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Belgium's Ruling on Lootboxes [Video Attached]
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Hokiewa✭✭✭✭There's no such thing as loot boxes in supermarkets or amazon etc. If they were a real thing it would be a comparison, but it isn't so ... Not a comparison.
*facepalm*
You asked how they're anti-consumer.
They're anti-consumer because "a chance"
There's a reason there aren't "chances" in supermarkets or Amazon, etc
Because that's anti-consumer
Do you not see the correlation yet?
If lootboxes are determined to be "illegal", the solutions that gaming companies will inevitably offer will be anti-consumer and not remotely what any of you who hate loot boxes will want. That's a guarantee. Companies just don't throw their hands up and go, well ok we'll just take less money in then.......Careful what you wish for...lmao.
And frankly, your comparisons are illogical. Crown crates offer a plethora of items whose desirability is entirely subjective on the individual. Milk is a singular item and is not a valid comparison nor is something specific you want on Amazon. Seriously, try harder.2 -
Saturnana✭✭✭✭✭
Any teenager can hook up their own bank account to paypal and purchase crowns in the Steam store any time they want.To buy crates you literally have to go onto the account page and enter credit card details to buy crowns, and then you have to go back into the game to spend those crowns.
Unless you have crowns already.
If you allow a teenager access to your bank or credit card, well then that is up to you. Beware the risks that might come with it.
Assuming they play through Steam, of course.
I suppose they could choose to ignore the hearing, for a time.. But it wouldn't be smart as sooner or later, someone will file a complaint, and if they're then deemed breaking the law, they will get a (pretty hefty) fine. Should that be the case (which is up for debate at this stage since the Dutch government still isn't naming the companies they've asked to 'change their ways' until their time to do so runs out) then they can do a few things:While I do enjoy the discussion that is going on (thanks everyone), I think we're getting a bit derailed here.
Anti-consumer or not, what does this ruling mean for ESO in Europe? Does this mean that Belgian and Dutch players, specifically, will not be able to to buy Crown Crates, and thus not be able to obtain the items contained therein?
Will ZOS just ignore it? Will it then have consequences for ZOS? Speculate!
1. get a gambling permit for ESO, which would probably impact how ESO is sold as parts of the game would pretty much count as an online casino/poker game from then on, in the eyes of the law
2. close off the crown crate section of the crown store to impacting countries, which could be done by banning certain ranges of IP addresses from certain features of the game I suppose.. but it will be a costly change
3. stop selling and ban the game in those impacted countries altogether, which would just be stupid. And it'd give a dangerous precedent in case Germany has a similar ruling on loot boxes, as the EU servers are located there.
I only know of the situation in the Netherlands, not Belgium, btw.
The rules there are slightly different, so the same may not apply for them.
Then you also understand that someone suffering from an addiction (gambling being one of them) is incapable of this rationalization. For an addict, there is no sense of self-responsibility to steer them away from certain habits or substances, as the latter are not viewed as 'bad' but rather as needed, or even essential.Actually, as someone who suffers from depression and anxieties, as well as having a couple of bad habits (smoker being the worst) I understand all too well the differences between disease and personality failings. I also understand that it is my responsibility to keep myself away from that black cloud, and nobody else's, as it is my responsibility to break my bad habits. Again, nobody else's. Because I, as an individual am responsible for myself.Edited by Saturnana on May 1, 2018 4:37PM@Saturnna | PC / EU
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"Ha! I do love it when the mortals know they're being manipulated. Makes things infinitely more interesting."
- Sheogorath0 -
Argruna✭✭✭I find this interesting because from the articles I read, all the devs have to do is get a gambling license for the country in question, change the game to 18+ or something and they are in the clear.
I don't get why Overwatch is a part because unlike previous rulings against DOTA 2 and Rocket League, the contents of the loot box can't be traded for real world currency as it can in the latter. Even with the upcoming gifting, they can just block the crates from being gifted to players if they deem fit, just like they blocked instant items (bag/bank/bites) and housing.
Further, do people really want governments to get entwined into their games that deeply? The only reason this came about was EA being EA and it was more Disney pressuring a change on the game rather than consumers. Even then all EA did was change the loot boxes to not be bought with real money and they are in compliance with this. I just see this as a really bad slippery slope. Yes if they violate already set laws that are in place, legislate. However, we don't need John Bruce "Jack" Thompson and his ilk gaining a foothold again and doing their damnedest to water down games because it has 'detestable' things in it. It's like the idiots that brought their kids to Sausage Party because it was animated and ignored the large R that was on the poster, then had the audacity to kick their feet because an animated movie wasn't 'kid-friendly.'
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Thannazzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only potential outcome of this, if there is a change, is players based in belgium being unable to buy crown crates. At best the legislation prevents gamble packs from being offered to you. It doesn't enforce the contents being offered in an alternative purchase mechanism. So say goodbye to all the cool cosmetic stuff!Edited by Thannazzar on May 1, 2018 4:26PM1 -
Valkysas154✭✭✭✭✭I find this interesting because from the articles I read, all the devs have to do is get a gambling license for the country in question, change the game to 18+ or something and they are in the clear.
I don't get why Overwatch is a part because unlike previous rulings against DOTA 2 and Rocket League, the contents of the loot box can't be traded for real world currency as it can in the latter. Even with the upcoming gifting, they can just block the crates from being gifted to players if they deem fit, just like they blocked instant items (bag/bank/bites) and housing.
Further, do people really want governments to get entwined into their games that deeply? The only reason this came about was EA being EA and it was more Disney pressuring a change on the game rather than consumers. Even then all EA did was change the loot boxes to not be bought with real money and they are in compliance with this. I just see this as a really bad slippery slope. Yes if they violate already set laws that are in place, legislate. However, we don't need John Bruce "Jack" Thompson and his ilk gaining a foothold again and doing their damnedest to water down games because it has 'detestable' things in it. It's like the idiots that brought their kids to Sausage Party because it was animated and ignored the large R that was on the poster, then had the audacity to kick their feet because an animated movie wasn't 'kid-friendly.'
Last i looked Sony MS and Nintendo Don't allow AO ratings on there systems only up to a -M- and changing a game to AO could brake laws as well in some places like EU and will need to give refunds since they got some pretty strict customer protection laws there.
Edited by Valkysas154 on May 1, 2018 4:34PM0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Can't wait.
I never liked Pacrooti anyway, so seeing him go behind bars would be a god-send.
But as well all know... Khajiiti are known to find their way out of locked cages.0 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭I find this interesting because from the articles I read, all the devs have to do is get a gambling license for the country in question, change the game to 18+ or something and they are in the clear.
I don't get why Overwatch is a part because unlike previous rulings against DOTA 2 and Rocket League, the contents of the loot box can't be traded for real world currency as it can in the latter. Even with the upcoming gifting, they can just block the crates from being gifted to players if they deem fit, just like they blocked instant items (bag/bank/bites) and housing.
Further, do people really want governments to get entwined into their games that deeply? The only reason this came about was EA being EA and it was more Disney pressuring a change on the game rather than consumers. Even then all EA did was change the loot boxes to not be bought with real money and they are in compliance with this. I just see this as a really bad slippery slope. Yes if they violate already set laws that are in place, legislate. However, we don't need John Bruce "Jack" Thompson and his ilk gaining a foothold again and doing their damnedest to water down games because it has 'detestable' things in it. It's like the idiots that brought their kids to Sausage Party because it was animated and ignored the large R that was on the poster, then had the audacity to kick their feet because an animated movie wasn't 'kid-friendly.'
Actually battlefront 2 is redesigning their game to get rid of loot boxes entirely. Shadow of war is also doing the same. EA and WB are worried about the inclusion of loot boxes now and that has more to do than just Disney.
Overwatch is rated Teen that’s why it’s included.
Game companies are actually using no loot boxes as a selling point. What game companies are doing is a slippery slope and they are beginning to realize it. If you abuse a market to a point, your inviting regulation. Last year it was all about loot boxes as the craze for developers. This year it is all about being loot box free.
Edit: I can’t get any of my friends to play this game. It has the cost of a buy 2 play game including expansions. It also has the greed of a f2p game. At this point I play Warframe more than I do ESO.Edited by JimT722 on May 1, 2018 5:10PM1 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There's no such thing as loot boxes in supermarkets or amazon etc. If they were a real thing it would be a comparison, but it isn't so ... Not a comparison.
*facepalm*
You asked how they're anti-consumer.
They're anti-consumer because "a chance"
There's a reason there aren't "chances" in supermarkets or Amazon, etc
Because that's anti-consumer
Do you not see the correlation yet?
If lootboxes are determined to be "illegal", the solutions that gaming companies will inevitably offer will be anti-consumer and not remotely what any of you who hate loot boxes will want. That's a guarantee. Companies just don't throw their hands up and go, well ok we'll just take less money in then.......Careful what you wish for...lmao.
And frankly, your comparisons are illogical. Crown crates offer a plethora of items whose desirability is entirely subjective on the individual. Milk is a singular item and is not a valid comparison nor is something specific you want on Amazon. Seriously, try harder.
Everything's desirability is subjective to the individual. You've proven nothing.0 -
maroite✭✭✭The horse is dead, stop beating it.
Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!
Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.
Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.
Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?
Now, I don't buy them, I don't care for them, but I don't understand this obsession with eliminating them.
People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.
Notice the conditional clause - "A chance."
No guarantee of good shinies. And yet people still go ahead in full and good knowledge of this, and press that buy button anyhow.
The consumer knows what they are getting into. And go ahead anyhoo.
Now, it is, of course, a thing that they could just put everything in the crown store. Bam. Done. But there's no guarantee of how many people would buy said product if they did. Crown Crates must be doing well, or else they would not keep doing it.
And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.
Crown Crates are anti-consumer because they lock highly desirable products (see: radiant apex mounts) behind RNG with extremely low drop rates, in the hopes of compelling people to spend far more than they would if they offered the same product for a fixed rate. It is manipulative and predatory, and therefore anti-consumer, pro-corporation. See: the people who spent thousands trying to get the Plague Husk Horse. I can guarantee you that the same mount would not have sold in the Crown store for an equivalent price. ZOS is thousands of dollars richer from a few consumers who did not even get the item they were attempting to purchase. Anti-consumer, pro-corporation.
Addiction is a disease, not a personal failing. I’m not offended by your lack of understanding, but I’d encourage you to do a bit of unbiased reading on the subject in medical journals/textbooks before blaming people for an unfortunate consequence of genetic susceptibility.
Actually, as someone who suffers from depression and anxieties, as well as having a couple of bad habits (smoker being the worst) I understand all too well the differences between disease and personality failings. I also understand that it is my responsibility to keep myself away from that black cloud, and nobody else's, as it is my responsibility to break my bad habits. Again, nobody else's. Because I, as an individual am responsible for myself.
As for anti-consumer, again I rebuke your description for the very simple reason of you using the old manipulative and predatory trope.
People who play these crates, I am sure, know that they stand a low chance of gaining a HQ item. And yet they still buy them. I would also actually argue that none of the products are also that desirable. They are cosmetic additions that do nothing to contribute towards the actual gameplay.
If someone is willing to spend hundreds of dollars to get a digital item for a game that will one day shut down and be lost to the ages, well that, to me, is foolish. A fool and his money are soon parted.People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.
Do they though? What are your chances of getting "that item" you want? That's one of the problems. You don't actually know what you chances are.I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.
But children do. An although certainly parent play the biggest role in this, If I were to look up the ESRB rating for ESO, I get this:
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=33311&Title=The+Elder+Scrolls+Online
The "Mature" rating, which according to ESRB means "Blood and Gore, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence". Pretty bad, but I think most of us would find the level of those things in ESO to be pretty tame. My teenager could handle it. She's pretty well grounded in reality in my parental opinion.
But notice how loot crates aren't mentioned at all on the page?
To buy crates you literally have to go onto the account page and enter credit card details to buy crowns, and then you have to go back into the game to spend those crowns.
Unless you have crowns already.
If you allow a teenager access to your bank or credit card, well then that is up to you. Beware the risks that might come with it.
Your last sentence sums it up. As an adult, with a job, who doesn't mind buying crowns and spending them on crates now and then, having to put my credit card in EVERY time is annoying but it is the leverage Zenimax probably needs to say "Children's parents should be aware."
If people are giving their credit cards over to their kids without even asking 'Why?' then why should I or anyone else have to 'protect' their kids or them?
You can see what's wrong with society by reading this post... and others. Saw another the other day where someone actually felt they deserved something for CHOOSING to take an online survey. They were expecting a reward for the time spent... o.O /facepalm
The trading card thing annoys me a little though because whilst yes you rarely got what you want if you did get something rare and you didn't want it you could trade it for something you did want.
Except I didn't.
Kinder eggs, crane machines, trading card packs, things like that. All have, at one time or another, offered a chance for fun shinies.
People play a game of chance. Again, people know they only have a chance and play anyway. Plenty of consumers buy into it willingly without coercion.
Kinder Eggs are also chocolate which can be consumed (and tastes great!) the toys in them are also (at least when I was a kid) good quality and not useless junk (crate consumables).
Crane machines I actually agree with as being the same and they are in fact anti-consumer, but people gonna be dumb.
Trading cards are a prime example of the reasons given for lootboxes being considered gambling. You get a chance to get something, and then can make a return on it - or not if you get a .25 cent rare... Believe me... I've had cases (6x boxes) of M:TG where I barely broke even on a box.
Most of the consumables are usable, and I've never NOT gotten a rare or higher in a pull but now you're arguing the worth each individual puts on an item. Those experience scrolls may just be junk to you, but as a newer player or returning player, they may be use worthy.
Edited by maroite on May 1, 2018 6:48PM0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To buy crates you literally have to go onto the account page and enter credit card details to buy crowns, and then you have to go back into the game to spend those crowns.
Unless you have crowns already.
If you allow a teenager access to your bank or credit card, well then that is up to you. Beware the risks that might come with it.
No doubt.
But you ignored the bulk of my concerns. Do you think ZoS and other companies should reveal the actual odds of winning items in Crown Crates, and that they should be required to state that many items in the game can only be won through games of chance that require the purchase of either ESO+ or Crowns?
I personally think it is important information to be upfront about.
Actually, yes. I think it would be a good thing to post odds of winning X items. I don't see that as a bad thing at all.
Awesome, we agree on something. We should be elected to congress!
I'll just ask a question though, have you thought about why they don't post those odds? You don't have to answer that one, because the reason is fairly obvious.(This question is meant to circle back to certain business practices.)1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes you did. i don't go to the grocery store and pay for a chance at a carton of milk. I don't shop on Amazon for a chance the item will be delivered to my house. If you can't see that "a chance" is anti-consumer you need help.
Because food is an essential item.
Digital items in an MMO are not life necessities.
As an addendum - need help with what, exactly? The burden of independent thought separate from your thoughts?
The irl money you spend on them is...
and *** ALL RNG BOXES !!!!! BURN THEM BURN THEM ALL !!!!
Not a single $ of IRL money has ever been spent on a crown crate...
$ is spent on non-refunable crowns which hold 0 irl value. What you spend those crowns on is up to you at that point.
It's similar to spending money at a fair to buy tickets for rides and games. Not a single irl$ is actually spent to play the games of chance or ride on the rides.
The distinction is important. If real money was being directly exchanged for crowns, there would be an issue. But real money is being exchanged for a worthless currency that only holds virtual value within a video game. At that point, the virtual currency is worth 0$ is real life currency.
All of this to say, if you think crown crates and the crown system should be illegal, you should probably stop bringing your children and yourselves to state fairs, pop-up fairs, circuses, Chuck e Cheese, Six Flags, or any other location that allows to to purchase fake, non-refundable currency, for use within their prize system.
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JWKe✭✭✭✭To have Overwatch on the list to me shows the downside of the EU form of government. Overwatch's lootbox system doesn't even come close to that of ESO or other games infact Overwatch's system is one of the best if not the best considering it's so easy to attain those boxes.
Besides i doubt the USA will follow the EU. Look at metric system, USA does as it pleases.0 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes you did. i don't go to the grocery store and pay for a chance at a carton of milk. I don't shop on Amazon for a chance the item will be delivered to my house. If you can't see that "a chance" is anti-consumer you need help.
Because food is an essential item.
Digital items in an MMO are not life necessities.
As an addendum - need help with what, exactly? The burden of independent thought separate from your thoughts?
The irl money you spend on them is...
and *** ALL RNG BOXES !!!!! BURN THEM BURN THEM ALL !!!!
Ever hear of disposable income ? It's EXTRA money after paying bills/necessities.
Edited by Juju_beans on May 1, 2018 8:11PM1 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭... I don't get why Overwatch is a part because unlike previous rulings against DOTA 2 and Rocket League, the contents of the loot box can't be traded for real world currency as it can in the latter. Even with the upcoming gifting, they can just block the crates from being gifted to players if they deem fit, just like they blocked instant items (bag/bank/bites) and housing. ...
Setting aside child protection laws, most jurisdictions don't care how an item is traded for currency, just that it is. So, if the players establish a market for items or accounts outside of the game (called a secondary market), the element may be satisfied depending on the jurisdiction. In some cases it doesn't even matter that the particular company expressly forbids, by contract, participation in secondary markets.... Further, do people really want governments to get entwined into their games that deeply? The only reason this came about was EA being EA and it was more Disney pressuring a change on the game rather than consumers. Even then all EA did was change the loot boxes to not be bought with real money and they are in compliance with this. I just see this as a really bad slippery slope. Yes if they violate already set laws that are in place, legislate. However, we don't need John Bruce "Jack" Thompson and his ilk gaining a foothold again and doing their damnedest to water down games because it has 'detestable' things in it. It's like the idiots that brought their kids to Sausage Party because it was animated and ignored the large R that was on the poster, then had the audacity to kick their feet because an animated movie wasn't 'kid-friendly.'
Regulation is pervasive. Almost every human activity is regulated in some way, and all commercial activity is regulated.
Why is all commercial activity regulated? Because corporations have a track record of exceedingly bad behavior. Titanic legal battles have been fought over proposed regulation in cases where corporations knowingly weighed human life against profits. For example, government regulation has resulted in such horrible things as the removal of lead from gas, a ban on wiping out whole towns with asbestos, bans on swimming pool drains that suck the intestines out of children, and so on.
Do governments sometimes over-regulate? Of course. However, like a pendulum, it swings back and forth according to popular opinion.
[/quote] ...And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's. [/quote]
Would it change your mind if I told you that there is an ~15% chance that I can make you a compulsive gambler or sex freak with commonly prescribed medications? That the evidence linking human chemistry to compulsion is so clear that parkinson patients in the U.K. and other countries have successfully avoided prison sentences for sexual offenses by using the effects of prescribed dopamine agonists as a defense?
In any case, it is relatively easy for people without compulsive disorders to write off addiction as a self-inflicted wound . It becomes much harder to do so once you understand that compulsive behavior is chemically induced. Getting from medication induced compulsive behavior to genetic susceptibility is not much of a stretch. In fact, it has been proven through family/twin studies. That's not the end of it, though, some tumors, diseases and physical injuries have resulted in the same behavior.
Not to derail the discussion, but you Aussies out there, what was the name of the PM that escaped statutory *** by arguing that his Parkinson medication caused his behavior? I remember the news story because, as part of his defense, his attorneys made an evidentiary showing that he had visited some unbelievably huge number of prostitutes while on the medication.
Edited by Wreuntzylla on May 1, 2018 8:29PM0 -
ZOS_CoriJ✭✭✭✭✭This thread seems to be more about gaming in general and less about ESO. For those of you looking for a more ESO-specific discussion on this topic, there is a thread already in progress where you can post here.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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