Suggestions to Improve Vet Dungeon Finder.

Gallagher563 · April 2018

I would propose that along with CP the dungeon finder should take Undaunted Achievement points into account with weighting on completion of DLC dungeons prior as a possible other factor.

jypcy · April 2018

Hey, I don’t see it happening, but I really like the idea. When you feel ready for one, queue for it specifically/travel in with a group. Once you’ve completed it and it’s no biggie, throw it into the mix for randoms. Should encourage experienced players to queue for randoms more knowing they won’t have to talk through the mechanics on every fight if they get dlc and makes these dungeons seem less impossible than they are now to the person who pugs randoms and winds up with three other puggers who’ve never seen this dlc before.

AlienatedGoat · April 2018

Honestly, I'd be ok with them just making part 2 vets c300 to match the vet DLC level requirements, for the sake of keeping it the same.

Achievements are about as useless as CP in gauging player skill. Anyone can get carried for achievements.

Gallagher563 · April 2018

If you get carried you will still have seen some mechanics.

schattenkind · April 2018

CP 300 you can get without seeing a dungeon from insde once. Would that make it better?

Imho the only valid sign of experience is the undaunted level, because to get this one up, you have to do dungeons. Whether or not carried, you've been there and have at least seen it being done. It sure does not differentiate if there is any vet experience, but for having undaunted on lvl 10 there is a lot of dungeons to be done.
You may still end up with a low CP tank or heal but at least they know the most of the dungeon, even if not all vet specialties.

Maybe a combination of all those mentioned could be best, when determining how to build a group for a special dungeon, I dont know. But I wouldnt like to see only one of those criteria being used, for the reasons given.

Gallagher563 · April 2018

I agree. Completing the same dungeon on normal, completing other vet dungeons CP points should all be factors along with Undaunted levels to help create successful groups.

Gythral · April 2018

What ever changes get (or dont get) made, there'll be more whines, the fix is simple:
remove the group finder

no more problem with the group finder

you all had not thought of this before

Silver_Strider · April 2018

There is no gauge for Player Skill. Far too many times people just don't do mechanics, especially when told exactly what to do that it's hopeless no matter what you do. No one does the pinion or portal mechanic in WGT, no one points out the statues in RoM, no one kills the stone atros in BRF, no one does anything.
Undaunted level doesn't mean jack either since you can level that thru the delve daily as well as clearing every Delve and Public Dungeon in the game. It's slower going but completely possible to do.

My thoughts?
Vet mode should be locked entirely until the normal version of that dungeon has been completed, full stop. Can't exactly be called a vet if you are a 100% novice to the dungeon itself and while it will be annoying to have to run every dungeon on normal mode when you're a vet player on an alt toon, it's not as though you can't use the skill point for completing the dungeon quest for something. Another thing they need to do is buff up Normal Mode. Dungeon mechanics need to be emphasized on normal so that people get a good feel for them and know what to watch for going into vet because far too often people just burn thru normal without any knowledge of mechanics going into vet that it makes any value Normal Mode might have had and spits in its face.

I'm sure that plenty of people would be against such changes but I feel they'd more beneficial in the long run.

Gallagher563 · April 2018

I would be fine with locking vet until you complete normal just make it account wide. Only issue I see is that might really favor older dungeons in random dungeon finder.

VaxtinTheWolf · April 2018

Some games require you to clear each level of difficulty to unlock the next with having "Solo and Normal unlocked by default, Then opening up to Hard and then Expert. Other games I've played have you complete normal 3 times and then allow you to proceed to the next rank, or something to that effect. Although, this isn't so much a suggestion as is just something that I've seen in other MMO's.

DoctorESO · April 2018

Gallagher563 wrote: »

I would propose that along with CP the dungeon finder should take Undaunted Achievement points into account with weighting on completion of DLC dungeons prior as a possible other factor.

Too many separators will cause long and even infinite queue times.

Thorstienn · April 2018

I agree with above... vet should require at least normal completion of said dungeon. CP and undaunted is iŕrelevant for the non-DLC. The bigger issue.. there is no REAL benefit to do Vet, therefore max CP peeps will jump into norm and smash through it, not letting lowbies learn.

Iselin · April 2018

I would a personality profile test requirement.

The first question should be: "Are you a misanthrope?"

Adernath · April 2018

The problem is that they increase the cp experience curves whenever they increase the cp cap. This means that we will see more and more total noobs having cp 300+. This means that cp 300+ is by far a reliable prerequisite.

Just yesterday I encountered two DDs in nROM on my healer alt, both having cp 300+. The entire group did 10k dps while I contributed to around 40% of it... the sorcerer was spamming crystal frags while the other person had a 2h-weapon spamming heavy attacks.

In my opinion there has to be:

1) No adjustment of the XP leveling curve whenever the cap is increased. We already have catch-up mechanics, that should be sufficient. Only if the XP curve stays as it is, a cp requirement makes sense.

2) Veteran dungeon content should be locked unless all of the following requirements have been made:

Along with point 1) a reasonable cp requirement.
The normal dungeon version has been completed.
Part 1 of the dungeon has been completed, if there exist a part 1.
Reasonable Anti-carry-mechanism: At least one of the following three achievements have been made in the normal version of the dungeon:
1. You have blocked the most damage
2. You have healed the most
3. You have dealt the most damage

All this should go along with a small buff of the normal dungeons in accordance with the actual XP curve so that people actually learn at least a bit of the mechanics. The anti-carry-mechanism is there because usually cp 720 are pulling out the most damage, taunting the boss and adds (therefore also blocking the most, if at all) and usually have sufficient self-heal.

schattenkind · April 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

[...]No one does the pinion or portal mechanic in WGT, no one points out the statues in RoM, no one kills the stone atros in BRF, no one does anything.

I love that... can we just agree, that some or many do not instead of all?
It is idd very annoying having those ppl in the group, who ignore every mechanic which is not essentially needed.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Undaunted level doesn't mean jack either since you can level that thru the delve daily as well as clearing every Delve and Public Dungeon in the game. It's slower going but completely possible to do.

That is true, but not everyone levels undaunted with the daily delve and public dungeons dont level undaunted, afaik.
Sure it is not the best to measure on, but I would say the most level undaunted by doing dailies and therefore it is a bit more accurate than just CP or just achievements.
What I didnt mention is, that it should count account wide, so you were not put back when you start a new toon having this experience already, but not the level on this specific character.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

My thoughts?
Vet mode should be locked entirely until the normal version of that dungeon has been completed, full stop. Can't exactly be called a vet if you are a 100% novice to the dungeon itself and while it will be annoying to have to run every dungeon on normal mode when you're a vet player on an alt toon, it's not as though you can't use the skill point for completing the dungeon quest for something.

Here I agree, good idea.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Another thing they need to do is buff up Normal Mode.Dungeon mechanics need to be emphasized on normal so that people get a good feel for them and know what to watch for going into vet because far too often people just burn thru normal without any knowledge of mechanics going into vet that it makes any value Normal Mode might have had and spits in its face.
[...]

Here I dont agree. I dont know if you remember doing those dungeons the very first time being a level 16 with no CP and no experience - I do. It is hard enough to get thgrouh alive, when the group is even and not having some high-level ppl in it or someone who did it already, which happens. I had a hard time starting with dungeons and I dont forget the first time I was in spindle I normal, where after the first miniboss (forgot name) everybody thought, that was it, because we fought like 10 minutes on him, but it came out to be just the beginning...

We may not only see the side of experienced players, but also the side of new players: For them, if there is one or more high-level guys in the group (normal level dungeon), it is all running after them, so many things happening so fast, most are not talking nor explaining, just going full speed. (Tbh, that is something you get used to after a long time playing, I catch myself often doing the exact same...) If they have a low group, it is hard enough, they lack knowledge about the game itself, mechanics, buffs, playstyles and combat tactics, they have to learn when and how to block, when to dodge, about shields and all that stuff, which we - experienced players - know. They also lack dps and survivalibility (if there even is such a word...), which makes it even more harder.

So, I think, for new players with no experience normal is hard enough. And since they can join those dungeons, as the system allows them to with reaching lvl 15 (or was it 20?), it should be adapted to that lack of knowledge and skills - which is now.

Thorstienn wrote: »

I agree with above... vet should require at least normal completion of said dungeon. CP and undaunted is iŕrelevant for the non-DLC. The bigger issue.. there is no REAL benefit to do Vet, therefore max CP peeps will jump into norm and smash through it, not letting lowbies learn.

I agree on the vet-part: There is no real reason for going vet, if youre not doing HM. Until the next update you needed vet for purple jewelery - that will fall mostly, as you can upgrade jewelery as you wish (given that you have the required crafting skills). In some DLC you still need vet for the monster mask tho. But the 2 undaunted keys you only get for HM, for vet and normal only 1 - that should be adapted to normal:1, vet:2, HM:3, imho, to give vet without HM more reason to exist (since HM only applies to last boss, I dont see the dungeon itself being harder as vet already is).
(I didnt mention achievements at all, because I'm not an achievement guy, but they count in too ofc.)

So, a lot of (experienced) players who just need the keys or level undaunted, do dailies on normal, as you can finish the most in 20 minutes max (all 3) no matter what the group is like and then go with another toon again. Is a lot faster than going vet HM where the group becomes more important and often ends in ppl leaving, kicking, dying constantly, whatever and taking 20 mins to finish just one. With 5 toons you get 15 keys in aprox 1,5 hours. Going vet with HM you could end up with half of that.

Taking all that into count, there should be not only a better group forming calculation with whatever of above factors considered, but also rewards that attract players to do certain type/difficulty of dungeon. If vet was giving 2 keys, a lot of experienced players who run through normal would certainly go vet and less would power through normal having newbies running behind, not able to learn anything from that. The level progress for undaunted should be doubled for vet, too. Just leveling undaunted I always go normal, as it goes faster and gives same amount of progress.
For HM I personally would like more than just the last boss fight being harder. Besides of that it should either go with 3 keys, or 2 keys as is and in addition something special. End game players run vet hm either way, but for those between new and mid/high level it would be more rewarding.

But, as said above, making the group calculation more accurate will result in longer waiting in queue. This will especially hit those players, who dont or cant play at evenings/weekends when player count is high.
So changes would be good and bad at the same time.

Silver_Strider · April 2018

schattenkind wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

[...]No one does the pinion or portal mechanic in WGT, no one points out the statues in RoM, no one kills the stone atros in BRF, no one does anything.

I love that... can we just agree, that some or many do not instead of all?
It is idd very annoying having those ppl in the group, who ignore every mechanic which is not essentially needed.

It's an over exaggeration but honestly, it feels like that more often than not. It's a rare day when a PUG actually does the mechanics.

schattenkind wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Undaunted level doesn't mean jack either since you can level that thru the delve daily as well as clearing every Delve and Public Dungeon in the game. It's slower going but completely possible to do.

That is true, but not everyone levels undaunted with the daily delve and public dungeons dont level undaunted, afaik.
Sure it is not the best to measure on, but I would say the most level undaunted by doing dailies and therefore it is a bit more accurate than just CP or just achievements.
What I didnt mention is, that it should count account wide, so you were not put back when you start a new toon having this experience already, but not the level on this specific character.

The achievements associated with clearing a Delve, killing the Public Dungeon bosses, etc. all count towards Undaunted XP. Granted, it isn't a whole lot of XP but its there.

schattenkind wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Another thing they need to do is buff up Normal Mode.Dungeon mechanics need to be emphasized on normal so that people get a good feel for them and know what to watch for going into vet because far too often people just burn thru normal without any knowledge of mechanics going into vet that it makes any value Normal Mode might have had and spits in its face.
[...]

Here I dont agree. I dont know if you remember doing those dungeons the very first time being a level 16 with no CP and no experience - I do. It is hard enough to get throuh alive, when the group is even and not having some high-level ppl in it or someone who did it already, which happens. I had a hard time starting with dungeons and I dont forget the first time I was in spindle I normal, where after the first miniboss (forgot name) everybody thought, that was it, because we fought like 10 minutes on him, but it came out to be just the beginning...

We may not only see the side of experienced players, but also the side of new players: For them, if there is one or more high-level guys in the group (normal level dungeon), it is all running after them, so many things happening so fast, most are not talking nor explaining, just going full speed. (Tbh, that is something you get used to after a long time playing, I catch myself often doing the exact same...) If they have a low group, it is hard enough, they lack knowledge about the game itself, mechanics, buffs, playstyles and combat tactics, they have to learn when and how to block, when to dodge, about shields and all that stuff, which we - experienced players - know. They also lack dps and survivalibility (if there even is such a word...), which makes it even more harder.

So, I think, for new players with no experience normal is hard enough. And since they can join those dungeons, as the system allows them to with reaching lvl 15 (or was it 20?), it should be adapted to that lack of knowledge and skills - which is now.

I remember those times; Fungal Grotto normal as a NB healer back when NB healers were awful. We could actually die.
Now though, I can't even imagine a group of players dying in any base game normal dungeon unless they're completely brain dead.

schattenkind · April 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

[...]

schattenkind wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Undaunted level doesn't mean jack either since you can level that thru the delve daily as well as clearing every Delve and Public Dungeon in the game. It's slower going but completely possible to do.

That is true, but not everyone levels undaunted with the daily delve and public dungeons dont level undaunted, afaik.
Sure it is not the best to measure on, but I would say the most level undaunted by doing dailies and therefore it is a bit more accurate than just CP or just achievements.
What I didnt mention is, that it should count account wide, so you were not put back when you start a new toon having this experience already, but not the level on this specific character.

The achievements associated with clearing a Delve, killing the Public Dungeon bosses, etc. all count towards Undaunted XP. Granted, it isn't a whole lot of XP but its there.

I must have missed something, since I get a notification every time I get undaunted XP and that does occur only by turning in dailies or finishing a group dungeon for the very first time. And I tried a lot to speed up the undaunted grind. All players I asked about this said, that only finishing the undaunted dailies will progress the level - and that exactly is, what my experience is.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

schattenkind wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Another thing they need to do is buff up Normal Mode.Dungeon mechanics need to be emphasized on normal so that people get a good feel for them and know what to watch for going into vet because far too often people just burn thru normal without any knowledge of mechanics going into vet that it makes any value Normal Mode might have had and spits in its face.
[...]

Here I dont agree. I dont know if you remember doing those dungeons the very first time being a level 16 with no CP and no experience - I do. It is hard enough to get throuh alive, when the group is even and not having some high-level ppl in it or someone who did it already, which happens. I had a hard time starting with dungeons and I dont forget the first time I was in spindle I normal, where after the first miniboss (forgot name) everybody thought, that was it, because we fought like 10 minutes on him, but it came out to be just the beginning...

We may not only see the side of experienced players, but also the side of new players: For them, if there is one or more high-level guys in the group (normal level dungeon), it is all running after them, so many things happening so fast, most are not talking nor explaining, just going full speed. (Tbh, that is something you get used to after a long time playing, I catch myself often doing the exact same...) If they have a low group, it is hard enough, they lack knowledge about the game itself, mechanics, buffs, playstyles and combat tactics, they have to learn when and how to block, when to dodge, about shields and all that stuff, which we - experienced players - know. They also lack dps and survivalibility (if there even is such a word...), which makes it even more harder.

So, I think, for new players with no experience normal is hard enough. And since they can join those dungeons, as the system allows them to with reaching lvl 15 (or was it 20?), it should be adapted to that lack of knowledge and skills - which is now.

I remember those times; Fungal Grotto normal as a NB healer back when NB healers were awful. We could actually die.
Now though, I can't even imagine a group of players dying in any base game normal dungeon unless they're completely brain dead.

That's what I ment: as experienced players we hardly can determine, how hard it really is for new ones - thus should not ask to get them more difficult. Thinking of our very first group dungeon might help. I had no luck to find myself with an experienced tank/healer for the first few and we had to bleed a lot while learning.

starkerealm · April 2018

Phage wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be ok with them just making part 2 vets c300 to match the vet DLC level requirements, for the sake of keeping it the same.

Achievements are about as useless as CP in gauging player skill. Anyone can get carried for achievements.

The IIs could probably be 160. There's a big difference between vBF or vCoS, and vDS2 or vCoH2.

I mean, at the extreme end there could be a full priority unlock setup with the vet dungeons, like we have with normal, where the Is unlock from 10 to 160, with the IIs unlocking from 160-200 or 240, then unlocking the DLCs at 300.

While I've never... well, frankly, I've never been at CR10-159, I started at 160 because I had a v16, from what I've seen in groups a random vet clear should unlock a dungeon or two for the newbies, even if stuff did have an unlock sequence.

Temeraire507 · April 2018

The ideas mentioned here sound quite interesting. The problem I see is that this system will reduce new players abilities to farm good gear even more and therefore make it even harder for them to get on a level with old players.

schattenkind wrote: »

So, I think, for new players with no experience normal is hard enough. And since they can join those dungeons, as the system allows them to with reaching lvl 15 (or was it 20?), it should be adapted to that lack of knowledge and skills - which is now.

The Dungeon Finder actually activates at level 10.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I remember those times; Fungal Grotto normal as a NB healer back when NB healers were awful. We could actually die.
Now though, I can't even imagine a group of players dying in any base game normal dungeon unless they're completely brain dead.

I've seen enough newer players in dungeons on my new alts recently to tell you that it somehow still happens.

schattenkind · April 2018

Farming gear is an argument, but you should not go farm gear in a dungeon, that you cant do - or, if so, bring others to help you. I dont know if any player below cp160 would seriously farm gear at all and being cp160 you already should have some (at least basic) game experience, which does not imply dungeon experience tho.

For farming I never used the dungeon finder tbh but tried to get a group via friends, guilds or zones. It sure is an option going dungeon finder, when the desired dungeon is on the dailies but thats a small amount of farmers I guess.

Temeraire507 · April 2018

schattenkind wrote: »

Farming gear is an argument, but you should not go farm gear in a dungeon, that you cant do - or, if so, bring others to help you. I dont know if any player below cp160 would seriously farm gear at all and being cp160 you already should have some (at least basic) game experience, which does not imply dungeon experience tho.

For farming I never used the dungeon finder tbh but tried to get a group via friends, guilds or zones. It sure is an option going dungeon finder, when the desired dungeon is on the dailies but thats a small amount of farmers I guess.

Same here, I just know some people did use the dungeon finder.

VaxtinTheWolf · April 2018

I've been attempting Veteran White Gold Tower runs on my Sorcerer Tank before my ESO+ trial runs out. At some point in the past day or two I got placed into a group with Champion ranks of 185, 278, 306 and myself at 720. I explained all the mechanics of the Inhibitor boss clearly and how to handle them and it was downed on the first try. The final boss had the most problems but they got through that as well for a full clear of the dungeon.

It really helps if you are playing with competent players that have acceptable builds, a willingness to listen, and actually follow directions.

Darrett · April 2018

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I remember those times; Fungal Grotto normal as a NB healer back when NB healers were awful. We could actually die.
Now though, I can't even imagine a group of players dying in any base game normal dungeon unless they're completely brain dead.

I've seen enough newer players in dungeons on my new alts recently to tell you that it somehow still happens.

It “somehow” still happens because they’re learning the mechanics and deal significantly less damage with less health than you’re used to. Your view of the situation is skewed by having knowledge of what to do at what point and having a high CP level as well as knowing optimal morphs and builds.

New players are picking skills based on what seems cool, they have stats placed all over the place on what they perceive as effective while leveling (“Seems like I run out of stamina a lot, better put some points there”), and are trying to learn mechanics without anyone to talk them through it, as most veteran players just start running top speed and then complain if someone doesn’t know what to do.

They’re doing this is gear and with setups that work fine for leveling up, dealing 4-6k DPS -with- weaving.

New players are told not to participate in dungeons until they’re CP 300+ and do 40k DPS. Is it any wonder they don’t know how?

Temeraire507 · April 2018

Darrett wrote: »

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I remember those times; Fungal Grotto normal as a NB healer back when NB healers were awful. We could actually die.
Now though, I can't even imagine a group of players dying in any base game normal dungeon unless they're completely brain dead.

I've seen enough newer players in dungeons on my new alts recently to tell you that it somehow still happens.

It “somehow” still happens because they’re learning the mechanics and deal significantly less damage with less health than you’re used to. Your view of the situation is skewed by having knowledge of what to do at what point and having a high CP level as well as knowing optimal morphs and builds.

New players are picking skills based on what seems cool, they have stats placed all over the place on what they perceive as effective while leveling (“Seems like I run out of stamina a lot, better put some points there”), and are trying to learn mechanics without anyone to talk them through it, as most veteran players just start running top speed and then complain if someone doesn’t know what to do.

They’re doing this is gear and with setups that work fine for leveling up, dealing 4-6k DPS -with- weaving.

New players are told not to participate in dungeons until they’re CP 300+ and do 40k DPS. Is it any wonder they don’t know how?

No it isn't. That is actually what I was thinking of when I admitted that it would hinder them from getting gear.

Nightfall12 · April 2018

I think the problem comes from the huge gap in skill required to go from normal to vet. Normal dungeons you can make all sorts of mistakes and get through. And lets be honest you can burn through some bosses before you even see the mechanics, so these runs don't even prepare you for the vet version. The tightly linked rewards to the challenge while it makes sense creates a problem. How many times have you seen a Vet Pug that has shown cracks in effiecency still read the scroll of Glorious bickering to follow?

You end up with Tanks that can stand in stupid and survive, but can't contribute anything else….they need great DPS to get them through all the content, and they act indignant if your DPS is below what they deem correct. And God forbid you ask them to adjust the tactic they are using. LIke they are so sure of their own survivability or hey have been lucky to have super DPS before that they set the boss fight up in a bad spot, (I'm looking at you BC1, get the boss away from where the orbs spawn so DPs have a chance to kill those) Then don't get me started on tanks that get bitter cuz you ask them to change tactics, so instead they just perm block and stop taunting.

You get DPS who don't do anything to try and stay alive, but stand right in stupid to keep attacking and berate the healer cuz they aren't healing enough. Or BAD dos that only spam the same attack over and over (Steel tornado every move every fight) Or executes to open with. Now maybe that DPS thinks this works cuz it does on normal, or because there is another DPS in another Dungeon carrying the load.

You get healers that just haven't figured out how to work in a bad team because they have been on great ones where they are actually expected to contribute more than pretty light shows. So they have GASP attacks and debuffs on their bars, but because others are standing in stupid they get accused of trying to dos too much and not spam heal.

Finally the Addons that track everyone else's performance….OMG why is it that only BAD players are vocal about these and broadcasting others numbers? Hey if you are so high and mighty awesome shut up about get the dungeon done and move on, But you can't because all too often you are expecting high numbers to carry you.

So why i know many will disagree. I think they need to do 1 of 2 things. Either A: increase the difficulty of normal to force you to learn the mechanics, while increasing the quality of rewards. So not as many are funneled into content they have no chance at. Or B: add the third tier of dungeon, keep normal as is add a mid one close to current vet but slightly more forgiving on the wipe spot mechanics, Keep the vast majority of reward drops ( Gear) from Vet here and then add a third tier which is even harder and put the achievements in this tier( and thus the highest rewards like the skins and such). It should keep the number lovers happy that they have even harder stuff to trey, and ease the PUG nitemares.

schattenkind · April 2018

Nightfall12 wrote: »

I think the problem comes from the huge gap in skill required to go from normal to vet. Normal dungeons you can make all sorts of mistakes and get through. And lets be honest you can burn through some bosses before you even see the mechanics, so these runs don't even prepare you for the vet version.[...]

Really? You think totaly new players, with no experience, no gear, no skill and no cp, can burn through some bosses?
Maybe it was just me then, because I had a hard time at the beginning and it was challenging. But overall I doubt that honestly... Too bad there is no possibility to find out afterwards, since even when you had a brand new character with no cp ready to go, you still had the knowledge and experience...

Nightfall12 wrote: »

So why i know many will disagree. I think they need to do 1 of 2 things. Either A: increase the difficulty of normal to force you to learn the mechanics, while increasing the quality of rewards. So not as many are funneled into content they have no chance at. Or B: add the third tier of dungeon, keep normal as is add a mid one close to current vet but slightly more forgiving on the wipe spot mechanics, Keep the vast majority of reward drops ( Gear) from Vet here and then add a third tier which is even harder and put the achievements in this tier( and thus the highest rewards like the skins and such). It should keep the number lovers happy that they have even harder stuff to trey, and ease the PUG nitemares.

My vote would be for B, puting it to a level of HM, not boss only, but entire dungeon.

Nightfall12 · April 2018

schattenkind wrote: »

Nightfall12 wrote: »

I think the problem comes from the huge gap in skill required to go from normal to vet. Normal dungeons you can make all sorts of mistakes and get through. And lets be honest you can burn through some bosses before you even see the mechanics, so these runs don't even prepare you for the vet version.[...]

Really? You think totaly new players, with no experience, no gear, no skill and no cp, can burn through some bosses?
Maybe it was just me then, because I had a hard time at the beginning and it was challenging. But overall I doubt that honestly... Too bad there is no possibility to find out afterwards, since even when you had a brand new character with no cp ready to go, you still had the knowledge and experience...

No what i mean is with the current set up, i have been in normal runs where you get Vet lvl players that just don't want to hassle with VET pug dungeon finder, and so the Team burns through it quickly. For those new players that don't have the gear and skill points they don't see the dungeon for what it really is. Seriously i have encountered people that can solo normal using Dungeon finder to run through for equipment drops. especially when they are looking for weapons that only drop towards the end of the dungeon. I hope that clarifies. what i meant

schattenkind · April 2018

Nightfall12 wrote: »

schattenkind wrote: »

Nightfall12 wrote: »

I think the problem comes from the huge gap in skill required to go from normal to vet. Normal dungeons you can make all sorts of mistakes and get through. And lets be honest you can burn through some bosses before you even see the mechanics, so these runs don't even prepare you for the vet version.[...]

Really? You think totaly new players, with no experience, no gear, no skill and no cp, can burn through some bosses?
Maybe it was just me then, because I had a hard time at the beginning and it was challenging. But overall I doubt that honestly... Too bad there is no possibility to find out afterwards, since even when you had a brand new character with no cp ready to go, you still had the knowledge and experience...

No what i mean is with the current set up, i have been in normal runs where you get Vet lvl players that just don't want to hassle with VET pug dungeon finder, and so the Team burns through it quickly. For those new players that don't have the gear and skill points they don't see the dungeon for what it really is. Seriously i have encountered people that can solo normal using Dungeon finder to run through for equipment drops. especially when they are looking for weapons that only drop towards the end of the dungeon. I hope that clarifies. what i meant

Clear now. It is nothing special that vet lvl players can solo normal, I do to, at least those where no mechanic requires more than one player. But going for items there is no point in using dungeon finder for normal, as it mostly ends up with the other players not being cp160 and that items they get are more or less useless. Since then I only can use items I get by myself, I go solo and end up being quicker or go vet, havin at least a bigger chance to have some guys above cp160 in the group (or, best solution, premade group).