Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

point is that even with a spammable you will be missing out compared to other classes. Nightblades aren't op because of suprise attack, templars aren't melting people because biting jabs is an OP ability. Its quite the opposite, both classes have crit bonuses and good kits and passives that support a damage dealer build in PvP.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

As I said, your reasoning is bad.

You're saying that stamina Dk shouldn't get this and that because we have access to all other classes do. Thats insane.

Tankyness is the natural trait of dragonknights. We lose out on other potential stats as a result. Having a spammable has NOTHING to do with this.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

As I said, your reasoning is bad.

You're saying that stamina Dk shouldn't get this and that because we have access to all other classes do. Thats insane.

Tankyness is the natural trait of dragonknights. We lose out on other potential stats as a result. Having a spammable has NOTHING to do with this.

If the spamable takes from Magdk's then yes it does

The other classes wete built around making sure that some had spammables but had clear counters. If is a stam dk is giving a spammable with no conditonal use of it (delay for example) it then has no clear counter when you factor in its access to everything else.


It already had the highest (stam version) pve dps for stamina toons. But that may change next patch

Im not saying stam dk doesnt need a buff, but it needs a buff without overpowering the class when it has a lot to it. And you seem to only be focusing on what it doesnt have while forgetting the unique traits it does have

Come on, you're getting ridicilous, literally nobody uses molten whip over power lash. Stop dramatizing it.

The highest dps in pve belongs to nightblades, both stam and mag. PvE crown for stamDk is over and pve stamDK NEVER used a spammable anyways. It was always about the heavy attack damage from molten armaments, and it will always stay that way.

also nmg and sunderflame are getting nerfed so stamina meta is dead. Both sets now offer major fracture, which is something stamDK has naturally anyways.

The argument that making molten whip a stam would make stamDk overpowered is just laughable at best.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

point is that even with a spammable you will be missing out compared to other classes. Nightblades aren't op because of suprise attack, templars aren't melting people because biting jabs is an OP ability. Its quite the opposite, both classes have crit bonuses and good kits and passives that support a damage dealer build in PvP.

Spammable would be a great start but wouldn't fix the issues of the class.

The class just needs more stam morphs and better stam related passives period its incomplete compared to a NB which has numerous stam morphs and supporting passives.

@Nelson_Rebel

Stating that sWK doesn't require any further improvements just because of your perception of the class being ultra tanky is flawed.

The sWK isn't this unkillible super tank that you think. There is literally nothing special that Dk does to tank that another class can't do. Need ult? Warden has simmering shield. Need a burst heal? Warden has Soothing spores? Major mending? Warden has it too.

Stam sorcs can heal offensively with crit surge and defensively with Dark Deal, a class skill mind you.

Stam templars can purge negaitve effects, a class skill mind you.

Lol if the pre pts change make it live now NBs will have a class heal healing for 33% for their HP and unless I read it wrong its didn't state missing HP in addtion to minor protection, a class skill mind you.

If you want to heal on a sWK you got crappy battle roar heal and crappy Green Dragons blood(Pvp) else you are left with Vigor and Rally skills that every class has access to.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

As I said, your reasoning is bad.

You're saying that stamina Dk shouldn't get this and that because we have access to all other classes do. Thats insane.

Tankyness is the natural trait of dragonknights. We lose out on other potential stats as a result. Having a spammable has NOTHING to do with this.

If the spamable takes from Magdk's then yes it does

The other classes wete built around making sure that some had spammables but had clear counters. If is a stam dk is giving a spammable with no conditonal use of it (delay for example) it then has no clear counter when you factor in its access to everything else.


It already had the highest (stam version) pve dps for stamina toons. But that may change next patch

Im not saying stam dk doesnt need a buff, but it needs a buff without overpowering the class when it has a lot to it. And you seem to only be focusing on what it doesnt have while forgetting the unique traits it does have

Come on, you're getting ridicilous, literally nobody uses molten whip over power lash. Stop dramatizing it.

The highest dps in pve belongs to nightblades, both stam and mag. PvE crown for stamDk is over and pve stamDK NEVER used a spammable anyways. It was always about the heavy attack damage from molten armaments, and it will always stay that way.

also nmg and sunderflame are getting nerfed so stamina meta is dead. Both sets now offer major fracture, which is something stamDK has naturally anyways.

*The argument that making molten whip a stam would make stamDk overpowered is just laughable at best.*

i'll never understsnd why people make this argument a stam whip will not replace rapid strikes in PVE dps nor will it magically make them OP in parses

Besides the class needs more than stam whip but thats a good safe start.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

As I said, your reasoning is bad.

You're saying that stamina Dk shouldn't get this and that because we have access to all other classes do. Thats insane.

Tankyness is the natural trait of dragonknights. We lose out on other potential stats as a result. Having a spammable has NOTHING to do with this.

If the spamable takes from Magdk's then yes it does

The other classes wete built around making sure that some had spammables but had clear counters. If is a stam dk is giving a spammable with no conditonal use of it (delay for example) it then has no clear counter when you factor in its access to everything else.


It already had the highest (stam version) pve dps for stamina toons. But that may change next patch

Im not saying stam dk doesnt need a buff, but it needs a buff without overpowering the class when it has a lot to it. And you seem to only be focusing on what it doesnt have while forgetting the unique traits it does have

Come on, you're getting ridicilous, literally nobody uses molten whip over power lash. Stop dramatizing it.

The highest dps in pve belongs to nightblades, both stam and mag. PvE crown for stamDk is over and pve stamDK NEVER used a spammable anyways. It was always about the heavy attack damage from molten armaments, and it will always stay that way.

also nmg and sunderflame are getting nerfed so stamina meta is dead. Both sets now offer major fracture, which is something stamDK has naturally anyways.

The argument that making molten whip a stam would make stamDk overpowered is just laughable at best.

Basing your argument on conjecture and belitlement doesnt lend you any credence to you argument.

But I'll humor you


How would you design the skill and what kind of tooltip are you expecting

As I siad previously I don't give a flying duck about having whip on my Dk. And I feel this way because without having good benefits alongside with it, there wouldn't be a reason to actually pick and use it on a SnB build.

You don't feel like heroic slash/ransack are spammables? Well to bad. Players use those as spammables and I can see easily over 9k on heroic slash, why would I even want to use a whip and go 2h main bar, if that whip isn't going to have like 11-12k tooltip? There is just no point.

well to you there's no point but for people like me there is. Like I said you could run any weapon you want and still have a decent non expensive class spammable. This is why bitting jabs and Suprise attack is so valuable it can be used with any stam weapon.

Most importantly these abilities are class defining.

Dizzing swing/ heroic slash are weapon skills not class skills so any stam build can do exactly what you are doing Warden Templar and NB have options besides these skill however and thats the great thing about them the diversity of skill option that DK doesn't have. Whip doesnt need a high tool tip just the option to use it with other weapons like NBs Wardens and Templars can.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

As I said, your reasoning is bad.

You're saying that stamina Dk shouldn't get this and that because we have access to all other classes do. Thats insane.

Tankyness is the natural trait of dragonknights. We lose out on other potential stats as a result. Having a spammable has NOTHING to do with this.

If the spamable takes from Magdk's then yes it does

The other classes wete built around making sure that some had spammables but had clear counters. If is a stam dk is giving a spammable with no conditonal use of it (delay for example) it then has no clear counter when you factor in its access to everything else.


It already had the highest (stam version) pve dps for stamina toons. But that may change next patch

Im not saying stam dk doesnt need a buff, but it needs a buff without overpowering the class when it has a lot to it. And you seem to only be focusing on what it doesnt have while forgetting the unique traits it does have

Come on, you're getting ridicilous, literally nobody uses molten whip over power lash. Stop dramatizing it.

The highest dps in pve belongs to nightblades, both stam and mag. PvE crown for stamDk is over and pve stamDK NEVER used a spammable anyways. It was always about the heavy attack damage from molten armaments, and it will always stay that way.

also nmg and sunderflame are getting nerfed so stamina meta is dead. Both sets now offer major fracture, which is something stamDK has naturally anyways.

The argument that making molten whip a stam would make stamDk overpowered is just laughable at best.

Basing your argument on conjecture and belitlement doesnt lend you any credence to you argument.

But I'll humor you


How would you design the skill and what kind of tooltip are you expecting

As I siad previously I don't give a flying duck about having whip on my Dk. And I feel this way because without having good benefits alongside with it, there wouldn't be a reason to actually pick and use it on a SnB build.

You don't feel like heroic slash/ransack are spammables? Well to bad. Players use those as spammables and I can see easily over 9k on heroic slash, why would I even want to use a whip and go 2h main bar, if that whip isn't going to have like 11-12k tooltip? There is just no point.

well to you there's no point but for people like me there is. Like I said you could run any weapon you want and still have a decent non expensive class spammable. This is why bitting jabs and Suprise attack is so valuable it can be used with any stam weapon.

Most importantly these abilities are class defining.

Dizzing swing/ heroic slash are weapon skills not class skills so any stam build can do exactly what you are doing Warden Templar and NB have options besides these skill however and thats the great thing about them the diversity of skill option that DK doesn't have. Whip doesnt need a high tool tip just the option to use it with other weapons like NBs Wardens and Templars can.

Viability of a poison whip really depends with what sort of utility comes with it. I'm not against it, or not really asking for it.

I just wanted to tell that poison whip isn't as huge as people make it out to be. MagDks have that insane power lash and it does 4 things with one skill bar. It does damage,sets off-balance,stuns, and heals you, while doing even more damage the second time.

The molten whip however, just gives you a little extra damage on your ardent flame abilities, which includes your venomous claws and noxious breath. Decent but not really a huge thing as people claim it would be. There is a very good reason that no magDK ever uses molten whip.

And I'm kind of mad that people want to shove the useless magDk skills into stamina Dk for some reason.

''Yeah, lets make stonefist a stamina spammable, because that makes sooo much sense''

lol.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Stam DKs have an identity. They are far and away the easiest class to break 40k on a dummy, and the second highest Stamina Damage dealer (barely behind NB with 20% of the required skill and effort).

You might not like that particular identity, but they certainly have one. And yes, they need a PVP buff.

Are you sure you know what the word ''identity'' means?

I do admit stamDK atm has high dps in pve, but that has nothing to do with class having good damage and more to do with stamina synergy sets providing easy physical penetration, and molten armaments boosting heavy attack damage. I don't see what this has to do with the word identity.

Well if you want to get nitpicky on semantics, I would say that as a damage dealer, that DKs have always been the DOT based class or the pressure class if looking for an identity. They were doing 6-7 DOT rotations way before anyone else (back when 2k DPS was mindblowing). Stam DK plays right into that. Any other class you know of that has 3 DOTs that scale of max stamina? Why do you think their single target is so high in the first place?

Again, not saying they couldnt use some PVP love. I am just not a person that is ever going to subscribe to the notion that all classes should be equal at all things. And to follow that logic, if you are really strong in some areas (single target DPS), it stands to reason that you might be weak in others.

I see your point, but those dots are criminally underperforming in PvP. Bleeds outperform them by a large margin, so there is no identity to speak of. Best dot builds in PvP are stamsorcs and stamblades. with a few stamplars I know of.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

I'd have to disagree with you on this. Based on your sentence structure you're stating that Stam DK is different than every other stamina class in that almost every DK uses heavy armor with resource management to wear down opponents? 1) Stam DK and Heavy armor are not the only inclusive terms. 2) Stating that Stam DK wears heavy armor and makes them tanky is well...silly. It makes any class wearing heavy armor tanky. 3) What constant CC? You mean the magicka morph Fossilize? I mean, it'd be great to use it constantly, but remember we are a stamina class, not a magicka class. We need to use our magicka wisely for the other important abilities like hardened/volatile armor and igneous shields. 4) Our dots? We really only have one that works effectively. That's venomous claws. Forget about noxious breath in PvP, it's useless. Hardly lands (unless you're dueling, but again the game isn't supposed to be balanced around dueling).

Now, what does make a DK tanky and that goes for mag and stam DK is that we have Burning Heart (increased healing received), Scaled Armor (increased spell resistance) and Iron Skin (increased block damage). Now two of those passives are essentially negated by Wardens. They get both increased spell and physical resistance because of their Frozen Armor passive. In addition, they have Ice Fortress which gives them reduced damage of 8% (better than Iron Skin as it applies during the entire fight, not only when blocking).

I will agree with you though on something you mentioned earlier and that is placing a stamina spammable Earthen Heart ability makes more sense than whip, since the passives in the Earthen Heart tree synergize so well.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Now if it has strong scalings one could make a 2h/bow build without relying on dizzying swing, but still, it doesn't fix any of the other issues, like how are you going to survive without SnB? agains't stamsorcs that can infinitely dark deal spam, stamblades that can just erase you with 2 buttons, magblades with their 30k burst, magsorcs with shieldstack,atro, mines etc....

I want to look optimistic but I really can't. I would prefer them just reverting the passives to what they were and I wouldn't ask for anything else really. Just give me back old battle roar-helping hands and I will be a happy camper.

Unfortunately @Ragnarock41 even the old passives would still leave us with two meaningless dots in PvP (unless all you do is duel; of course this game isn't and shouldn't be balanced around duels). In addition, it would still leave us with essentially two useless passives as well (world in ruin and elder dragon). Although I can agree that a poison whip isn't necessary, what I do think is necessary is a class spammable because of the current Stam DK toolkit. I think a stamina morph of an Earthen ability really does make a lot of sense from the Stam DK point of view. Looking at the Earthen heart passives, and you'll see amazing synergy if you added a class spammable there. The more I think about it, the more I realize that adding a class spammable under the Ardent Flame tree, would essentially require a revamp of all the associated passives under that tree in order for it to have cohesive synergy. And I can bet my in game gold that ZOS isn't willing to put that amount of effort in within these next 8 weeks before summerset is released. But what I can say is that it would be much easier for that stamina spammable to be under the Earthen Heart tree because there are passives already in place that would inherently synergize.

Kronuxx wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Pretty much this.


And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.

It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.


Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.

Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.

Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?


@Ragnarock41

Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.

Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW

And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.

You ignored my point saying it normally isnt a problem with other classes because they are simply not as tanky as Dk's

You clearly don't know what makes a stamina class survive if you really said that sentence.

I play
pvp stam warden
pvp Stam nightblade

and pve stam Dk


I know exackly how stam classes survive. and stam dk is different from them in that almost every dk uses a heavy armor build with resource management in mind to wear down opponents with constant cc, and dots

So try again

I'd have to disagree with you on this. Based on your sentence structure you're stating that Stam DK is different than every other stamina class in that almost every DK uses heavy armor with resource management to wear down opponents? 1) Stam DK and Heavy armor are not the only inclusive terms. 2) Stating that Stam DK wears heavy armor and makes them tanky is well...silly. It makes any class wearing heavy armor tanky. 3) What constant CC? You mean the magicka morph Fossilize? I mean, it'd be great to use it constantly, but remember we are a stamina class, not a magicka class. We need to use our magicka wisely for the other important abilities like hardened/volatile armor and igneous shields. 4) Our dots? We really only have one that works effectively. That's venomous claws. Forget about noxious breath in PvP, it's useless. Hardly lands (unless you're dueling, but again the game isn't supposed to be balanced around dueling).

Now, what does make a DK tanky and that goes for mag and stam DK is that we have Burning Heart (increased healing received), Scaled Armor (increased spell resistance) and Iron Skin (increased block damage). Now two of those passives are essentially negated by Wardens. They get both increased spell and physical resistance because of their Frozen Armor passive. In addition, they have Ice Fortress which gives them reduced damage of 8% (better than Iron Skin as it applies during the entire fight, not only when blocking).

I will agree with you though on something you mentioned earlier and that is placing a stamina spammable Earthen Heart ability makes more sense than whip, since the passives in the Earthen Heart tree synergize so well.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.

I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.

I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.

An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like

@NobleX35

Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.

Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.

And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.

I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.

I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.

I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.

Now if it has strong scalings one could make a 2h/bow build without relying on dizzying swing, but still, it doesn't fix any of the other issues, like how are you going to survive without SnB? agains't stamsorcs that can infinitely dark deal spam, stamblades that can just erase you with 2 buttons, magblades with their 30k burst, magsorcs with shieldstack,atro, mines etc....

I want to look optimistic but I really can't. I would prefer them just reverting the passives to what they were and I wouldn't ask for anything else really. Just give me back old battle roar-helping hands and I will be a happy camper.

Unfortunately @Ragnarock41 even the old passives would still leave us with two meaningless dots in PvP (unless all you do is duel; of course this game isn't and shouldn't be balanced around duels). In addition, it would still leave us with essentially two useless passives as well (world in ruin and elder dragon). Although I can agree that a poison whip isn't necessary, what I do think is necessary is a class spammable because of the current Stam DK toolkit. I think a stamina morph of an Earthen ability really does make a lot of sense from the Stam DK point of view. Looking at the Earthen heart passives, and you'll see amazing synergy if you added a class spammable there. The more I think about it, the more I realize that adding a class spammable under the Ardent Flame tree, would essentially require a revamp of all the associated passives under that tree in order for it to have cohesive synergy. And I can bet my in game gold that ZOS isn't willing to put that amount of effort in within these next 8 weeks before summerset is released. But what I can say is that it would be much easier for that stamina spammable to be under the Earthen Heart tree because there are passives already in place that would inherently synergize.

An Earthen Heart ability as a spammable for StamDK's does not make sense. I can understand why so many people gravitate to stonefist, since it sounds physical in nature; however, due to the Helping Hands passive a spammable in this line would not work. The skill would have to cost so much stamina (probably a base of at least 4k) to compensate for the constant stamina return. The high cost would almost render it useless as a spammable since you would not really be able to "spam" it without running out of resources quickly. Not to mention the hard cc from stonefist would work against petrify or petrify would work against stonefist. Either way it does not synergize well at all. Also hard cc on a spammable is not good for balance.

Lol what are you talking about by saying they will have to completely "revamp" the Ardent Flame line to provide a stam whip? No they would not! In fact, the passives would work just fine (they already do for the magicka variant). They just need to add some sort of meaningful change to the stamina morph and you've got yourself a good skill that will fix a lot of stamdk's problems and open up build diversity.

Honestly, I don't feel like StamDK needs a spammable. Its just a bit weird to have a poison lash, over something heavier like a dizzy, or a heavy attack.

The problem of that is that they don't really hit enough. A problem solved by stam talons, the dot morph since tanks need maim on mag. Then there is the burst issues which can be solved with a poison deep breath. And if wings becomes useful, with snare immunity+my ideas for reflect per person. You have a solid spec. You could also have hardened damage return become poisonous

I.e. You slot wings as defense, and snare removal, so you don't have to go for FM, and can use rally for burst heal, and you can drop s/b for defense. You then slot masters bow, and gain another poison dot and damage. You burst with deep breath, talons, dizzy and then leap. World in ruin has a good use, and DK gains an identity, a venomous reptile that weakens you with poison spikes, inflicting poisonous dot damage. Then drops a massive heavy burst on your head.

Qbiken wrote: »

The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).

So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.

ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.

Lol that is some serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.