Stone Fist/Stone giant morph should be physical, stamdks need some love

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

Not only just because logic, its stone, also because Stamdks dps are in a really bad spot and have barely any use for earthen heart skill line, which is the main ulti generator for the class. Also they lack a spammable and this is just the perfect solution for a lot of the Stamdk's problems.

Also this won't go near lava whip where both morphs are needed for magdk dps.

Magika Dk already has so much skills to utilize, give stam Dks something

FlyLionel · April 2018

Id a like a class cc as well. Reverb is a great cc though and dizzying is good open world cc, don't think cc is a major issue here though. Igneous shield is what stam dk keeps up for minor brutality/ulti passives and next patch op extended healing so you saying barely any use is not true. Dk has on demand major mending from that tree which no class has. If anything is op its that skill line(passives) and that skill.

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

FlyLionel wrote: »

Id a like a class cc as well. Reverb is a great cc though and dizzying is good open world cc, don't think cc is a major issue here though. Igneous shield is what stam dk keeps up for minor brutality/ulti passives and next patch op extended healing so you saying barely any use is not true. Dk has on demand major mending from that tree which no class has. If anything is op its that skill line(passives) and that skill.

Igneous shields have very high magika cost and you def will not use every 6 sec for ulti gen, not to mention the shielding and major mending is barely any use for a dps, people use it because it is the cheapest (though still very expensive) earthen heart ability that can be used.

Maybe for Tank/healer even magika dps it can be useful but for stamdk its used because there is no other option

Nemesis7884 · April 2018

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Not only just because logic, its stone, also because Stamdks dps are in a really bad spot and have barely any use for earthen heart skill line, which is the main ulti generator for the class. Also they lack a spammable and this is just the perfect solution for a lot of the Stamdk's problems.

Also this won't go near lava whip where both morphs are needed for magdk dps.

Magika Dk already has so much skills to utilize, give stam Dks something

It is kinda weird regarding this is such a physical ability

RaddlemanNumber7 · April 2018

My Poison Knight uses Stone Giant to trigger Swamp Raider. I do not want it changed to a stam / physical ability.

To save you looking it up:

Swamp Raider: 5 items: When you deal damage with a Magicka ability, your Poison and Disease Damage abilities gain an additional 5-450 Weapon Damage for 10 seconds.

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

My Poison Knight uses Stone Giant to trigger Swamp Raider. I do not want it changed to a stam / physical ability.

To save you looking it up:

Swamp Raider: 5 items: When you deal damage with a Magicka ability, your Poison and Disease Damage abilities gain an additional 5-450 Weapon Damage for 10 seconds.

This is just one extremely rare build that can be activated by lava whip too or even the other morph of stonefist which heals as well so more useful, we are talking about the capability of an entire class here.

Also Stam dks use a lot of physical damage skills too you lose a lot of damage on them by using this 5 piece set

MasterLenman · April 2018

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

My Poison Knight uses Stone Giant to trigger Swamp Raider. I do not want it changed to a stam / physical ability.

To save you looking it up:

Swamp Raider: 5 items: When you deal damage with a Magicka ability, your Poison and Disease Damage abilities gain an additional 5-450 Weapon Damage for 10 seconds.

I tried this set in the past, and Flames of Oblivion (Inferno Morph) was my favorite way to trigger it.

MaleAmazon · April 2018

You dont have to use ONLY stamina skills on a stamina build.

Like said it triggers swamp raider, makes for some more choice, and it´s primarily a CC, not a damage skill. Also magicka dumps are not useless. If you are low on stamina you can run around in PvP spamming this and make yourself useful while it regenerates.

Mettaricana · April 2018

Plz give us stam stone giant and please make the other whip morph stamina poison... an acid whip sounds boss af

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

I wouldn't care if ZOS gave StamDKs Stone Giant as a stamina morph that does physical damage...

...as long as they give Obsidian Shard flame damage and make it an execute.

That way, StamDKs get their spammable and MagDKs get their execute. Win/win.

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

huschdeguddzje · April 2018

All stam classes need some love.
Stamdk has not enough stam morphs I agree, but he still has probably the most.

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I wouldn't care if ZOS gave StamDKs Stone Giant as a stamina morph that does physical damage...

...as long as they give Obsidian Shard flame damage and make it an execute.

That way, StamDKs get their spammable and MagDKs get their execute. Win/win.

obsidian shard was just recently adjusted to be more of a healing skill don't think it can be changed anytime soon to be an execute.

Also they stated that dks are not meant to have an execute, they rely on heavy dots

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Since it is one of the worst magdk skills there is no problem gving it a stamina morph, also it can be adjusted, maybe remove stun and give it extra damage. The helping hands is not an issue it costs around 3.2k and restores 1k, its cost can be increased to make up for it.

All the details is not thwle issue, it is the general idea, it would be the perfect skill for a stamdk for many reasons.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Abysswarrior45 · April 2018

No. Stam whip is needed. You can pump out 35k self buffed dps on mag dk without molten whip currently. Not the greatest, but if you want the best magic dps you'd be playing magblade. Stonefist is trash and will definitely be trash when you consider every time its used it'd be giving back stam so they'd handicap the skill or make it really expensive.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

Anti_Virus · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Dk class is a melee based class.

Making this a stamina ranged spammable is counter intuitive to the play style. I get it as a bow user you would love this skill to be a ranged spammable but I don't think the DK class should encourage that type of play.

If you want to play effectively with a bow play stam warden, It needs some work but it's the best class to play an archer with.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Dk class is a melee based class.

Making this a stamina ranged spammable is counter intuitive to the play style. I get it as a bow user you would love this skill to be a ranged spammable but I don't think the DK class should encourage that type of play.

If you want to play effectively with a bow play stam warden, It needs some work but it's the best class to play an archer with.

No the DK is a class, being "melee" based is an illusion you have become attached to because of the way you play. I guess Sorcs are also melee based because Stam sorcs only have Hurricane? Or Nightblades since they have a melee execute, melee spammabe, melee AOE they are also a melee based class? Templars are so stand you ground that they obviously need to remove Javelin and Power of the Light, and thats only looking at stamina they have far more ranged morphs for magicka.

Wardens aren't "ranged" based. Wardens have ONE ranged spammable for stam, that doesn't make them the ranged class. Further more I already play very very effectively with the bow in both PVE and PVP with the DK.

Kodrac · April 2018

If it's not going to be flame damage then it should be physical. Get out with this magic damage stuff.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Literally all you care about is your niche ''archer Dk'' build, which nobody else cares for. Cost reduction is a thing, Earthen heart abilities have stamina return because they all are intended to be utility abilities that cost magicka.

There is no room for a dot or spammable in earthern heart tree, but you don't want to accept this fact because you are obsessed with the idea of playing everything as an archer, even if it fits the class or not.

If you want to play as a bow/bow build, go make a warden or stamblade. Dk was always and always a melee brawler class.
Stop trying to murder the tiny bit of brawler identity left in this class.

''stonefist 41m spammable, cus muh Dk identity'' makes absolutely no friggen sense.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

As to those who just cannot stand DK's having any ranged skills, there is no reason that Stone Fist remain a ranged skill. It could just as easily become a melee skill. What it would give you is more uptime on the ultimate return from Mountains Blessing, which I know for a fact is currently either completely not utilized or has terrible uptime on every stam build outside of tanks.

If you are using Molten Armaments you are getting 3 more ult every 30 seconds, which is 1/5 the maximum limit dictated by the cool down. If you are using Igneous Shield you are likely getting 1/5 to 2/5 of maximum uptime.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Bigevilpeter
Nah we need to get rid of it and if they do not change helping hands well it's time to remove that passive too and change it into something more beneficial.
I really want them to get rid of stone fist and make it into a new skill while at the same time making fragmented shield into a new skill that is offensive + giving igneous shield it's major mending duration back so Mag Dk healers can have a higher up time which = less mag cost.

Helping hands could be: When using an Earthen heart skill recover X stam + Mag, this has a cool down of X seconds. When using an earthen heart ultimate recover X Stam + Mag.
Or
When using an Earthen Heart skill increase physical and spell resistance by X amount, this has a cool down of X seconds. When using an earthen heart ultimate, increase physical and spell resistance + recover X Stam + Mag.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Literally all you care about is your niche ''archer Dk'' build, which nobody else cares for. Cost reduction is a thing, Earthen heart abilities have stamina return because they all are intended to be utility abilities that cost magicka.

There is no room for a dot or spammable in earthern heart tree, but you don't want to accept this fact because you are obsessed with the idea of playing everything as an archer, even if it fits the class or not.

If you want to play as a bow/bow build, go make a warden or stamblade. Dk was always and always a melee brawler class.
Stop trying to murder the tiny bit of brawler identity left in this class.

''stonefist 41m spammable, cus muh Dk identity'' makes absolutely no friggen sense.

You literally are blinded by your own emotions.

No DK spammable is going to give me 25% more damage from Hawkeye stacks, 12% more weapon damage with range, Major defile, delayed burst.<<<< All of which I get from Snipe, all of which depend on using bow skills. No DK stun is going to give me a 9.6k tooltip base heal in PVP, much less the 12k+ crit heals that I actually get in combat from Draining Shot.

I would get virtually nothing out of a DK spammable, it would be a filler at most. Crushing Weapons is better because I can line it up with Snipe burst and gives me additional healing.

At no point have I made an argument from MY perspective. At no point have I made an argument for what would benefit MY builds the most. Open your dang eyes.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Literally all you care about is your niche ''archer Dk'' build, which nobody else cares for. Cost reduction is a thing, Earthen heart abilities have stamina return because they all are intended to be utility abilities that cost magicka.

There is no room for a dot or spammable in earthern heart tree, but you don't want to accept this fact because you are obsessed with the idea of playing everything as an archer, even if it fits the class or not.

If you want to play as a bow/bow build, go make a warden or stamblade. Dk was always and always a melee brawler class.
Stop trying to murder the tiny bit of brawler identity left in this class.

''stonefist 41m spammable, cus muh Dk identity'' makes absolutely no friggen sense.

You literally are blinded by your own emotions.

No DK spammable is going to give me 25% more damage from Hawkeye stacks, 12% more weapon damage with range, Major defile, delayed burst.<<<< All of which I get from Snipe, all of which depend on using bow skills. No DK stun is going to give me a 9.6k tooltip base heal in PVP, much less the 12k+ crit heals that I actually get in combat from Draining Shot.

I would get virtually nothing out of a DK spammable, it would be a filler at most. Crushing Weapons is better because I can line it up with Snipe burst and gives me additional healing.

At no point have I made an argument from MY perspective. At no point have I made an argument for what would benefit MY builds the most. Open your dang eyes.

AM I ? really. The way I think is very simple.

Earthen heart is the earth magic skill line of DK, with passives to help with sustain, it makes sense, it has a theme. ''As durable as earth itself''. A spammable in this tree makes absolutely no sense to me.

The ''dragon'' part of Dragon Knight comes from ''draconic power''. It literally explains itself.

Meanwhile ardent flame is all about flames and poison. If a spammable is going to happen, I think it is obvious which skill line is more suited for it. The passives also make it more obvious. Ardent flame passives are all outdated and ancient, but they are all about damage output.

I don't think I need to explain this further. I would love for any class to have more abilities, but I'm against bad ideas. and stamina stonefist, is a bad idea. Either as a CC or as a spammable. Maaaaaybe as a delayed burst CC/damage ability it could potentially work.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Literally all you care about is your niche ''archer Dk'' build, which nobody else cares for. Cost reduction is a thing, Earthen heart abilities have stamina return because they all are intended to be utility abilities that cost magicka.

There is no room for a dot or spammable in earthern heart tree, but you don't want to accept this fact because you are obsessed with the idea of playing everything as an archer, even if it fits the class or not.

If you want to play as a bow/bow build, go make a warden or stamblade. Dk was always and always a melee brawler class.
Stop trying to murder the tiny bit of brawler identity left in this class.

''stonefist 41m spammable, cus muh Dk identity'' makes absolutely no friggen sense.

You literally are blinded by your own emotions.

No DK spammable is going to give me 25% more damage from Hawkeye stacks, 12% more weapon damage with range, Major defile, delayed burst.<<<< All of which I get from Snipe, all of which depend on using bow skills. No DK stun is going to give me a 9.6k tooltip base heal in PVP, much less the 12k+ crit heals that I actually get in combat from Draining Shot.

I would get virtually nothing out of a DK spammable, it would be a filler at most. Crushing Weapons is better because I can line it up with Snipe burst and gives me additional healing.

At no point have I made an argument from MY perspective. At no point have I made an argument for what would benefit MY builds the most. Open your dang eyes.

AM I ? really. The way I think is very simple.

Earthen heart is the earth magic skill line of DK, with passives to help with sustain, it makes sense, it has a theme. ''As durable as earth''. A spammable in this tree makes absolutely no sense to me. Meanwhile ardent flame is all about flames and poison. If a spammable is going to happen, I think it is obvious which skill line is more suited for it.

I don't think I need to explain this further.

That is a fine argument from a personal perspective. However that isn't the argument you made, the argument you made was that it would have to cost too much which I proved was not the case. Then you claimed that my argument was self motivated, which again I have shown is not the case.

The argument being made by the poster is that stam DK's lack a spammable, which they do. That stam DK's barely utilize the EH or its passives, which they don't. And that Stonefist is an under utilized skill which could be changed, which it is.

If you think it shouldn't be changed because you would rather deal damage from Fire primarily that is all great and dandy, but that isn't the argument you made.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Literally all you care about is your niche ''archer Dk'' build, which nobody else cares for. Cost reduction is a thing, Earthen heart abilities have stamina return because they all are intended to be utility abilities that cost magicka.

There is no room for a dot or spammable in earthern heart tree, but you don't want to accept this fact because you are obsessed with the idea of playing everything as an archer, even if it fits the class or not.

If you want to play as a bow/bow build, go make a warden or stamblade. Dk was always and always a melee brawler class.
Stop trying to murder the tiny bit of brawler identity left in this class.

''stonefist 41m spammable, cus muh Dk identity'' makes absolutely no friggen sense.

You literally are blinded by your own emotions.

No DK spammable is going to give me 25% more damage from Hawkeye stacks, 12% more weapon damage with range, Major defile, delayed burst.<<<< All of which I get from Snipe, all of which depend on using bow skills. No DK stun is going to give me a 9.6k tooltip base heal in PVP, much less the 12k+ crit heals that I actually get in combat from Draining Shot.

I would get virtually nothing out of a DK spammable, it would be a filler at most. Crushing Weapons is better because I can line it up with Snipe burst and gives me additional healing.

At no point have I made an argument from MY perspective. At no point have I made an argument for what would benefit MY builds the most. Open your dang eyes.

AM I ? really. The way I think is very simple.

Earthen heart is the earth magic skill line of DK, with passives to help with sustain, it makes sense, it has a theme. ''As durable as earth''. A spammable in this tree makes absolutely no sense to me. Meanwhile ardent flame is all about flames and poison. If a spammable is going to happen, I think it is obvious which skill line is more suited for it.

I don't think I need to explain this further.

That is a fine argument from a personal perspective. However that isn't the argument you made, the argument you made was that it would have to cost too much which I proved was not the case. Then you claimed that my argument was self motivated, which again I have shown is not the case.

The argument being made by the poster is that stam DK's lack a spammable, which they do. That stam DK's barely utilize the EH or its passives, which they don't. And that Stonefist is an under utilized skill which could be changed, which it is.

If you think it shouldn't be changed because you would rather deal damage from Fire primarily that is all great and dandy, but that isn't the argument you made.

Thing is:

1. cost reduction exists and was the number 1 reason stamDks overperformed back in one tamriel.
cost reduction CP and low costing abilities. Cost reduction is still accessible via sets and jewelry.and infused jewelry makes it even more effective now. So the way I see it, they would make this ability, then people would abuse it to create ridicilous builds, then it would get nerfed and become useless for normal builds. This would also prevent this ability from having strong secondary bonuses like defiles,fracture,heals,heroism etc... because it would become too cost effective.

Then you're going to say, ''fine, we can just have a spammable that only does damage''.

But if that is the case, you have many already. If this stamina stonefist isn't going to be better than a wrecking blow or flying blade or snipe, then why even bother with it?

One other problem you forget, is that reverting battle roar/helping hands nerfs are completely possible. but if a stamina ability is added to earthern heart, than that possibility is lost forever, to avoid a balancing nightmare.

IF they're not going to make a useless ability , then sure, I would like to have a new stamina ability. But I just don't see it happening. As sad as it is, that is the truth. They just can't bother with balancing it out.

2. I don't really agree with the fact that stamDks do need a class spammable in the first place. This is a common problem for both stamsorc/stamDK, and I'm suggesting changes to wrecking blow/flurry instead of class abilities to solve it.

in my opinion, those two classes should have superior passives to the rest of stamina classes to compensate for their lack of class skill options. Stamplar might also benefit from some buffs since they are already suffering from a ton of different bugs and issues, but that is another case.

3. You're right on stamDk not being able to utilize ult gen passive as much as magDK does, and it is fine. magDk can't have minor heroism, they can't utilize sets like ww hide, tava's , asylum 2h. stamDk has lots of tools to have ult regen from. When it comes to ult gen, I believe stamDk should build for it, instead of having it for free. warden has great ult gen for free and they are a busted class as a result.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stone giant has no use for stamdk and would be a waste of skill slot. We alreadyhave petrify/reverb/dizzying.

PvE it will be very useful, if 2h could have any viability there, its already starting to look goodnin summerset where 2h get 2 set slots

Except, you don't need a CC as a dps in PvE. stamDk already mainly uses dual wield, but if I were to use a 2h setup, which is totally fine, I would prefer having as much cleave as possible. Which means I would go for brawler instead. If ZOS wants to help 2h single target dps, they can rework wrecking blow so it is easier to weave.

Stonefist is already one of the worst abilities in magDk's kit, I don't see any use for it as a stamina ability, not only that it would create balance issues because of helping hands passive. For that reason it would never be a good ability in the first place.

Helping Hands argument is bullcrap, every other spammable is in the 2k cost range. Putting a stam skill in EH tree at 3k or above would negate any "balance" issues. It is a strawman argument relying on an assumption that the skill will be made cheaper before benefitting from a passive.

No one is suggesting that the exact same skill cost stamina, people want a re-work of the existing skill as stamina. Players want more stamina morphs and Stone Giant is one of the least used skills which is why its being chosen. There are plenty of ways to change it so that it doesn't have balance issues with passives. However even given a simple cost change to stam, at 3240 cost with 990 return, effective cost would be 2250 which is more than the new Psijic spammable and on par with other spammables.

Stonefist is usually asked for a stam morph because magDks want the other 14 abilities all for themselves. So they offer stonefist to their adopted stamina brothers , so that they don't have to give up on good stuff like talons, whip, volatile armor etc.

I really wonder, have any of you actually made a magDk and tried stonefist? on a magDk, as of right now? I have, and I'm telling you it is hot garbage.

If it was a stamina ability the cost would be waaaay over 3k to balance the helping hands.(this would also mean both helping hands and battle roar would not get any adjustments in the future because it would mess with our new oh so important stamina stonefist.)

Now this is a problem because that ability would have to be terribly expensive to make sure cost reduction wouldn't make it broken. Which means on a normal build with no cost reduction it would be as expensive as stuff like heroic slash /imbued weapons, and would have none of the benefits those abilities have.

not only that, stonefist is an ability where you literally throw rocks at people. It looks ugly, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, iconic about stonefist. No, I don't want my Dk to become a rock throwing hobo, no thanks.

You guys are desperate and you all lack imagination imho, and you make bad suggestions like these.

Stamina Dk needs a spammable? then give them the damn poison whip already, and No, magDK won't die because of it. They already have literally every other ability in Dk arsenal. They will be just fine.

The bolded portion is the stupidest statement you have made, it has already been shown that Helping hands would be balanced with EVERY other spammable with Stone Fist at 3k. YOU want to increase the cost because YOU are attached to the idea that its unbalanced.

Cost of spammables:

Surprise Attack 2295
Crushing Weapon 1900
Cutting Dive 2265
Biting Jabs 2509
Flurry 2322

Stone Giant (3240-990)=2250 <<<<<<<< which is on par with every other spammable, so why don't you stop lying to everyone with your bullcrap.

Literally all you care about is your niche ''archer Dk'' build, which nobody else cares for. Cost reduction is a thing, Earthen heart abilities have stamina return because they all are intended to be utility abilities that cost magicka.

There is no room for a dot or spammable in earthern heart tree, but you don't want to accept this fact because you are obsessed with the idea of playing everything as an archer, even if it fits the class or not.

If you want to play as a bow/bow build, go make a warden or stamblade. Dk was always and always a melee brawler class.
Stop trying to murder the tiny bit of brawler identity left in this class.

''stonefist 41m spammable, cus muh Dk identity'' makes absolutely no friggen sense.

You literally are blinded by your own emotions.

No DK spammable is going to give me 25% more damage from Hawkeye stacks, 12% more weapon damage with range, Major defile, delayed burst.<<<< All of which I get from Snipe, all of which depend on using bow skills. No DK stun is going to give me a 9.6k tooltip base heal in PVP, much less the 12k+ crit heals that I actually get in combat from Draining Shot.

I would get virtually nothing out of a DK spammable, it would be a filler at most. Crushing Weapons is better because I can line it up with Snipe burst and gives me additional healing.

At no point have I made an argument from MY perspective. At no point have I made an argument for what would benefit MY builds the most. Open your dang eyes.

AM I ? really. The way I think is very simple.

Earthen heart is the earth magic skill line of DK, with passives to help with sustain, it makes sense, it has a theme. ''As durable as earth''. A spammable in this tree makes absolutely no sense to me. Meanwhile ardent flame is all about flames and poison. If a spammable is going to happen, I think it is obvious which skill line is more suited for it.

I don't think I need to explain this further.

That is a fine argument from a personal perspective. However that isn't the argument you made, the argument you made was that it would have to cost too much which I proved was not the case. Then you claimed that my argument was self motivated, which again I have shown is not the case.

The argument being made by the poster is that stam DK's lack a spammable, which they do. That stam DK's barely utilize the EH or its passives, which they don't. And that Stonefist is an under utilized skill which could be changed, which it is.

If you think it shouldn't be changed because you would rather deal damage from Fire primarily that is all great and dandy, but that isn't the argument you made.

Thing is:

1. cost reduction exists and was the number 1 reason stamDks overperformed back in one tamriel.
cost reduction CP and low costing abilities. Cost reduction is still accessible via sets and jewelry.and infused jewelry makes it even more effective now. So the way I see it, they would make this ability, then people would abuse it to create ridicilous builds, then it would get nerfed and become useless for normal builds. This would also prevent this ability from having strong secondary bonuses like defiles,fracture,heals,heroism etc... because it would become too cost effective.

Then you're going to say, ''fine, we can just have a spammable that only does damage''.

But if that is the case, you have many already. If this stamina stonefist isn't going to be better than a wrecking blow or flying blade or snipe, then why even bother with it?

One other problem you forget, is that reverting battle roar/helping hands nerfs are completely possible. but if a stamina ability is added to earthern heart, than that possibility is lost forever, to avoid a balancing nightmare.

IF they're not going to make a useless ability , then sure, I would like to have a new stamina ability. But I just don't see it happening. As sad as it is, that is the truth. They just can't bother with balancing it out.

2. I don't really agree with the fact that stamDks do need a class spammable in the first place. This is a common problem for both stamsorc/stamDK, and I'm suggesting changes to wrecking blow/flurry instead of class abilities to solve it.

in my opinion, those two classes should have superior passives to the rest of stamina classes to compensate for their lack of class skill options. Stamplar might also benefit from some buffs since they are already suffering from a ton of different bugs and issues, but that is another case.

3. You're right on stamDk not being able to utilize ult gen passive as much as magDK does, and it is fine. magDk can't have minor heroism, they can't utilize sets like ww hide, tava's , asylum 2h. stamDk has lots of tools to have ult regen from. When it comes to ult gen, I believe stamDk should build for it, instead of having it for free. warden has great ult gen for free and they are a busted class as a result.

1. As far as cost reduction I do not believe that is a relevant issue. All classes performed well with cost reduction and I do not believe DK's were significantly better because of it. Current options for cost reduction are TFS which is PVE, and Marksman, soon to be Hircines Venir as well. None of which offer significant enough cost reduction to pose an issue.

2. As far as not needing a spammable, I completely agree with you and said as much here:

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

So I spend 90% of my eso time on stam DK. Although I'm certain I play it quite differently than most of yall. I have done most of the game content on it.

I don't think stam whip is the way to go with changes. I don't think it fits the view of the class that ZOS has and I don't think it will help you in PVP as much as some think.

-- One of the iconic skills of DK's in general is the spiked armor, as such I think one small way of improving life for both stam and mag DK's is to increase the damage returned to attackers from Spiked Armor. Also increase the range on the returned damage to say 10m.

-- More specific for stam DK's, I think the Noxious Breath skill deserves to be tweaked. First open up the cone so that it hits targets in front more generally say 140-180 degrees, instead of just those standing still on your nose. Secondly increase the initial damage component.

-- Elder Dragon should be changed, my suggestion: 2% chance(per Draconic Power ability slotted) when taking direct damage, The Spirit of the Elder Dragon becomes enraged and lashes out consuming all those around it (15m range) for X damage over 6 seconds.

-- Lastly I would like to see a reduction in cost of the entire Earthen Heart skill tree. The skills are far to expensive for both mag and stam, while having far to limited use for stam. The limited use could be a more acceptable outcome given the skills were less expensive to use.

I would be hesitant to make any more significant changes as I do not believe from my own experience that stam DK's are as far behind as some claim.

DK's being a dot class in PVE specifically means more time applying dots and less time using a spammable. In pvp spammables are not high damage abilities and do not of themselves generate burst. While in conjunction with dots they could add more pressure, I've found the dots lackluster in PVP outside of bleeds. It takes far to long to apply them and valuable time is given up trying to apply them.

3. I think DK's could benefit from more ult gen. Need is a strong word that I'm not sure it would apply here.

Mostly I think that if a spammable were to be made for stam DK's, I think Stonefist is a great place for a change to be made.