Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

JumpmanLane wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

reprosal wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

Jumpy ain’t like NONE of y’all! Hehehehe. I got the gear and the stones (MUNDUS hehehehe) to PVE AND PVP. I don’t start nerf threads and beg ZOS for nothing. I’m not a PVP player, nor a PVE player. I’m an ESO player.

What I don’t do is whine, or play PVE with PvP gear, or PVP with PVE gear. Play more, whine less. Why gimp yourself then complain. My advice to you.

I PvP and PvE... I really am not whining. I just thoroughly enjoy and like the animations of 2H line a lot better. It just sucks that we are pigeon holed into DW to keep our spots in an end game trial guild. Everything should be comparable within 2-4%. Not a 15% difference.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

reprosal wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

Jumpy ain’t like NONE of y’all! Hehehehe. I got the gear and the stones (MUNDUS hehehehe) to PVE AND PVP. I don’t start nerf threads and beg ZOS for nothing. I’m not a PVP player, nor a PVE player. I’m an ESO player.

What I don’t do is whine, or play PVE with PvP gear, or PVP with PVE gear. Play more, whine less. Why gimp yourself then complain. My advice to you.

I've already addressed the tired and obtuse "2H is for PVP and DW is for PVE so get over it" meme at length so I'm not going to bother with a further response on that.

Please try to provide some productive input on the topic at hand: 2H light attack strength being weakened in comparison to that of every other weapon in the game and the PVE implications of that.

You're coming in here and whining about a thread you consider to be whining. What does that make you?

Um...wear a five piece set with your 2H sword counting as 2 slots and enjoy (forGET all the trouble it took to get that masters 2H in the right trait hehehehe).

The only viable endgame 2H build right now, the 2H stamsorc, typically uses 5 Acuity, 3 Agility, 2 Stormfist, and a Master/Asylum GS (depending on trash/boss) paired with a Maelstrom Bow.

That's my setup. It doesn't gain a whole lot from the additional set slot on the PTS.

That setup is good for 30k+ damage, and with a perfect rotation would probably hit 33-35k, but it still underperforms compared to the DW+Bow Stamsorc, where I can do 2-3k DPS more no sweat.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

reprosal wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Totally agree!

Jumpy ain’t like NONE of y’all! Hehehehe. I got the gear and the stones (MUNDUS hehehehe) to PVE AND PVP. I don’t start nerf threads and beg ZOS for nothing. I’m not a PVP player, nor a PVE player. I’m an ESO player.

What I don’t do is whine, or play PVE with PvP gear, or PVP with PVE gear. Play more, whine less. Why gimp yourself then complain. My advice to you.

I PvP and PvE... I really am not whining. I just thoroughly enjoy and like the animations of 2H line a lot better. It just sucks that we are pigeon holed into DW to keep our spots in an end game trial guild. Everything should be comparable within 2-4%. Not a 15% difference.

I actually TRULY feel your pain. (Albeit and again from a PvP perspective. I know, I know). I really hated being pigeonholed into using 2H instead of DW in PvP because I enjoy DW in PvE. I used it anyways and came to like it. I love the gap closer and I love the execute.

Sometimes, when I switch fro PvP and do PvE I won’t change weapons and skills and use 2H for PvE and it’s a little slower but it’s viable. So, I get the being pigeonholed part.

I wouldn’t dream of using 2H in PvE for serious stuff. DW is just loads better (faster, more damage). ZOS thinking may be that by giving you 2H=2 slots would be Op so we’ll nerf light attacks. Say I slot, what’s that crap set UNFATHOMABLE DARKNESS, jewelry and a 2H sword. It’d proc off of a light attack. With enough cp that 5k damage 4 or 5 times. Take Spriggans with jewelry and a great sword, you’d get all that extra pen just for slotting the sword. I suppose it’s ZOS idea of balance.

Honestly on Live/PTS right now 2H AoE damage is leaps and bounds ahead of DW. It just suffers so bad on single target for the simple fact that light attack weaving sucks (talking PTS now primarily).

I’m unfamiliar with a 2H PvE rotation. What do you back bar. (Sorry in advance) In PvP I don’t light attack with the 2H except by mistake. I only use fully charged heavies and light attack on the back bar (bow). I use Bloodspawn with the 2H and invigorating drain to generate ulti, consequently I rarely weave in light attacks in my rotation, if what you do in PvP can be called a rotation.

Early on (before I got Mephala), I weaved light attacks in, in PVE dual wielding in order to generate ulti (usually line of sighting around the boss’ body). I used to think, I need to heavy attack more lol. Mephala procs off of heavy. So, now, I still light attack just for ulti gen and to save resources.

My question is with a 2H, are you REALLY light attacking a lot in your rotation? If so, I get it about the nerf.

So, Alcast has a pretty good write up here:

https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-2h-build-pve/


My rotation is:

Endless Hail > Light Attack > Reaming Trap > Light Attack > Razor Caltrops > Light Attack > Poison Injection > Weapon Swap
Wrecking Blow > Heavy Attack > Wrecking Blow > Heavy Attack > Wrecking Blow > Light Attack > Brawler > Weapon Swap
Restart

Apply Hurricane as needed, making sure it expires right before you recast.

I lay my dots in a different pattern to Alcast, taking account for the casting/descent time of Endless Hail and clipping into it. The way I have it set up they all end at nearly the same time, and when Injection is at roughly 3 seconds or so I know to switch and reapply for close to 100% uptime.

So, the problem with this build in the next patch is twofold:

1) Bound Armaments is going to change from buffing Heavy Attacks to Light Attacks. It will, however no longer be a toggle and work when slotted like Magelight. This means it won't have to be double-barred if you're just using it for max stamina cap to boost tooltip/attack power

2) Wrecking Blow is changing because Empower is changing to where it buffs the next light attack to 40%

This means you really want to be light attacking now in the spammable portion of your rotation. Then, since your source of sustain is gone, slotting Dark Deal on backbar for sustain where you used to slot the backbar instance of Bound Armaments. You'll never hit your peak stam cap on front bar but that doesn't matter since you can use Dark Deal to keep enough up to maintain your rotation. We're just using BA for increased cap/scaling and Light Attack damage now. The other viable option--and one I want to explore--is switching out Wrecking Blow for the new Psijic spammable Crushing Weapon. But even then, you still want to be light attacking.

However, individual 2H light attacks now deal less damage than DW ones; sustained light attacking deals 40% less damage, and 2H Heavy Attacks deal 18% less damage than they do on Live. If you switch over to Crushing Weapon there's literally no reason whatsoever to not use DW in this build and shuffle up the itemization and frontbar skills just a little bit, and get considerably better results.


But the problem goes well beyond that.

Why do the largest, heaviest weapons in the game now swing for the least damage per swing of all weapons? Why is their sustained light attack damage now 40% less than Dual Wield? This has ramifications both in PVP AND PVE, but since what PVP gets out of 2H has nothing to do with damage and everything to do with having Critical Charge/Stampede (gap closer), Rally/Forward Momentum (heal over time and brutality), and Executioner (powerful single target execute) all in one skill line, it's not going to address the "problems" with 2H in PVP.

In making light attack damage the least of all weapons, Zenimax isn't addressing any perceived power issues with 2H in PVP, while completely neutering the one viable PVE build and ensuring that no others can be developed. That's a harsh deal for a weapon type for which nobody, up until this point, had any issue with its light attack damage.

Kanar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.

Wut? Most pvpers I know can pull 40k dps parses while sleeping. That's exactly why they dont like pve because its mind numbingly repetitive

Stickbow wrote: »

Though I enjoy conversations wandering off into the ether as much as anyone, what arguments have been made that giving all other weapons light attack buffs, yet nerfing 2H light attacks actually makes sense?

Don't give me the "you got credit for 2 slots with 2H now" -- 'cause Bow and Staves did too, but got a buff to light attacks, and all the 2-piece skill lines had that buff all along (plus got and still get the added enchant/proc from the other item).

Read the earlier posts showing parses in Live vs. PTS.

So - what is the logic behind nerfing one skill line's LA, buffing all the others, when the one being nerfed hadn't been shown to have an advantage because of those light attacks?

If you're not answering that particular question, which was the OP's as well, why do you insist on posting on this thread?

This 1000%

@zos_wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

MaxwellC wrote: »

I still find this notion that light attacks should dole out more damage then Heavy attacks to be funny and IMO stupid.
Think of the logic here:
Light attacks = less wind up and in nature less swing strength.
Heavy attacks = high wind up and in nature more swing strength.

So how is that logical that a heavy attack should deal less damage than a light attack that is meant to be used in quick succession? A Heavy attack should deal the most up-front damage while the light attack rotation should deal slightly more if weaved nearly perfect IMO.

I mean personally, if if were my decision, I would have light attacks be the ones that deal less overall damage per second but restore stamina/magicka in each hit. Kind of a "conserving your energy for the next attack." Balanced correctly it would make weaving essential not just for additional DPS, but for sustain, which I think would be a more easily communicated way to get newer players into the idea of weaving. You'll run dry if you don't. Then heavy attacks would be way to deal the most upfront damage, and things like Empower would specifically boost those, at the cost of breaking your weaving rotation and possibly even costing some stamina.

However, the reason things aren't this way is, to be honest, PVP. ZOS goes to great lengths to ensure that damage can only get so bursty in PVP, and having heavy attacks be the basic damaging attack that's slow but devastating kind of allows for a greater amount of burst potential inherent in every build. A constant, overarching goal of theirs is to reduce burst sources and allow for counterplay. It's an understandable goal, because bursting someone down in a second or two with a combination of powerful attacks, without them having a chance to react simply isn't fun. This results in a situation where the opposite arrangement on what light/heavy attacks do is preferred, because sustained DPS is easier to balance than a bursty heavy attack.


Either arrangement would be bad for 2H at the moment, because 2-Handed's light attacks are, depending on build, either on par or slightly below where they were on Live (where every other skill's got boosted to the point that they exceed 2H's by a considerable margin if you factor in sustained DPS), and 2H's Heavy Attack damage was reduced by 18% (while every other weapons' remains mostly flat or with a slight single-digit percentage decrease).

Honestly this is what this whole thread is about, because the situation both makes no sense and is incredibly unintuitive. The biggest weapons in the game deal the least amount of damage, both in individual hits and over time. If changes aren't made, imagine trying to explain that to a new player once this goes Live.

Kanar wrote: »

The real reason why 2hander dps is lower than DW is because it has one fewer dot skills and the one it has is inferior to blood craze. In addition 2h does not have AoE damage reduction, which requires 2h builds to have higher health to survive in some situations.

This should be somewhat offset by how fast two handers can generate ultimate. Especially with an Asylum weapon. Though, some of that might just be the Asylum weapon.

PVP requires much more skill than any PVE HM. You can tell all day of how hard X HM is but that can be learned praticing the content over and over. Eventually you make it past mechanics (IE Bosses doing pre-defined things when they hit certain % health), you don't need skill to complete them, can be done with pratice alone. PVP you are fighting against N targets with N builds and N reaction times, skills, ping, terrain, it is just a massive clusterfk. Even with the highest level of skills the ordeal is so unpredictable that you can end up losing. You can't possible tell me that is "easier" than a predictable scenario like PVE content...

Having 2H and DW perform good and balanced in both contents will only add to the health of the game by offering more options. Of course it's possible to do, thinking things aren't possible...well that would have us still stuck at the stone age. Melee weapons should hit harder than ranged ones considering the risk/reward and 2H should have some advantages over DW that makes it competitive in PVE (since 2H is a slower weapon, even in Skyrim you have that discussion btw Farkas and the dunmer in the Companions) and DW should be adapted to be competitive in PVP, you gotta be kidding me that they aren't, any decent Gladiators in history of mankind used DW.

Athis: "You might do well to learn a new weapon. Vary your style a bit."
Farkas: "Tiny blades don't hurt enough. A sword needs weight."
Athis: "But ten little cuts..."
Farkas: "All I need is one to cut you in half."

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

If they left 2h light attack as is on live, then did the rescaling to make it even stronger like with every other weapon, it might put 2H in line with DW in pve.

Imagine the 2h having the most powerful light attack, like it should, since it's physically the biggest weapon.

As I mentioned above, the light attack nerf will be minimal at best, as Two handed's issues are the line itself. Besides, if the light attacks bother you that much, I don't see why you aren't taking an issue with magicka's destro staves, since those got buffed hard with the scaling change.

Unless they change the two handed skill line (which I heavily doubt they will, but who knows with ZoS) Dual Wield will outshadow Two hander due to one thing: Active skills. All the skills in Dual Wield are pretty good for PvE (maybe with the exception of Rapid strikes) While two handed has a mediocre skill in brawler, a very poor and clunky spammable with Wrecking Blow, and Reverse Slash, which is pretty good. Rally has only use in solo content, with Crit charge holding the same sentiment. None of those have anything to do with light attacking.

I'm sounding more like a broken record here, but like I said in my previous post, why is 2h so prevalent in PvP? It isn't the damage, it is the utility. The damage skills are an added bonus. They could nerf the damage dizzy swing fairly hard that won't be too hard as, while it'll have an impact, it is mainly used for the hard CC, if used at all. Momentum and morphs make the skill line simply the bees knees for Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds on the buff bar to the point Magicka Nightblades run it for snare removal, which furthers the point of it being utility.

The only way this will change is if ZoS ever decide to do something about it, which probably won't happen unless the majority of the player base QQ about it.