than ever, right?

My point is that ZOS can charge whatever they want for DLC items. If they're worried about losing subs, they can simply adjust the price of those items to some reasonable equilibrium point.

Taysa · May 2018

I'd drop my sub if they added the craft bag for non subscribers.

DanteYoda · May 2018

klowdy1 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Why they can't just make a 500 stack one for free and unlimited for ESO+ is beyond me..

Honestly before ESO+ i totally ignore mats completely treated crafting and mats like they didn't exist because my bags couldn't fit them..

That insanely poor game mechanics.. when customers must ignore huge parts of the game.

That's not a bad idea, maybe not 500 slots, but that's a good idea. Give a crafting bag that can be upgraded like bank space, or inventory, but keep it limited, and have an unlimited bag for ESO+. I would imagine putting a limit on the crafting bag might get more people into crafting, then urge them to sub for the unlimited space.

Exactly its how it works in other mmo's.

Seriously..

Makes me laugh all these people subbing for a craft bag.. what hyperbole.. ESO+ is far far more than some stupid craft bag. If they took the bag away i'd still sub because i need so much more, costume dyes, DLC, double bank space, double housing.. Crowns! c'mon stop bsing about only needing a craft bag..

Yes its nice but its not the only reason one subs.

Slick_007 · May 2018

Dire wrote: »

Because if we do not have to pay 15 dollars a month, we will be able to spend that money elsewhere on things like crowns.

lol. what a load of garbage.

White wabbit · May 2018

Taysa wrote: »

I'd drop my sub if they added the craft bag for non subscribers.

+1

Taysa · May 2018

Dire wrote: »

dannymcgr81b14_ESO wrote: »

Dire wrote: »

Granting players access to the Craft Bag for free should also be a great incentive for players to spend crowns as well (wink).
Dire

How do you figure this? If they are not willing to spend 15 bucks for eso plus which comes with the craft bag, double bank space, all kinds of bonuses and 1500 crowns, why do you think they would spend 15 bucks for just 1500 crowns?

Because if we do not have to pay 15 dollars a month, we will be able to spend that money elsewhere on things like crowns. Thanks for the response! I do love the fact we also get 1500 crowns for the Sub though, very friendly incentive.

Nah, I don't think so. My 15 bucks would likely go to Blizzard or Square Enix. At least their servers aren't complete and utter garbage.

Yamenstein · May 2018

Pfft. Just sub. Subscription is already worth it. If you don't play the game enough (time wise), or seriously enough, to spend money on it for a subscription then you won't need the extra bag space.

Just do some inventory maintenance and you'll be fine. I had so many mules for my inventory for years before they introduced these perks.

bellatrixed · May 2018

It costs fifty cents a day to subscribe.

Two quarters.

So, you know, you could just do that.

cal50 · May 2018

Dont expect this. Also its okay because did you ever seen a MMORPG with limitless inventory? Craft bag providing this and cant be free

Menelaos · May 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

It's still necromancy, just, you know, different (much less successful) necromancy.

Actually, it's more like oneiromancy.