The state of 2h PvE dps: test vs live

Kanar · April 2018

This discussion is about PvE.
2handed (battleaxe, great sword, maul) PvE dps is taking a nerf in Summerset due to a reduction in light attack and heavy attack damage. Here are the relevant patch notes:

Rebalanced Light and Heavy Attack damage across weapon types to reinforce the concept that Light Attacks are for dealing damage and Heavy Attacks are for restoring resources. In general, this means:
Light Attacks with One Hand and Shield, Dual Wield, Bow, Destruction Staff, and Restoration Staff weapons will deal more damage.

Light Attacks with Two Handed weapons will deal less damage.

Heavy Attacks with Destruction Staff and Restoration Staff weapons will deal more damage.

Heavy Attacks with Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Dual Wield, and Bow weapons will deal less damage.

On live 2handers do the highest LA damage, and even with this benefit they still lag behind DW by at least several thousand single target DPS. With Summerset the devs have chosen to give all 2 handed weapons two set bonuses. Observers have speculated that this additional set bonus will enable 2h to compete with DW in the ST DPS space, but as someone who actually uses 2h for PvE dps I know that the missing set bonus was never the reason why 2h is behind DW. 2h even has useful trial weapons like Asylum and Master's to make up for the missing set piece. Side note: With the SS change to 2h weapons those front bar trial weapons will now be inferior to front-bar set weapons (this applies especially to both 2handers and bows).

The real reason why 2hander dps is lower than DW is because it has one fewer dot skills and the one it has is inferior to blood craze. In addition 2h does not have AoE damage reduction, which requires 2h builds to have higher health to survive in some situations.

Despite the fact that 2h has lower dps than DW, the devs have chosen to nerf 2h PvE dps while buffing DW dps. Here the numbers taken from testing:

Weapon          Test          Live          Difference
2h LA:            3120          3062         102% of live
2h HA:            4652         5372          86% of live

dw LA:            3165         2388          132% of live
dw HA:           4365         4544           96% of live

bow LA:          2841        1980            143% of live
bow HA:         5479         5305            103% of live

Disclaimer: While I attempted to collect this data in a controlled way, there could be errors. For example, I'm an orc which gets 4% melee damage bonus.

These numbers were taken by the same character (CP, attributes, skills, etc) on both test and live, a CP720+ orc dragonknight, using trait-less CP160 purple weapons. Stamina was about 28k (no food buff), and no buffs were active (major brutality, etc). Gear was 5xVO and 5xTFS (all gold divines) with warrior mundus. After each hit, time was given to let the TFS debuff and hawkeye buff wear off. For bow attacks I was at point blank range.
NOTE: the "difference" column is not an absolute figure, but will change based on your character's ratio of stamina to weapon damage.

So despite the buff of better stamina scaling for light and heavy attacks, 2h LA is doing 102% of the damage it does on live - ie a 2% damage increase. DW LA, on the other hand is doing 132% of the damage it does on live - 32% damage increase. Bow LA sees the biggest buff (good!), doing 143% of the damage that it does on live.

For heavy attacks, 2h actually takes the biggest nerf!! This will come as a suprise to anyone who has tried to make a good PvE dps rotation using 2h heavy attacks - they are slow and sucky (at least that bug where they mysteriously miss despite being aimed right at the target is supposed to be fixed). DW, largely considered to have the best heavy attack in the game, still does 96% of the damage that it does on live - only a 4% damage reduction vs the 14% reduction that 2h gets. Finally bow gets a tiny buff to 103% of live, which still isn't enough to make them worth using in my opinion.

On live I can hit 35k against a 3m dummy on my orc DK with 5xVO, 5xTFS, 1xAsylum axe, 1xMaelstrom Bow. On test I was also able to hit 35k - pretty much the same. However this is a significant nerf given that everyone else will be doing at least a few K more dps. Not to mention, me being able to hit 35k on test is probably because of the huge buff that bow received. It is impossible to test just 2h in isolation because it would only be a half rotation, not a real world scenario. If I swap out my asylum axe for briarheart I could use a monster set, so slightly lower damage (no VO) but a proc that can usually do about 1k dps.

In summary, if these nerfs go live 2h will actually be in a worse relative position vs DW. I will most likely go bow/bow with briarheart, TFS, Stormfist instead of 2h/bow. I will miss all the fun I have had with 2handers though.

Final note on PvP: nerfing 2h LA doesn't change the reasons why people choose 2h for PvP.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

Thank you for this data. It's in line with what myself and others have discovered and makes very little sense.

One thing I'd like to add is that while the 2H and DW light attacks deal fairly similar damage (with DW hitting harder per swing), 2H attack speed is 40% slower than DW, resulting in considerably lower light attack DPS from 2H. While this doesn't matter much in a rotation, it's still a head scratcher.

Also, Dual Wield has far easier access to crit% via daggers. It's impossible to get a 2H build anywhere close. So while DW skills and base light attacks hit at roughly the same magnitude as their 2H equivalents, they'll really be hitting much harder due to a greater crit percentage. The additional weapon damage 2H is supposed to get to compensate for this isn't reflected in skill DPS or light/heavy attacks. This exacerbates the gap even further.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

To add to my first post, one idea I thought of, due to the new increased emphasis on Heavy Attacks being for regen and Light Attacks being for damage, is a change to the Follow Up passive, which adds 10% damage to the next attack after a fully charged heavy attack.

With the change to Empower, Wrecking Blow (the skill line's spammable) functions considerably different in a rotation and there is no longer a reasonable way to fit a heavy attack in a rotation like there is on Live. In this new environment with these two changes coupled together, Follow Up is a dead passive in most cases.

Therefore I propose that Follow Up is replaced with a passive that gives all Two Handed weapons an inherent amount of Physical Penetration, similar to what staves get. This would alleviate the 2H-DW DPS gap some, reduce some of the PVP burst potential via changing Follow Up, and allow for slightly different itemization priorities for two handed weapons vs DW.

On a lesser note, penetration fits because of how "heavy" Two Handed weapons are compared to their lighter, faster DW equivalents. It's a good flavor fit, though that naturally comes second to balance.

Leemado · April 2018

I'm concerned at this too since I play 2hander PVE and did a little testing of my own some days ago:

I did the comparison using CP160 blue decisive weapons (2H, DW and Bow). I list individual light attacks values and DPS against precursor only doing light attacks:

2H:

Normal light attack: 2902
Precursor only light attacking: 4866 DPS

DW:

Normal light attack: 3467
Precursor only light attacking: 7119 DPS
DW individual light attacks do 20% more damage than 2H attacks.
DW attacks are faster than 2H
Light attack DPS considering speed of DW seems to be 46% more than 2H

Bow:

Normal light attack: 3617 ~ 4145 *
Precursor only light attacking: 8033 DPS

Here is the post i made a few days ago:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5070257

Leemado · April 2018

I Hope we can ever get a response from a dev about this, at least to let us know if it is intentional and will remain like this or if there's going to be a balance.

I think all stamina weapons (except S&B) should do the same (or very similar) damage DPS wise when only light attacking. 2H, being the slowest, should do the most damage of them all on a single swing.

If ZOS is doing this from a PVP balance perspective, I dont think this will dissuade pvpers to move to another weapon at all. 2H is used mostly on PVP because of skills like Forward momentum/Rally and Executioner. This change will hurt 2H in PVE even more than it is now.

Also it makes no sense that the biggest and slowest of all weapons do the least damage both in a single swing as dps wise.

Leemado · April 2018

I also wonder if ZOS is making this nerf because of the change to empower and its availability on wrecking blow. If that is so, the change should be to wrecking blow and not to light attacks since not all of us use that ability as a spammable, specially now that Imbue weapons could become an alternative to it.

Leemado · April 2018

Kanar wrote: »

In summary, if these nerfs go live 2h will actually be in a worse relative position vs DW. I will most likely go bow/bow with briarheart, TFS, Stormfist instead of 2h/bow. I will miss all the fun I have had with 2handers though.

I was thinking of Bow/Bow build myself, and also run 2H/Bow but use Imbue Weapons/LA with bow as spammable (will have to test) and using 2H for Rally/Brawler/executioner.

Kanar wrote: »

Final note on PvP: nerfing 2h LA doesn't change the reasons why people choose 2h for PvP.

This change in fact will probably make 2H a PVP exclusive weapon. I wonder if this is ZOS intention.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

Leemado wrote: »

I also wonder if ZOS is making this nerf because of the change to empower and its availability on wrecking blow. If that is so, the change should be to wrecking blow and not to light attacks since not all of us use that ability as a spammable, specially now that Imbue weapons could become an alternative to it.

I feel like the nerf to light attacks was a kneejerk reaction to the Empower changes without factoring in the bigger picture of how it stacks up vs other skill lines, or even factoring in that the Empower changes indirectly orphan a 2H passive (Follow Up).

They wanted to make sure that Empower wasn't too good for PVP bursting via Wrecking Blow, but they overcompensated.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

I’m a StamDK and I like 2H (Crit rush in particular) and would love to use 2H for PVE but it just doesn’t compare to DW. I absolutely CANNOT use DW in PVP (I don’t have Krotha’s godly skills hehehehe). So, it’s a crappy trade off. DW for PvE (stuff dies QUICK). 2H for PvP (PEOPLE die). So, oh well...

Kanar · April 2018

@Tempestwrath
I was involved in those other threads but a mod decided to delete my posts.
Regarding Wrecking Blow, I consider that skill to be useless in PvE. It's just too slow. In another thread I challenged someone to post a 30k+ parse using Wrecking Blow and they said it was easy. Never heard back from them...I just checked Alcast's page on his stam sorc and he doesn't even have a DPS parse in his videos.

@Leemado
I think your numbers are off, you should test again controlling all variables and making sure to exclude critical hits. How much stamina does the character have? But I agree with your conclusions - the changes on test will make 2handers even less desirable than they currently are. On live I can play 2h in almost all content and do well, however in many of those situations I know that I could be doing more with dw. That will get even worse in SS. Since bow is seeing a nice buff in SS I might go bow/bow because range is so much easier than melee.

NyassaV · April 2018

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Leemado wrote: »

[*] DW attacks are faster than 2H
[*] Light attack DPS considering speed of DW seems to be 46% more than 2H

Light attack speed should be the same if I'm not mistaken. Heavy attack speed is however different and that is mostly due to the fact 2H has an empower passive after a fully charged heavy attack.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

Leemado wrote: »

I also wonder if ZOS is making this nerf because of the change to empower and its availability on wrecking blow. If that is so, the change should be to wrecking blow and not to light attacks since not all of us use that ability as a spammable, specially now that Imbue weapons could become an alternative to it.

Nobody ever uses wrecking blow anymore. It's dizzying swing as wb has no cc.

Why would they make this change for the sledom used morph?

Kanar · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Did you not read the post, or are just incapable of understanding it?

usmcjdking · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Leemado wrote: »

[*] DW attacks are faster than 2H
[*] Light attack DPS considering speed of DW seems to be 46% more than 2H

Light attack speed should be the same if I'm not mistaken. Heavy attack speed is however different and that is mostly due to the fact 2H has an empower passive after a fully charged heavy attack.

Because that's literally the base of the weapon. There is no fundamental reason that light attacking with a 2h should result in a 60%> dmg reduction over DW and Bow. LA/HA is supposed to scale off your stats not your weapon selection lol.

It probably gets outparsed by resto staff.

NyassaV · April 2018

Kanar wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Did you not read the post, or are just incapable of understanding it?

Are you incapable of understanding that you are using something that has different strengths and weaknesses so it will of course be weaker than DW because it's not built to do just damage like DW is. 2H is far more versatile. This I call balanced because you are making choices and sacrifices

Integral1900 · April 2018

I’m sticking with two handed no matter how bad they make it, firstly the heavy attack animation looks unbelivably cool, second is that I find the sustain is far better, I used to be a full bore dual wield meta junkie, kinda left that behind now and I’m using mostly solo builds, they are great for helping newer players through dungeons and personally that extra sustain is well worth it.

The heavy attack nerf is uncalled for, but I’m patient, I can wait for the next time they change their mind and put it back up again

Tempestwrath · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Did you not read the post, or are just incapable of understanding it?

Are you incapable of understanding that you are using something that has different strengths and weaknesses so it will of course be weaker than DW because it's not built to do just damage like DW is. 2H is far more versatile. This I call balanced because you are making choices and sacrifices

So by that logic do you call 2H having the weakest light attack DPS in the game "balanced?"

2H has an AOE DOT. (Cleave) DW has a single target DOT (Twin Slashes)

2H has a single target execute. (Reverse Slash) DW has an AOE execute. (Whirlwind)

2H has a 1 second cast time spammable. (Uppercut) DW has a channeled spammable.(Flurry)

2H has a Brutality source with a heal. (Momentum) DW has a Brutality source (Hidden Blade), but its healing is tied into two separate skills' morphs. (Blood Craze and Bloodthirst)

In most aspects the two lines have similar levels of utility. The biggest exception is that DW has an AOE with a built in AOE damage reduction (Blade Cloak, slated for a damage nerf) and 2H gets a gap closer. (Critical Charge, recently nerfed) All the other differences are primarily in skill/ability packaging.

Which skills actually get used is irrelevant because that's dependent on the actual damage/healing numbers relative to other options. You know, balance. But insofar as purpose, both skill lines objectively have a mix of utility and DPS available.

As I just evidenced, this in no way indicates that 2H should inherently be gimped in comparison to DW.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

Kanar wrote: »

@Tempestwrath
I was involved in those other threads but a mod decided to delete my posts.
Regarding Wrecking Blow, I consider that skill to be useless in PvE. It's just too slow. In another thread I challenged someone to post a 30k+ parse using Wrecking Blow and they said it was easy. Never heard back from them...I just checked Alcast's page on his stam sorc and he doesn't even have a DPS parse in his videos.

I parse right at 30k using a build very similar to Alcast's, and that's without a Maelstrom bow. I'd probably hit 33-34+ with one of those. As soon as I have the time to figure out video recording and uploading, I'd be happy to demonstrate it. With the current way skills are set up on this patch (subject to considerable changes in the coming patch), you want to clip heavy attacks into Wrecking Blow to make it viable; if you time it correctly, you can execute both at the same time. In that respect it's by no means too slow, but it's a rather clunky and tricky skill to use, that requires precise timing. I wouldn't dare attempt this if I had latency issues. This is, however, the build I've used lately in DLC Vets/Vet Trials with my guild. We're not running for leaderboard, or I'd run DW, but it works.

That being said, when I swap into a DW Stamsorc build I'm instantly hitting 35k without breaking a sweat. 38k would not be out of the picture.

This build's rotation will be insolvent come release because of the changes to Empower and Bound Armaments, but I have some interesting ideas in the works to adapt. But if 2H weaving DPS is as poor as it is on PTS, I don't really think I'll have the heart to keep at it, because the gap will grow even wider and I won't really be able to rationalize intentionally hobbling my performance so much.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Did you not read the post, or are just incapable of understanding it?

Are you incapable of understanding that you are using something that has different strengths and weaknesses so it will of course be weaker than DW because it's not built to do just damage like DW is. 2H is far more versatile. This I call balanced because you are making choices and sacrifices

Balance is if all weapon choices are equally viable for all content, whether pvp or pve. Your concept of balance is flawed

Kanar · April 2018

Tempestwrath wrote: »

I won't really be able to rationalize intentionally hobbling my performance so much.

That is really the situation with 2h. Currently on live using it is hobbling yourself...but only a little and there are some areas where it is arguably better. (IMO it's def more fun than dw)

However if 2h/bow stays where it is currently at (2h takes a nerf, bow gets a buff) while dw/bow gets a not-insignificant buff, then it will just be hard to continue going with the underdog when you're giving up so much and gaining so little. (Even the fun asylum and master's weaps are gonna be tough to rationalize considering what we're giving up now).

xaraan · April 2018

2H needs to be as viable in end-game high DPS runs as DW, they are both weapon lines, one should not be just used b/c some players stick with it b/c it's fun and the other is the one that actually does all the damage.

Everything else that a skill line does is just utility, so at base, they should offer the same offensive tools - even if done in different ways. So 2H has mit through self-Rally-Heals and Brawler shield and DW has mit through a couple different attacks with healing morphs and an AoE passive damage skill that also gives 25% mit. (Not to mention that Rally got a lot less necessary once Vigor was added to the game - which is fine). 2H has a knockdown morph, DW has a ranged attack. Etc. So there is nothing wrong with making sure all the "utility" that a skill line brings to the player is different from one skill line to the next and offering different benefits to each, but at the heart, they should both be equally as useful for the damage portion since that is the main job of the person running either weapon line.

Animus-ESO · April 2018

Kanar wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

I won't really be able to rationalize intentionally hobbling my performance so much.

That is really the situation with 2h. Currently on live using it is hobbling yourself...but only a little and there are some areas where it is arguably better. (IMO it's def more fun than dw)

However if 2h/bow stays where it is currently at (2h takes a nerf, bow gets a buff) while dw/bow gets a not-insignificant buff, then it will just be hard to continue going with the underdog when you're giving up so much and gaining so little. (Even the fun asylum and master's weaps are gonna be tough to rationalize considering what we're giving up now).

Whoa whoa there. 2h was worse when you had to give up a 5 peice bonus for it. Now 2h and dw have the same advantages for sets. Put on acuity and what ever is meta on both and see how they compare before saying 2H is worse then dw. Ive yet to see anyone do that

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

I won't really be able to rationalize intentionally hobbling my performance so much.

That is really the situation with 2h. Currently on live using it is hobbling yourself...but only a little and there are some areas where it is arguably better. (IMO it's def more fun than dw)

However if 2h/bow stays where it is currently at (2h takes a nerf, bow gets a buff) while dw/bow gets a not-insignificant buff, then it will just be hard to continue going with the underdog when you're giving up so much and gaining so little. (Even the fun asylum and master's weaps are gonna be tough to rationalize considering what we're giving up now).

Whoa whoa there. 2h was worse when you had to give up a 5 peice bonus for it. Now 2h and dw have the same advantages for sets. Put on acuity and what ever is meta on both and see how they compare before saying 2H is worse then dw. Ive yet to see anyone do that

Have you read any of the posts? 2h had light attacks nerfed.

Dw had much higher dps on love and is even higher on pts. 2H had its dps DECREASED by this nerf

JumpmanLane · April 2018

On a StamDK if DW isn’t viable AT ALL in PvP, due to most folks wearing impen and you are forced to use 2H, why in the WORLD shouldn’t one be forced to use DW in PvE? Point of fact, you are NOT forced to use DW in PvE. You can 2H hack and slash your way through ALL endgame content outside of a trial.

As a metric, the only thing that matters in Damage Per Second is the Second-i.e. the TIME (again outside of a leaderboard): how long it takes to kill something. Sure, your group mates may whine because you took too long to kill something but if you are man enough to beg for nerfs you should be man enough to tell someone to stfu caws you’re kinda slow killing stuff with your 2H bad self hehehehe

Kanar · April 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

I won't really be able to rationalize intentionally hobbling my performance so much.

That is really the situation with 2h. Currently on live using it is hobbling yourself...but only a little and there are some areas where it is arguably better. (IMO it's def more fun than dw)

However if 2h/bow stays where it is currently at (2h takes a nerf, bow gets a buff) while dw/bow gets a not-insignificant buff, then it will just be hard to continue going with the underdog when you're giving up so much and gaining so little. (Even the fun asylum and master's weaps are gonna be tough to rationalize considering what we're giving up now).

Whoa whoa there. 2h was worse when you had to give up a 5 peice bonus for it. Now 2h and dw have the same advantages for sets. Put on acuity and what ever is meta on both and see how they compare before saying 2H is worse then dw. Ive yet to see anyone do that

Have you actually used 2h on live in PvE to demonstrate that it is worse than test? I do use it in PvE on live. I have posted the numbers that show it is worse off, relative to DW (which is what matters). DW light attacks are doing 32% more damage than on live; 2h light attacks are doing 2% more damage than live. DW heavy attacks are doing 96% of the damage they do on live (a 4% reduction); 2h heavy attacks are doing 86% the damage they are doing on live (a 14% reduction). Do you know what a good 2h rotation looks like?

Tell me what you see doing 4th most dps in that rotation? What impact do you think it will have for that source of damage to be nerfed?

So you A.) don't even play 2h on live and B.) have done no tests on this matter; yet you declare 2h to be better off, and that it is my responsibility to go prove it. 2h will barely break even with live, while DW will increase it's lead over 2h.

sneakymitchell · April 2018

Kanar wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

I won't really be able to rationalize intentionally hobbling my performance so much.

That is really the situation with 2h. Currently on live using it is hobbling yourself...but only a little and there are some areas where it is arguably better. (IMO it's def more fun than dw)

However if 2h/bow stays where it is currently at (2h takes a nerf, bow gets a buff) while dw/bow gets a not-insignificant buff, then it will just be hard to continue going with the underdog when you're giving up so much and gaining so little. (Even the fun asylum and master's weaps are gonna be tough to rationalize considering what we're giving up now).

Whoa whoa there. 2h was worse when you had to give up a 5 peice bonus for it. Now 2h and dw have the same advantages for sets. Put on acuity and what ever is meta on both and see how they compare before saying 2H is worse then dw. Ive yet to see anyone do that

Have you actually used 2h on live in PvE to demonstrate that it is worse than test? I do use it in PvE on live. I have posted the numbers that show it is worse off, relative to DW (which is what matters). DW light attacks are doing 32% more damage than on live; 2h light attacks are doing 2% more damage than live. DW heavy attacks are doing 96% of the damage they do on live (a 4% reduction); 2h heavy attacks are doing 86% the damage they are doing on live (a 14% reduction). Do you know what a good 2h rotation looks like?

Tell me what you see doing 4th most dps in that rotation? What impact do you think it will have for that source of damage to be nerfed?

So you A.) don't even play 2h on live and B.) have done no tests on this matter; yet you declare 2h to be better off, and that it is my responsibility to go prove it. 2h will barely break even with live, while DW will increase it's lead over 2h.

Now try out dw/2h. DPS will drop cause of that endless hail doing so much damage. But of course one will argue it’s a AoE like caltrops just stand in it and see huge damage numbers under 3 secs. If more bosses move around rather than stand there facing the tank then you will see a drop in DPS. But the ai is just terrible and just stand there doing attacks sometimes huge attacks.

NyassaV · April 2018

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Did you not read the post, or are just incapable of understanding it?

Are you incapable of understanding that you are using something that has different strengths and weaknesses so it will of course be weaker than DW because it's not built to do just damage like DW is. 2H is far more versatile. This I call balanced because you are making choices and sacrifices

So by that logic do you call 2H having the weakest light attack DPS in the game "balanced?"

2H has an AOE DOT. (Cleave) DW has a single target DOT (Twin Slashes)

2H has a single target execute. (Reverse Slash) DW has an AOE execute. (Whirlwind)

2H has a 1 second cast time spammable. (Uppercut) DW has a channeled spammable.(Flurry)

2H has a Brutality source with a heal. (Momentum) DW has a Brutality source (Hidden Blade), but its healing is tied into two separate skills' morphs. (Blood Craze and Bloodthirst)

In most aspects the two lines have similar levels of utility. The biggest exception is that DW has an AOE with a built in AOE damage reduction (Blade Cloak, slated for a damage nerf) and 2H gets a gap closer. (Critical Charge, recently nerfed) All the other differences are primarily in skill/ability packaging.

Which skills actually get used is irrelevant because that's dependent on the actual damage/healing numbers relative to other options. You know, balance. But insofar as purpose, both skill lines objectively have a mix of utility and DPS available.

As I just evidenced, this in no way indicates that 2H should inherently be gimped in comparison to DW.

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

Leemado · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

That doesnt justify why it needed a nerf when they were already underperforming comparing to DW. If LA werent nerfed DW would still remain a little more powerful.
Now... if this is to balance PVP then 2H skills need to be reviewed not LAs.

Kanar · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

First off... Why are you using a 2H in PvE? You are making trade offs for using it so please don't ask for it to be buffed simply because it doesn't preform as well as something else that is meant for something else.

The 2H skill tree is built differently than DW. With 2H you have rally, a powerful stamina heal, (pretty useful in vMA sometimes) but lacks powerful single target DoTs which are key to high PvE DPS. 2H also has sustain passive for when you kill an enemy. Now DW on the other hand is built for higher DPS with less versatility in it's skill tree and more focus on damage.

Did you not read the post, or are just incapable of understanding it?

Are you incapable of understanding that you are using something that has different strengths and weaknesses so it will of course be weaker than DW because it's not built to do just damage like DW is. 2H is far more versatile. This I call balanced because you are making choices and sacrifices

So by that logic do you call 2H having the weakest light attack DPS in the game "balanced?"

2H has an AOE DOT. (Cleave) DW has a single target DOT (Twin Slashes)

2H has a single target execute. (Reverse Slash) DW has an AOE execute. (Whirlwind)

2H has a 1 second cast time spammable. (Uppercut) DW has a channeled spammable.(Flurry)

2H has a Brutality source with a heal. (Momentum) DW has a Brutality source (Hidden Blade), but its healing is tied into two separate skills' morphs. (Blood Craze and Bloodthirst)

In most aspects the two lines have similar levels of utility. The biggest exception is that DW has an AOE with a built in AOE damage reduction (Blade Cloak, slated for a damage nerf) and 2H gets a gap closer. (Critical Charge, recently nerfed) All the other differences are primarily in skill/ability packaging.

Which skills actually get used is irrelevant because that's dependent on the actual damage/healing numbers relative to other options. You know, balance. But insofar as purpose, both skill lines objectively have a mix of utility and DPS available.

As I just evidenced, this in no way indicates that 2H should inherently be gimped in comparison to DW.

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

DW does offer more utility than 2h. Blade cloak is better than brawler in all boss fights. Rally is not even useful in PvE, vigor is far better.

So DW has better utility, better damage. Or are you bringing up PvP points in a discussion that is clearly marked as a PvE discussion?

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

2H LA got nerfed because of weaving.

If DW and 2H weaving rotations have the same number of light attacks in them, it makes sense that these values would be homogenized, since everyone wants 2H and DW to be the same thing (which I still find idiotic).

What I want to see is a parse that utilizes the Wrecking Blow Empower as the spammable with those light attacks, compared to a parse that uses flurry as the spammable.

Tempestwrath · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

DW has an AoE DoT, it's called blade cloak. DW has passive execute. Flurry is garbage as is Uppercut so I'm going to ignore you mentioned those skills since they both suck. And Rally provides a potent heal in addition to major brutality. DW has no potent heals, bloodcraze and bloodthirst are garbage.

So yeah, it's pretty balanced. You are making choices and sacrafices. That's what balance is about. Making smart choices for different tools/skills/play-styles. This whole discussion is pointless to be honest as is the change actually. I don't see why they needed a nerf but when you look at what 2H has to offer vs DW I can kinda see it. There is no real issue in this matter. For more damage use DW. For more utility use 2H

I would appreciate it if you read my post again a little slower and with a little more comprehension. I mentioned Blade Cloak. It's an AOE DOT that's about to get a 40% damage nerf, but the main reason it's slotted is the significant AOE damage reduction when slotted, making it chiefly a utility skill.

And as for Flurry/Bloodthirst/etc I reiterate: For the purposes of determining whether a skill line has built-in utility, what skills actually see use are irrelevant, because that's highly dependent on their damage/mitigation/healing/utility numbers compared to other skills. What matters is whether the skill is intended for a given use. That's what balance is.

As I described in detail, the only tool that 2H gets that DW does not get is a gap closer that does no damage. In return they get an AOE DOT with a massive damage reduction to incoming AOE attacks. You know, a different kind of utility skill.

In terms of PVE usage, 2H has been way behind DW for a very long time and nerfing its damage further is not okay. The reason is that not only does it make the skill line even more irrelevant in PVE, it doesn't address why it's so ubiquitous in PVP.

The reason why 2H is used over DW in PVP has nothing whatsoever with it's damage output. Instead, it's about having a gap closer, a decent healing skill, and a potent single target execute in one skill line. Many of these types of skills are also available in class skill lines or in the Alliance War lines. But, if those skills are overly powerful in a PVP environment, adjust those skills alone; don't make a sweeping change to light and heavy attacks that neuter the skill line wholesale. Outside of any percieved utilities, both 2H and DW are weapon skills. Their primary purpose will always be to do damage.

I really, truly can't break it down any simpler than this post, and the last one I made. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.