DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Please stop whining about Sorcs here as a *** Nightblade? Especially when you have no idea what you’re talking about? And your class runs around with every buff and debuff in the game?

Frags hit for about 5-7K now, which makes them not every worth the bar space. I can’t even name a nightblade skill that does less than crystal fragments, and every skill you have applied a damn stun or debuff.

Yes, frags hit a little too hard before when sharpened was 5K armor pen, Spinner had 4K armor pen, we empowered every frag, and then we tore through heavy armor builds.

That was awhile ago, and ALL OF THAT IS GONE. Empower is nerfed, sharpened gives 2500 armor pen, and Spinner was nerfed as well. Kindly STFU and let us have breach and 1K more damage on crystal fragments.

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

Derra wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

Runecage in it´s current form on live isn´t good enough. The skill needs something or it won´t get used. It just doesn´t need unavoidable direct dmg.

I partially blame Master Destro for that. Let's be honest much more people would use rune cage if they wouldnt have acces to spammable , cheap , high dmg CC which Destructive Touch is right now. Rune Cage isnt that bad ability it's range unblockable , undodgable CC. Maybe the morph itself is not adding something super strong but base skill feature is ok. The problem is that there is something much better and easier in use.

I´ve tested that for me personally by trying both as a cc with perfected asylum. I chose reach over cage - mainly bc sorc can´t really affort to "waste" a gcd without damage in their already low offensive uptime (due to shield mechanics).

Cage on live is imo only niche vaible for grps that have neither access to petrify nor fear or on superhigh dmg dueling builds. Otherwise it´s simply a bad ability.

Defensive rune is good in theory but gets ruined because it gets triggered by shadowrend + nb shade ability without ccing anything.

Maulkin wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

Runecage in it´s current form on live isn´t good enough. The skill needs something or it won´t get used. It just doesn´t need unavoidable direct dmg.

I partially blame Master Destro for that. Let's be honest much more people would use rune cage if they wouldnt have acces to spammable , cheap , high dmg CC which Destructive Touch is right now. Rune Cage isnt that bad ability it's range unblockable , undodgable CC. Maybe the morph itself is not adding something super strong but base skill feature is ok. The problem is that there is something much better and easier in use.

I'm not so sure. I'd probably use Reach in place of Cage even without the Master's staff. If you don't have a Master staff you'll need Crushing Shock/Force Pulse for spammable damage. So it comes down to a choice between Fire/Lightning Reach for your CC or Cage.

Cage is a guaranteed hit but the combo deals lower damage, since Cage deals no damage. It's also lower pressure, since apart from the upfront damage, Reach applies a DoT. Lightning Reach can proc Implosion, Fire Reach offers the unique feature of a knockback. They both have some merit over Cage.

It's not a terrible skill, but it needs some more utility than it currently has. Be it a debuff or DoT or direct damage.

I think You guys slightly missed the point of my opinion. I never said without Master Destro noone would use Reach. I just said that Master Destro makes the skill so potent and easy to use that barely any sorc with destro/resto thinks about using other options.

I do realize that for more experienced player using Reach is not an issue even with Force Shock as spammable but the thing is average player ( and game seems bo be lately maded for them and in PvP there is lot of them ) would very often found this to be problematic because his spammable ability is more expensive and his CC is not guaranteed and he cannot afford to spam it until he'll finally stun enemie. Master Destro simply removes that issue (side note : breaking free from knockbaks is broken like hell lately which also works for Reach).

This is not coincidence that people are paying gold for vDSA carries same as this is not coincidence lately almost every sorc and even other classes are spamming Reach. Even if cage would get some slight tweaks I dont think that many people start to use it over destructive touch with maelstorm destro. Cage would have to get something really nice to beat Destructive Reach itself and even stronger buffs to beat Reach with Master Destro. I was always thinking that applying some minor buff on user and minor debuff on enemie when he breaks stun would be interresting idea.

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

And btw, good sorcerers are fine already on Live (might have something to do with them not filling their bars with multiple skills to counter one class when just one such skill would suffice) without overtuned skills that limit build diversity

No, they’re just stubborn and love their main chars. Big difference.

Are you telling me good sorcerers like Derra, Malcolm, Fasold etc aren't winning most of their fights?


Please, stop living in a bubble.

Master_Kas wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

Sorc burst is now what he aims to get nerfed, like power lash was last PTS.

What happened to your DK @DDuke ? Haven't seen you playing it in Cyro at all. You claimed it will be so strong now that you can powerlash more often. Perhaps dueling in Alkir under perfect conditions?

And ye two-three shotting people with Asylum bow from stealth is completely balanced.

Actually dueling on PTS with a new version that involves the new Siroria set, you'll see it next patch.

Damage is through the roof now with the new Combustion passive, as you don't need a single sustain set anymore (RIP Eyes of Mara, you will be missed).

I'll probably play that build a couple of weeks, wreck people in Cyrodiil, post a video & then go back to the playstyle I enjoy the most: stealth oriented high dmg NB.

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

You have "no problems" with nightblades, yet half your setup is to counter them? Mhm. Ok.

Minalan wrote: »

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

Yes, it would be NICE also if I could slot Magelight to power up a light attack, if I could slot some CC/area denial like Manifestation of Terror or a instant cast spammable like Crushing Weapon. But I can't, and I'm fine with that.

No offense, but it sounds to me like your build is so bad it'd need literally every skill in the game to perform adequately in PvP. Unfortunately there's a limit of 12 you can slot (17 with Overload).

Minalan wrote: »

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

You're mistaken, even if the patch goes Live as it is I'll still be one shotting people. I'll just get one shot in return with nothing I can do about it if I happen to become visible for a second, which kind of limits these builds to just ganking.

That's perfect, right? More opportunistic gankers stalking you until you're outnumbered & your shields are down... sounds fun /s

And btw, good sorcerers are fine already on Live (might have something to do with them not filling their bars with multiple skills to counter one class when just one such skill would suffice) without overtuned skills that limit build diversity

We were arguably fine before the nerfs to crystal frags.

Alright so much to answer, and this isn’t really worth the time to quote everything.

1. I could go with fewer nightblade specific counter skills, but let’s be honest, with how many of you there are in Cyrodiil - having a plethora of counters makes fighting you all more fun. If you fight good players you can’t depend on just *one* way/counter of beating them, so I keep my options open.

Plus, it’s not like I haven’t killed *other* classes with these skills. Boundless is a good defense and mobility regardless. Streak with the AOE CC and damage works on everyone. Defensive rune always stuns the first opponent to open up on me, it just works better on bow ganktards. They love it!

No, what you're doing is making your build worse by slotting multiple skills that serve the same purpose & sacrificing dmg/viability against other classes by doing so. Sigh... did I really have to explain that?

Minalan wrote: »

2. I don’t get what you’re saying, I should play the game with fewer than 12 skills? I’m bad because both bars are full? I just... I don’t even. You’re mad and not making sense. Calm down man.

I'm saying that you seem to expect some sort of entitlement to be able to perform everything on your build. I.e. "I don't want to slot skills X & Y to be strong against Nightblades, so I deserve to just one shot them with Rune Cage".

Here's a tip, totally free of charge: if you want to perform better on a sorc, start by making a well-rounded build. You don't need 4 skills to counter one class, you need just detection potions or streak.

On top of those, things you'd have anyway on your bar like Curse already make their lives difficult.


I'm having zero problems on my magicka sorcerer vs stamblades with just det pots slotted as "counter".

Minalan wrote: »

3. Sounds like an even trade off to me, everything in the game has to have a counter. I expect nightblades to fill the forums with tears, just like they did before. It’s the way of things.

Aha. So what's my counter to shield stacking on a high damage bow build? Don't tell me "slot Shield breaker or the new set", because that is garbage vs pretty much everything else.

A sorcerer doesn't need to slot any special gear or skills to "counter" non-tank builds on PTS, all they need to slot is Rune Cage (which is good vs every build).


So maybe ZOS should make fear remove dmg shields, just to put things into perspective for you?

Minalan wrote: »

4. I didn’t think nightblade needed any nerfs either, they just needed to fix the crit healing (a bug), and maybe make it so detect pot revealed nightblades couldn’t spam cloak to avoid getting hit by ranged attacks (which sounds like another bug to me). I’m not begging for incap or cloak nerfs. I didn’t think you guys really needed any other adjustments.

Right, nightblades didn't need any adjustments - apart from them being one-shottable with a skill that ignores their main defensive mechanic. After all, you don't need to nerf Incap or cloak when the stamblade never gets to use them... quite clever indeed.

You come across as such a serious d-bag it’s hard to take you serious here. Like you’re the *only* one here that knows how to build or play the game.

No need for name-calling.

I understand I may come across that way, but that is because I do tend to know what I'm talking about (ugh, d-bagness probably just intensified), which is why conflicting opinions aren't always treated with the dignity they deserve.

Minalan wrote: »

You’re arguing that your one shot nightblade build should be viable, and immune to be killed in one rotation. “I want to kill you easy with a one button macro, but no fair, you can’t do it to me!”

I see it the other way: you're here arguing it shouldn't be viable & deserves to get one shot even while playing defensively & making no play mistakes. Here's a little secret: burst from high dmg stamblade always has counters: dodge roll, block, stack shields - there's no guaranteed kills.

Sure, with my build Asylum Snipe is difficult (near impossible) to avoid if it comes from stealth, but even those scenarios you can avoid by either a) positioning better or b) keeping shields up.

Meanwhile, no amount of dodge rolling, Vigor spam or blocking saves you from Rune Cage burst.

Minalan wrote: »

I’ve heard every argument how much ‘skill’ it takes to nuke someone from stealth, and frankly I’m not convinced.

Well, there's a reason why most people fail at it. I'm not saying it takes a particularly high amount of skill, but certainly more so than playing an infinite regen rollerblade and waiting for Incap->Will to be up while not getting punished by any mistake thanks to infinite sustain & decent enough health pool/mitigation.
And certainly more so than pressing Rune Cage button at that non-tank build & then throwing a Frag proc out.

There's a reason why most people play rollerblades in PvP rather than dmg builds, let's just leave it at that before opening the can of worms that is "what is skill" in a game with no skill cooldowns or anything that'd actually require thinking.

Minalan wrote: »

My build is plenty well rounded. 47K Magicka, 19K stamina. I’m doing just fine, and with overload I’m not missing any important skills, I get an extra five since I’m not abusing the third ultimate bug, it’s a great way to stow buffs. So keeping a few counters in my toolbox for the gankblades is sensible, there’s not much else to put there.

Unfortunately what you see today is 90% likely to make it to live as-is. We’ve asked for debuffs and buffs. We asked for more damage and a debuff on crystal frags. They gave us vitality of all things (why? On a shield stacking class with not HOT?) and damage on rune cage (why?! When unavoidable damage is bad?)

Think outside the box: maybe they're pushing less popular playstyles/builds to become viable with these kinds of changes? I'd love to make a healing/frost staff block based sorc build some day, but I don't think this change alone is enough (yet).

I'd love to see a debuff on crystal frags, especially something that helps magicka sorcerers against the unburstable tank builds that just create endless fights currently (you burst, they heal up, they burst, you shield up -repeat ad infinitum)


Glad to see you're finally agreeing that unavoidable damage is bad.

Minalan wrote: »

Who knows what they’re thinking anymore, other than pushing the heavy armor meta harder than ever? They’ll be the only ones to survive a curse/cage setup without purge or healing.

Exactly what I've been saying for the past few pages.

I'm not hating sorcerer, I'm hating skills that make other builds unviable/unfun to play. And I hate the feeling of being "pushed" to play some unoriginal, boring heavy armor tank build.
You may think builds like mine are the same and deserve all punishment they can get, but there are actual ways to prevent Asylum Snipe from instagibbing (e.g. keeping shields up 24/7, a friend of mine never drops them even when traveling between keeps).

I'd personally prefer type of stealth gameplay that doesn't focus around one shotting people (I used to love stunlocking people as rogue in vanilla WoW for example), but what we've got is what we've got.

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

And btw, good sorcerers are fine already on Live (might have something to do with them not filling their bars with multiple skills to counter one class when just one such skill would suffice) without overtuned skills that limit build diversity

No, they’re just stubborn and love their main chars. Big difference.

Are you telling me good sorcerers like Derra, Malcolm, Fasold etc aren't winning most of their fights?


Please, stop living in a bubble.

Master_Kas wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

Sorc burst is now what he aims to get nerfed, like power lash was last PTS.

What happened to your DK @DDuke ? Haven't seen you playing it in Cyro at all. You claimed it will be so strong now that you can powerlash more often. Perhaps dueling in Alkir under perfect conditions?

And ye two-three shotting people with Asylum bow from stealth is completely balanced.

Actually dueling on PTS with a new version that involves the new Siroria set, you'll see it next patch.

Damage is through the roof now with the new Combustion passive, as you don't need a single sustain set anymore (RIP Eyes of Mara, you will be missed).

I'll probably play that build a couple of weeks, wreck people in Cyrodiil, post a video & then go back to the playstyle I enjoy the most: stealth oriented high dmg NB.

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

You have "no problems" with nightblades, yet half your setup is to counter them? Mhm. Ok.

Minalan wrote: »

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

Yes, it would be NICE also if I could slot Magelight to power up a light attack, if I could slot some CC/area denial like Manifestation of Terror or a instant cast spammable like Crushing Weapon. But I can't, and I'm fine with that.

No offense, but it sounds to me like your build is so bad it'd need literally every skill in the game to perform adequately in PvP. Unfortunately there's a limit of 12 you can slot (17 with Overload).

Minalan wrote: »

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

You're mistaken, even if the patch goes Live as it is I'll still be one shotting people. I'll just get one shot in return with nothing I can do about it if I happen to become visible for a second, which kind of limits these builds to just ganking.

That's perfect, right? More opportunistic gankers stalking you until you're outnumbered & your shields are down... sounds fun /s

And btw, good sorcerers are fine already on Live (might have something to do with them not filling their bars with multiple skills to counter one class when just one such skill would suffice) without overtuned skills that limit build diversity

We were arguably fine before the nerfs to crystal frags.

Alright so much to answer, and this isn’t really worth the time to quote everything.

1. I could go with fewer nightblade specific counter skills, but let’s be honest, with how many of you there are in Cyrodiil - having a plethora of counters makes fighting you all more fun. If you fight good players you can’t depend on just *one* way/counter of beating them, so I keep my options open.

Plus, it’s not like I haven’t killed *other* classes with these skills. Boundless is a good defense and mobility regardless. Streak with the AOE CC and damage works on everyone. Defensive rune always stuns the first opponent to open up on me, it just works better on bow ganktards. They love it!

No, what you're doing is making your build worse by slotting multiple skills that serve the same purpose & sacrificing dmg/viability against other classes by doing so. Sigh... did I really have to explain that?

Minalan wrote: »

2. I don’t get what you’re saying, I should play the game with fewer than 12 skills? I’m bad because both bars are full? I just... I don’t even. You’re mad and not making sense. Calm down man.

I'm saying that you seem to expect some sort of entitlement to be able to perform everything on your build. I.e. "I don't want to slot skills X & Y to be strong against Nightblades, so I deserve to just one shot them with Rune Cage".

Here's a tip, totally free of charge: if you want to perform better on a sorc, start by making a well-rounded build. You don't need 4 skills to counter one class, you need just detection potions or streak.

On top of those, things you'd have anyway on your bar like Curse already make their lives difficult.


I'm having zero problems on my magicka sorcerer vs stamblades with just det pots slotted as "counter".

Minalan wrote: »

3. Sounds like an even trade off to me, everything in the game has to have a counter. I expect nightblades to fill the forums with tears, just like they did before. It’s the way of things.

Aha. So what's my counter to shield stacking on a high damage bow build? Don't tell me "slot Shield breaker or the new set", because that is garbage vs pretty much everything else.

A sorcerer doesn't need to slot any special gear or skills to "counter" non-tank builds on PTS, all they need to slot is Rune Cage (which is good vs every build).


So maybe ZOS should make fear remove dmg shields, just to put things into perspective for you?

Minalan wrote: »

4. I didn’t think nightblade needed any nerfs either, they just needed to fix the crit healing (a bug), and maybe make it so detect pot revealed nightblades couldn’t spam cloak to avoid getting hit by ranged attacks (which sounds like another bug to me). I’m not begging for incap or cloak nerfs. I didn’t think you guys really needed any other adjustments.

Right, nightblades didn't need any adjustments - apart from them being one-shottable with a skill that ignores their main defensive mechanic. After all, you don't need to nerf Incap or cloak when the stamblade never gets to use them... quite clever indeed.

You come across as such a serious d-bag it’s hard to take you serious here. Like you’re the *only* one here that knows how to build or play the game.

No need for name-calling.

I understand I may come across that way, but that is because I do tend to know what I'm talking about (ugh, d-bagness probably just intensified), which is why conflicting opinions aren't always treated with the dignity they deserve.

Minalan wrote: »

You’re arguing that your one shot nightblade build should be viable, and immune to be killed in one rotation. “I want to kill you easy with a one button macro, but no fair, you can’t do it to me!”

I see it the other way: you're here arguing it shouldn't be viable & deserves to get one shot even while playing defensively & making no play mistakes. Here's a little secret: burst from high dmg stamblade always has counters: dodge roll, block, stack shields - there's no guaranteed kills.

Sure, with my build Asylum Snipe is difficult (near impossible) to avoid if it comes from stealth, but even those scenarios you can avoid by either a) positioning better or b) keeping shields up.

Meanwhile, no amount of dodge rolling, Vigor spam or blocking saves you from Rune Cage burst.

Minalan wrote: »

I’ve heard every argument how much ‘skill’ it takes to nuke someone from stealth, and frankly I’m not convinced.

Well, there's a reason why most people fail at it. I'm not saying it takes a particularly high amount of skill, but certainly more so than playing an infinite regen rollerblade and waiting for Incap->Will to be up while not getting punished by any mistake thanks to infinite sustain & decent enough health pool/mitigation.
And certainly more so than pressing Rune Cage button at that non-tank build & then throwing a Frag proc out.

There's a reason why most people play rollerblades in PvP rather than dmg builds, let's just leave it at that before opening the can of worms that is "what is skill" in a game with no skill cooldowns or anything that'd actually require thinking.

Minalan wrote: »

My build is plenty well rounded. 47K Magicka, 19K stamina. I’m doing just fine, and with overload I’m not missing any important skills, I get an extra five since I’m not abusing the third ultimate bug, it’s a great way to stow buffs. So keeping a few counters in my toolbox for the gankblades is sensible, there’s not much else to put there.

Unfortunately what you see today is 90% likely to make it to live as-is. We’ve asked for debuffs and buffs. We asked for more damage and a debuff on crystal frags. They gave us vitality of all things (why? On a shield stacking class with not HOT?) and damage on rune cage (why?! When unavoidable damage is bad?)

Think outside the box: maybe they're pushing less popular playstyles/builds to become viable with these kinds of changes? I'd love to make a healing/frost staff block based sorc build some day, but I don't think this change alone is enough (yet).

I'd love to see a debuff on crystal frags, especially something that helps magicka sorcerers against the unburstable tank builds that just create endless fights currently (you burst, they heal up, they burst, you shield up -repeat ad infinitum)


Glad to see you're finally agreeing that unavoidable damage is bad.

Minalan wrote: »

Who knows what they’re thinking anymore, other than pushing the heavy armor meta harder than ever? They’ll be the only ones to survive a curse/cage setup without purge or healing.

Exactly what I've been saying for the past few pages.

I'm not hating sorcerer, I'm hating skills that make other builds unviable/unfun to play. And I hate the feeling of being "pushed" to play some unoriginal, boring heavy armor tank build.
You may think builds like mine are the same and deserve all punishment they can get, but there are actual ways to prevent Asylum Snipe from instagibbing (e.g. keeping shields up 24/7, a friend of mine never drops them even when traveling between keeps).

I'd personally prefer type of stealth gameplay that doesn't focus around one shotting people (I used to love stunlocking people as rogue in vanilla WoW for example), but what we've got is what we've got.

I’ll be more specific: unavoidable damage without a *delay* is bad. Curse is balanced because of the three seconds you can use to heal up and drink a potion. If they change the cage damage to a three second DOT, you’ll have time to vigor it off and hide.

I’m probably going to try an oblivion damage sload/knights build to see what it can do. My guess is, it will generate off the chart salt levels.

I also don’t think “one shot damage” type builds should even exist, and anybody running one doesn’t have much credibility to complain.

I mean, how does one avoid a one shot asylum bow gank? Keeping shields up 24/7, refreshing every 4 seconds or so? Roll dodging permanently? Holding down block walking between keeps? That’s not a reasonable counter and you know it.

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

And btw, good sorcerers are fine already on Live (might have something to do with them not filling their bars with multiple skills to counter one class when just one such skill would suffice) without overtuned skills that limit build diversity

No, they’re just stubborn and love their main chars. Big difference.

Are you telling me good sorcerers like Derra, Malcolm, Fasold etc aren't winning most of their fights?


Please, stop living in a bubble.

Master_Kas wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

Sorc burst is now what he aims to get nerfed, like power lash was last PTS.

What happened to your DK @DDuke ? Haven't seen you playing it in Cyro at all. You claimed it will be so strong now that you can powerlash more often. Perhaps dueling in Alkir under perfect conditions?

And ye two-three shotting people with Asylum bow from stealth is completely balanced.

Actually dueling on PTS with a new version that involves the new Siroria set, you'll see it next patch.

Damage is through the roof now with the new Combustion passive, as you don't need a single sustain set anymore (RIP Eyes of Mara, you will be missed).

I'll probably play that build a couple of weeks, wreck people in Cyrodiil, post a video & then go back to the playstyle I enjoy the most: stealth oriented high dmg NB.

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

The sorc dies in one shot if you land your combo properly.

The issue you take is that the sorc does not die while they actively defend against it - yet you do because your defense gets countered.

Yes, nailed it.

It's the same as undodgeable Power Lashes were, they'd get a guaranteed kill on non-tank builds & the mDK using them wouldn't die to those non-tank builds while playing defensively.

I.e. you have one build overperforming compared to the other.

Derra wrote: »

The problem with that approach is that your high dmg build combos from invisibility in which you can spend infinite amounts of time - contrary to sorc burst which is highly telegraphed and the sorc is visibible from beginning for a period of atleast 5s for the whole combo (countercc works here and you will not die).

Stealth really doesn't matter, that sorc could just as well be sneaking & drop a Curse->Rune Cage+Frag on a non-tank build to the same effect. The difference is that most sorc players don't choose to play that way, nor do they have to (like high damage medium builds do).

That bit about CC before sorc drops combo sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice, i.e. 1vX & when you can't see the sorc, or when you're out of range to CC as not everyone has the luxury of having 28m undodgeable unblockable CCs.

Also things like CC immunity pots (or just CC immunity from a pug trying to kill that sorc) kinda screw up those plans.


It's not possible to survive vs a magicka sorc as a non-tank medium build on PTS, period.

Also: Instead of running a one shot damage class, and demanding the devs career to your crappy playstyle. Maybe you could try, you know. Adding a little more health and defense to your build?

I mean, it’s people like you that force me to wear 7 impen just to walk outside without an instant gank. Maybe it’s time for you to change your effing build for a change? I’d love to wear divines (and you’d like it too) and be a higher burst build. But I can’t, can I?

The devs removed empower this patch, maybe they intend glass cannon one-shot nightblade builds to die off this patch because they’re complete BS?

Throw on troll king and a little health and you’ll probably be fine. You will lose some damage, but that’s how the game works.

Lmao, so triggered.

I'm not having problems with my build on Live or crying about how weak my class/build is, so why would I change my playstyle? It's working perfectly fine.

What I'm not OK with is being forced to change a perfectly fine, functioning playstyle that isn't even meta (like tank/sustain builds are) just to counter undodgeable/unblockable 28m range skill with 9-10k tooltip. Nope, not going to happen.


So if you're having problems on Live with your sorcerer, maybe you're the one who should change the build? There are plenty of sorcerers on PC EU that are doing fine in all forms of PvP.

P.S. I've got 4x Well-Fitted 3x Impen on bow build & my melee high damage build runs 7x Impen. 125 Weapon Damage (less than one set bonus) isn't worth 27% crit resistance, or 20% dodge roll/sprint cost reduction. Not even if the purpose of your build is to burst people down fast (or stack shields, as Sorcerer). Which you'd know, if you were any good at the game.

P.P.S. The change to Empower is a buff to majority of gank builds. Asylum Snipe builds never ran Empower because it buffs up Bombard or Light Attack & Overload gank builds are now getting 40% stronger Overloads rather than 20%.
No wonder you have issues on sorc when you have no idea on how to theorycraft a strong build.

I have no real problems with nightblades, it’s a little tiring though when EVERYONE is playing a nightblade, and half of my skills and setup are to counter you specifically: defensive rune, detect pots, streak instead of BoL, mage light, boundless storm, and soul assault (for that two-second burst damage shot that always hits).

You have "no problems" with nightblades, yet half your setup is to counter them? Mhm. Ok.

Minalan wrote: »

However - It’ll be NICE to change a few things to counter people OTHER than just endless ganking night blades. I can use BoL instead of streak to counter light attacks and overload. I can drop mage light for mines, and boundless for acceleration. I won’t have to use soul assault..

Yes, it would be NICE also if I could slot Magelight to power up a light attack, if I could slot some CC/area denial like Manifestation of Terror or a instant cast spammable like Crushing Weapon. But I can't, and I'm fine with that.

No offense, but it sounds to me like your build is so bad it'd need literally every skill in the game to perform adequately in PvP. Unfortunately there's a limit of 12 you can slot (17 with Overload).

Minalan wrote: »

My build will improve dramatically, yours is going to lose a little damage for survivability. You won’t be one shotting people anymore, you’ll have to keep recloaking, teleport to your shade and heal. You’ll have to think and actually use skill instead of killing someone before they can stand up.

The good nightblades are going to be fine.

You're mistaken, even if the patch goes Live as it is I'll still be one shotting people. I'll just get one shot in return with nothing I can do about it if I happen to become visible for a second, which kind of limits these builds to just ganking.

That's perfect, right? More opportunistic gankers stalking you until you're outnumbered & your shields are down... sounds fun /s

And btw, good sorcerers are fine already on Live (might have something to do with them not filling their bars with multiple skills to counter one class when just one such skill would suffice) without overtuned skills that limit build diversity

We were arguably fine before the nerfs to crystal frags.

Alright so much to answer, and this isn’t really worth the time to quote everything.

1. I could go with fewer nightblade specific counter skills, but let’s be honest, with how many of you there are in Cyrodiil - having a plethora of counters makes fighting you all more fun. If you fight good players you can’t depend on just *one* way/counter of beating them, so I keep my options open.

Plus, it’s not like I haven’t killed *other* classes with these skills. Boundless is a good defense and mobility regardless. Streak with the AOE CC and damage works on everyone. Defensive rune always stuns the first opponent to open up on me, it just works better on bow ganktards. They love it!

No, what you're doing is making your build worse by slotting multiple skills that serve the same purpose & sacrificing dmg/viability against other classes by doing so. Sigh... did I really have to explain that?

Minalan wrote: »

2. I don’t get what you’re saying, I should play the game with fewer than 12 skills? I’m bad because both bars are full? I just... I don’t even. You’re mad and not making sense. Calm down man.

I'm saying that you seem to expect some sort of entitlement to be able to perform everything on your build. I.e. "I don't want to slot skills X & Y to be strong against Nightblades, so I deserve to just one shot them with Rune Cage".

Here's a tip, totally free of charge: if you want to perform better on a sorc, start by making a well-rounded build. You don't need 4 skills to counter one class, you need just detection potions or streak.

On top of those, things you'd have anyway on your bar like Curse already make their lives difficult.


I'm having zero problems on my magicka sorcerer vs stamblades with just det pots slotted as "counter".

Minalan wrote: »

3. Sounds like an even trade off to me, everything in the game has to have a counter. I expect nightblades to fill the forums with tears, just like they did before. It’s the way of things.

Aha. So what's my counter to shield stacking on a high damage bow build? Don't tell me "slot Shield breaker or the new set", because that is garbage vs pretty much everything else.

A sorcerer doesn't need to slot any special gear or skills to "counter" non-tank builds on PTS, all they need to slot is Rune Cage (which is good vs every build).


So maybe ZOS should make fear remove dmg shields, just to put things into perspective for you?

Minalan wrote: »

4. I didn’t think nightblade needed any nerfs either, they just needed to fix the crit healing (a bug), and maybe make it so detect pot revealed nightblades couldn’t spam cloak to avoid getting hit by ranged attacks (which sounds like another bug to me). I’m not begging for incap or cloak nerfs. I didn’t think you guys really needed any other adjustments.

Right, nightblades didn't need any adjustments - apart from them being one-shottable with a skill that ignores their main defensive mechanic. After all, you don't need to nerf Incap or cloak when the stamblade never gets to use them... quite clever indeed.

You come across as such a serious d-bag it’s hard to take you serious here. Like you’re the *only* one here that knows how to build or play the game.

No need for name-calling.

I understand I may come across that way, but that is because I do tend to know what I'm talking about (ugh, d-bagness probably just intensified), which is why conflicting opinions aren't always treated with the dignity they deserve.

Minalan wrote: »

You’re arguing that your one shot nightblade build should be viable, and immune to be killed in one rotation. “I want to kill you easy with a one button macro, but no fair, you can’t do it to me!”

I see it the other way: you're here arguing it shouldn't be viable & deserves to get one shot even while playing defensively & making no play mistakes. Here's a little secret: burst from high dmg stamblade always has counters: dodge roll, block, stack shields - there's no guaranteed kills.

Sure, with my build Asylum Snipe is difficult (near impossible) to avoid if it comes from stealth, but even those scenarios you can avoid by either a) positioning better or b) keeping shields up.

Meanwhile, no amount of dodge rolling, Vigor spam or blocking saves you from Rune Cage burst.

Minalan wrote: »

I’ve heard every argument how much ‘skill’ it takes to nuke someone from stealth, and frankly I’m not convinced.

Well, there's a reason why most people fail at it. I'm not saying it takes a particularly high amount of skill, but certainly more so than playing an infinite regen rollerblade and waiting for Incap->Will to be up while not getting punished by any mistake thanks to infinite sustain & decent enough health pool/mitigation.
And certainly more so than pressing Rune Cage button at that non-tank build & then throwing a Frag proc out.

There's a reason why most people play rollerblades in PvP rather than dmg builds, let's just leave it at that before opening the can of worms that is "what is skill" in a game with no skill cooldowns or anything that'd actually require thinking.

Minalan wrote: »

My build is plenty well rounded. 47K Magicka, 19K stamina. I’m doing just fine, and with overload I’m not missing any important skills, I get an extra five since I’m not abusing the third ultimate bug, it’s a great way to stow buffs. So keeping a few counters in my toolbox for the gankblades is sensible, there’s not much else to put there.

Unfortunately what you see today is 90% likely to make it to live as-is. We’ve asked for debuffs and buffs. We asked for more damage and a debuff on crystal frags. They gave us vitality of all things (why? On a shield stacking class with not HOT?) and damage on rune cage (why?! When unavoidable damage is bad?)

Think outside the box: maybe they're pushing less popular playstyles/builds to become viable with these kinds of changes? I'd love to make a healing/frost staff block based sorc build some day, but I don't think this change alone is enough (yet).

I'd love to see a debuff on crystal frags, especially something that helps magicka sorcerers against the unburstable tank builds that just create endless fights currently (you burst, they heal up, they burst, you shield up -repeat ad infinitum)


Glad to see you're finally agreeing that unavoidable damage is bad.

Minalan wrote: »

Who knows what they’re thinking anymore, other than pushing the heavy armor meta harder than ever? They’ll be the only ones to survive a curse/cage setup without purge or healing.

Exactly what I've been saying for the past few pages.

I'm not hating sorcerer, I'm hating skills that make other builds unviable/unfun to play. And I hate the feeling of being "pushed" to play some unoriginal, boring heavy armor tank build.
You may think builds like mine are the same and deserve all punishment they can get, but there are actual ways to prevent Asylum Snipe from instagibbing (e.g. keeping shields up 24/7, a friend of mine never drops them even when traveling between keeps).

I'd personally prefer type of stealth gameplay that doesn't focus around one shotting people (I used to love stunlocking people as rogue in vanilla WoW for example), but what we've got is what we've got.

I’ll be more specific: unavoidable damage without a *delay* is bad. Curse is balanced because of the three seconds you can use to heal up and drink a potion. If they change the cage damage to a three second DOT, you’ll have time to vigor it off and hide.

I’m probably going to try an oblivion damage sload/knights build to see what it can do. My guess is, it will generate off the chart salt levels.

I also don’t think “one shot damage” type builds should even exist, and anybody running one doesn’t have much credibility to complain.

I mean, how does one avoid a one shot asylum bow gank? Keeping shields up 24/7, refreshing every 4 seconds or so? Roll dodging permanently? Holding down block walking between keeps? That’s not a reasonable counter and you know it.

There's a lot more "one shot damage" builds than mine, even the typical rollerblade is built that way (dodge dodge dodge cloak cloak dodge dodge dodge & instagib with Incap->Relentless). Mine just does that from stealth & aims to end fights quicker because the build doesn't have infinite regen.

Most sorc builds also aim to combo multiple skills at the same time to burst people down (so they don't have time to instantly heal/shield up after taking damage), same with magicka NBs (Incap->Merciless) & I'm sure plenty of other builds for other classes out there. Most of those builds have more burst than Asylum Bow btw (but require more setup).

You might be right about keeping shields up 24/7 being tedious, but doing that doesn't prevent just Asylum Bow ganks - it prevents all ganks (I can do the same with Dark Flare Jav Jbeam Gankplar or Overload Sorc).

I wish there was a better, more viable way to incorporate stealth into my gameplay than one shotting unprepared people from it, but there isn't.

Most other attempts at building a stamblade end up creating a rollerblade or some heavy armor Legion+Duroks bleedblade, which I have no interest in playing. I've had some limited success on a DW/Bow high dmg stamblade with 2x Selene 5x Poisonous Serpent 5x Sheer Venom & Master's Bow but... that also revolves around one shotting people from cloak (DW Heavy+Surprise Attack stun into Incap with 57.3% chance of proccing Selene with that combo, which lands thanks to the CC & gets +20% dmg along with all the DoT ticks).