Shieldbreaker and oblivion damage in general

BohnT · April 2018

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

The main problem with shieldbreaker is that it forces anyone relying on shields as a main defence to completely stop using shields as a defence when fighting someone wearing shieldbreaker as there is no non healing focused build that can get a 3.5k HPS in cyro (2075 damage per light attack /0.6s per LA)

Most stamina builds would struggle to reach such healing in a prolonged fight.

The issue is that in order to reach the full potential of shields you are forced to run light armor and don't invest as much into health as shields work as an additional health pool. Due to these build restrictions a sorc or any build focusing on active shield useage is very vulnerable to burst as soon as their shields go down or in the case of oblivion damage / shieldbreaker can't be applied at all.

This makes shieldbreaker a hardcounter vs those builds which translates into an huge issue that players with mediocre or bad skill can easily win fights against the best sorcs out there.
The PC EU sorcs know what is ment by that

The next issue with oblivion damage is that it's not affected by any offensive or defensive stats, the only way to increase oblivion damage is using a OD Glyph with infused and torugs (which is another problem)
also there is no way to reduce the incoming damage no Form of mitigation be it named buffs like major protection, resistances or other sources of mitigation can't change anything about how much damage it will deal.
This opens pandora's Box as you can deal high amounts of damage while running around with an unkillable tank build with 40k health to prevent your enemy from killing you.

My suggestions for shieldbreaker is to completely rework the set like this:
Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

With this change you still get a huge bonus while fighting against players using damage shields while also making the set useable in more situations and versus more builds.

About oblivion damage glyphs and infused torugs pact, the game has to be strict and keep it in line that oblivion damage cannot be increased but also cannont be decreased by anything.

For people saying you can easily heal through shieldbreaker, you can't as shields work out differently than players who haven't used those builds think they do.
Imagine you run around with your stamina build and everytime you get hit by a LA your max health is reduced by ~10% which is cumultative abd you can only get back some of your max health if you get healing when you heal while being at 100% health (to simulate the low healing of viable shield focused)

I please the Forum mods to remove any posts like this as they only derail the post:
Shieldbreaker is fine. (No explanation)
L2P. (No constructive feedback)
Sorc is already weak. (False information based on lack of skill/ experience)
You can't kill X without shieldbreaker. (False information based on lack of experience)

Maulkin · April 2018

Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

Question. How do you envision this working? Does it increase your unblockable, and in the case of bleeds unmitigated, DoT damage by 20% as well? Or just your direct blocked damage?

Because if it's just your blocked direct damage, then it makes little difference. If it increases DoT bleeds by 20% or Zaan or any of that stuff, then that's OP as fark. Which leads me to my second question.

In which content do you currently have problems with tanky builds? And why do you feel there is a need for a set to provide such a strong counter to them?

Every class has access to some unblockable damage. Most classes (should be all classes) have a way to make opponents drop block. I'm all for every class having access to a skill that drops block.

Nerfing Shieldbreaker against wards and making it stronger against block, though good form a Sorc stand-point, means the set is very strong against 2/3 ways to mitigate damage. Which makes it arguably the best set to have for too many an encounter and therefore the most likely set to be slotted by medium builds by far in PvP.

Which leads me to my third question. What is the equivalent set for the 3rd strong defensive mechanic, dodge. Why do we feel that wards and block needs counter sets but dodge does not?

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

Shield Breaker is an incredibly niche set. I agree there shouldn't be a set like this in existence since it is a hard counter against a particular play style, but I believe that medium armor suffers from this more so.

BohnT · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

Question. How do you envision this working? Does it increase your unblockable, and in the case of bleeds unmitigated, DoT damage by 20% as well? Or just your direct blocked damage?

Because if it's just your blocked direct damage, then it makes little difference. If it increases DoT bleeds by 20% or Zaan or any of that stuff, then that's OP as fark. Which leads me to my second question.

In which content do you currently have problems with tanky builds? And why do you feel there is a need for a set to provide such a strong counter to them?

Every class has access to some unblockable damage. Most classes (should be all classes) have a way to make opponents drop block. I'm all for every class having access to a skill that drops block.

Nerfing Shieldbreaker against wards and making it stronger against block, though good form a Sorc stand-point, means the set is very strong against 2/3 ways to mitigate damage. Which makes it arguably the best set to have for too many an encounter and therefore the most likely set to be slotted by medium builds by far in PvP.

Which leads me to my third question. What is the equivalent set for the 3rd strong defensive mechanic, dodge. Why do we feel that wards and block needs counter sets but dodge does not?

Just your blocked direct damage to prevent exactly the issue with bleeds and other dots ignoring block.

I don't have a particular issue with block builds however i feel like reducing the set to only deal increased damage against shields would make it underwhelming while a 20% buff to your direct damage against blocking target doesn't make it too strong.

We have certain sets that are strong vs dodge like:
Zaan, skoria etc.
The issue here is that if you introduce too many undodgeable skills and counters for dodge it gets completely removed from being useable unless you have good complementary defensive methods.
Right now i only see dodge builds which are a problem to be stamblades as they have access to cloak which works so well with dodge and the frontloaded burst of NB (already stated i doesn't like how this plays out)
I haven't seen anything viable dodge based build for any other class in the last 5 patches

Biro123 · April 2018

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

BohnT · April 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
*Insert Paarthunax quote here*

That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

People really need to play as every single class and play style for two reasons:
1) it gives you a better perspective on class balance.
2) it makes you a better PvPer because you now have a better understanding on how your opponent thinks.

Maulkin · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

Question. How do you envision this working? Does it increase your unblockable, and in the case of bleeds unmitigated, DoT damage by 20% as well? Or just your direct blocked damage?

Because if it's just your blocked direct damage, then it makes little difference. If it increases DoT bleeds by 20% or Zaan or any of that stuff, then that's OP as fark. Which leads me to my second question.

In which content do you currently have problems with tanky builds? And why do you feel there is a need for a set to provide such a strong counter to them?

Every class has access to some unblockable damage. Most classes (should be all classes) have a way to make opponents drop block. I'm all for every class having access to a skill that drops block.

Nerfing Shieldbreaker against wards and making it stronger against block, though good form a Sorc stand-point, means the set is very strong against 2/3 ways to mitigate damage. Which makes it arguably the best set to have for too many an encounter and therefore the most likely set to be slotted by medium builds by far in PvP.

Which leads me to my third question. What is the equivalent set for the 3rd strong defensive mechanic, dodge. Why do we feel that wards and block needs counter sets but dodge does not?

Just your blocked direct damage to prevent exactly the issue with bleeds and other dots ignoring block.

I don't have a particular issue with block builds however i feel like reducing the set to only deal increased damage against shields would make it underwhelming while a 20% buff to your direct damage against blocking target doesn't make it too strong.

We have certain sets that are strong vs dodge like:
Zaan, skoria etc.
The issue here is that if you introduce too many undodgeable skills and counters for dodge it gets completely removed from being useable unless you have good complementary defensive methods.
Right now i only see dodge builds which are a problem to be stamblades as they have access to cloak which works so well with dodge and the frontloaded burst of NB (already stated i doesn't like how this plays out)
I haven't seen anything viable dodge based build for any other class in the last 5 patches

Well in that case I would argue the set would be quite ineffective. Let's take the following facts and assumptions

- Block with S&B mitigates 70% of damage for melee attacks and 85% for ranged attacks (fact)
- Battle Spirit reduces player damage by 50% (fact)
- You have a melee ability with 10k tooltip. (assumption)

10k * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) = 5k. Then, 5k * 0.3 (70% block mitigation) = 1.5k. Then you have mitigation..

WIth the new set that would be...
10k * 1.2 (set buff) = 12k. Then, 12k * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) = 6k. Then, 6k * 0.3 (70% block mitigation) = 1.8k. Then you have mitigation...

The reality is that on a 10k ability the difference will be ~250 dmg. On a 20k ability ~500. It basically makes no difference.
Tanks die to dots, bleeds, defiles and unblockable CC. So long as they are blocking, direct damage is the least of their problems because they mitigate it so hard.

So, me being a Sorc these changes would find me agreeable because I obviously (naturally) detest ShieldBreaker in its current form. But I don't think this set will be particularly useful against Tanks.

Also, the problem is that the idea of shieldbreaker doing extra damage on shields has been proposed before and ZOS didn't care. We explained how X% extra damage on shields scales with your damage as a build and is good mechanics, instead of a fixed oblivion damage which is not affected by your build or touched by Battle Spirit. They didn't care.

We explained how Shield Breaker is very strong in CP PvP and how it's basically un-counterable in No-CP because the 3.5k DPS is extremely high for that content and nothing but Healing Springs or HtD spam can outheal it and only for small time before you go oom. They didn't care then either.

So, I'm sceptical.

BohnT · April 2018

Daus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

People really need to play as every single class and play style for two reasons:
1) it gives you a better perspective on class balance.
2) it makes you a better PvPer because you now have a better understanding on how your opponent thinks.

Yeah that's why i was strictly against choosing class Representatives and not balance Representatives.
There are many great players here who are exceptionally good on one class but haven't played any or only a few of them.

BohnT · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

Question. How do you envision this working? Does it increase your unblockable, and in the case of bleeds unmitigated, DoT damage by 20% as well? Or just your direct blocked damage?

Because if it's just your blocked direct damage, then it makes little difference. If it increases DoT bleeds by 20% or Zaan or any of that stuff, then that's OP as fark. Which leads me to my second question.

In which content do you currently have problems with tanky builds? And why do you feel there is a need for a set to provide such a strong counter to them?

Every class has access to some unblockable damage. Most classes (should be all classes) have a way to make opponents drop block. I'm all for every class having access to a skill that drops block.

Nerfing Shieldbreaker against wards and making it stronger against block, though good form a Sorc stand-point, means the set is very strong against 2/3 ways to mitigate damage. Which makes it arguably the best set to have for too many an encounter and therefore the most likely set to be slotted by medium builds by far in PvP.

Which leads me to my third question. What is the equivalent set for the 3rd strong defensive mechanic, dodge. Why do we feel that wards and block needs counter sets but dodge does not?

Just your blocked direct damage to prevent exactly the issue with bleeds and other dots ignoring block.

I don't have a particular issue with block builds however i feel like reducing the set to only deal increased damage against shields would make it underwhelming while a 20% buff to your direct damage against blocking target doesn't make it too strong.

We have certain sets that are strong vs dodge like:
Zaan, skoria etc.
The issue here is that if you introduce too many undodgeable skills and counters for dodge it gets completely removed from being useable unless you have good complementary defensive methods.
Right now i only see dodge builds which are a problem to be stamblades as they have access to cloak which works so well with dodge and the frontloaded burst of NB (already stated i doesn't like how this plays out)
I haven't seen anything viable dodge based build for any other class in the last 5 patches

Well in that case I would argue the set would be quite ineffective. Let's take the following facts and assumptions

- Block with S&B mitigates 70% of damage for melee attacks and 85% for ranged attacks (fact)
- Battle Spirit reduces player damage by 50% (fact)
- You have a melee ability with 10k tooltip. (assumption)

10k * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) = 5k. Then, 5k * 0.3 (70% block mitigation) = 1.5k. Then you have mitigation..

WIth the new set that would be...
10k * 1.2 (set buff) = 12k. Then, 12k * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) = 6k. Then, 6k * 0.3 (70% block mitigation) = 1.8k. Then you have mitigation...

The reality is that on a 10k ability the difference will be ~250 dmg. On a 20k ability ~500. It basically makes no difference.
Tanks die to dots, bleeds, defiles and unblockable CC. So long as they are blocking, direct damage is the least of their problems because they mitigate it so hard.

So, me being a Sorc these changes would find me agreeable because I obviously (naturally) detest ShieldBreaker in its current form. But I don't think this set will be particularly useful against Tanks.

Also, the problem is that the idea of shieldbreaker doing extra damage on shields has been proposed before and ZOS didn't care. We explained how X% extra damage on shields scales with your damage as a build and is good mechanics, instead of a fixed oblivion damage which is not affected by your build or touched by Battle Spirit. They didn't care.

We explained how Shield Breaker is very strong in CP PvP and how it's basically un-counterable in No-CP because the 3.5k DPS is extremely high for that content and nothing but Healing Springs or HtD spam can outheal it and only for small time before you go oom. They didn't care then either.

So, I'm sceptical.

The extra damage on block was just a small incentive to use the set not a game changer as this would be broken if one set would be very good against two often used defensive mechanics.

I know the issue that Zos doesn't seem to care about balance changes but when the HotR pts dropped there were no changes to tremorscale and selene and i think widowmaker as well.
Some people including me kept insisting that the sets need rebalancing and in the end we got it that's why i keep bringing up the topic to maybe get it fixed at one point

thankyourat · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

People really need to play as every single class and play style for two reasons:
1) it gives you a better perspective on class balance.
2) it makes you a better PvPer because you now have a better understanding on how your opponent thinks.

Yeah that's why i was strictly against choosing class Representatives and not balance Representatives.
There are many great players here who are exceptionally good on one class but haven't played any or only a few of them.

To be really good at one class though means you have to understand the mechanics of the other classes or you wouldn't be able to beat them. So as long as the class representative is a top tier player at the class it should be fine... As for the original topic I think people think shield breaker is fine because they are thinking of the "meta" shieldbreaker build which only has it active on the bow bar. That sort of build isn't really that much of a problem 1v1 for a shield user. I wonder though what it would be like to fight a shield breaker user who has it active on both bars. I haven't encountered yet it would probably be pretty difficult to fight against.

Derra · April 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

People really need to play as every single class and play style for two reasons:
1) it gives you a better perspective on class balance.
2) it makes you a better PvPer because you now have a better understanding on how your opponent thinks.

Yeah that's why i was strictly against choosing class Representatives and not balance Representatives.
There are many great players here who are exceptionally good on one class but haven't played any or only a few of them.

To be really good at one class though means you have to understand the mechanics of the other classes or you wouldn't be able to beat them. So as long as the class representative is a top tier player at the class it should be fine... As for the original topic I think people think shield breaker is fine because they are thinking of the "meta" shieldbreaker build which only has it active on the bow bar. That sort of build isn't really that much of a problem 1v1 for a shield user. I wonder though what it would be like to fight a shield breaker user who has it active on both bars. I haven't encountered yet it would probably be pretty difficult to fight against.

Even on bowbar only it´s prettymuch uncounterable if you´re playing on an above average level against an equally skilled opponent. The key is to not trying to rush a kill. Playing it safe going for the long run is going to net the win due to too much "free" dmg.
The only thing that works there is running away (or around a tree) for the shielduser.

You rarely see this happening because shieldbreaker is almost exclusively used by bad to mediocre players that fail to realize their own shortcomings and instead blame failure on supposedly overpowered mechanics and unfair play of their opponents.

BohnT · April 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

People really need to play as every single class and play style for two reasons:
1) it gives you a better perspective on class balance.
2) it makes you a better PvPer because you now have a better understanding on how your opponent thinks.

Yeah that's why i was strictly against choosing class Representatives and not balance Representatives.
There are many great players here who are exceptionally good on one class but haven't played any or only a few of them.

To be really good at one class though means you have to understand the mechanics of the other classes or you wouldn't be able to beat them. So as long as the class representative is a top tier player at the class it should be fine... As for the original topic I think people think shield breaker is fine because they are thinking of the "meta" shieldbreaker build which only has it active on the bow bar. That sort of build isn't really that much of a problem 1v1 for a shield user. I wonder though what it would be like to fight a shield breaker user who has it active on both bars. I haven't encountered yet it would probably be pretty difficult to fight against.

I wouldn't sign that for everyone, i see many very good players in game and on the forums which have run out of touch what other classes have and what they have to deal with.

If you want good Entertainment check "alternative musician (read Indi) + gitally" on a well known Video platform (everyone you'll see there is a very good sorc/ nb yet they can't do anything against the Xv1 power of SB+ infused oblivion torugs)

OdinForge · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

@BohnT

Didn't you used to argue that SB was ok? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes that was me and when looking back i feel really stupid for saying shieldbreaker was balanced.
Today i know how i came to the mindset because i only played 2 classes (both stam) back then.
*Insert Paarthunax quote here*

That's one of the most critical issues on the forums that players can argue eventhough they have 0 experience about a topic or only encountered them from one side.

That's why many discussions are derailed by bias and lack of experience as players just see the issues with their class and what other players can do with other classes while having no idea how things really work out.

I made an example based on math why shieldbreaker is balanced which said that it takes ~22 seconds to kill someone who uses mutagen or the lingering health potions but in practise those things work out differently and are just unfair as the life of the sorc is already set on a timer.

Thread is over lmao.

Oblivion damage is a silly mechanic, but it's worse on other sets like knight slayer. Shield breaker is a niche set that no longer is viable outside of Xv1'ing a magsorc noob. The set should probably be removed or reworked, but it's rarely seen and rarely successful.

It certainly doesn't warrant having yet another thread about.

ToRelax · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

Question. How do you envision this working? Does it increase your unblockable, and in the case of bleeds unmitigated, DoT damage by 20% as well? Or just your direct blocked damage?

Because if it's just your blocked direct damage, then it makes little difference. If it increases DoT bleeds by 20% or Zaan or any of that stuff, then that's OP as fark. Which leads me to my second question.

In which content do you currently have problems with tanky builds? And why do you feel there is a need for a set to provide such a strong counter to them?

Every class has access to some unblockable damage. Most classes (should be all classes) have a way to make opponents drop block. I'm all for every class having access to a skill that drops block.

Nerfing Shieldbreaker against wards and making it stronger against block, though good form a Sorc stand-point, means the set is very strong against 2/3 ways to mitigate damage. Which makes it arguably the best set to have for too many an encounter and therefore the most likely set to be slotted by medium builds by far in PvP.

Which leads me to my third question. What is the equivalent set for the 3rd strong defensive mechanic, dodge. Why do we feel that wards and block needs counter sets but dodge does not?

Just your blocked direct damage to prevent exactly the issue with bleeds and other dots ignoring block.

I don't have a particular issue with block builds however i feel like reducing the set to only deal increased damage against shields would make it underwhelming while a 20% buff to your direct damage against blocking target doesn't make it too strong.

We have certain sets that are strong vs dodge like:
Zaan, skoria etc.
The issue here is that if you introduce too many undodgeable skills and counters for dodge it gets completely removed from being useable unless you have good complementary defensive methods.
Right now i only see dodge builds which are a problem to be stamblades as they have access to cloak which works so well with dodge and the frontloaded burst of NB (already stated i doesn't like how this plays out)
I haven't seen anything viable dodge based build for any other class in the last 5 patches

Well in that case I would argue the set would be quite ineffective. Let's take the following facts and assumptions

- Block with S&B mitigates 70% of damage for melee attacks and 85% for ranged attacks (fact)
- Battle Spirit reduces player damage by 50% (fact)
- You have a melee ability with 10k tooltip. (assumption)

10k * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) = 5k. Then, 5k * 0.3 (70% block mitigation) = 1.5k. Then you have mitigation..

WIth the new set that would be...
10k * 1.2 (set buff) = 12k. Then, 12k * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) = 6k. Then, 6k * 0.3 (70% block mitigation) = 1.8k. Then you have mitigation...

The reality is that on a 10k ability the difference will be ~250 dmg. On a 20k ability ~500. It basically makes no difference.
Tanks die to dots, bleeds, defiles and unblockable CC. So long as they are blocking, direct damage is the least of their problems because they mitigate it so hard.

So, me being a Sorc these changes would find me agreeable because I obviously (naturally) detest ShieldBreaker in its current form. But I don't think this set will be particularly useful against Tanks.

Also, the problem is that the idea of shieldbreaker doing extra damage on shields has been proposed before and ZOS didn't care. We explained how X% extra damage on shields scales with your damage as a build and is good mechanics, instead of a fixed oblivion damage which is not affected by your build or touched by Battle Spirit. They didn't care.

We explained how Shield Breaker is very strong in CP PvP and how it's basically un-counterable in No-CP because the 3.5k DPS is extremely high for that content and nothing but Healing Springs or HtD spam can outheal it and only for small time before you go oom. They didn't care then either.

So, I'm sceptical.

What if it was additive with block mitigation?
There will be some way to make the set useful in more situations so it doesn't have to be overpowered in a few.
Nice to see how a well rounded experience changes opinions. Now we only need Wrobel to play magSorc at a decent level...

Minalan · April 2018

Easy fix for the set:

Set requires 1000 tel var stones to activate.

That would only make it work in Imperial city where arguably it’s *needed*. Sorcs can stack like 75K+ Max Magicka there with Imperial physique set.

ToRelax · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Easy fix for the set:

Set requires 1000 tel var stones to activate.

That would only make it work in Imperial city where arguably it’s *needed*. Sorcs can stack like 75K+ Max Magicka there with Imperial physique set.

Anyone can use Imperial Physique, it's best on a setup making good use of all resource pools, and it would put any shield user not using Imperial Physique at a disadvantage.

Minalan · April 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Easy fix for the set:

Set requires 1000 tel var stones to activate.

That would only make it work in Imperial city where arguably it’s *needed*. Sorcs can stack like 75K+ Max Magicka there with Imperial physique set.

Anyone can use Imperial Physique, it's best on a setup making good use of all resource pools, and it would put any shield user not using Imperial Physique at a disadvantage.

Pretty much, my point though is that there’s a place for all of those broken sets, and it’s in the broken imperial city mini-PvP game that absolutely nobody ever plays.

josiahva · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

The main problem with shieldbreaker is that it forces anyone relying on shields as a main defence to completely stop using shields as a defence when fighting someone wearing shieldbreaker as there is no non healing focused build that can get a 3.5k HPS in cyro (2075 damage per light attack /0.6s per LA)

Most stamina builds would struggle to reach such healing in a prolonged fight.

The issue is that in order to reach the full potential of shields you are forced to run light armor and don't invest as much into health as shields work as an additional health pool. Due to these build restrictions a sorc or any build focusing on active shield useage is very vulnerable to burst as soon as their shields go down or in the case of oblivion damage / shieldbreaker can't be applied at all.

This makes shieldbreaker a hardcounter vs those builds which translates into an huge issue that players with mediocre or bad skill can easily win fights against the best sorcs out there.
The PC EU sorcs know what is ment by that

The next issue with oblivion damage is that it's not affected by any offensive or defensive stats, the only way to increase oblivion damage is using a OD Glyph with infused and torugs (which is another problem)
also there is no way to reduce the incoming damage no Form of mitigation be it named buffs like major protection, resistances or other sources of mitigation can't change anything about how much damage it will deal.
This opens pandora's Box as you can deal high amounts of damage while running around with an unkillable tank build with 40k health to prevent your enemy from killing you.

My suggestions for shieldbreaker is to completely rework the set like this:
Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

With this change you still get a huge bonus while fighting against players using damage shields while also making the set useable in more situations and versus more builds.

About oblivion damage glyphs and infused torugs pact, the game has to be strict and keep it in line that oblivion damage cannot be increased but also cannont be decreased by anything.

For people saying you can easily heal through shieldbreaker, you can't as shields work out differently than players who haven't used those builds think they do.
Imagine you run around with your stamina build and everytime you get hit by a LA your max health is reduced by ~10% which is cumultative abd you can only get back some of your max health if you get healing when you heal while being at 100% health (to simulate the low healing of viable shield focused)
I please the Forum mods to remove any posts like this as they only derail the post:
Shieldbreaker is fine. (No explanation)
L2P. (No constructive feedback)
Sorc is already weak. (False information based on lack of skill/ experience)
You can't kill X without shieldbreaker. (False information based on lack of experience)

So what? There are hard counters to all builds...get over it. Believe it or not, you wont be able to win all fights...I wouldnt be very concerned about the pathetically small portion of people who use oblivion damage anyway, just accept you may not win against them and use block/heal/dodge to mitigate it as best you can. Best to focus on increased burst vs. those builds if you use shields as a crutch.

Feanor · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

What's this, the third @BohnT thread demanding something get nerfed because of pvp reasons? Well colour me surprised.

Anyone using Oblivion damage in PvE? I don’t think so.

starkerealm · April 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

ToRelax · April 2018

josiahva wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

The main problem with shieldbreaker is that it forces anyone relying on shields as a main defence to completely stop using shields as a defence when fighting someone wearing shieldbreaker as there is no non healing focused build that can get a 3.5k HPS in cyro (2075 damage per light attack /0.6s per LA)

Most stamina builds would struggle to reach such healing in a prolonged fight.

The issue is that in order to reach the full potential of shields you are forced to run light armor and don't invest as much into health as shields work as an additional health pool. Due to these build restrictions a sorc or any build focusing on active shield useage is very vulnerable to burst as soon as their shields go down or in the case of oblivion damage / shieldbreaker can't be applied at all.

This makes shieldbreaker a hardcounter vs those builds which translates into an huge issue that players with mediocre or bad skill can easily win fights against the best sorcs out there.
The PC EU sorcs know what is ment by that

The next issue with oblivion damage is that it's not affected by any offensive or defensive stats, the only way to increase oblivion damage is using a OD Glyph with infused and torugs (which is another problem)
also there is no way to reduce the incoming damage no Form of mitigation be it named buffs like major protection, resistances or other sources of mitigation can't change anything about how much damage it will deal.
This opens pandora's Box as you can deal high amounts of damage while running around with an unkillable tank build with 40k health to prevent your enemy from killing you.

My suggestions for shieldbreaker is to completely rework the set like this:
Your direct damage abilities deal 20% more damage to damage shields and blocking targets

With this change you still get a huge bonus while fighting against players using damage shields while also making the set useable in more situations and versus more builds.

About oblivion damage glyphs and infused torugs pact, the game has to be strict and keep it in line that oblivion damage cannot be increased but also cannont be decreased by anything.

For people saying you can easily heal through shieldbreaker, you can't as shields work out differently than players who haven't used those builds think they do.
Imagine you run around with your stamina build and everytime you get hit by a LA your max health is reduced by ~10% which is cumultative abd you can only get back some of your max health if you get healing when you heal while being at 100% health (to simulate the low healing of viable shield focused)
I please the Forum mods to remove any posts like this as they only derail the post:
Shieldbreaker is fine. (No explanation)
L2P. (No constructive feedback)
Sorc is already weak. (False information based on lack of skill/ experience)
You can't kill X without shieldbreaker. (False information based on lack of experience)

So what? There are hard counters to all builds...get over it. Believe it or not, you wont be able to win all fights...I wouldnt be very concerned about the pathetically small portion of people who use oblivion damage anyway, just accept you may not win against them and use block/heal/dodge to mitigate it as best you can. Best to focus on increased burst vs. those builds if you use shields as a crutch.

If you think there are hard counters to all builds, that leaves us with two options:

1.) You don't know what a hard counter is.

2.) You don't know all builds.

I would guess both. Now, if you wanted to defend Shieldbreaker as a mechanic worth keeping, maybe try making an argument as to why there should be a hardcounter against any build.

pieratsos · April 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

starkerealm · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

What's this, the third @BohnT thread demanding something get nerfed because of pvp reasons? Well colour me surprised.

Anyone using Oblivion damage in PvE? I don’t think so.

As far as I can tell, Oblivon's always been intended for use on players. Either by monsters or by other players. With monsters, the mitigation is never enough to justify using it, because their durability comes from raw health. Against players, being able to bypass mitigation at a damage penalty is far more valuable. You effectively give them a set mitigation value, and the damage passes through.

That's the thing about Shieldbreaker and Knight Slayer. Yes, they bypass enemy mitigation, but they do it at a far worse return than you'd probably get with a different set. In the case of Shieldbreaker, you're specifically gearing to target players who keep shields up all the time.

Now, granted, with the Psijic skill line, we're more likely to see players running shields that, in the past, wouldn't have. But, still, same thought process applies.

starkerealm · April 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

BohnT · April 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

Shieldbreaker works way too good when one of the worst players on PC EU can wreck the best sorcs which play the class at the highest possible skill level by spamming light attacks while they can't do nothing?

They Wander around and do nothing? Why do builds that can't do nothing without unbalanced set need another unbalanced set to hurt them?
That's just absurd

ToRelax · April 2018

.

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

So, does that mean you can create and play a competitive mag Sorc build that doesn't rely on stacking shields, isn't countered by Shieldbreaker and doesn't just wander around doing nothing?

IAVITNI · April 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

It sounds like you’ve never played against shield breaker.

Hard counters should never exist in a game. It’s poor game design. Players should lose due to lack of skill/ game knowledge, not to sets alone.

Sure those that run SB are sacrificing a lot stat wise but it’s unfair for shield users to fight them because there is literally nothing you can do but run. Just because only a portion of people are suffering doesn’t make the suffering tolerable. There is 0 counter play, which should never exist in a game.

starkerealm · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

It sounds like you’ve never played against shield breaker.

Hard counters should never exist in a game. It’s poor game design. Players should lose due to lack of skill/ game knowledge, not to sets alone.

Sure those that run SB are sacrificing a lot stat wise but it’s unfair for shield users to fight them because there is literally nothing you can do but run. Just because only a portion of people are suffering doesn’t make the suffering tolerable. There is 0 counter play, which should never exist in a game.

In point of fact, I have run up against players using Shieldbreaker on my Sorc. They left very disappointed, and smeared across the walls because I don't get my survivability from stacking shields.

Someone gave up their 5pc bonus to specifically counter a cheese build. That's fine. I mean, sucks for you, but, if you're mindlessly stacking shields and screaming, "I'm invincible!" that was never particularly impressive.

starkerealm · April 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

.

starkerealm wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ever since oblivion damage was introduced in the form of Shieldbreaker it has been a huge controversy.

Oblivion damage was in the game at launch. The unresistable damage rune? Yeah, that was Oblivion. It's also been around as a damage type for enemy attacks, particularly mandatory wipe mechanics. Again, since launch.

The only thing Shieldbreaker did was put that on a 5pc bonus.

And since then everything went to ****. And instead of realising what a dumb idea that was and just scrap it, they keep putting more **** like that in the game. Because what can possibly go wrong when you give people multiple sources of unmitigated dmg that doesnt scale with anything.

The part where it doesn't scale with anything is actually a good thing. (Except Knight Slayer, but that's a special case.)

No, seriously.

It means that you give up some potential damage for guaranteed damage. Except, in the case of Shieldbreaker, it's not guaranteed at all, because you don't know with absolute certainty that your opponent will be using a shield. Even if you are, you'll still be dealing less damage to most targets than you will going with a different damage set.

Shieldbreaker exists because players were stacking ridiculous shields in Cyrodiil without penalty. The set was created to make that strategy much riskier... and, you know what? It works.

Knight Slayer's a similar thing. It exists to make heavy mitigation builds that just wander around and do nothing far riskier. It works too.

So, does that mean you can create and play a competitive mag Sorc build that doesn't rely on stacking shields, isn't countered by Shieldbreaker and doesn't just wander around doing nothing?

Yes.

WhipSmartMcoy · April 2018

Shield breaker procs from light attacks! Every time I hear that audio cue from SB I just gun down whoever is trying. If you can't kill someone with skills before they LA spam you to death then idk what to say