Shieldbreaker and oblivion damage in general

BohnT

starkerealm wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

This set is not dependent on the target relying only on shields as their defense.

And it becomes dead weight if you don't rely on shields.

Magsorc has to rely on shields or you play an completely outclassed build that dies way more often just to survive vs one special set that hardcounters the viable builds.

Also just by using the set you completely remove the ability of your enemy to use any shields as you get punished way too hard just because someone slotted a 5pc set

Ragnarock41

Why not just remove shieldbreaker entirely, and nerf shields properly so that we don't have to fight 20k shields+mines spam?

I don't understand this mentality, letting stupid playstyles exist, and then adding even more stupid sets to counter them in a stupid way.
like, why not just properly balance things in the first place.

starkerealm

BohnT wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

This set is not dependent on the target relying only on shields as their defense.

And it becomes dead weight if you don't rely on shields.

Magsorc has to rely on shields or you play an completely outclassed build that dies way more often just to survive vs one special set that hardcounters the viable builds.

Also just by using the set you completely remove the ability of your enemy to use any shields as you get punished way too hard just because someone slotted a 5pc set

Maybe you should be punished for cheesing the system to give a DPS the survivability of a tank. Just, you know, a thought.

starkerealm

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Why not just remove shieldbreaker entirely, and nerf shields properly so that we don't have to fight 20k shields+mines spam?

I don't understand this mentality, letting stupid playstyles exist, and then adding even more stupid sets to counter them in a stupid way.
like, why not just properly balance things in the first place.

Or, you know, make it so shields only absorb a percentage of incoming damage.

Gilvoth

Feanor wrote: »

The thread is highly entertaining. Like every topic that involves Sorcs it doesn’t fail to deliver on the hilarious end of the spectrum. I won’t enter that discussion, because frankly, been there, done that. You simply won’t convince anyone who has “shields OP” as one of his most firm beliefs that SB is a bad idea. You can give all the numbers you want, point out the shortcomings of all the available HoTs, the ability to be abused in Xv1 scenarios specifically, and the fact you can run it on your bow bar only - you’ll just get done ridiculous answers that boil down to play a tank in HA.

What I find so amusing:

People on here always claim how easy it is to counter and that you’re just a scrub if you can’t. It’s almost like the set needed buffs if you read the answers. Yet the dichotomy how it gets defended in full force mode is a striking one. You’d expect that a set that is easy to counter is no loss if it gets ditched. That people angrily defend the set instead is the biggest proof it’s a problematic set - otherwise it wouldn’t be so.

that's a bunch of bullmolarky, if what you are saying was true then i would be able to kill ALL sorcerers and that is just not happening.
we told you repeatedly that if you shield stack then this set simply kills the shield, nothing more.
in addition to that it takes along time to kill people because it is only light attacks doing that damage and only to shields and that damage is only 2500 per light atack hit and with you healing and spaming the shields repeatedly that takes a long time.
the set is balanced. and it has been balanced for Years, its not new and needs rethought its the same old set that does the same old thing

makes fighting shield spamming sorcerers balanced and a fair fight.

please stop spamming this thread with false information.

Gilvoth

its the same people spamming the same messages in this thread to keep it alive and bury the comments showing the truth about this set and lies about this set over and over and over.

Emma_Overload

starkerealm wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Why not just remove shieldbreaker entirely, and nerf shields properly so that we don't have to fight 20k shields+mines spam?

I don't understand this mentality, letting stupid playstyles exist, and then adding even more stupid sets to counter them in a stupid way.
like, why not just properly balance things in the first place.

Or, you know, make it so shields only absorb a percentage of incoming damage.

Then you would have to shield AND heal... where is the room on a Sorc back bar for all that?

Ragnarock41

starkerealm wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Why not just remove shieldbreaker entirely, and nerf shields properly so that we don't have to fight 20k shields+mines spam?

I don't understand this mentality, letting stupid playstyles exist, and then adding even more stupid sets to counter them in a stupid way.
like, why not just properly balance things in the first place.

Or, you know, make it so shields only absorb a percentage of incoming damage.

that could also work, make shields not absorb %100 when the attacker has a lot of penetration. but that being said it would create more balancing issues. If only they designed it better from the start...

pieratsos

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. Scaling with stats and amplified with CP are two entirely different things. The fact that proc sets perform way better in no CP campaigns should be enough to tell you everything you need to know about procs and scaling. I also fail to see your point with shattering blows. It has nothing to do with what i told you.

Okay, here's a novel thought. If you're dealing with a proc set, that by your definition is over-performing, and it is procced based on actions that you take, not what the player wearing the armor is doing... maybe, just, don't proc the set in the first place?

Right, ill make sure to not do any dmg to my opponents and not take any dmg from them so their sets dont proc. So procs are balanced because you can play Sims. Damn, these arguments in proc set threads etc are literally getting more stupid by the minute.

Its ok tho, its not like i expected something different from someone who is using the word "intelligent" while defending shieldbreaker, oblivion dmg etc.

Chilly-McFreeze

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The thread is highly entertaining. Like every topic that involves Sorcs it doesn’t fail to deliver on the hilarious end of the spectrum. I won’t enter that discussion, because frankly, been there, done that. You simply won’t convince anyone who has “shields OP” as one of his most firm beliefs that SB is a bad idea. You can give all the numbers you want, point out the shortcomings of all the available HoTs, the ability to be abused in Xv1 scenarios specifically, and the fact you can run it on your bow bar only - you’ll just get done ridiculous answers that boil down to play a tank in HA.

What I find so amusing:

People on here always claim how easy it is to counter and that you’re just a scrub if you can’t. It’s almost like the set needed buffs if you read the answers. Yet the dichotomy how it gets defended in full force mode is a striking one. You’d expect that a set that is easy to counter is no loss if it gets ditched. That people angrily defend the set instead is the biggest proof it’s a problematic set - otherwise it wouldn’t be so.

we told you repeatedly that if you shield stack then this set simply kills the shield, nothing more.
in addition to that it takes along time to kill people because it is only light attacks doing that damage and only to shields and that damage is only 2500 per light atack hit and with you healing and spaming the shields repeatedly that takes a long time.


makes fighting shield spamming sorcerers balanced and a fair fight.

please stop spamming this thread with false information.

Ironic

Qbiken

Went on the PTS to try some of my builds yesterday. Went to Cyrodil to see if I could fine any people to fight. Came across a magicka nightblade using the following sets:

2 Zaan
5 Sload´s Semblance
5 Mantle of Siroria

As you might see it´s the most ridiculous cheese setup you can imagine. Me and the nightblade did some duels just to see the strengths/weaknesses with our builds.
Siroria´s Mantle is easy to step out of or block, so that set is quite underwhelming. Zaan has 200 threads already so won´t talk about it here, and since this thread is about oblivion damage, I´ll give my view on Sload´s Semblance:

While I didn´t have any issues surviving (those times I died was more or less due to the PTS latency :P ), there´re some concerns:

* It will be much more potent on stamina builds in my opinion. The more DoT´s you can stack together with this set the better. Add bleeds + defiles and you´ll have trouble staying alive.

* My main-concern with this set is if it´s stackable (like curse-stacking). If it is, this set will be ridiculous. There needs to be some sort of immunity that prevents multiple stacks of this Oblivion DoT to stack on the same target.

Checkmath

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The thread is highly entertaining. Like every topic that involves Sorcs it doesn’t fail to deliver on the hilarious end of the spectrum. I won’t enter that discussion, because frankly, been there, done that. You simply won’t convince anyone who has “shields OP” as one of his most firm beliefs that SB is a bad idea. You can give all the numbers you want, point out the shortcomings of all the available HoTs, the ability to be abused in Xv1 scenarios specifically, and the fact you can run it on your bow bar only - you’ll just get done ridiculous answers that boil down to play a tank in HA.

What I find so amusing:

People on here always claim how easy it is to counter and that you’re just a scrub if you can’t. It’s almost like the set needed buffs if you read the answers. Yet the dichotomy how it gets defended in full force mode is a striking one. You’d expect that a set that is easy to counter is no loss if it gets ditched. That people angrily defend the set instead is the biggest proof it’s a problematic set - otherwise it wouldn’t be so.

that's a bunch of bullmolarky, if what you are saying was true then i would be able to kill ALL sorcerers and that is just not happening.
we told you repeatedly that if you shield stack then this set simply kills the shield, nothing more.
in addition to that it takes along time to kill people because it is only light attacks doing that damage and only to shields and that damage is only 2500 per light atack hit and with you healing and spaming the shields repeatedly that takes a long time.
the set is balanced. and it has been balanced for Years, its not new and needs rethought its the same old set that does the same old thing

makes fighting shield spamming sorcerers balanced and a fair fight.

please stop spamming this thread with false information.

@dwemer_paleologist
You sure you know how the set works? Because what you wrote isnt at all how shieldbreaker works.
The set doesnt kill the shield, the damage is dealt as oblivion damage, so it damages the health and not the shield. So simply using more shields will kill you, because to counter shieldbreaker you need to stop using shields. So you should be the one to stop telling lies and wrong information. The set is an overkill for shieldstackers, because most of them (sorcs for example) dont have enough hots to heal up. Shields are the mechanic for light armor builds to stay alive. Without them there is no chance to be viable. The same reason why medium armor is rarely used on stamina builds, because its too squishy. Its not cheese to use shields, its the intended mechanic for light armor builds and a set, which deals 3-4k dps oblivion damage is too much, there is no hot to healing against that.

Biro123

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

This set is not dependent on the target relying only on shields as their defense.

And it becomes dead weight if you don't rely on shields.

Magsorc has to rely on shields or you play an completely outclassed build that dies way more often just to survive vs one special set that hardcounters the viable builds.

Also just by using the set you completely remove the ability of your enemy to use any shields as you get punished way too hard just because someone slotted a 5pc set

Maybe you should be punished for cheesing the system to give a DPS the survivability of a tank. Just, you know, a thought.

And there goes your credibility...

DPS the survivability of a tank? EVERY. SINGLE. viable build in PVP does both damage AND has survivability - for all classes. The difference is HOW they do it.

You never seen a stamblade do equivalent burst to a sorc and then be almost unhittable with the dodge/dodge/cloak/los combo with vigour running to deal with the few things that do hit?

Not seen that Templar stood in his AOE's block-casting heals with 4+ people beating on him then burst people down with jabs/meteor/scoria? (defile aside, which, like shieldbreaker, I also think is overperforming)

Nor the Warden - almost unkillable by ranged builds - and still a tough one vs melee - yet bursting with shalks/DB/reverse-slice ?

PVP doesn't really do DPS, or Tank or Healer.. You can lean towards one of those directions - but nobody but a complete potato fully ignores them.

And if you knew anything about shields - you'd know they give nothing like the survivability of a defense-oriented stamina build.

Its this stupid mindest that people keep wanting to bring in from other games where they *think* sorcs do the most damage - NOT TRUE

And then they *think* that they therefore should have no defence - Yet somehow its ok for a stam toon with heavy armour to do equivalent damage to the sorc *AND* have defence???

I honestly don't know how some people's mind works.

Maulkin

What i like best is the advice.

uSe hOts!

That's such great advice, thank you guys. Why didn't I think of this before?

Checkmath

Maulkin wrote: »

What i like best is the advice.

uSe hOts!

That's such great advice, thank you guys. Why didn't I think of this before?

Because most hots suck?

Feanor

I don’t think the set will be changed. Although the landscape concerning shields has been altered very much since IC it’s seldom that ZOS revisits these decisions and does further adjustments. It is what it is.

elfantasmo

The main problem with shield breaker is that the people who I know that use it, exclusively use it behind a Zerg. Nobody using a shield breaker build could kill a decent sorc 1v1. Giving players this power in an xv1 situation is ridiculous.

Drakkdjinn

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Huge? Is it?

Only time I hear about it is in one of your many threads.

Bergzorn

My hardened ward occupies a bar slot, takes a global cooldown to cast, is not cheap, and gives me a 7k damage shield in no-CP.

More and more sources of oblivion damage become available and viable in PvP, and additionally, people are asking for shield nerfs like critable shields or %-absorption. Go ahead for all I care. But what some people do not seem to understand is that, by design and intended(!), healing and resistances do not synergize well with the magsorc toolkit.

I would love to see a hit to shield stacking (people suggested a minor/major shield system or to nerf the magica return on harness). Then, maybe, single shields can get some adjustments to the damage power creep.

BohnT

Maulkin wrote: »

What i like best is the advice.

uSe hOts!

That's such great advice, thank you guys. Why didn't I think of this before?

Because you have pla

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Huge? Is it?

Only time I hear about it is in one of your many threads.

Do me a favour, go look up all posts/ comments where people talk about shieldbreaker.

Also, are you one of those guys who needs to crutch on all the imbalances i try to get removed from the game?
If yes i will surely continue to keep those post coming just to *** of people like you

barshemm

I ran shield breaker, infused bow w/ oblivion enchant on my new ep nightblade a bit while I worked on getting gear for him.

Results were, a few bad sorcs got light attacked to death.

Most decent sorcs and all good sorcs spent and extra amount of time t bagging compared to normal.

Over all I had *** for burst and wasn't taking much of anyone down. I'm doing a lot better in my current set up, still trying to figure out how to take out mag sorcs and mag dks with a pure burst stamblade build though. I may have to try switching to something that does more pressure, won't involve oblivion damage though.

Back before they nerfed shield breaker proccing on every tick of resto/lightning staff, shield breaker was op. Used to love running around with my stam sorc w/ a lightning staff proccing shield breaker every tick and implosion. That was funny stuff.

ChefZero

A few of my thoughts:

- SB is going to become more viable with Summerset cause of psijic block/shield passive.

- SB and Oblivion damage should be a way to make hybrid builds variable.

- There are housemade problems with base mechanics in general. Balancing a class specific playstyle with a set is stupid. IMO every type of damage should critable and any defensive skill (shield/heal) not. Damage should scale with weapon-/magicdamage ⅔ or more and with stamina/magicka ⅓ or less. Heal/shield should scale with ⅔ stamina/magicka or more and with weapon-/magicdamage ⅓ or less.
ZOS made it hard to balance stuff cause things like crit is to good and affect damage and heal. Steamroll builds exist cause we are able to boost damage and defense with same stats without downsides.