Should we encourage more players to complete vMA as a learning program?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DPS doenst have to be insanely high to complete it, 25k dps is good enough.

^^THIS^^ is EXACTLY the type of comment that needs to be avoided if you want to encourage people to try vMA. Because 25K dps IS an INSANELY HIGH amount of dps for over 90% of players.

anyone how has access to Youtube can learn to do 25k dps with sets that are easy to obtain.
If you think its really hard to parse that something about your build/playstyle is fundamentally off.

No. You are totally, completely off reality. BIS gear and rotation will get anyone between 15 and 20K DPS; Anything above relies on practice and quick button mashing. And weaving. None of it is easy and 90% of players don't master it (nor are they willing to "work" on it because they're here for fun and not for work).

You're also off reality with your "youtube videos". Most videos are badly made, with little to no teaching value. Most people don't want to study videos in order to play a game. Between the two criteria, close to nobody ever learns anything from a video.

I would really, really like @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Chris , @ZOS_Edward or even if possible @ZOS_RichLambert to step up here and provide numbers. Statistics as to what players pull as DPS in dungeons, on dummies, whatever. Because this mythology that 25K DPS is an easy lower minimum as a DD does so much harm that it is HIGH TIME somebody set the facts straight.

Dhukath

Forcing people to complete vMA is a poor method of gaging anyone's ability, as levels of CP, level of character and the fact it is a solo instance are hardly relevant to the majority of group content.

A better method would be:

Story mode, player teams up with 3 NPC's chooses a role and enters a dungeon, they are able to play through but gain no rewards, this would at least make them aware of mechanics. It would also allow people to experience the story, without affecting people who are doing dailies.

Another option would be an arena, whereby you can team up with others and pick a specific (scaled down - lower HP, Damage) boss to practice against, this would teach people the specific mechanics, again no rewards.

Further options include a "Raid Finder", "Scenarios" or "Tutorials".

Motherball

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Maybe gate vet DLC dungeons behind vMA completion character based, not account base?

This is a great idea. I would love to stop the dlc dungeons from popping in randoms since i have not, nor ever desire to, complete vma.

Katahdin

I have not gotten around to doing vma myself yet. I see the value in doing it as a dps.

I am against gating content behind it or making it forced content you have to do.
The weapons themselves are incentive enough

Kiralyn2000

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Maybe they should try something else than light attack bow spam

Edit: Joking aside, anyone how has access to Youtube can learn to do 25k dps with sets that are easy to obtain.
If you think its really hard to parse that something about your build/playstyle is fundamentally off.

There's quite a wide range between "light attack spam" and "25k with good gear and rotation".

For instance, (kind of like that guy in the other thread saying he doesn't have a "build" ), I don't really have a "rotation". I've seen some of the ones that people list out, and I'm not sure I'd ever be able to keep track of all those steps. Seems obnoxious, too. Heck, I don't use a back bar, just the front. But I use all the abilities on that front bar, along with some lousy attempts at weaving, and kill stuff in quests/delves/public dungeons. (my Stam warden soloed the Nechas;dlkafnaryaft public dungeon 'group event' the other day; my much-worse-build bow stamblade likely would have trouble with it.)


But don't worry - I don't do dungeons, let alone vet dungeons. So your pugs are safe from me.


(needless to say, I've never done vMA, nor have any desire to. Tried nMA once on my bad stamblade, but it was bad. I just wandered in with a terrible build, so that's expected. I'm sure my stamden and magplar would do better. If only because they actually have self-heal.)

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

I don't think a lot of people "like" vMA. They just know it's necessary to attain BIS weapons but also realize, despite their frustration, it taught them a lot about the game.

I love it. Used nMA for XP and to get started and then vMA as a challenge to push myself. And I went back to repeat it to get better. The weopons were a bonus.

People that grind it (like any content you grind) will.end up hating it. Hence I'm not sure it needs any more rewards.

Sure all 1pc bonus items need a balance review post summerset. But we dont need more rewards in there.

It's quality content that those who want to be pushed will do. Making people do it to get to other stuff or for other stuff is just miserable.

AlnilamE

Only if they replace the MC with the guy from DSA. He's far more entertaining.

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.

If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...

However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.

Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.

@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.

Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.

There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.

Sorry @Knowledge that's just factually incorrect. Obviously if you burn the boss fast enough, he's dead before he goes up.

@Royaji is correct.

I'm sure you will want proof, rather than take my word for it...

http://youtu.be/ovrg1_PJWgY

TequilaFire

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DPS doenst have to be insanely high to complete it, 25k dps is good enough.

^^THIS^^ is EXACTLY the type of comment that needs to be avoided if you want to encourage people to try vMA. Because 25K dps IS an INSANELY HIGH amount of dps for over 90% of players.

Maybe they should try something else than light attack bow spam

Edit: Joking aside, anyone how has access to Youtube can learn to do 25k dps with sets that are easy to obtain.
If you think its really hard to parse that something about your build/playstyle is fundamentally off.

But light attacks will be OP come Summerset. lmao

Tirps

Knowledge wrote: »

His HP locks at 70% and he become immortal and then goes up to the top ring. How is that even possible?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrg1_PJWgY

Edit. nvm someone posted it already..

Princess_Ciri

timb16_ESO85 wrote: »

/sarcasm

Yes, let healers and tank be tested in vMA, that's a great idea. If they can complete it with a completely different build than is required for their role, they sure have a good grasp on the game. We could certainly use more tanks who think their role is running in and making sure everything either dies or attacks and kills the healer in dungeon finder groups.

/end sarcasm

I've completed vMA on my healer, currently progressing towards flawless on it. The good thing about vMA is that it teaches you more about your class and improves your awareness and ability to deal with difficult mechanics. Sure vMA is easy once you've completed it once, but there is still the challenge of completing it quickly without deaths on a character you don't normally play as anything besides healer/tank.

That said, forcing anyone to do vMA is silly. If people want to improve then they will do vMA eventually anyway, but some people have no desire to do challenging content and that is their choice.

starkerealm

Knowledge wrote: »

Veteran Maelstrom Arena can teach a person a lot about how to play their class and how to play the game beyond a basic level. This would be an ideal training course for prospective guild members, group members, or PVPers. Perhaps, in an effort to better the community, we should take it upon ourselves to suggest that people who have not done vMA do it and also lobby for some sort of content gating behind the completion of Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

I wouldn't call it an ideal training course, but getting more people to take a serious look at it would be a good thing. Players can learn a lot from running vMA. I would be careful about presenting it as some kind of panacea however. It's useful, but some players will simply grind their faces off on it and clear it through dumb luck with enough persistence. So, when people do occasionally pop up and say, "clearing this should be mandatory..." no.

FearlessOne_2014

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.

If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...

However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.

Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.

@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.

Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.

There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.

Sorry @Knowledge that's just factually incorrect. Obviously if you burn the boss fast enough, he's dead before he goes up.

@Royaji is correct.

I'm sure you will want proof, rather than take my word for it...

http://youtu.be/ovrg1_PJWgY

Nice outdated video before all the nerfs to sustain and classwa started happening there in Morrowind. Now I want to see you do that now. In the current iteration of the game. Where everything to include sustain has been gutted.

badmojo

I would also encourage players to get at least 1million AP in Cyrodiil, it certainly makes you a better player and improves your situational awareness. Even better if you dont just group up and mindlessly follow the crown. I think its important for players to make their own tactical decisions and see what happens as a result of them.

Doctordarkspawn

VMA teaches the following:

Burst damage

Spawn placement

How to manage self heals while bursting

What the entire rest of the game needs:

DPS which usually comes from dots and conditions

Rotation

How to avoid stuff while keeping in line with rotation

what VMA teaches only slightly overlaps with what is required by PVE in general and endgame in particular. And in no way at -all- does it prep you for PVP.

This is a flawed idea.

Royaji

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.

If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...

However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.

Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.

@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.

Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.

There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.

Sorry @Knowledge that's just factually incorrect. Obviously if you burn the boss fast enough, he's dead before he goes up.

@Royaji is correct.

I'm sure you will want proof, rather than take my word for it...

http://youtu.be/ovrg1_PJWgY

Nice outdated video before all the nerfs to sustain and classwa started happening there in Morrowind. Now I want to see you do that now. In the current iteration of the game. Where everything to include sustain has been gutted.

Sustain? The boss is dead in 15 seconds. You don't have to care about sustain on such a short fight. It's not easy to waste 40+k stamina (considering you use a pot) in such a short time. It is even easier now with sets like war machine and acuity.

Istoppucks

Wow tried this the in wod and had a lot of pushback. Cant remember what they were called but you had to get gold in order to enter some dungeons.

starkerealm

badmojo wrote: »

I would also encourage players to get at least 1million AP in Cyrodiil, it certainly makes you a better player and improves your situational awareness. Even better if you dont just group up and mindlessly follow the crown. I think its important for players to make their own tactical decisions and see what happens as a result of them.

I mean, ultimately, there's a point here, "play the game enough and you'll start to learn." I love Cyrodiil, but for people who actually dislike PvP, I wouldn't recommend it. I also hesitate to suggest people learn from PvP. The human factor is very easy to exploit in there, and has absolutely no applicability to vet content.

Pink_Violinz

Holy god no. So much no.

Like people have said, healers and tanks are automatically at a disadvantage. Tanks and healers do NOT do damage in dungeons, unless it is a premade group and everyone is on board. If I, a healer, was caught doing dps in a trial I would be killed on sight. Forcing Encouraging everyone to complete vMA would promote everyone to dps everything down as fast as possible. Only in a few areas do you have to pay attention to the mechanics in there, unlike dungeons and especially trials.

VMA also is SOLO content. No amount of solo content is going to teach you how to coordinate group members or synergize with other players.

I'm a Flawless Conqueror on my magblade. I can barely do 20k on a dummy and am terrible at dungeons on her. VMA taught me absolutely nothing on how to play that character. On the other hand, my healer has completed every dungeon on hard mode and almost every trial. That is because I know how to work with others on her. That is a skill that you will not learn from vMA.

Merlin13KAGL

No one is in a place to request gating of content behind completion of other content.

Would you still believe as firmly in your idea when a minimum score or time was required? How about when the cutoff is above what you've accomplished (assuming you have)?

A build for VMA is generally going to be different than a build for any other content in the game. Different builds for different outcomes (clear vs no-death) will vary considerably, as well.

It's as much about memorization as it is about DPS and survival ~ it is not as dynamic as most other content in that regard, certainly not as dynamic as any group content would be, because your group members are not going to do the exact same thing twice in a row.

It doesn't test healer builds. It doesn't test tank builds.

Content already speaks for itself. You either have a legitimate understanding of mechanics, skills, classes, and group synergy, or you don't. You can either adapt to varying situations, or you can't.

I've seen people that can farm VMA that fumble all over themselves in other content. I've seen people that haven't cleared VMA that are absolutely outstanding players. I suspect there are also players that have clears that don't have the slightest clue when it comes to much of anything else in the game. Exceptions to the rules, all around, I suspect.

TL;DR; You either know what the hell you're doing, or you don't. A singular achievement will not change that.

Agreeing, disagreeing, reporting the opinion doesn't change the fact that's it's still a bad idea.

kylewwefan

Nope.

Blanco wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DPS doenst have to be insanely high to complete it, 25k dps is good enough.

Because 25K dps IS an INSANELY HIGH amount of dps for over 90% of players.

Nope. It's an insanely high DPS for no one

I think you’re a bit out of touch with average players man. They’re more like between 10k to 16k. Really good ones are 20k.

Then there’s a jump to players that really know their stuff.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Another knowledgeable thread telling people how to play, how to feel, and what ZoS needs to do to change ESO to something else....
Making people do vMSA is terrible idea. Most haven't done it at all. As said in a earlier post, it can be "soul-crushing" even.
Does it teach you anything? Yes!! Of course it will. But ALL the delvs are different in it's mechanics and ALL vet content is unique.
How will vMSA help with the twin boss in vMoL? What do you learn in vMSA to help with pinion boss in vWGT?
Wanna help players get better?
Help them do all the content and quest lines. Let them progress at their pace with the play style and builds they like.
Please, run vMSA on a full tank build and post vid. Point made.

Additional suggestion... Require everyone to run vDSA before they can run group dungeons so they can learn how to work as group.
And I LOVE the idea of Master Angler before you can PvP...(yes, /sarcasm).

anitajoneb17_ESO

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

And I LOVE the idea of Master Angler before you can PvP...

hahahaha !!! Have an awesome

Jaimeh

Although vMA is a good place for learning one’s class and skills, I disagree with it being a mandatory requirement for participation in content. There are plenty of other ways in which one can learn how to play, and besides, the most important thing in vMA is not class/skill knowledge, but the arena’s own mechanics; that’s why it’s easy for people who have cleared it on their main toons to then easily do it on alts that they haven’t really played much with. It’s a tedious solo instance that’s not fun, and moreover, it’s locked behind a DLC.

Remee

Some dps builds can't complete it. Most weekly completes are by sorcs.

Tasear

Knowledge wrote: »

timb16_ESO85 wrote: »

/sarcasm

Yes, let healers and tank be tested in vMA, that's a great idea. If they can complete it with a completely different build than is required for their role, they sure have a good grasp on the game. We could certainly use more tanks who think their role is running in and making sure everything either dies or attacks and kills the healer in dungeon finder groups.

/end sarcasm

They will definitely have more awareness, negotiate mechanics better, and understand the fundamentals of the game more. Healers are expected to DPS too.

Healers heal.

Aebaradath

You have no idea what you're talking about.

xaraan

God what a terrible idea to make MA anymore important. Bad enough there are a couple BiS weapons from there.

Personally I have yet to complete it and I'm probably as veteran in the game as most other old school guys (played since pre-beta, done all dungeons and trials on vHM, though still working on vAS HM+2 clear, played tons of pvp, etc) and I've started it on 3 characters and gotten about 4-5 rounds in and stopped b/c I got bored, not b/c I was dying and hit a wall or anything drastic. In fact, I find the whole run more annoying than challenging, nothing in this game has been as hard as playing a stamina nightblade at beta/launch and fighting some of the over-tuned bosses.

Frankly it's just a tedious bunch of meh to me. I don't play multi-player games to play single player. I don't mind the questing and other easy stuff b/c it's more casual and relaxing, but once the game gets to a point where it's asking for my focus I prefer the teamwork aspect and if I want a good single player challenge, then I play a single player game. I've thrown my head against the wall in this game for hours trying to beat some of these HMs and other achievement challenges with my friends, but I just can't muster up the amount of caring needed to run the last few rounds of MA.

Some of my friends are telling me always to just finish it, grind it out, but the fact that i know I'll probably have a 90% chance of getting a crap weapon from it and not a use-able one meaning I'll have to do it again anyhow, and again, etc (even with transmute) makes me just not care that much more. I know some of you guys have run it hundreds of times to get gear before transmute, hats off to you, but it's not for me.

And frankly, there is a reason the leaderboards are no longer packed - the population running MA dropped like a rock when transmute came out b/c most players really don't enjoy it. I've run countless dungeons, trials, DSA, etc. just to run with friends and have a good time, but I don't know anyone (I'm sure someone will pop up and say they love it - grats for being in the .1%) that runs MA for fun. Even the guys I know that say they didn't mind it were like, "never running that again" once they could just transmute gear they had.

I could see how for a brand new player, it 's a good test of getting used to mechanics and putting together a good build, etc. but that should be a personal choice and never forced on them. And for others, like me, I honestly don't get anything knowledge wise from running it that would help me in the rest of the game that I haven't learned already in the years I've played outside of just how to run MA more efficiently.

Knowledge

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Wouldn't force it on anyone, especially stam characters. Heals are based on doing damage, killing stuff or Vigor which forces them to PVP.

If you get hit with anything inbetween mobs spawning you're a gonner, take that from someone who failed countless times between CP200-300 on a DW StamBlade...

However I'd say yes do suggest it at higher CP as it's a decent training ground, but mostly it's just memorising where everything spawns to avoid damage.

Most fights in the game are scripted. If you do Veteran Scalecaller Hardmode the mechanics don't change and what the boss does doesn't change. Memorizing what she does and when is a part of the process. Because vMA is scripted, like most fights in the game, it shouldn't be devalued.

@Knowledge While that's true about mechanics the way to win at vMA is to kill everything before mechanics happen. Don't think that's possible on Vet hardmode Scalecaller.

Take a look at Stage 9. You can't skip the mechanics no matter how much DPS you do. You will still have to go to the top floating ring, kill the crystals, block the skull attacks, evade the red. It's not going to matter if you do more or less damage you're still just as susceptible to dying as everyone else and still must do the mechanics.

There's many other instances of this in vMA I just figured I'd use this example.

Sorry @Knowledge that's just factually incorrect. Obviously if you burn the boss fast enough, he's dead before he goes up.

@Royaji is correct.

I'm sure you will want proof, rather than take my word for it...

http://youtu.be/ovrg1_PJWgY

Thanks for showing this it was pretty awesome. I stand corrected. One thing I noticed that he did was use a Spectral Explosion from capturing 3 ghosts. I suppose this gives him a special burst window. He had them from the previous round.

Knowledge

Tasear wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

timb16_ESO85 wrote: »

/sarcasm

Yes, let healers and tank be tested in vMA, that's a great idea. If they can complete it with a completely different build than is required for their role, they sure have a good grasp on the game. We could certainly use more tanks who think their role is running in and making sure everything either dies or attacks and kills the healer in dungeon finder groups.

/end sarcasm

They will definitely have more awareness, negotiate mechanics better, and understand the fundamentals of the game more. Healers are expected to DPS too.

Healers heal.

And good healers help DPS.