Shieldbreaker and oblivion damage in general

ToRelax · April 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

.

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

So, does that mean you can create and play a competitive mag Sorc build that doesn't rely on stacking shields, isn't countered by Shieldbreaker and doesn't just wander around doing nothing?

Yes.

Please elaborate on your build, then? I know you think that, but I can't discuss it without information what makes you think that way.

WhipSmartMcoy wrote: »

Shield breaker procs from light attacks! Every time I hear that audio cue from SB I just gun down whoever is trying. If you can't kill someone with skills before they LA spam you to death then idk what to say

1.) They could be competent
2.) They could be outnumbering you

Usually it's the latter. Usually some NB trying to stay at range in Cloak until they see me at half health, because they know they're not good enough to survive if I focus them yet a gear set and light attacks is all that is needed to force me to either bursting them down or backing off.

In case they are skilled - which, believe it or not, hasn't been that uncommon once upon a time - I can either gtfo or die.

Mayrael · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
*Insert Paarthunax quote here*

That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

Hah so much this. It's awesome that you can admit you were wrong... And yes, most of the forum fighters don't know even their main toons good enough to post here, but they know the best how to play other characters. Good to see that this is not always the case

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2018

Shield Breaker is balanced. I have a stamina and magic DPS of all classes as well as a tank/tanky build for all classes. Is it strong vs a shield hell yes no question about it. But that’s the point it should be shields are very strong even with the short timer. No crit or secondary effects shields are very strong. If you build with just a little bit of health and two pieces of heavy does a lot.

Shield breaker is only strong if shields are you sole defense. Low heath, resistance and or stamina is normal for most magic builds.

ToRelax · April 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Shield Breaker is balanced. I have a stamina and magic DPS of all classes as well as a tank/tanky build for all classes. Is it strong vs a shield hell yes no question about it. But that’s the point it should be shields are very strong even with the short timer. No crit or secondary effects shields are very strong. If you build with just a little bit of health and two pieces of heavy does a lot.

Shield breaker is only strong if shields are you sole defense. Low heath, resistance and or stamina is normal for most magic builds.

What a load of crap. To counter it you need HoTs, possibly a non-shield based burst heal and pets also help (as well as giving you that heal).
Max health, stamina and resistances slightly increase the time you have to burst down the Shieldbreaker user without shields up.

IAVITNI · April 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

It sounds like you’ve never played against shield breaker.

Hard counters should never exist in a game. It’s poor game design. Players should lose due to lack of skill/ game knowledge, not to sets alone.

Sure those that run SB are sacrificing a lot stat wise but it’s unfair for shield users to fight them because there is literally nothing you can do but run. Just because only a portion of people are suffering doesn’t make the suffering tolerable. There is 0 counter play, which should never exist in a game.

In point of fact, I have run up against players using Shieldbreaker on my Sorc. They left very disappointed, and smeared across the walls because I don't get my survivability from stacking shields.

Someone gave up their 5pc bonus to specifically counter a cheese build. That's fine. I mean, sucks for you, but, if you're mindlessly stacking shields and screaming, "I'm invincible!" that was never particularly impressive.

I'd hardly consider shield users a "cheese" build especially since it is the intended defensive mechanic of the class. Sorcs don't have strong heals or inherent tankiness that other class have, nor do they have a defensive mechanic like cloak.

I play every class and sorc defensive mechanics are no more cheese than any other competitive spec out there. The only class that I struggle with against sorcs in a 1v1 is my stamblade, and that's only against players of better skill because it's built as a ganker. I know how (and have) adapted to beat sorcs. It's really not that hard. If you think that shield is a "cheese" that makes one invincible, I really don't know what to say. I've busted down 45k magicka stacked shields on pretty much every class (stam and mag) but that was due to patience and game knowledge, not Light Attack->Cloak->Light Attack etc.

No other class has such a hard counter to their primary defensive mechanic. No other defensive mechanic has a hard counter.

SirSocke · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

No other class has such a hard counter to their primary defensive mechanic. No other defensive mechanic has a hard counter.

Ok, what about magelight, mark and pots against cloak? What about CC against blocking? What about undodgeable Skills against dodging?

ToRelax · April 2018

Yeah, there are other hard counters in the game, but usually against a mechanic like Cloak that can't be mitigated without negating it.
There are no others countering both the main defensive mechanic and heal of a build, however.

manny254 · April 2018

Could we just rebalance shields to not make the devs not think you need a 5pc bonus to counter them? I still can't believe casting a shield nullifies every possible crit bonus in the game.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2018

manny254 wrote: »

Could we just rebalance shields to not make the devs not think you need a 5pc bonus to counter them? I still can't believe casting a shield nullifies every possible crit bonus in the game.

Ya ya. No Crits and no status effects. We know. But do you know the other sides as well or do you stop there?

Shields don’t reward the caster for having resistances / impen. However, they reward opponents with penetation lower than the casters mitigation.
Shields don’t reward the casters for their own crit chance and ratings. They don’t reward them for their spell dmg. They only and solely take into account how high your max stat (in this case mainly magika, sometimes health but that’s not the issue itt). And cp, if you play with them - but you know, there is shattering blows and noCP as well.
So, out of the following stats, only one counts: resource, damage, crit chance, crit rating, physical mitigation, spell mitigation, crit resistance.
You now could either argue that they only need to build for max mag (and regen) or that most of their stats won’t help them with their defense while still needed for their offense and passive defense once shields are down (and therefor can’t be completely ignored). You decide.

Maulkin · April 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Shield Breaker is balanced. I have a stamina and magic DPS of all classes as well as a tank/tanky build for all classes. Is it strong vs a shield hell yes no question about it. But that’s the point it should be shields are very strong even with the short timer. No crit or secondary effects shields are very strong. If you build with just a little bit of health and two pieces of heavy does a lot.

Shield breaker is only strong if shields are you sole defense. Low heath, resistance and or stamina is normal for most magic builds.

What does shield breaker, which deals unmitigated oblivion damage, have to do with 2 heavy pieces, resistances and your HP pool? Holy crap, this nonsense.

I love how people that presumably hardly ever play MagSorc, tell you to build a tanky build that counters shield breaker. As if 4 years of game history and countless people trying and failing, is not an an indication that you can't build a competitive heavy armour MagSorc that does not rely on wards.

Newsflash: the class is not MagBlade or MagDK, it has has no fecking HoTs or spammables

But I'm sure Mr. @kendellking_chaosb14_ESO is the first one to have managed it and he's about to share a video any minute now of his godly self wrecking anyone and everyone (incl. shield-breaker users) with his mighty tanky sorc in 2-piece heavy.

I'll wait.

Feanor · April 2018

@Maulkin

Logic doesn’t apply to #nerfSorc threads. It’s the basic principle of these threads. Shields OP, best burst, best mobility. That has been the mantra since a certain player streaked from Aleswell to Fare with 40k wards. So the legends told at the fireplace tell at least...

BohnT · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Maulkin

Logic doesn’t apply to #nerfSorc threads. It’s the basic principle of these threads. Shields OP, best burst, best mobility. That has been the mantra since a certain player streaked from Aleswell to Fare with 40k wards. So the legends told at the fireplace tell at least...

To be honest it doesn't apply to #buffsorc threads either. Because the same archetype of players are found on both sides: inexperienced/ biased players dreaming of a time when things were much easier due to imbalances that can also be found on most Magdk posts from the glorious times in the past.

But when looking rational at the classes there is only one spec that is really behind anything else and that is Stamdk. All other classes are more or less viable with 2 specs being overperfoming atm stamwarden and stamnb by a small margin.

Feanor · April 2018

@BohnT

When was the last time you died to a Sorc on your stamNB other than getting zerged?

BohnT · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

When was the last time you died to a Sorc on your stamNB other than getting zerged?

Same question with classes swapped.

Answer for both is when i did a mistake stamnb vs magsorc is such an intresting fight. In OW (no duel builds) it's almost always decided by skill and mistakes.

The magsorc can keep the nb out of meele range with mines but won't kill a decent nb if the nb plays defensively on the other side the nb can't kill the sorc from range and going meele is a huge risk.

Mayrael · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Maulkin

Logic doesn’t apply to #nerfSorc threads. It’s the basic principle of these threads. Shields OP, best burst, best mobility. That has been the mantra since a certain player streaked from Aleswell to Fare with 40k wards. So the legends told at the fireplace tell at least...

To be honest it doesn't apply to #buffsorc threads either. Because the same archetype of players are found on both sides: inexperienced/ biased players dreaming of a time when things were much easier due to imbalances that can also be found on most Magdk posts from the glorious times in the past.

But when looking rational at the classes there is only one spec that is really behind anything else and that is Stamdk. All other classes are more or less viable with 2 specs being overperfoming atm stamwarden and stamnb by a small margin.

Maybe but magsorc is THE ONLY CLASS that can be hard countered with one or even two sets now AND can't do anything about that except of TRYING to escape, because when gap closed constantly magsorc has no chances to escape unless there is some nice LoS possibility.

BohnT · April 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Maulkin

Logic doesn’t apply to #nerfSorc threads. It’s the basic principle of these threads. Shields OP, best burst, best mobility. That has been the mantra since a certain player streaked from Aleswell to Fare with 40k wards. So the legends told at the fireplace tell at least...

To be honest it doesn't apply to #buffsorc threads either. Because the same archetype of players are found on both sides: inexperienced/ biased players dreaming of a time when things were much easier due to imbalances that can also be found on most Magdk posts from the glorious times in the past.

But when looking rational at the classes there is only one spec that is really behind anything else and that is Stamdk. All other classes are more or less viable with 2 specs being overperfoming atm stamwarden and stamnb by a small margin.

Maybe but magsorc is THE ONLY CLASS that can be hard countered with one or even two sets now AND can't do anything about that except of TRYING to escape, because when gap closed constantly magsorc has no chances to escape unless there is some nice LoS possibility.

That's why we have this post here to get rid of those 2 sets and their function as a hardcounter

Feanor · April 2018

@BohnT

Not everyone loves mine camping though. It’s one of the most boring play styles I can imagine.

BohnT · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Not everyone loves mine camping though. It’s one of the most boring play styles I can imagine.

But it's effective and for me few things are more fun than baiting that nb until he tries to ambush me and he just blows up

Feanor · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Not everyone loves mine camping though. It’s one of the most boring play styles I can imagine.

But it's effective and for me few things are more fun than baiting that nb until he tries to ambush me and he just blows up

I dare say that those who take the bait are the ones you can beat easily anyway

Maryal · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Maulkin

Logic doesn’t apply to #nerfSorc threads. It’s the basic principle of these threads. Shields OP, best burst, best mobility. That has been the mantra since a certain player streaked from Aleswell to Fare with 40k wards. So the legends told at the fireplace tell at least...

To be honest it doesn't apply to #buffsorc threads either. Because the same archetype of players are found on both sides: inexperienced/ biased players dreaming of a time when things were much easier due to imbalances that can also be found on most Magdk posts from the glorious times in the past.

But when looking rational at the classes there is only one spec that is really behind anything else and that is Stamdk. All other classes are more or less viable with 2 specs being overperfoming atm stamwarden and stamnb by a small margin.

Maybe but magsorc is THE ONLY CLASS that can be hard countered with one or even two sets now AND can't do anything about that except of TRYING to escape, because when gap closed constantly magsorc has no chances to escape unless there is some nice LoS possibility.

That's why we have this post here to get rid of those 2 sets and their function as a hardcounter

I can think of several ways where a quick-thinking sorc with the Psijic skill line will easily be able to 'hard counter' the 'hard counter' ... LOL ... it's going to be lots of fun for everyone!

Murador178 · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

When was the last time you died to a Sorc on your stamNB other than getting zerged?

Same question with classes swapped.

Answer for both is when i did a mistake stamnb vs magsorc is such an intresting fight. In OW (no duel builds) it's almost always decided by skill and mistakes.

The magsorc can keep the nb out of meele range with mines but won't kill a decent nb if the nb plays defensively on the other side the nb can't kill the sorc from range and going meele is a huge risk.

Its more like always tie in openworld builds with good players. And yes i play both sides - so for sure more stamblade^^

Hardcounters like shieldbreaker (that new proc on the pts will be very funny vs sorc AND IT WORKS vs everybody - its crafted viper doing oblivion ), full defile stack, procs/spells through dodgeroll, mark target vs nbs and so on could all need some changes. My main issue with most builds is the lack of reactive gameplay.

BohnT · April 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

When was the last time you died to a Sorc on your stamNB other than getting zerged?

Same question with classes swapped.

Answer for both is when i did a mistake stamnb vs magsorc is such an intresting fight. In OW (no duel builds) it's almost always decided by skill and mistakes.

The magsorc can keep the nb out of meele range with mines but won't kill a decent nb if the nb plays defensively on the other side the nb can't kill the sorc from range and going meele is a huge risk.

Its more like always tie in openworld builds with good players. And yes i play both sides - so for sure more stamblade^^

Well a tie atleast implies that we have decent balance in this match up.
I don't like it when you can force kills in 1v1, i'm fine with people dieing that's needed in a pvp game but when you die even though you made no mistakes (except for running the wrong class in this match up) it's pretty frustrating

IAVITNI · April 2018

SirSocke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

No other class has such a hard counter to their primary defensive mechanic. No other defensive mechanic has a hard counter.

Ok, what about magelight, mark and pots against cloak? What about CC against blocking? What about undodgeable Skills against dodging?

A sorcs (and a good portion of magblades) ONLY defence is shields. It's already been mathematically shown that any HoTs a sorc can put out cannot outheal SB and if you're spamming roll dodge on a magicka class you're gonna die in 3 rolls.

If you give sorcs an actual way to heal (Entropy and crit surge and even dark deal on top of that are not enough) than sure, but right now a sorc can do nothing but run from SB.

BohnT · April 2018

Why was this post removed from Pts forum?
It's a problem that has to be looked at on the PTS

thankyourat · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Not everyone loves mine camping though. It’s one of the most boring play styles I can imagine.

But it is available I mine camp everyone when I play sorc it's really the only time I get hate mail lol. It's very effective.

BohnT wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

When was the last time you died to a Sorc on your stamNB other than getting zerged?

Same question with classes swapped.

Answer for both is when i did a mistake stamnb vs magsorc is such an intresting fight. In OW (no duel builds) it's almost always decided by skill and mistakes.

The magsorc can keep the nb out of meele range with mines but won't kill a decent nb if the nb plays defensively on the other side the nb can't kill the sorc from range and going meele is a huge risk.

Its more like always tie in openworld builds with good players. And yes i play both sides - so for sure more stamblade^^

Well a tie atleast implies that we have decent balance in this match up.
I don't like it when you can force kills in 1v1, i'm fine with people dieing that's needed in a pvp game but when you die even though you made no mistakes (except for running the wrong class in this match up) it's pretty frustrating

Nerf wings

Gilvoth · April 2018

this thread again?
shield spamming sorcerers are simply overpowered and unkillable tanks, this set was made to balance that out and isn't even that strong and takes a long time because it is infact only light attacks that are being used and it takes a long time to light attack shield spam sorc to death and many times the sorc kills you while trying to kill them, if anything the damage should be buffed.

sorcerers right now just as allways since shield breaker was made ARE killing people that wear shield breaker set.
right now in cryodiil you will find sorcerers killing people with shield breaker set just as often as sorcerers dying to people wearing the shield breaker set.

the set was made to balance out shield spamming sorcs
i fought a sorc last night that was not using shields as his main defence and he did just fine, it was a normal fight. the only thing this shield breaker set does is light attack slowly and takes forever but eventually brings down those stacked shields, just like it is suppose to do. it is only light attacks, and if you keep shield spamming and not fighting then the set works as intended.

right now just as allways if sorcs shield stack their pretty much unkillable unless you have a zerg, so the devs made this set to counter that, and it works properly and is balanced, it is not new and has been around for a few years, so its not like this was a new concept that wasnt thought out, it is thought out well and works like it is suppose to, everything is the same as it was when the shield breaker set was made, and we dont have any way of killing shield stacking sorcerers without it.

every day these same guys makes new nerf threads that very few people agree with and they try to keep these threads on the top by spamming back and forth bickering in them, to make the thread stay on the top of the list. we shouldnt have to defend the same topics every single day from the same people who spamm these same threads daily.
it is very boring, and is getting really old.
please stop making these kinds of nerf threads.

BohnT · April 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this thread again?
shield spamming sorcerers are simply overpowered and unkillable tanks, this set was made to balance that out and isn't even that strong and takes a long time because it is infact only light attacks that are being used and it takes a long time to light attack shield spam sorc to death and many times the sorc kills you while trying to kill them, if anything the damage should be buffed.

sorcerers right now just as allways since shield breaker was made ARE killing people that wear shield breaker set.
right now in cryodiil you will find sorcerers killing people with shield breaker set just as often as sorcerers dying to people wearing the shield breaker set.

the set was made to balance out shield spamming sorcs
i fought a sorc last night that was not using shields as his main defence and he did just fine, it was a normal fight. the only thing this shield breaker set does is light attack slowly and takes forever but eventually brings down those stacked shields, just like it is suppose to do. it is only light attacks, and if you keep shield spamming and not fighting then the set works as intended.

right now just as allways if sorcs shield stack their pretty much unkillable unless you have a zerg, so the devs made this set to counter that, and it works properly and is balanced, it is not new and has been around for a few years, so its not like this was a new concept that wasnt thought out, it is thought out well and works like it is suppose to, everything is the same as it was when the shield breaker set was made, and we dont have any way of killing shield stacking sorcerers without it.

every day these same guys makes new nerf threads that very few people agree with and they try to keep these threads on the top by spamming back and forth bickering in them, to make the thread stay on the top of the list. we shouldnt have to defend the same topics every single day from the same people who spamm these same threads daily.
it is very boring, and is getting really old.
please stop making these kinds of nerf threads.

Why don't you reroll a sorc then if it's so strong just play them if they are so overperfoming compared to your stamnb.

i will make a new char on PC NA and i will duel you with my 400+ latency with shieldbreaker, should be easy for you to win that fight right?

Gilvoth · April 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

every day these same guys makes new nerf threads that very few people agree with and they try to keep these threads on the top by spamming back and forth bickering in them, to make the thread stay on the top of the list. we shouldnt have to defend the same topics every single day from the same people who spamm these same threads daily.
it is very boring, and is getting really old.
please stop making these kinds of nerf threads.

this ^

ak_pvp · April 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

every day these same guys makes new nerf threads that very few people agree with and they try to keep these threads on the top by spamming back and forth bickering in them, to make the thread stay on the top of the list. we shouldnt have to defend the same topics every single day from the same people who spamm these same threads daily.
it is very boring, and is getting really old.
please stop making these kinds of nerf threads.

this ^

Did you just "this" yourself. Haha what.

Gilvoth · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

every day these same guys makes new nerf threads that very few people agree with and they try to keep these threads on the top by spamming back and forth bickering in them, to make the thread stay on the top of the list. we shouldnt have to defend the same topics every single day from the same people who spamm these same threads daily.
it is very boring, and is getting really old.
please stop making these kinds of nerf threads.

this ^

Did you just "this" yourself. Haha what.

read what i said in that quote ...
seriously ...

here ill put it right here:

every day these same guys makes new nerf threads that very few people agree with and they try to keep these threads on the top by spamming back and forth bickering in them, to make the thread stay on the top of the list. we shouldnt have to defend the same topics every single day from the same people who spamm these same threads daily.
it is very boring, and is getting really old.
please stop making these kinds of nerf threads.

if you read that you will see what im trying to say and maybe help you guys in some way to stop.

i hope.