The state of 2h PvE dps: test vs live

Xvorg · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Leemado wrote: »

[*] DW attacks are faster than 2H
[*] Light attack DPS considering speed of DW seems to be 46% more than 2H

Light attack speed should be the same if I'm not mistaken. Heavy attack speed is however different and that is mostly due to the fact 2H has an empower passive after a fully charged heavy attack.

Follow up is not an empower though 2H has access to empower in their rotations (Hello WB). Nevertheless, the main difference in between 2H and DW is the fact that 2H has one of the best resources passive in the game which is Battle rush. After killing an oponent it increases your stam recovery a 30% for 10 secs. Paired with major and minor endurance, and full heavy attacks it is huge.

So, I'm Ok with a stam weapons doing different things: one for tanking, one for dmg, one for range and the last for resource recover

usmcjdking · April 2018

we're talking about *** light attacks here, not the end game balance discussions of 2h stamplar vs DW stamdk.

NyassaV · April 2018

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

I would appreciate it if you read my post again a little slower and with a little more comprehension. I mentioned Blade Cloak. It's an AOE DOT that's about to get a 40% damage nerf, but the main reason it's slotted is the significant AOE damage reduction when slotted, making it chiefly a utility skill.

And as for Flurry/Bloodthirst/etc I reiterate: For the purposes of determining whether a skill line has built-in utility, what skills actually see use are irrelevant, because that's highly dependent on their damage/mitigation/healing/utility numbers compared to other skills. What matters is whether the skill is intended for a given use. That's what balance is.

As I described in detail, the only tool that 2H gets that DW does not get is a gap closer that does no damage. In return they get an AOE DOT with a massive damage reduction to incoming AOE attacks. You know, a different kind of utility skill.

In terms of PVE usage, 2H has been way behind DW for a very long time and nerfing its damage further is not okay. The reason is that not only does it make the skill line even more irrelevant in PVE, it doesn't address why it's so ubiquitous in PVP.

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

2H has a recovery passive unlike DW, it has an empower passive, unlike DW. They are 2 very different trees for very different things. It is idiotic to try and make them the same

usmcjdking wrote: »

we're talking about *** light attacks here, not the end game balance discussions of 2h stamplar vs DW stamdk.

Kinda my thoughts on this. Your fighting a loosing battle and the battle may not be worth fighting to begin with

Xvorg · April 2018

Tempestwrath wrote: »

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

No.

What you are asking is a versión of DW with all the benefits of DW and no drawbacks, and you want to call that "2H". I suppose you use the same sets to test DPS in DW and in 2H and that's why they seem so different, but from now on you have to understand that 2H must be build differently to reach similar numbers compared to DW. That implies:

1- Less resource recover (as I said above regarding battle rush)
2- More reliability in proc sets than DW
3- More reliability in its utilities, 2H grants minor heroism, empower, has an execute and a passive that mimicries twin blade and blunt, though stronger, especially for great axes. Haven't you think that DW axes overwite their own chances to apply the bleed and that's why they run an axe and a dagger?

So with that in mind, a 2H succesful build has to be different from a DW build.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

No.

What you are asking is a versión of DW with all the benefits of DW and no drawbacks, and you want to call that "2H". I suppose you use the same sets to test DPS in DW and in 2H and that's why they seem so different, but from now on you have to understand that 2H must be build differently to reach similar numbers compared to DW. That implies:

1- Less resource recover (as I said above regarding battle rush)
2- More reliability in proc sets than DW
3- More reliability in its utilities, 2H grants minor heroism, empower, has an execute and a passive that mimicries twin blade and blunt, though stronger, especially for great axes. Haven't you think that DW axes overwite their own chances to apply the bleed and that's why they run an axe and a dagger?

So with that in mind, a 2H succesful build has to be different from a DW build.

Okay. Find me a PVE 2H build that can deliver DPS anywhere in the same universe as DW. You can't, because they don't exist. The only one that gets close is Stamsorc, and it's still way behind. It will be further behind after this patch. I know this from experience, because I have used both builds in high level Veteran content.

And it wouldn't be a better version of DW. DW will always have:

1) An inherently higher crit potential
2) A ranged ability
3) An extra DOT
4) An AOE damage reduction skill.
5) An AOE execute with single target execute damage built into the Slaughter passive.
6) An extra enchantment.

In no objective way could 2H be construed, with better light attack damage, as a "better version of DW"

You're speaking from a PVP perspective and this is a PVE thread. The points you are raising, while valid for PVP, are not relevant to this discussion. If there are reasons why 2H outperforms DW in PVP there are many ways to address that without further hobbling the skill in PVE.

Give me one reason why an entire skill line should be irrelevant in an entire, large segment of the game. I'd love to hear it.

Leemado · April 2018

In fact

Xvorg wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

No.

What you are asking is a versión of DW with all the benefits of DW and no drawbacks, and you want to call that "2H". I suppose you use the same sets to test DPS in DW and in 2H and that's why they seem so different, but from now on you have to understand that 2H must be build differently to reach similar numbers compared to DW. That implies:

1- Less resource recover (as I said above regarding battle rush)
2- More reliability in proc sets than DW
3- More reliability in its utilities, 2H grants minor heroism, empower, has an execute and a passive that mimicries twin blade and blunt, though stronger, especially for great axes. Haven't you think that DW axes overwite their own chances to apply the bleed and that's why they run an axe and a dagger?

So with that in mind, a 2H succesful build has to be different from a DW build.

In fact we are not asking to have 2H buffed to do the same DPS as DW... no. We are asking for it not be nerfed this way which will hurt in PVE. If balance is what is needed for PVP then ZOS should look at the skills that make it overperform on PVP and not hurt it in PVE even more.

Kanar · April 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

No.

What you are asking is a versión of DW with all the benefits of DW and no drawbacks, and you want to call that "2H". I suppose you use the same sets to test DPS in DW and in 2H and that's why they seem so different, but from now on you have to understand that 2H must be build differently to reach similar numbers compared to DW. That implies:

1- Less resource recover (as I said above regarding battle rush)
2- More reliability in proc sets than DW
3- More reliability in its utilities, 2H grants minor heroism, empower, has an execute and a passive that mimicries twin blade and blunt, though stronger, especially for great axes. Haven't you think that DW axes overwite their own chances to apply the bleed and that's why they run an axe and a dagger?

So with that in mind, a 2H succesful build has to be different from a DW build.

You clearly don't even understand the 2h skills yet insist on talking about their "advantages". Further, you assume we don't know how to build a 2h character...but your knowledge comes from where? I haven't seen you post any data except your own incorrect understanding of the 2h skills. So, let's correct a few of your misunderstandings:
1. Battle rush does not apply to heavy attacks, it applies to Regen. PvE builds have have less than 700 BASE Regen, so 30% is almost nothing.
2. No one uses carve in PvE. Brawler is used for the shield to make up for lack of aoe protection.
3. 2h version of blade and blunt is WORSE. Do you understand that axe+dagger is preferred because 8% bleed chance is all that is needed? DW BENEFITS by getting to split up their bonus to bleed plus crit, whereas 2h has to go all-in on bleed...and doesn't even have a crit option.
4. DW has an active execute and a passive execute, WB is so slow it's useless in most builds even with empower (which is getting nerfed). A light attack build without WB will be better IMO.

ghastley · April 2018

Don't forget that 2H is getting a set slot back at the same time. None of these arguments is considering what that can add.

Right now on live, DW benefits from each weapon counting for set bonuses, with a greatsword, maul, or whatever only counting once. That extra set bonus may or may not offset the nerf, but I haven't yet seen any numbers.

Are the OP numbers with the weapons not having any set bonus?

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

ghastley wrote: »

Don't forget that 2H is getting a set slot back at the same time. None of these arguments is considering what that can add.

Right now on live, DW benefits from each weapon counting for set bonuses, with a greatsword, maul, or whatever only counting once. That extra set bonus may or may not offset the nerf, but I haven't yet seen any numbers.

Are the OP numbers with the weapons not having any set bonus?

A extra set which dw already has. It's already been tested. Even with the set bonus, DW still outclassed 2H in dps.

Deadly cloak, rending slashes, 2 enchants, Rend Ultimate (one of the best in the game) are why DW will continue to outclass 2H despite the set bonus change.

ZOS has the oversight to nerf 2H light attacks despite this disparity.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

ghastley wrote: »

Don't forget that 2H is getting a set slot back at the same time. None of these arguments is considering what that can add.

Right now on live, DW benefits from each weapon counting for set bonuses, with a greatsword, maul, or whatever only counting once. That extra set bonus may or may not offset the nerf, but I haven't yet seen any numbers.

Are the OP numbers with the weapons not having any set bonus?

So, guess what other skill lines now get two set bonuses now? Bow and all Staff types. And their light attack damage was increased alongside that, while 2H's was made the weakest in the game.

I'm not exactly sure how that compensates for anything.

In addition, testing has been done in this very thread that indicates that this change does not close the gap between 2H and DW any. It in fact gets wider, because endgame PVE 2H builds were using Asylum/Master weapons to make up the gap already. I can attest to that via personal experience. The change is nice, but we already found ways to adapt and produce comparable results to the extra set slot beforehand.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

I would appreciate it if you read my post again a little slower and with a little more comprehension. I mentioned Blade Cloak. It's an AOE DOT that's about to get a 40% damage nerf, but the main reason it's slotted is the significant AOE damage reduction when slotted, making it chiefly a utility skill.

And as for Flurry/Bloodthirst/etc I reiterate: For the purposes of determining whether a skill line has built-in utility, what skills actually see use are irrelevant, because that's highly dependent on their damage/mitigation/healing/utility numbers compared to other skills. What matters is whether the skill is intended for a given use. That's what balance is.

As I described in detail, the only tool that 2H gets that DW does not get is a gap closer that does no damage. In return they get an AOE DOT with a massive damage reduction to incoming AOE attacks. You know, a different kind of utility skill.

In terms of PVE usage, 2H has been way behind DW for a very long time and nerfing its damage further is not okay. The reason is that not only does it make the skill line even more irrelevant in PVE, it doesn't address why it's so ubiquitous in PVP.

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

DK’s are forced to use 2H in PvP for all the reasons you mentioned AND because of damage. Every one is in impen so DW daggers is out.

reprosal · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

I would appreciate it if you read my post again a little slower and with a little more comprehension. I mentioned Blade Cloak. It's an AOE DOT that's about to get a 40% damage nerf, but the main reason it's slotted is the significant AOE damage reduction when slotted, making it chiefly a utility skill.

And as for Flurry/Bloodthirst/etc I reiterate: For the purposes of determining whether a skill line has built-in utility, what skills actually see use are irrelevant, because that's highly dependent on their damage/mitigation/healing/utility numbers compared to other skills. What matters is whether the skill is intended for a given use. That's what balance is.

As I described in detail, the only tool that 2H gets that DW does not get is a gap closer that does no damage. In return they get an AOE DOT with a massive damage reduction to incoming AOE attacks. You know, a different kind of utility skill.

In terms of PVE usage, 2H has been way behind DW for a very long time and nerfing its damage further is not okay. The reason is that not only does it make the skill line even more irrelevant in PVE, it doesn't address why it's so ubiquitous in PVP.

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

DK’s are forced to use 2H in PvP for all the reasons you mentioned AND because of damage. Every one is in impen so DW daggers is out.

Again, nobody here cares about PvP reasons. I am sick of PvE getting screwed because people can’t avoid 2H attacks that have insane telegraphs in PvP.

Mannox · April 2018

My love and hate emotions for the ZOS dev team is putting me at heart attack levels. The announcement for 2H counting towards 2pc set bonuses had me spinning with happiness. Now, the PTS is absolutely crushing my desire to play 2H in endgame PvE. I REALLY hope they do something about it. It's just so stupid that they keep letting 2H drag behind. it has been *** years now.

reprosal · April 2018

Mannox wrote: »

My love and hate emotions for the ZOS dev team is putting me at heart attack levels. The announcement for 2H counting towards 2pc set bonuses had me spinning with happiness. Now, the PTS is absolutely crushing my desire to play 2H in endgame PvE. I REALLY hope they do something about it. It's just so stupid that they keep letting 2H drag behind. it has been *** years now.

Agreed. But people are whining that DW is PvE and 2H is PvP. Stupid thing is. Anything is workable in PvP based on your skill level. 2H is straight up NO comparison to DW. No reason for anyone to not want it balanced apart from fear of being owned in PvP.

usmcjdking · April 2018

Just so I get this straight @ZOS_GinaBruno

The CP 160 Light Attack spamming DPSer with a 2h is at an inherent disadvantage compared to the staff light attack spammer.

I really hope that is stated in the tutorial or any of the guides.

RavenSworn · April 2018

Thanks op for the simple test done. Somehow, this was swept under the carpet, really under the radar.

At the very least, the light attack damage should have stayed as it is, rather than reduced. It's excellent that bow had their LA damage increased but that will just lead to exclusive weapon use for pve, much like current meta. It sucks.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

reprosal wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

I would appreciate it if you read my post again a little slower and with a little more comprehension. I mentioned Blade Cloak. It's an AOE DOT that's about to get a 40% damage nerf, but the main reason it's slotted is the significant AOE damage reduction when slotted, making it chiefly a utility skill.

And as for Flurry/Bloodthirst/etc I reiterate: For the purposes of determining whether a skill line has built-in utility, what skills actually see use are irrelevant, because that's highly dependent on their damage/mitigation/healing/utility numbers compared to other skills. What matters is whether the skill is intended for a given use. That's what balance is.

As I described in detail, the only tool that 2H gets that DW does not get is a gap closer that does no damage. In return they get an AOE DOT with a massive damage reduction to incoming AOE attacks. You know, a different kind of utility skill.

In terms of PVE usage, 2H has been way behind DW for a very long time and nerfing its damage further is not okay. The reason is that not only does it make the skill line even more irrelevant in PVE, it doesn't address why it's so ubiquitous in PVP.

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

DK’s are forced to use 2H in PvP for all the reasons you mentioned AND because of damage. Every one is in impen so DW daggers is out.

Again, nobody here cares about PvP reasons. I am sick of PvE getting screwed because people can’t avoid 2H attacks that have insane telegraphs in PvP.

2H just sucks all the way around. It’s too slow and clunky. I wouldn’t dream of using it in PVE. I’d much prefer DW in PvP but only Krotha’s build for StamDK seems viable it similar to how you’re whining because 2H can’t match meta DW pve builds. DW can’t match 2H without a legit gap closer like Crit Rush. You just get noticbly less kills because it’s hard to stay on top of them. It has nothing to do with skill. I rock Murder Mahogany. I ain’t worried about getting owned or gitting good hehehehe.

I mean ZOS basically forces you to use DW in PvE and 2H as a DK in PvP do it or go play Skyrim.

Sevn · April 2018

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

commdt · April 2018

Just give us our damn 2H in PvE already

Aliyavana · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

I would appreciate it if you read my post again a little slower and with a little more comprehension. I mentioned Blade Cloak. It's an AOE DOT that's about to get a 40% damage nerf, but the main reason it's slotted is the significant AOE damage reduction when slotted, making it chiefly a utility skill.

And as for Flurry/Bloodthirst/etc I reiterate: For the purposes of determining whether a skill line has built-in utility, what skills actually see use are irrelevant, because that's highly dependent on their damage/mitigation/healing/utility numbers compared to other skills. What matters is whether the skill is intended for a given use. That's what balance is.

As I described in detail, the only tool that 2H gets that DW does not get is a gap closer that does no damage. In return they get an AOE DOT with a massive damage reduction to incoming AOE attacks. You know, a different kind of utility skill.

In terms of PVE usage, 2H has been way behind DW for a very long time and nerfing its damage further is not okay. The reason is that not only does it make the skill line even more irrelevant in PVE, it doesn't address why it's so ubiquitous in PVP.

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

2H has a recovery passive unlike DW, it has an empower passive, unlike DW. They are 2 very different trees for very different things. It is idiotic to try and make them the same

usmcjdking wrote: »

we're talking about *** light attacks here, not the end game balance discussions of 2h stamplar vs DW stamdk.

Kinda my thoughts on this. Your fighting a loosing battle and the battle may not be worth fighting to begin with

WE DON'T FRIGGIN CARE ABOUT PVP IN PVE. We want 2h to do comparable damage in PVE and seeing as your post history shows a strong dislike to stam builds in pvp you may not want a pve buff for pve that can effect PvP.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

WE DON'T FRIGGIN CARE ABOUT PVP IN PVE. We want 2h to do comparable damage in PVE and seeing as your post history shows a strong dislike to stam builds in pvp you may not want a pve buff for pve that can effect PvP.

A lot of PVPers have this attitude where essentially they care about their pet build alone. They're adamantly against any changes that could improve builds other than their own, even if it's for the greater good of the game.

It's a selfish attitude that negatively affects the game as a whole. That's why numbers, metrics, and data are more important than muh feels.

And the data in this case suggests that 2H is being unfairly put in a bad spot.

As for me, I'll adapt no matter what happens. I'm not shackling myself to a single build or a single weapon type or a single way of playing the game. But at the same time, curtailing weapon and build variety, in this case in PVE, for no good reason, hurts the game, and makes the game worse off as a whole. That's why I'm so strongly in favor of seeing changes here.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

A common theme I've seen in this thread is people repeating the old "DW is for PVE and 2H is for PVP, deal with it" schtick. This idea is a tired, stale meme at this point. It's myopic, counterproductive, and fails to provide any useful discourse.

Why would anyone reasonably want less variety? It's entirely possible for 2H and DW to be viable in all game types while giving them fundamentally different play styles. In fact, we already have multiple examples in the game of skill lines that find viable roles in all content:

1) Sword and Shield
2) Destruction Staves
3) Restoration Staves
4) Bows

All of these are used in PVP and PVE in varying roles and capacities. Even DW, while being used more often in PVE, is still viable in PVP in certain classes, if played with skill.

So, why should DW be restricted to PVE and 2H to PVP? What good does that serve the game? The only people this idea appeals to are those already invested in their particular build, be it in PVE or PVP, and are scared to death of the potential of being outperformed by something different. That attitude only serves to make the game smaller, less dynamic, and less diverse than it could be. And that's a shame.

Stickbow · April 2018

What @Tempestwrath just said.

This thread shows test parses on PTS and compares them to Live - DPS potentially goes up for every weapon group except 2H, primarily because of the buff to LA on all weapons except 2H, which got a nerf.

THAT is the core of the discussion here, and the request to ZOS - please don't nerf 2H light attacks - if anything, please keep them in line with the other things that you have tried to do with the changes to LA/HA in this upcoming release.

Leemado · April 2018

Stickbow wrote: »

What @Tempestwrath just said.

This thread shows test parses on PTS and compares them to Live - DPS potentially goes up for every weapon group except 2H, primarily because of the buff to LA on all weapons except 2H, which got a nerf.

THAT is the core of the discussion here, and the request to ZOS - please don't nerf 2H light attacks - if anything, please keep them in line with the other things that you have tried to do with the changes to LA/HA in this upcoming release.

^^^ this is all we are asking

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Why would you bother playing 2H in PVE if it is gimped so much. Outside of a trial, or unless you’re in a group muttering about low Dps hehehehe. Deal. With. It. Don’t hate because people who enjoy DW in PvE are outperforming you. YOU are not FORCED to use 2H in PVE (like I am forced to in PvP as a StamDK). You CHOOSE to use 2H in PVE. If you’re chosen last on the playground because you’ve got a big sword on your back, YOU chose to be that kid.

Instead of begging ZOS for a buff (or a nerf of DW) roll another toon or choose better gear. I personally wouldn’t vote you out the group if your low dps were an issue. I always abstain hehehehe.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Why would you bother playing 2H in PVE if it is gimped so much. Outside of a trial, or unless you’re in a group muttering about low Dps hehehehe. Deal. With. It. Don’t hate because people who enjoy DW in PvE are outperforming you. YOU are not FORCED to use 2H in PVE (like I am forced to in PvP as a StamDK). You CHOOSE to use 2H in PVE. If you’re chosen last on the playground because you’ve got a big sword on your back, YOU chose to be that kid.

Instead of begging ZOS for a buff (or a nerf of DW) roll another toon or choose better gear. I personally wouldn’t vote you out the group if your low dps were an issue. I always abstain hehehehe.

Okay, so now explain to me why you feel that this being the case is healthy for the game. And thus, explain why you feel we don't have the right to ask for changes to bring 2H up to where it should be.

Until you can do that your post has no merit and does not contribute to this discussion.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

Different people like different parts of the game. "Go PVP" is not a valid answer. It's not up to you to decide what content people prefer to do.

Stickbow · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Why would you bother playing 2H in PVE if it is gimped so much. Outside of a trial, or unless you’re in a group muttering about low Dps hehehehe. Deal. With. It. Don’t hate because people who enjoy DW in PvE are outperforming you. YOU are not FORCED to use 2H in PVE (like I am forced to in PvP as a StamDK). You CHOOSE to use 2H in PVE. If you’re chosen last on the playground because you’ve got a big sword on your back, YOU chose to be that kid.

Instead of begging ZOS for a buff (or a nerf of DW) roll another toon or choose better gear. I personally wouldn’t vote you out the group if your low dps were an issue. I always abstain hehehehe.

Again - no one is asking for a nerf of other skill lines - just do the same for 2H as the others.

Kanar · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

It really gets old ZOS when you keep screwing over pve for this games pointless PvP. Sick of hearing DW is for pve and 2h is for pvp. Play as you want as long as you don't mind playing pve like every other dps toon huh?

Sick of spinning to win, sick of having to slot the same boring ass skills as every other stam dps. Two and half more weeks...

It’s not that DW’s rotation is boring it’s the PVE endgame content. “Stand here. Do this now. Go there.” Content melts. PvP isn’t pointless. It’s actually fun in and of itself, as you’re not fighting the exact same battle over and over again. You’re matching wits with people, not programming.

Some people shy away from PvP because they die so much at first and don’t bother improving.

I highly doubt that you have completed fang lair HM or scalecaller HM. It's typical that PvP players will dismiss PvE with exactly your type of argument, but really those PvP players are incapable of doing the harder PvE content.