VaranisArano wrote: »

Before One Tamriel, there were varying difficulties.

1. I can't kill this thing at all because its 5 levels over me and the artificial miss chance penalty won't let me hit it. MISS MISS MISS MISS.

2. I'm right at level to fight this thing and I can kill it. Its great.

3. I can"t kill this thing at level. I can get a friend to help or I can level up once or twice and it will be easy to kill!

4. I'm overleveled to kill this thing and it might as well be made of tissue paper.


Pre-One Tamriel was not the challenge you remember. It was pretty good, challenge wise if you stayed exactly at your level at all times. But stray above your level and you couldn't even fight back. Go back to old areas and you could kill armies with just light attacks.

I will gladly trade the grind railroad of fighting everything at my level and nothing else that the game was pre One,Tamriel for the current ability to go anywhere and do anything without out-leveling content. I like being able to go back to my starter zones and not kill everything with a single light attack.

Well said....

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Two types of player;

1. Those who game for excitement, challenge.

2. Those who game to relax and socialise.

A successful game will create content for both types preferably so that a player can pick and choose as they progress. Never forget that there are varying levels of ability as well.

Because it needs to be said again.
I don't play for challenge, I play to relax and pick flowers and hear a story.
I'm physically disabled. Sprinting on my horse is very painful, let alone sustained combat. The nerfs of overland questing were a godsend and I appreciate every. single. one.
edit: and yes, I *can* go play a solo game on noob mode (and I do) but I love TESO's world and storylines and social aspect

jcm2606 wrote: »

Remember that it isn't a case of IF you will get to end game, but WHEN.

Actually, IF you make it to the end game is the right question, especially when talking about MMO's. Thing is the vast majority of MMO players never do anything with endgame content, unless forced to do so.

Take WoW for example - it's endgame is raiding, and it's well known as a raiding MMO. Yet Bishok & other WoW dev's admitted back in 2012 that only around 7-8% of WoW's active player base had ever even set foot into a raid. An MMO which was well known for it's raiding endgame... had less than 10% of it's players even trying the endgame... over 90% of the players either never made it to the endgame, or made it and stopped playing as they had no interest in it.

This was made when they were talking about the reason's for moving the hardest raid they'd ever made to being the botton-rung raid in WotLK - because only around 1% of the population had ever seen it, and they were sad that all their hard work on raids was going unplayed by the vast majority of players. It was also the reason they were looking at ways of making it easier for people to start & enjoy raiding - this lead to LFR being implemented into the game.

Moving on to Legion, the latest expansion, it's obvious there is still a majority of players not raiding. Why do I say that? Why else would they tie completion of Legions main story to having to do LFR raids? Yep, if you want to complete the expansions story... you HAVE to raid. So they are forcing endgame content into the main story... because the vast majority of players are not interested in it.

So no, it's not a case of 'when' you get to endgame and start doing endgame for the majority of players... it's a case of 'if' you get to it and/or actually participate in it. And yes, this applies to story-driven/based MMO's as well - such as ESO, SWTOR, & FFXIV - since once they have done the stories, ppl playing for the story/rp/lore/etc will stop playiong and/or play just for rp/friends/etc and not do harder content they don't like.

A better solution would be to have multiple instances of a zone with varying difficulty levels, and either allocating players into certain zone sets depending on their character level, or allowing players to choose their difficulty level. The problem with the scaling idea is that while it would in theory allow lower level players to stand a chance against mobs, it may give them too much leeway in regards to their build. Especially in PVP. This way would be better IMO, but given how unstable the servers are and have been for the past 2 years I've been playing the game, it may not be realistic in today's ESO.

I 100% agree with you here. This would be the absolutely best solution, assuming ZOS invested in better/more server's and fixed the netcode. Having different difficulty instances would let the vast majority of players continue playing in the difficulty they like... while giving those who want challenging overland content what they want as well.

There is only 2 drawbacks/problems with this solution:

1. The well known problem with ESO's server's & netcode.
2. Doing so would split the player base up

The 1st problem is maybe the biggest one, as it would mean ZOS would actually have to spend money upgrading their server's, getting dev's to work on the backend & netcode to cater for more instances being used, etc. The 2nd issue might or might not be a problem... it depends on how many players end up using the harder difficulty instance(s) and whether they don't mind having less zone chatter going on or not... unless a way of doing cross-instance zone chatter was done at the same time (I'm no programmer so no idea if this is even possible).

Hey all,

OP here. First of all, thank you all for your thoughtful and polite replies. I'm impressed at both the quantity and quality of replies this post got. Whether you agreed with me or not you were all polite and expressed opinions and made arguments about why you hold those opinions. Coming from the MOBA community that feels like a significant accomplishment. Now I'd like to address a few of the points you guys made, in broad strokes.

1) A reversion to pre-One Tamriel returns to the imperfect system that was leveled zones, in which there was a narrow range of levels where content was leveled such as to be a challenge but not so as to be frustratingly difficult or face-rolling easy.
Reply: I didn't think too deeply about the way zoning worked pre-One Tamriel and I agree, that system was broken in it's own right, returning to it would not be a solution. TLDR; You're right.

2) The game needs to be accessible and appealing to new and inexperienced players. Challenges can already be found in dungeons, trials, raids, etc. and overland content should be such that more casual players aren't discouraged.
Reply: I agree in part. I appreciate and value the need to make sure players of all skill/experience level (as well as those who play for story/social) enjoy the game and I wouldn't ask that the whole game be leveled up, I'm suggesting that perhaps there is a way to better cater to the needs of people who want a little bit more of a challenge in the early-mid game to find that.

3) You can find more challenge by using worse or no gear, or creative builds that aren't as focused on sheer efficiency.
Reply: I can't argue that this is untrue but I don't find it appeasing. Part of the joy of RPGs for me as many of you I'm sure is the feeling of finding new gear to help overcome a pesky boss or level. It takes some of the enjoyment out of the game for me if I have to use my gear as a way to hinder myself not help. The argument about non meta builds is more appealing to me, and as I level a new sorcerer I'll keep that in mind.

Ending thoughts, I realize not all of the overland content is easy and some of it can actually be quite hard. I simply wish that the challenges were more frequent and more variable than random zone bosses that one shot you. I think perhaps more realistic than having multiple server shards for differing difficulties there could be a difficulty rating associated with quests. There are so many quests and zones in the game at this point that you could easily have a decent portion of quests that players can take to reach endgame content while feeling more challenged, yet still leaving paths that other players not looking for that challenge can enjoy. On that vein, if anyone has suggestions about quests/questlines or just ways to get from lvl1-50 while being provided more of a challenge I'd love some input.

Thanks,
Corwin

Also, obligatory “Fetch quests suck, I thought devs would know better by now,”

Sorry if I sounded rude in my previous response, but I do not think any kind of rollback of One Tamriel would be a remotely good idea, and I feel very strongly about it.

Almost everyone I've asked in game, if not everyone has told me they think One Tamriel has made the game far better, and as someone who did play a little bit before OT, I agree.

Is it maybe too easy overland once you get your character to a certain level of power? yes. but that's just one disadvantage we'll have to deal with.

josiahva wrote: »

Lunerdog wrote: »

You know, topics like these make me laugh, for one reason only and that's that the mechanics to make game play harder for yourself already exist.

Respec your champ points and don't reallocate them.

Only wear picked up armour or don't wear armour at all, just don a costume.

Hell, don't even invest skill points and pretend abilities don't exist, just swing a sword or punch things if that's what floats your boat.


But I bet exactly zero people do any of the above

Or...give us a veteran option for overland content...simple and optional. No one wants to nerf their toons for more challenge, they want more challenging content to start with.

And again...how can they do this without affecting everyone? How do you make more challenging content for only the ones that want it, other than an optional debuff that essentially does the same thing as the above?

I'm all for listening to suggestions; but as far as I am seeing there is:

1. Optional debuff that decreases player health/stats/damage output (same as not using CP/gear, but gives illusion of being geared out, maybe comes with better rewards)
2. Create new, vet servers (would require enough players to be worth the split to playerbase, would require complete overhaul of mechanics so mobs aren't just bullet sponges and actually have more challenging ai/mechanics)

If there's more options to give players the option for more challenge, I'm all ears.

All this back and forth is pointless, post a vid of you steamrolling thru with all the self nerfs folks have suggested and play exactly as you normally would. Meaning pull 5 or 6 high level mobs and show us there is no difference. Better yet do it on a new toon with no passives and a handful of abilities unlocked. While you're at it stop and take a look around and you'll notice tons of players dying to 3 man mobs who you brush off with an aoe.

Hell just yesterday I was doing the goldcoast daily and saw a player damn near die had I not hit them with a bol fighting that delve boss that splits and has a ton of mobs around. I can kill her in about 5 seconds. I sat there and was reminded of how I was once in that exact same position.

You people just don't remember or care about how many players aren't as uber as you, simply as that. You shouldn't need a carrot to motivate you if what you seek is a challenge, it just smells like you want a special title or gift instead.

Asking the devs to spend time and resources to do what can be accomplished on your own is selfish and only self serving as the vast majority of Eso players are struggling as is, but they matter not to you lot, obviously.

Always the same replies, "But but I worked hard for my uber gear and cp's that make me uber powerful!" It's really very simple, either you are looking to challenge yourself or you are simply looking to earn extra rewards for being so awesome, plain and simple.

Is the overworld a complete faceroll for experienced max players? Yes, I don't think anyone is disputing that, but we are not the majority in any way, you'll see that if you take 5 minutes to look around sometime.

Looking forward to seeing those vids.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before One Tamriel, there were varying difficulties.

1. I can't kill this thing at all because its 5 levels over me and the artificial miss chance penalty won't let me hit it. MISS MISS MISS MISS.

2. I'm right at level to fight this thing and I can kill it. Its great.

3. I can"t kill this thing at level. I can get a friend to help or I can level up once or twice and it will be easy to kill!

4. I'm overleveled to kill this thing and it might as well be made of tissue paper.


Pre-One Tamriel was not the challenge you remember. It was pretty good, challenge wise if you stayed exactly at your level at all times. But stray above your level and you couldn't even fight back. Go back to old areas and you could kill armies with just light attacks.

I will gladly trade the grind railroad of fighting everything at my level and nothing else that the game was pre One,Tamriel for the current ability to go anywhere and do anything without out-leveling content. I like being able to go back to my starter zones and not kill everything with a single light attack.

Yeah, I just laugh when people get nostalgic for the good old days pre-1T. I remember going back for a dolmen I'd missed in the first zone and clearing it with WOE instakills - for probably double-digit xp and no loot, talk about a boring waste of time - and all the content behind you was like that. I get that there are people who want an option for tougher fights in the ultra-casual parts of the game, but a return to how things were isn't what they're thinking it would be.

ESO Noob/Newb here.

1. I am a refugee from DDO. Played there 10 years through tons of changes. Bought dlc, subbed, unsubbed. Bought a metric XXX tonne of QOL stuff from the ingame store. Rage quit. Came back. MMO Etc.

2. Everything I read on this forum could be swapped to any other MMO forum( or at least the DDO forum). Same story different game. It is hilarious!! Complaints about white knight/forum paladins, PTW mechanics, grouping nightmares, nerfing this and dont nerf that, lack of dev communication, and this particular gem...power gamers who have been there from the start wanting more challenge, completely clueless to hard the game is to newbs.

3. So after 10 years of DDO, I quit for good. No challenge left. I could run naked, underleveled toons through challenging quests. I could solo raids. I had THE GEAR. I was a power gamer in a long term guild with excellent players. But instead of the constant forum whining. I just left to try something new.

4. Hello ESO! I jumped right in. 2 Days later I subbed. Been playing 3 weeks or so now. I dont know the lingo and i die enough that I am amused. For me, it is another journey. Eventually, I am sure I will get some gear. I will group and get into dungeons but for now I am having fun learning what seems to me a pretty decent game.

5. Take a page from my book. If you are bored/tired/angry, migrate to something new and different and relish being a newb all over again. It is a lot of fun.

Obviously, ymmv.

Jaqrah

Name a AAA MMO that has super challenging quests.

Questing is a faceroll in virtually every MMO as long as you are even vaguely decent at your class and keep up with your gear.

Endgame and group content are where the difficulty comes in.

Also... yeah, this game is super hard if you aren't sure what you're doing. When I started I remember being stuck on a few quests and being super frustrated because the areas were instanced so my friends couldn't help me. Frustrating your new players is a bad idea, so erring on the side of easy is the smarter financial decision.

I love how everyone acts like world bosses are a snooze fest in threads like this too. Sure. Go solo a WB in Wrothgar without any CP or gear and get back to me.

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Laughing my ass off at the "Game is too easy" crowd. If you don't like the game, don't ask for it to be ruined for everyone else, go play dark souls.

dark souls is easy though.

Easy isn't a term you can use to describe a finite quality. Dark Souls is only "easy" if you already know every enemies attack pattern.

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Radinyn wrote: »

No

I second this motion. Also im sure the friend who said it was super easy, had a little help...from a friend.

Really? What cp are you? I can literally do any quest in this game with no gear at all. No armor, no weapons, just class abilities. Just running naked through the quests with no worries of dying. I can solo Norm dungeons. Vet content and PVP is the only challenge in ESO once you get max cp. The only value of non end game content in ESO is purely in the stories. I quit doing the regular quests because it became like watching movies rather than playing a game. Bring back a challenge I say. It wouldn't be hard to make regular content harder based on your level.

Yikes! Well, I guess I really, really suck then. I mean I knew I wasn't anything like über but after reading this...

Oh well, I get there in the end. I guess that's what matters.

Tomg999 wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Two types of player;

1. Those who game for excitement, challenge.

2. Those who game to relax and socialise.

A successful game will create content for both types preferably so that a player can pick and choose as they progress. Never forget that there are varying levels of ability as well.

That was what was cool before One Tamriel - you could choose your level of difficulty.
Long gone now...

No, you couldn't.

You either stayed in the level of difficulty you were assigned or you didn't. If you went above it, sure you had more of a challenge but if you outleveled content, you were SOL because you got pretty much nothing if you went back and completed it.

It's the same as trying to say you can choose your difficulty now. It's true to the same extent as your statement. There are steps players can take to make the game more difficult for themselves if they choose to do so.