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Should we encourage more players to complete vMA as a learning program?
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Namarkas✭✭✭So....shockingly I'm with you on what vMA is good for, but totally opposed to any form of fixed gating. Can the community self gate? Yes. As for stormproof/Flawless titles only in group.
Totally agree. VMA can teach you a lot of stuff, as already mentioned. Fighting while walking while judging the situation all at once, etc. All that awareness is helpful in a lot of other hard content. Yes you can learn that in group content, but getting up to 11 other players for a vet trial just to watch 5 of them learn "fight under pressure" is no fun for anybody, and apart from that, simply harder to organize than 12 player training on their own.
However, vMA is not for everybody, and ofc a healer/tank would need a different character for it. And you can clear hard content without having done vMA, and it might be much more fun wiping with your friends side by side than everybody wiping on their own. And that is probably the biggest issue, I don't know any person who said "vMA training at the beginning was fun".
Encourage: yes, force people: noEdited by Namarkas on April 30, 2018 9:00AM5 -
Mannix1958✭✭✭✭" Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued."
Nor should it be overvalued. Are you really on the side of bringing this game down? The player base would shrink so greatly the game would die out....6 -
Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS4 -
Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭I openly admit I have been too scared to try VMA... as hours of being killed would be pretty soul destroying. I’m at CP380 and always felt I should wait till about CP500 to try it. It it doable at CP380 or should I wait? At the moment I have being doing loads of dungeons normal and a few vet, is the step up in difficulty that severe from a vet dungeon?
@crjs1 Depends what build you use, its a LOT easier on Mag than Stam due to shields & self healing. Also MA it's self is balenced around CP300 from what I'm aware.@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We running VMA for loots tho , training ? No ... the mechanics won't change ...
552 setup is easy and powerful with no effort after summerset , VMA weapons are still the best off hand weapons , but ZOS may release new 5pc set in coming DLC and chapter , VMA will be our memory
Best solo challenging instance , so what ...1 -
Uviryth✭✭✭✭✭Veteran Maelstrom Arena can teach a person a lot about how to play their class and how to play the game beyond a basic level. This would be an ideal training course for prospective guild members, group members, or PVPers. Perhaps, in an effort to better the community, we should take it upon ourselves to suggest that people who have not done vMA do it and also lobby for some sort of content gating behind the completion of Veteran Maelstrom Arena.
VMA teaches you nothing about group play. It teaches you how to be selfsufficient, which is okay for random dungeonrunning, but is very toxic in actual group content.Edited by Uviryth on April 30, 2018 9:15AM6 -
knaveofengland✭✭✭have not tried , still learning all the dungeons and mechanics . still need dungeon sets , do think like anything else when you know its a lot easier .
any learning from pros should be welcomed .
so if the players who are very good at it why not adopt a tomato to make them less squishy .and give them a achievement for thise troubles , after all the more than can show others makes the game a lot more fun .
if you haveing fun you are more likely to keep playing and not rage quit .
wish you well .0 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.
Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.
There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.0 -
Namarkas✭✭✭Veteran Maelstrom Arena can teach a person a lot about how to play their class and how to play the game beyond a basic level. This would be an ideal training course for prospective guild members, group members, or PVPers. Perhaps, in an effort to better the community, we should take it upon ourselves to suggest that people who have not done vMA do it and also lobby for some sort of content gating behind the completion of Veteran Maelstrom Arena.
VMA teaches you nothing about group play. It teaches you how to be selfsufficient, which is okay for random dungeonrunning, but is very toxic in actual group content.
I think nobody claims that you should play in group content the way you play in vMA. However you learn to handle your character in a fight, and that is still needed for group play.
Agreed though that solo players who play solo style in a group are a pain.0 -
datgladiatah✭✭✭All vMA teaches you is that ZOS can create challenging solo content that can give balance to the absurdly easy 500+ hours of open world content they have and they choose not to do anything but streamline stats. People are right, it doesn't have next to anything to do with group content because you have to bring in debuffs and healing abilities that you wouldn't normally need and takes away from rotation. It doesn't mean vMA can't be fun and can't be replicated into more things, like their 15 dollar quarterly DLC with the same open world gameplay every time. But since they don't have any intention on making solo content more interesting and immersive, why would I EVER want to gatekeep the only OTHER challenging content with solo content? It's a bad precursor and a bad idea, period.3 -
VoidBiscuit✭✭✭Just remember, you do actually need to have a tank when you do a trial. Tanks (on the whole, not including the flawless S+Bers) don't like vMA very much.
I think the best option is to give people a title like Stormproof or Flawless Conqueror, so people could tell if they've done vMAEdited by VoidBiscuit on April 30, 2018 9:41AM1 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭VoidBiscuit wrote: »Just remember, you do actually need to have a tank when you do a trial. Tanks (on the whole, not including the flawless S+Bers) don't like vMA very much.
I think the best option is to give people a title like Stormproof or Flawless Conqueror, so people could tell if they've done vMA
I don't think a lot of people "like" vMA. They just know it's necessary to attain BIS weapons but also realize, despite their frustration, it taught them a lot about the game.Edited by Knowledge on April 30, 2018 9:43AM0 -
Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.
Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.
There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.
@Knowledge Tbf I just roley poley while laying DoT's & spamming Vigor, not much else a StamBlade can do *shrug*
Not disagreeing that it's a good training ground, just that it's an entirely different ball game than vet hm dungeons/trials.@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS2 -
Bbsample197✭✭✭✭90% of the playerbase havent touched every veteran dungeons yet, and you want them to do VMA?
if were talking about end game player im pretty sure doing VMA is a norm, i mean you do need the bow and the staff to actually parse higher than normal if youre a dps2 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.
Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.
There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.
That is actually not true. Power Creep for vMA has reached the point where people can kill the boss before he even goes upstairs.
1 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.
Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.
There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.
That is actually not true. Power Creep for vMA has reached the point where people can kill the boss before he even goes upstairs.
His HP locks at 70% and he become immortal and then goes up to the top ring. How is that even possible?0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.
Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.
There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.
That is actually not true. Power Creep for vMA has reached the point where people can kill the boss before he even goes upstairs.
His HP locks at 70% and he become immortal and then goes up to the top ring. How is that even possible?
It doesn't lock. He always has to shoot one skull, teleport and summon one daedroth before teleporting upstairs. Plenty of time to burn him 100 to 0 for some people.0 -
Xoelarasizerer✭✭✭They wouldn't because vMA is part of Orsinium DLC.
Feel free to correct me, but I don't think any gameplay content (in any DLC) is locked behind completing content in a different DLC.
So demanding players need to complete vMA before being allowed to do Trials, Veteran Dungeons, DLC Dungeons or whatever you had in mind would be also criticised for being further paywalled.5 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Xoelarasizerer wrote: »They wouldn't because vMA is part of Orsinium DLC.
Feel free to correct me, but I don't think any gameplay content (in any DLC) is locked behind completing content in a different DLC.
So demanding players need to complete vMA before being allowed to do Trials, Veteran Dungeons, DLC Dungeons or whatever you had in mind would be also criticised for being further paywalled.
Make it a part of the base game like Battlegrounds.0 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.
If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...
However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.
Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.
@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.
Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.
There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.
That is actually not true. Power Creep for vMA has reached the point where people can kill the boss before he even goes upstairs.
His HP locks at 70% and he become immortal and then goes up to the top ring. How is that even possible?
It doesn't lock. He always has to shoot one skull, teleport and summon one daedroth before teleporting upstairs. Plenty of time to burn him 100 to 0 for some people.
It does. Show me proof that it otherwise doesn't. I have seen many videos and never one showing what you're describing. He stays downstairs until hitting 70% and then his HP locks.
Remember we're talking about Veteran. I've never done normal and if that's what you're talking about then I would have no idea.Edited by Knowledge on April 30, 2018 10:23AM4 -
Stewart1874✭✭✭✭✭I find vMA soul crushing. Still cannot do it and i'm 564 (although not tried it in a good few months). Hoping summerset with 5/5/2 might make things easier.PS4 - Europe - Aldmeri Dominion1 -
MattT1988✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Another rubbish idea to add to your ever growing list OP. Gating any kind of content behind VMA is a terrible idea. Especially for healers and tanks. By all means people should be encouraged to give it a go. But don’t force people in there by gating content behind it.Edited by MattT1988 on April 30, 2018 10:35AM11 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It does. Show me proof that it otherwise doesn't. I have seen many videos and never one showing what you're describing. He stays downstairs until hitting 70% and then his HP locks.
Remember we're talking about Veteran. I've never done normal and if that's what you're talking about then I would have no idea.
mmmmmm.
I was just thinking that.
Edited by Androconium on April 30, 2018 10:34AM1 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’d rather gate veteran DLC and base game vet II content behind completion of the normal versions of those dungeons; a lot of those dungeons have mechanics that can’t be bypassed with DPS, so completing them on normal first ensures that everyone at least has a basic idea of what to expect.
VMA does teach you a lot about your class and how to survive in difficult content, but it’s completely unrealistic to gate group content behind completion of vMA.3 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭I’d rather gate veteran DLC and base game vet II content behind completion of the normal versions of those dungeons; a lot of those dungeons have mechanics that can’t be bypassed with DPS, so completing them on normal first ensures that everyone at least has a basic idea of what to expect.
VMA does teach you a lot about your class and how to survive in difficult content, but it’s completely unrealistic to gate group content behind completion of vMA.
How can we give incentive for doing it without forcing players to do it?
Perhaps more rewards? Weapons tokens, weapon choice? If you beat it.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, It doesn’t teach you how to play with others-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5018 -
Violynne✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, it won't. Button mashers will still be button mashers.Veteran Maelstrom Arena can teach a person a lot about how to play their class and how to play the game beyond a basic level.
I don't believe it would, especially for PvP. No matter how "tough" vMA is, it will never represent the player base of PvP. The human element will always be the challenge in this game.This would be an ideal training course for prospective guild members, group members, or PVPers.
I would, instead, offer a different route and have ZoS build a training arena for all players.Perhaps, in an effort to better the community, we should take it upon ourselves to suggest that people who have not done vMA do it and also lobby for some sort of content gating behind the completion of Veteran Maelstrom Arena.
Each "class" can be taught in the different skills one can improve, such as weaving, animation canceling (so people can't stop whining it's a cheat), dodge rolling, blocking, and rotation (key! key! key!).
With each success, students can get "rewarded" with things such as 100% exp gain for 2 hours, boost in M/H/S by 20% for an hour, etc. Something that's actually useful, not a box of wood.
If ZoS were to take the "tutorial" one step further from the Skill Advisor, we could definitely see an improvement overall.
I'd sign up instantly for the rotation class.
4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’d rather gate veteran DLC and base game vet II content behind completion of the normal versions of those dungeons; a lot of those dungeons have mechanics that can’t be bypassed with DPS, so completing them on normal first ensures that everyone at least has a basic idea of what to expect.
VMA does teach you a lot about your class and how to survive in difficult content, but it’s completely unrealistic to gate group content behind completion of vMA.
How can we give incentive for doing it without forcing players to do it?
Perhaps more rewards? Weapons tokens, weapon choice? If you beat it.
The weapons and titles are already incentive enough. I realize you’re probably just trolling, but I’ll bite: if you genuinely want to encourage someone to run vMA, explain the benefit of the weapons you get from the content, explain the benefit of learning the content (e.g. better survival skills), and help them learn how to complete it. Gating content behind vMA will only drive people away. You really have to WANT to complete vMA to have the patience to see it through to the end. If it’s just an unwanted roadblock on the way to other content, people are going to play other games that don’t have such restrictive gating conditions.
4 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭vMA has a bad reputation but the lessons you learn are extremely valuable.
You can avoid a lot of dmg if you follow the mechanics, just like you can in most dungeons.
If you stay calm and pay attention to your surrounding its not that hard to stay alive.
DPS doenst have to be insanely high to complete it, 25k dps is good enough.
High dps should follow when you're comfortable doing the mechanics, the main objective of every player should be survival.
vMA teaches players to self-sustain health and resources while dealing dmg, very useful skill in general.
The downside to vMA is that it very intense and takes a while to finish.
Most casual players probably wont relax while doing a vMA run.
And the learning curve is also quite steep.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer2 -
Aesthier✭✭✭✭✭"Brilliant. Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"
~Abnur Tharn22
This discussion has been closed.