A means to Fix Nightmother's Gaze and Sunderflame

Larsay · May 2018

A proposal to bring Sunderflame and Nightmothers back to their former glory, while still keeping things in line with the current buff/debuff system.

Add a new debuff category called Shatter.

Major Shatter – Reduce the targets Physical and Spell Resistance by 3400
Minor Shatter – Reduce the targets Physical and Spell Resistance by 2400

Note, both values can be adjusted if ZoS feels they are too high or low.

Attach Major Shatter to Sunderflame
Attack Minor Shatter to Nightmothers Gaze

To balance this, remove the spell pen from light armor tree and replace it with spell damage like medium armor.

Pen values across Magicka and Stamina DPS becomes normalized.

This also opens the door to a Sunderflame/Nightmothers Gaze type set with Magicka DPS stats much like how Warmachine and Architect exist.

This would also remove the one dark mark on Summerset and promote group synergy.

Onyx_Icarus · May 2018

Great idea

Talrol · May 2018

That's the one thing that's kind of bothered me this patch. In all previous patches, the focus has seemed to be on creating a need for players to truly consider what skills they were using and what synergies were available which created a way for groups to truly start working as one. Now with the change to these sets you've basically taken stam and said, "your buffs don't matter" and have basically forced them to be straight solo dpsers taking away from that group synergy.

I like the changes proposed here, it would still give a viable reason for these sets to be used and we would still be asking, "who's got NMG" and "who's got Sunder"

JerryAlder · May 2018

Yeah idk this could be quite nice, but I feel like they have shown they don't want to take this road with the sets. Tbh I feel it's nice to get pen from group sets but zos doesn't feel this way or at least not in the extent that it is on live atm. If I had to propose something I'd say:

Sunder - Minor fracture+ increase flame direct attacks on the target like 30%
(I wouldn't feel bad buffing my group ranged and magdk with my stamina, could be interesting)

NMG - I just want this set back as it was basically. Add physical pen for group. Maybe if you want to make it weird make it apply to 6 group members closest somehow? Maybe when you deal crit damage you apply it to 6 players and reduce the value or something.

Anyway good idea and would definitely buy your idea aswell!

Erraln · May 2018

Talrol wrote: »

That's the one thing that's kind of bothered me this patch. In all previous patches, the focus has seemed to be on creating a need for players to truly consider what skills they were using and what synergies were available which created a way for groups to truly start working as one. Now with the change to these sets you've basically taken stam and said, "your buffs don't matter" and have basically forced them to be straight solo dpsers taking away from that group synergy.

I like the changes proposed here, it would still give a viable reason for these sets to be used and we would still be asking, "who's got NMG" and "who's got Sunder"

Compare last year's sustain nerfs with the addition of Major Slayer, to this year's penetration stacking nerfs with the addition of Siroria and Relequen. To me, the pattern seems to be 'Buy the content to get your damage back', no?

Septimus_Magna · May 2018

Great idea, it would make both sets viable again in end-game content.

Erraln wrote: »

Talrol wrote: »

That's the one thing that's kind of bothered me this patch. In all previous patches, the focus has seemed to be on creating a need for players to truly consider what skills they were using and what synergies were available which created a way for groups to truly start working as one. Now with the change to these sets you've basically taken stam and said, "your buffs don't matter" and have basically forced them to be straight solo dpsers taking away from that group synergy.

I like the changes proposed here, it would still give a viable reason for these sets to be used and we would still be asking, "who's got NMG" and "who's got Sunder"

Compare last year's sustain nerfs with the addition of Major Slayer, to this year's penetration stacking nerfs with the addition of Siroria and Relequen. To me, the pattern seems to be 'Buy the content to get your damage back', no?

This is usually the case, whats the point of new content if old gear is better?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · May 2018

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Great idea, it would make both sets viable again in end-game content.

Erraln wrote: »

Talrol wrote: »

That's the one thing that's kind of bothered me this patch. In all previous patches, the focus has seemed to be on creating a need for players to truly consider what skills they were using and what synergies were available which created a way for groups to truly start working as one. Now with the change to these sets you've basically taken stam and said, "your buffs don't matter" and have basically forced them to be straight solo dpsers taking away from that group synergy.

I like the changes proposed here, it would still give a viable reason for these sets to be used and we would still be asking, "who's got NMG" and "who's got Sunder"

Compare last year's sustain nerfs with the addition of Major Slayer, to this year's penetration stacking nerfs with the addition of Siroria and Relequen. To me, the pattern seems to be 'Buy the content to get your damage back', no?

This is usually the case, whats the point of new content if old gear is better?

It would make them mandatory, not viable, which is what zos is trying to avoid by changing them, as far as I see. Now I couldn't care less but this is the direction zos wants it seems.

Septimus_Magna · May 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Great idea, it would make both sets viable again in end-game content.

Erraln wrote: »

Talrol wrote: »

That's the one thing that's kind of bothered me this patch. In all previous patches, the focus has seemed to be on creating a need for players to truly consider what skills they were using and what synergies were available which created a way for groups to truly start working as one. Now with the change to these sets you've basically taken stam and said, "your buffs don't matter" and have basically forced them to be straight solo dpsers taking away from that group synergy.

I like the changes proposed here, it would still give a viable reason for these sets to be used and we would still be asking, "who's got NMG" and "who's got Sunder"

Compare last year's sustain nerfs with the addition of Major Slayer, to this year's penetration stacking nerfs with the addition of Siroria and Relequen. To me, the pattern seems to be 'Buy the content to get your damage back', no?

This is usually the case, whats the point of new content if old gear is better?

It would make them mandatory, not viable, which is what zos is trying to avoid by changing them, as far as I see. Now I couldn't care less but this is the direction zos wants it seems.

For stam yes, like they are mandatory currently.
For mag it wouldnt matter because its easy to reach pen cap anyway.

With the PTS changes these sets go from mandatory to useless because they give a common debuff.
Only NMG could see some use if you dont have a stamplar in the raid.

The thing that was cool about stam DDs is how they worked together to pull high numbers.
Why even run stam build if its high risk but pulls the same numbers?

UrbanMonk · May 2018

From all my testing on PTS-

Sunder+ Briarheart-->35667
Sunder+Hunding--->36488
Acuity+Reliquem-->41015

These are just some of the many parse, done with current CP setup on live and no outside buff/ debuf than applied by yourself. It is pretty evident that the Sunder on it's Own is pretty weak set now.

Damage increase for all DD(by one player using this set in group) VS Damage lost on the DD who was using this set.

So IMO, unless the flame damage component gets changed to Physical/poison/ direct damage, it's a set gone into oblivion. I hope ZOS reconsider their decision and at least reverts this to original. NMG at present is acceptable as it'll still find it's use in end game group content or for solo use.

Enslaved · May 2018

Onyx_Icarus wrote: »

Great idea

This

Nifty2g · May 2018

But they already got Fracture which does that

Juhasow · May 2018

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

From all my testing on PTS-

Sunder+ Briarheart-->35667
Sunder+Hunding--->36488
Acuity+Reliquem-->41015

These are just some of the many parse, done with current CP setup on live and no outside buff/ debuf than applied by yourself. It is pretty evident that the Sunder on it's Own is pretty weak set now.

Ummm maybe because in Your 3rd parse You used set that overthrones any other set in the game in terms of single target DPS ? People and their "testing" sigh... Use Sunder+Relequen combo and I guarantee You it'll be also around 40k since relequen is doing 7-9k on its own.

DeliCreep · May 2018

NO, stamina is still ahead, buffing stamina and nerfing magicka at the same time is just a bad idea and magicka pen buff sets do not exist. I do not think light armor and medium armor PvE passives should be exactly the same either... Also a balance patch still hasn't been released. [snip]

[Edited for baiting commentary]

Jeezye · May 2018

We already have debuffs for resistances, minor and major francture and breach. I don’t want the game full of “unique” debuffs, I already hate the new buff for SPC. I can understand the adjustment of the set sucks, but this in my opinion is the wrong approach.

Juhasow · May 2018

Larsay wrote: »

A proposal to bring Sunderflame and Nightmothers back to their former glory, while still keeping things in line with the current buff/debuff system.

Add a new debuff category called Shatter.

Major Shatter – Reduce the targets Physical and Spell Resistance by 3400
Minor Shatter – Reduce the targets Physical and Spell Resistance by 2400

Note, both values can be adjusted if ZoS feels they are too high or low.

Attach Major Shatter to Sunderflame
Attack Minor Shatter to Nightmothers Gaze

To balance this, remove the spell pen from light armor tree and replace it with spell damage like medium armor.

Pen values across Magicka and Stamina DPS becomes normalized.

This also opens the door to a Sunderflame/Nightmothers Gaze type set with Magicka DPS stats much like how Warmachine and Architect exist.

This would also remove the one dark mark on Summerset and promote group synergy.

So instead of changing the current ways of how PvE dpsing works which was obvious goal for devs You want to go even deeper into that ? It is just forcing the certain changes for the sake of leaving thigs as they are but tbh they wouldnt stay as they are.

I dont see the reason to add additional minor/major penetration debuffs if we already have things like that in the game(Fracture/Breach). For PvP that would be very dangerous since it would be possible to drop down tanks resistances down to values lower then light armor users have. Fact that there is additional debuff section would also require to create new buff section to balance things out. That would create lot of mess in PvP and PvE.

As for the change to Sunder and NMG I dont see why is that bad decision. Stamina DD's still are hitting higher single target numbers on PTS then magicka ones but not 10-15k higher.

I also think You dont realize that changes You propose could end up hurting stam DD's. If You want to give sunder/NMG also spell pen and create magicka versions of that sets plus change light armor penetration passive into spell dmg that basicly pushes magicka DD's over stamina ones. Magicka DD's would loose nothing and just gain additional penetration and additional spell dmg on the top of all the changes they're already getting in Summerset like staves count as 2 gear pieces or light attack dmg changes which benefits mag builds much more then stam. At the end we would have magicka and stamina doing similar static single target DPS with magicka having adventage in bursty AoE trash fights and more moblile fights and guess who would be more preffred for trials then ?

Be carefull what You ask for.

Kolzki · May 2018

I do like the idea of having stam sets that buff magic users and vice versa. I figure that it would increase the benefit of having both mag and stam in a group. I like the op’s suggestion of adding physical and spell penetration to do that, although the set suggestions sound like a version of alkosh that activates on crit or heavy attacks rather than synergies.

I’d rather not remove the light armour pen passive though. Stam users don’t want to all have to run two tfs. Similarly, if the light armour passive was removed mag users would not want to have to use spinners (which does exist btw) or a mag tfs if that existed. These penetration sets passively buff damage without adding any interesting play styles. There are more fun sets that i’d rather wear.

Feanor · May 2018

You basically just replaced the unique debuff both sets had with a new unique debuff in the major/minor system, thus maintaining the status quo ante again. The change would be pointless then, the sets could stay the same the first place.

As I see it ZOS wanted to promote underused sources of penetration (maces, CP tree, lover mundus) instead of having 2 people wearing 2 sets and call it a day.

Also, why homogenize the Armour lines? The difference between having penetration and damage as passives equals out if you look at a theoretical DPS, but is very important in PvP. Raw damage is better vs shield users whereas penetration is good vs Heavy Armour or mitigation stacking builds. I don’t think everything should be the same in ESO. Variety brings choices, and makes it more interesting.

Larsay · May 2018

The whole point of an MMO is group synergy and play. This includes builds designed to complement each other. The change to NMG and Sunderflame breaks this.

A change to a new Major Minor system does not keep the status quo at all but has quite a large impact to how ZoS is able to manage such buffs. Their major minor system is easier for them to balance as they can straight exclude major/minors from entire elements of the game. For example, with Sunder and NMG as they are on live it is nearly impossible to balance for pvp, but if they were a major/minor they can straight be excluded from battlegrounds or Cyrodiil.

And while endgame gets brought up, the whole point of DPS end game is to find the most efficient means of doing DPS with the least amount of points in Pen CP. This is why every group in the game required their stamina to have access to these sets for group optimization.

The removal essentially of these sets negates that… besides; they are working on removing every single unique buff from the game… In my humble opinion I think its crazy to think that Alkosh is not on the ZoS hit list too.

The only reason Stamina is still doing better single target than Magicka is because the stamina sets are designed around hitting harder than their magicka counterparts. Due to this as CP caps rise we only find ourselves back at the same spot once again… Stamina way over performing magicka because now we all have the CP to spend on even more pen… When we hit this point, with LA having the pen passive built into it, LA users will actually lose DPS because the pen value arguably becomes diminished anywhere outside maybe pvp where resistances values are stacked much higher than mobs in pve…

Sure, it might be a ways down the road, but where are you going to put those extra blue points when you reach the point you can max out elemental expert elf born etc? Blessed? LOL… I would rather the LA passive be moved to something more useful than pen, since its inevitable I will have no where to dump those blue points eventually but in Spell Erosion.

WrathOfInnos · May 2018

Great idea! More group synergy = more fun.

Juhasow · May 2018

Larsay wrote: »

The whole point of an MMO is group synergy and play. This includes builds designed to complement each other. The change to NMG and Sunderflame breaks this.

A change to a new Major Minor system does not keep the status quo at all but has quite a large impact to how ZoS is able to manage such buffs. Their major minor system is easier for them to balance as they can straight exclude major/minors from entire elements of the game. For example, with Sunder and NMG as they are on live it is nearly impossible to balance for pvp, but if they were a major/minor they can straight be excluded from battlegrounds or Cyrodiil.

And while endgame gets brought up, the whole point of DPS end game is to find the most efficient means of doing DPS with the least amount of points in Pen CP. This is why every group in the game required their stamina to have access to these sets for group optimization.

The removal essentially of these sets negates that… besides; they are working on removing every single unique buff from the game… In my humble opinion I think its crazy to think that Alkosh is not on the ZoS hit list too.

The only reason Stamina is still doing better single target than Magicka is because the stamina sets are designed around hitting harder than their magicka counterparts. Due to this as CP caps rise we only find ourselves back at the same spot once again… Stamina way over performing magicka because now we all have the CP to spend on even more pen… When we hit this point, with LA having the pen passive built into it, LA users will actually lose DPS because the pen value arguably becomes diminished anywhere outside maybe pvp where resistances values are stacked much higher than mobs in pve…

Sure, it might be a ways down the road, but where are you going to put those extra blue points when you reach the point you can max out elemental expert elf born etc? Blessed? LOL… I would rather the LA passive be moved to something more useful than pen, since its inevitable I will have no where to dump those blue points eventually but in Spell Erosion.

Almost everything You said here is wrong...

M'Hael · May 2018

The spoiler note in the 4.0.2 notes seem to indicate they want to move towards group buff sets being healer/tank sets. For PVE that seems like a play to the lowest common denominator. Anything that enhances the complexity of group synergy enhances endgame PVE play.