ak_pvp wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Sun7dance wrote: »

Fun fact:

I know a lot of players who complained about staminas, especially stamblades.
So, they started to play a stamblade too. After a few days they were complaining again:

"Oh my god, I'm dying so often! It's completly terrible!"

All these players went back to magicka, especially to sorcs.

Yes, maybe stamblades have a huge burst potential, but you always need a perfect movement!

On the contrary, @Malamar1229 just rolled a stamblade and started destroying people with it. He doesn’t even have all of his skills morphed and he’s murdering multiple people left and right out of stealth. He has videos of this garbage.

Every forum stamblade tries to come up with completely ridiculous reasons here why the class isn’t super powered (usually pointing to Sorc, or pointing out how BAD they are against 12 people or so, as if every other class wasn’t...)

We’ll see how bad it is next patch with all of the Magicka buffs and the new sload set, and skill line. But on live the imbalance is pretty miserable.

That is stamblade being silly strong and easy, not stamina in total. A StamDK, Stamplar and Stamsorc would have similar (or less) performance to a Magsorc, MagDK, Magplar.

Only one stam majorly excels above the other spec, stamden. NB is strong in general, with stamblade having the slight edge.

Its not a stam problem, but a stamblade (or den) problem.

Any stamina build will basically have a easier time than any Magicka build if we are talking about solo pvp. I won't say stamina is op though because there are other ways to play the game that Magicka is very competitive in. It's just very difficult to solo on a Magicka character because of their small Stam pools and the ridiculous amounts of snares in game. Magicka has no way to deal with this besides mist form which is a pretty bad skill. Magicka also has to give up a ton of damage to make up for their small stamina pool and low mobility by wearing double utility sets

I think there are certain combos that are just too good for stamina, Dawnbreaker + shalks, being an example.

Seeing as I play every class, I think some toolkits have a lack of synergy compared to others.

StamDen. Nightblades, and bleed builds are extremely strong.

There is no magicka counter-build to bleed. Why is there no effect that ignores all spell resistances?

You think bleed builds are bad now? Wait until Sload comes out. Irresistible Oblivion damage AND unmitigated bleed damage. And now try to heal through that with Major Defile on...

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stamina is overperforming in smallscale and 1vX in PvP, anyone deying it is stupid or want to stay op.

There is few reasons why it's OP when you look at the average magicka toolkit.

Mobility is better on stamina classes than on magicka ones, heavy armor lingering + speed potion guy can chase a streaking sorc by using sprint. They also have acces to 2 gap closer from weapons skill lines. They also have snare removal and immunity.

Tankiness there is nothing more tanky than a good stamina build. The combinasion of high mitigation + high healing (vigor + rally + class cheese) + lingering potion + S&B block + dodge roll (+ Major evasion).

Single target damage the damage output by stamina is just overperforming : they have acces to a good frontloaded and untelegraphed burst with downbreakerof overpoweredsmitting while also having the best spammable in the game aka Heroic slash which combine with light attack + bash make more damage than wrecking blow. They also have a super execute (steel tornado and rever slice).

Utility they hare overpeforming when you look at magicka classes because they have extremely selfish utility. MAJOR DEFILE is the only way to kill a S&B healing machine, guess hwo have it ? Stamina (execpt magblade). They have minor main, minor heroism and can also have major breach and major fracture.

For all theze reasons, they are overperforming.

Oh my this is wrong on so many levels:
You tell us players have access to snare removal, rally, major evasion, blocking, and heavy armor at the same time?
Either you are running medium with rally and have shuffle as snare removal with major evasion.
Or you run heavy with Forward Momentum and no major evasion.

Everyone can run speed+ lingering health potions.

By frontloaded burst you are talking about stamnb and nothing else.
All other classes don't have frontloaded burst sure they can use DBoS but that doesn't kill anyone unless they're bad.
Stamwarden has 3 sec cooldown before shalks go off
Stamplar needs 6 seconds of constant pressure to get full burst with PotL while jabs is also a channel
Stamdk and burst? Lul
Stamsorc doesn't feature any special burst mechanics and Heroic + bash + LA does as much damage as LA+ magicka spammable or even less. (Actual in game testing and not biased forum crying that this post is filled with)

There is one stamina spec that can force to stay alive in 1v1 and that is stamwarden, all others are easily killable with OW specs (lul at stamina in duels with Summerset you won't see one of them in duels when people are tryharding)
Ofc i can run around a tree a million times but i won't gain anything from that, not gonna be able to kill someone with that.
On my light armor magdk, magplar, magnb and magsorc i can easily survive any OW 1v1 by spamming my normal class heals or defence methods while things like my stamnb, stamplar or stamdk can be worn down with defiles etc. a stamina spec only has this much healing as soon as you can apply more pressure his time is limited and he'll die.

Survivability for both specs is the same with an advantage for magicka with actual in combat survivability and stamina with a better survivability against numbers which doesn't matter as much as people say it does. If i can kill them with the stamspec with LOS they are bad enough to be killed in open combat with a magicka spec and if they kill me the magicka spec would've died aswell.


Utility you want to tell us stamina has better utility than magicka? I guess that's the reason there is 1 stamspec in organized groups and that's a rapids spammer.
Let's see what the different classes provide as utility:
All: Vigor (1k hps)
DK: no utility for stamdk that magdk couldn't provide better
Templar: Same
Sorc: Same
NB: Same again
Warden: Tied but stamwarden wins because it's better overall

About major defile if one player slots Duroks he's more effective at keeping it up than any group of stamina player are vs a equally sized group.
Also stamina is punished more by defiles as they don't have access to shields.


Balance between magicka and stamina is better than it ever was. There are 2 stamina specs which are overperfoming with stamnb and stamwarden while 2 stamspecs are underperforming, stamdk and stamplar.
This will change with Summerset, stamina got a huge hit while magicka got buffed.
Some of you are stuck in Elder Robes online when stamina didn't exist.

I can Pick the things about pvp and make it look as if stamina was totally useless:
Duels: Nothing touches an pet sorc
Small scale: Full magicka group will always win vs a full stamina group
Lange scale: There is space for 1 stamina spec in organized groups and he's forced to spam rapids.

See stamina needs to be buffed because it's bad.
But that's not how it works because player skill decides who wins fights and who's better. If we get all tools removed that decide battles without skill needed and people started to play all classes you'd realise how good balance actually is.


TL:DR: This post is filled with people who lack experience. The current Magicka and Stamina balance in Dragon Bones is the best we've ever had.

casparian wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stamina is overperforming in smallscale and 1vX in PvP, anyone deying it is stupid or want to stay op.

There is few reasons why it's OP when you look at the average magicka toolkit.

Mobility is better on stamina classes than on magicka ones, heavy armor lingering + speed potion guy can chase a streaking sorc by using sprint. They also have acces to 2 gap closer from weapons skill lines. They also have snare removal and immunity.

Tankiness there is nothing more tanky than a good stamina build. The combinasion of high mitigation + high healing (vigor + rally + class cheese) + lingering potion + S&B block + dodge roll (+ Major evasion).

Single target damage the damage output by stamina is just overperforming : they have acces to a good frontloaded and untelegraphed burst with downbreakerof overpoweredsmitting while also having the best spammable in the game aka Heroic slash which combine with light attack + bash make more damage than wrecking blow. They also have a super execute (steel tornado and rever slice).

Utility they hare overpeforming when you look at magicka classes because they have extremely selfish utility. MAJOR DEFILE is the only way to kill a S&B healing machine, guess hwo have it ? Stamina (execpt magblade). They have minor main, minor heroism and can also have major breach and major fracture.

For all theze reasons, they are overperforming.

Generalizing all stamina classes as snb. Clearly has no actual argument to back up his claims. Move along.

They're right that S&B is overperforming and that DBOS is better than anything magicka ult, though. I say this as someone who mains stamplar in PVP. S&B needs to be nerfed (there is no reason Heroic Slash and Puncture should deal so much damage, and no reason that I should be able to have 4k+ weapon damage on S&B bar), and magicka classes other than DK need ults that compete with DBOS.

Nobody is stopping magicka characters from using DB, stamina did it the entire 3 years it dealt magic damage lmao.

Exactly -- it's the best option there is, even though it does crap damage on a mag build. There should be more ultimate diversity.

Meteor needs to be reworked

templesus wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stamina is overperforming in smallscale and 1vX in PvP, anyone deying it is stupid or want to stay op.

There is few reasons why it's OP when you look at the average magicka toolkit.

Mobility is better on stamina classes than on magicka ones, heavy armor lingering + speed potion guy can chase a streaking sorc by using sprint. They also have acces to 2 gap closer from weapons skill lines. They also have snare removal and immunity.

Tankiness there is nothing more tanky than a good stamina build. The combinasion of high mitigation + high healing (vigor + rally + class cheese) + lingering potion + S&B block + dodge roll (+ Major evasion).

Single target damage the damage output by stamina is just overperforming : they have acces to a good frontloaded and untelegraphed burst with downbreakerof overpoweredsmitting while also having the best spammable in the game aka Heroic slash which combine with light attack + bash make more damage than wrecking blow. They also have a super execute (steel tornado and rever slice).

Utility they hare overpeforming when you look at magicka classes because they have extremely selfish utility. MAJOR DEFILE is the only way to kill a S&B healing machine, guess hwo have it ? Stamina (execpt magblade). They have minor main, minor heroism and can also have major breach and major fracture.

For all theze reasons, they are overperforming.

Generalizing all stamina classes as snb. Clearly has no actual argument to back up his claims. Move along.

They're right that S&B is overperforming and that DBOS is better than anything magicka ult, though. I say this as someone who mains stamplar in PVP. S&B needs to be nerfed (there is no reason Heroic Slash and Puncture should deal so much damage, and no reason that I should be able to have 4k+ weapon damage on S&B bar), and magicka classes other than DK need ults that compete with DBOS.

Nobody is stopping magicka characters from using DB, stamina did it the entire 3 years it dealt magic damage lmao.

Exactly -- it's the best option there is, even though it does crap damage on a mag build. There should be more ultimate diversity.

Doesn’t do crap damage for me. I’ve hit 10k DBs on my mag sorc. Sure, another magic damage ult would be nice, but I find that shooting star in open world performs extremely well when used effectively and don’t even get me started on destro ult. The only classes I would say need ults adjusted are magplar (make empowering do more damage) and magden (adjust it to be less like a worse destro ult).

Radial sweep should cause Major Defile IMO, and get rid of the DoT. That would make it the go to ultimate in PvP for DPS Templars.

BohnT wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stamina is overperforming in smallscale and 1vX in PvP, anyone deying it is stupid or want to stay op.

There is few reasons why it's OP when you look at the average magicka toolkit.

Mobility is better on stamina classes than on magicka ones, heavy armor lingering + speed potion guy can chase a streaking sorc by using sprint. They also have acces to 2 gap closer from weapons skill lines. They also have snare removal and immunity.

Tankiness there is nothing more tanky than a good stamina build. The combinasion of high mitigation + high healing (vigor + rally + class cheese) + lingering potion + S&B block + dodge roll (+ Major evasion).

Single target damage the damage output by stamina is just overperforming : they have acces to a good frontloaded and untelegraphed burst with downbreakerof overpoweredsmitting while also having the best spammable in the game aka Heroic slash which combine with light attack + bash make more damage than wrecking blow. They also have a super execute (steel tornado and rever slice).

Utility they hare overpeforming when you look at magicka classes because they have extremely selfish utility. MAJOR DEFILE is the only way to kill a S&B healing machine, guess hwo have it ? Stamina (execpt magblade). They have minor main, minor heroism and can also have major breach and major fracture.

For all theze reasons, they are overperforming.

Oh my this is wrong on so many levels:
You tell us players have access to snare removal, rally, major evasion, blocking, and heavy armor at the same time?
Either you are running medium with rally and have shuffle as snare removal with major evasion.
Or you run heavy with Forward Momentum and no major evasion.

Everyone can run speed+ lingering health potions.

By frontloaded burst you are talking about stamnb and nothing else.
All other classes don't have frontloaded burst sure they can use DBoS but that doesn't kill anyone unless they're bad.
Stamwarden has 3 sec cooldown before shalks go off
Stamplar needs 6 seconds of constant pressure to get full burst with PotL while jabs is also a channel
Stamdk and burst? Lul
Stamsorc doesn't feature any special burst mechanics and Heroic + bash + LA does as much damage as LA+ magicka spammable or even less. (Actual in game testing and not biased forum crying that this post is filled with)

There is one stamina spec that can force to stay alive in 1v1 and that is stamwarden, all others are easily killable with OW specs (lul at stamina in duels with Summerset you won't see one of them in duels when people are tryharding)
Ofc i can run around a tree a million times but i won't gain anything from that, not gonna be able to kill someone with that.
On my light armor magdk, magplar, magnb and magsorc i can easily survive any OW 1v1 by spamming my normal class heals or defence methods while things like my stamnb, stamplar or stamdk can be worn down with defiles etc. a stamina spec only has this much healing as soon as you can apply more pressure his time is limited and he'll die.

Survivability for both specs is the same with an advantage for magicka with actual in combat survivability and stamina with a better survivability against numbers which doesn't matter as much as people say it does. If i can kill them with the stamspec with LOS they are bad enough to be killed in open combat with a magicka spec and if they kill me the magicka spec would've died aswell.


Utility you want to tell us stamina has better utility than magicka? I guess that's the reason there is 1 stamspec in organized groups and that's a rapids spammer.
Let's see what the different classes provide as utility:
All: Vigor (1k hps)
DK: no utility for stamdk that magdk couldn't provide better
Templar: Same
Sorc: Same
NB: Same again
Warden: Tied but stamwarden wins because it's better overall

About major defile if one player slots Duroks he's more effective at keeping it up than any group of stamina player are vs a equally sized group.
Also stamina is punished more by defiles as they don't have access to shields.


Balance between magicka and stamina is better than it ever was. There are 2 stamina specs which are overperfoming with stamnb and stamwarden while 2 stamspecs are underperforming, stamdk and stamplar.
This will change with Summerset, stamina got a huge hit while magicka got buffed.
Some of you are stuck in Elder Robes online when stamina didn't exist.

I can Pick the things about pvp and make it look as if stamina was totally useless:
Duels: Nothing touches an pet sorc
Small scale: Full magicka group will always win vs a full stamina group
Lange scale: There is space for 1 stamina spec in organized groups and he's forced to spam rapids.

See stamina needs to be buffed because it's bad.
But that's not how it works because player skill decides who wins fights and who's better. If we get all tools removed that decide battles without skill needed and people started to play all classes you'd realise how good balance actually is.


TL:DR: This post is filled with people who lack experience. The current Magicka and Stamina balance in Dragon Bones is the best we've ever had.

You really need to learn to read.

1. I put major evasion between parentheses because you can either run heavy armor + FM or Fortified brass/Impregnable + major evasion. Also, heavybleedblade can have heavy armor + major evasion, but it's not the question here.

2. Lingering + speed potion are meta for stamina because it give them better mobility and an other HoT, and it's usable mostly on stamina because they don't need sustain thx to easy heavies that return ressource, also a HoT on a high mitigation build is better than a hot on low mitigation build. Do you play stamina ?

3. Frontloaded burst is anything that's bursty with a part that's not telegraphed. Dawn breaker of smiting is a part of it because the front damage is huge and the dot (bound on the ennemy) is huge too, and it also stun. The 20% more damage incap have is in way here with DBoS because the dot is strong and bound on ennmieS. If you POTL every 6s the ennemy, he can't know when you will DB him.

4. Light attack + heroic slash + bash deal more damage than any regular light attack + skill spammable, you can't deny it or you need to l2p ur stamina damage.

4. S&B + HoT tankiness is miles away from magicka. It's extremely hard to kill a S&B healing machine without defile, magsorc, magden, magtemplar and magdk doesn't have reliable access to it. Stamina does. You say it yourself, you need defile and magicka doesn't have it. Not even speaking about passive healing and active defense.

5. Stamina have better survivability when fighting, and that's the only that matter, being 100% defensive all the time has just no sense when you look at smallscale and solo PvP. You can 1vX easier on stamina than on magicka because your defense are mostly passives defenses, when a sorc is pressured he shield and does nothing else, when a templar or dk are pressured they heal and thy are also stuck in the spam, as a stamina user you can HoT your HP and still doing damage or mitigate extremely well damage by blocking.

6. It's false, stamina is better for duel and for smallscale than magicka, magicka is only clearly better for large zerg fest.

7. Shield is trash and don't compete at all with HoT + high mitigation + block. Hardened ward is removed in 2s by S&B light attack/heroic slash/bash, guess what's happen when outnumbered ? U can spam until OOM or try to run away, but you can't fighting decent players.

8.I said stamina has a selfish utility, that's why they are better in solo/smallscale. l2r.

9. I never said the balance wasn't the best we got. It's a good start, but something need to be done, especially with defile access. Every one should be able to defile in a game where it's mandatory to kill non potaoes players heal based build (80%-90% of the builds).

Minalan wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@NyassaV you’re just coming off as someone who gets stomped by stamina builds all the time and would rather have them nerfed than get better. But don’t worry they are getting indirectly nerfed next patch thanks to the myriad of new skills and buffs coming to magicka users. But something tells me that won’t make much of a difference for you.

Even if Magicka was getting big buffs in the next patch which I don't think they are. Stamina would still be better because of their mobility. Generally speaking Magicka pretty much needs to use multiple utility sets to function as well as having sustained damage instead of burst damage. So what you end up having is Magicka users having to try to find a way to be tanky in light armor because there aren't really any good Magicka heavy armor sets, as well as being slow with low burst damage. Magicka shines with the group utility they provide but if you don't have a group or you play a smaller group you are better off playing stamina

True, but here’s where we have to be careful with these kinds of blanket posts regarding one entire playstyle as in “stamina is op,” because magicka builds do have far better access to skills and imo a good mag sorc or magblade can be just as bursty as a stam build but it takes more skill to do so and has less viability against multiple opponents at once where as stam just drops DBoS and and goes with steel tornado, reverse slice etc. But because mag already has the option of range, many many class skills with varying effects and shields it’s a tricky balance to just say oh make them tankier or here’s snare removal built into the light armor shield or whatever. I really don’t think we should say that stamina is over performing it’s just too much of a generalization, as we all know Stam DKs, sorcs and Templars are pretty well balanced or evenness unfer performing in some areas. Am I against mag builds have access to a snare removal? No, I think it’s okay to have one as long as it’s not attached to a bunch of other op stuff and we’d have to start with that and then see what else needs adjustment. I’m a stam sorc main and primarily play stam but I can jump on my ranged magblade after months of not playing and still be amazed and how I can stop people from even getting near me before they’re dead. Part of playing that is learning to stay at range and use that distance to avoid getting locked down. And I can easily see how a built in snare removal would make the class way to difficult to fight against.

Consider this. A magsorc has about the same potential to reset a fight as a stamblade. However due to the fact that stamina abilities are 20% less in cost most stamina builds will outlast the sorc

Ok yes stam abilities cost less, BUT, magicka almost always has a mag pool that is higher than a stam pool by anywhere from 4K to 10k. I’d say the average stam build has 34k stam and on a mag build it’s easy to hit 39k. On the extreme you have stam builds working with a little over 30k stam and mag builds that go as high as 44k maybe more? You’re picking very select facts and ignoring some important points. So now you’re calling for stamina nerfs based on “facts” that fit your agenda. And this is why classes and skills end up becoming trash. I have no more of an issue sustaining on my magblade or magplar than I do any of my stam classes. In fact stamplar is downright painful in the sustain department and stamina warden is the exception in that it’s too easy to sustain.

Yet... Stamina walks around with 4-5K weapon damage without trying, and by the way that increases the efficiency of your healing skills on top of that.

Not really, Id say most builds have around 3.5-7k wpn damage and then really strong sets like alchemist or fury can push it to 4.5k or maybe 5k with every single damage buff including continuous attack. Any build that is reaching 5k wpn damage "easily" is sacrificing a lot. My magblade has a simlar range of spell damage not including war maiden buff and I can still have 39k mag. That could go even higher if I slotted mage light or a different monster set combo.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Magic dominates large scale, stamina dominates small scale. This topic comes up all the time filled with bias because people choose to favor one or the other. Then theres some people who never played both and not to mention those with little experience with the classes as a whole.

But what about the Magicka that wish to do small scale? Literally the only thing that magicka favors when it comes to large scale is Destro ult, proxy det, and types of healing. TBH Stam Warden can do better in large scale than most magicka making magicka just healers

also because rolling is our defense or blocking and it uses our resource just like magic i dont see how its over performing when its just 2 different play styles. I'm trash as magic literally only good with mag sorc and I'm currently working on an argonian magplar because yeah everyone knows one lol