ZOS not engaging in any class feedback threads per PTS launch

MaxwellC · April 2018

We're suppose to provide feedback and yeah we all know threads can get cluttered with bickering between ones perspective versus another but no class feedback threads have had a developer response showing that they're hearing us out. I can only assume that the ZOS employees are pretty busy managing other aspects of the forum but at-least respond to a hand full of our class feedback.

It's pretty disheartening testing out my Stamina DK for example and after putting together feedback I get no response but what's even worse is that the entire thread is devoid of any ZOS acknowledgement about what the threads consensus maybe or anything that shows that our information we worked for was passed on to their respective personnel. I don't think I'm asking for much but just something that shows that our feedback is taken somewhat seriously would be much appreciated because if not, then what's the point of those threads other than collaborating with , venting, and praising a wall.

Aliyavana · April 2018

they havnt even commented on my issue that is repeating from morrowind's beta

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

have you tried being constructive?

I mean come on, we're only trying for 12 months now, I'm pretty sure they will notice your efforts eventually

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Ragnarock41
Quite sure a good portion of us had a constructive post following a heated discussion but that constructive post stands first. I just find it annoying when you have other games like Destiny (although they're being more responsive because they're tanking) who are very vocal and responsive to player feedback nowadays.
You look at ZOS and there's a stark contrast between the two in terms of relaying information or showing the players that they're being heard.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Ragnarock41
Quite sure a good portion of us had a constructive post following a heated discussion but that constructive post stands first. I just find it annoying when you have other games like Destiny (although they're being more responsive because they're tanking) who are very vocal and responsive to player feedback nowadays.
You look at ZOS and there's a stark contrast between the two in terms of relaying information or showing the players that they're being heard.

You can't ignore a part of your community for an entire year, and expect them to be constructive. that is not how it works.
Bungie also was not giving a damn about what their community wanted, they charged people way too much for their content, and in the end they got what they deserved. Its just too late for them to ask for ''feedback''.

I do believe this will also be the case for ESO. eventually people will be sick and tired of the same old and the same old, and a sudden new mmo release will bury this game into the history. Thats usually how games die off, when a better alternative comes out, especially at a time where players are sick of the old one's issues.

King_Thelon · April 2018

Lip Service: noun - an avowal of advocacy, adherence, or allegiance expressed in words but not backed by deeds

Minalan · April 2018

King_Thelon wrote: »

Lip Service: noun - an avowal of advocacy, adherence, or allegiance expressed in words but not backed by deeds

This pretty much, they either ignore the feedback, or they ignore the poor sap intern they have compiling notes on these posts.

Narvuntien · April 2018

Why would you?.... its a hive of scum and negativity.

If you made a game and whenever you made a change at least 50% of your players hate you.. no matter what you do. You learn to ignore them. If you tried to please everyone you'd quickly go insane (see all politicians)

People need to learn to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Part of giving effective criticism is that you have to show that you are in line with their vision but want them to achieve their goals more effectively.

"I see what you are trying to do but I think if you did this it will be more effective". If all you do is say "NO! change it back! right now!" you're a hater and will be dismissed.

Dedricus · April 2018

Narvuntien wrote: »

People need to learn to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Part of giving effective criticism is that you have to show that you are in line with their vision but want them to achieve their goals more effectively.

I made a forum post that I'd like to think was both constructive and positive. Not a single dev response. It's pretty sad. Gonna link it for the nth time for memes sake.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389568/stam-dk-pvp-issues#latest

Tasear · April 2018

Nah it's easier to just listen.

Turelus · April 2018

Generally they don't post in them, if they do it's just clarification from Gina or Jess.

You have to wait until future updates to see what's been heard. Wrobel and his team are no doubt reading them though.

Tannus15 · April 2018

What @Turelus said.

They do read the feedback, they do pay attention to it, and in rare cases they act on it, but they never, ever comment on it.
And if I was in their shoes I wouldn't either.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2018

Ya it's a mess with all the bickering . Hope good changes come for stamDk , it's long over due .

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Generally they don't post in them, if they do it's just clarification from Gina or Jess.

You have to wait until future updates to see what's been heard. Wrobel and his team are no doubt reading them though.

I think I have waited enough. I also believe wrobel and his team are biased. I honestly believe that, for real. As crazy as it sounds, I do not have any other explaination as to why my class gets completely ignored and doesn't get a single tweak over an entire year, I have no other way of explaining it, if you do, please share it with me.

my other theory is that they just don't know ANYTHING, about their own game.
Which one is worse? I honestly don't know.

Marabornwingrion · April 2018

Wrobel's response few weeks from now:

"Hey guys, we read your feedback but we won't consider making any changes ( exception is when you ask us for nerfs), we will do what we want anyway, cause this is our vision of game, so git gud, adapt and overcome"

Joxer61 · April 2018

Don't feel bad, seems to be the norm these days. Over on GW2 forums Arenanet was just as bad, ask for input and all yet never respond...."We don't have the resources"...then don't ask eh!

Turelus · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Generally they don't post in them, if they do it's just clarification from Gina or Jess.

You have to wait until future updates to see what's been heard. Wrobel and his team are no doubt reading them though.

I think I have waited enough. I also believe wrobel and his team are biased. I honestly believe that, for real. As crazy as it sounds, I do not have any other explaination as to why my class gets completely ignored and doesn't get a single tweak over an entire year, I have no other way of explaining it, if you do, please share it with me.

EVE Online devs actively reply in threads on development. They still "cherry pick" and "ignore feedback"
If that's how you feel then you're not going to be appeased unless they do exactly what you want, which may not fit the direction they want the game to go in.
We'll also have class reps by the next update to help with direction of feedback.

Beardimus · April 2018

We'll hear their responses in the next patch notes.

Half the threads are spiraling off in debate. Half the points they probably can't do or won't do.

Does 99% of Sorc want changes - yes
Does 99% of Sorcs not want to Tank - yes
Have the devs been told to make those changes and let Sorcs tank - yes

What can they comment? What will help.

They will hear what they can and do what they can I my belief I trust them.

I wish however odd directions where communicated better

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Generally they don't post in them, if they do it's just clarification from Gina or Jess.

You have to wait until future updates to see what's been heard. Wrobel and his team are no doubt reading them though.

I think I have waited enough. I also believe wrobel and his team are biased. I honestly believe that, for real. As crazy as it sounds, I do not have any other explaination as to why my class gets completely ignored and doesn't get a single tweak over an entire year, I have no other way of explaining it, if you do, please share it with me.

EVE Online devs actively reply in threads on development. They still "cherry pick" and "ignore feedback"
If that's how you feel then you're not going to be appeased unless they do exactly what you want, which may not fit the direction they want the game to go in.
We'll also have class reps by the next update to help with direction of feedback.

So after waiting for a full year, you're telling me to wait even more. I'm sorry but it is too late for class reps or whatever. Well at least, too late after the trick they pulled off with summerset.

I would be actually fine with waiting if they didn't literally force me into buying summerset, with the way they implemented jewelrycrafting and new skill line, but now that Its literally ''buy summerset or be left behind'',so I have made my mind.

I'm sadly done with ESO.(no, you can't have my stuff), Just waiting for some miracle fix or something(though knowing its childish at this point), just any clue to show me that they actually read or care, anything. I've been waiting for ZOS to throw me a small bone for like a year now.

They don't deserve my support, for real, they don't. Or maybe I'm really bad at understanding their perspective. Who knows. they never bothered explaining to me.

Beardimus · April 2018

^ so what are you after exactly?

As in the last years they have listened and made loads of changes asked for. In fact they listen too much. To casuals, noobs and moaners.

Turelus · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Generally they don't post in them, if they do it's just clarification from Gina or Jess.

You have to wait until future updates to see what's been heard. Wrobel and his team are no doubt reading them though.

I think I have waited enough. I also believe wrobel and his team are biased. I honestly believe that, for real. As crazy as it sounds, I do not have any other explaination as to why my class gets completely ignored and doesn't get a single tweak over an entire year, I have no other way of explaining it, if you do, please share it with me.

EVE Online devs actively reply in threads on development. They still "cherry pick" and "ignore feedback"
If that's how you feel then you're not going to be appeased unless they do exactly what you want, which may not fit the direction they want the game to go in.
We'll also have class reps by the next update to help with direction of feedback.

So after waiting for a full year, you're telling me to wait even more. I'm sorry but it is too late for class reps or whatever. Well at least, too late after the trick they pulled off with summerset.

I would be actually fine with waiting if they didn't literally force me into buying summerset, with the way they implemented jewelrycrafting and new skill line, but now that Its literally ''buy summerset or be left behind'',so I have made my mind.

I'm sadly done with ESO.(no, you can't have my stuff), Just waiting for some miracle fix or something(though knowing its childish at this point), just any clue to show me that they actually read or care, anything. I've been waiting for ZOS to throw me a small bone for like a year now.

They don't deserve my support, for real, they don't. Or maybe I'm really bad at understanding their perspective. Who knows. they never bothered explaining to me.

As I said you're not going to be happy because you're looking for the developers to appease your desires and ignoring all the other desires they've appeased and opinions they've listened to in the past.

You've made up your mind and are just venting frustrations at this point.

schattenkind · April 2018

Guys, the testing is not even 1 week from being started. Take a look how many threads and issues have come up since then. They sure make a list of all stuff, which takes a lot of time, they re still humans and the other forums need attention too. On the other hand look at what is happening in pts-forums and on pts server, a lot of ppl seem to not read stuff already posted at all and keep opening new threads and asking on pts the same questions over and over. Thats not helping anyone, even worse, it is making it harder for others to keep track.

Carbonised · April 2018

The cynical me believes the class feedback threads that are created every PTS cycle are simply for funneling all the PvP diehards, the arguing, the bickering, the "no, you" grade of discussion and all the vitriol into a few specific threads they can safely ignore, so it doesn't spread out and clutter up the entire PTS subforum.

Another thing that concerns me is that allegedly Wrobel & co. were listening very hard to the playtesters they had visit them, people always mention how receptive he seemed and how many notes he took - and then what we got here on the PTS in terms of class change was exactly the same as the playtesters had already revealed from their trip. Meaning that either all that feedback they gave them somehow didn't make it into the first cycle of PTS and will magically appear along the way - which I find somehow a bit hard to believe - or once again the "listening" didn't really result in any actual changes.
I tried very hard to find a single difference from the PTS patch notes and what was revealed a while ago by the playtesters here on the forums and on Reddit, and I can't find anything that's different.

Princess_Ciri · April 2018

half the posts in the PTS are really rude and just not constructive or helpful at all.

No wonder ZOS have a hard time listening to player feedback if they have to go through 90% of salt and QQ before they find actual helpful feedback. If they had someone respond to every single topic that would be a full time job.

Also, just because ZOS don't reply doesn't mean they haven't noticed what you are saying. Back when CWC was on the PTS I made a post about Jorvuld's guidance being bugged because it didn't increase the duration of major slayer. I didn't get any response from ZOS so I just assumed it was working as intended. But now they have made the change to Jorvuld's this PTS so it does affect major slayer.

So ultimately you just need to make sure your posts are reasonable, worded clearly, and you need to be patient.

Feanor · April 2018

They never really did that in any PTS though. All we get is the developer comments when another PTS patch hits. There should be a Combat Report though in the near future - Gina said they’re aiming for one every 3 or 4 months, and the last one was in January

Turelus · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

The cynical me believes the class feedback threads that are created every PTS cycle are simply for funneling all the PvP diehards, the arguing, the bickering, the "no, you" grade of discussion and all the vitriol into a few specific threads they can safely ignore, so it doesn't spread out and clutter up the entire PTS subforum.

Another thing that concerns me is that allegedly Wrobel & co. were listening very hard to the playtesters they had visit them, people always mention how receptive he seemed and how many notes he took - and then what we got here on the PTS in terms of class change was exactly the same as the playtesters had already revealed from their trip. Meaning that either all that feedback they gave them somehow didn't make it into the first cycle of PTS and will magically appear along the way - which I find somehow a bit hard to believe - or once again the "listening" didn't really result in any actual changes.
I tried very hard to find a single difference from the PTS patch notes and what was revealed a while ago by the playtesters here on the forums and on Reddit, and I can't find anything that's different.

I think they do read and listen to some extent, as when asked questions on ESO Live etc. Wrobel knows what the issues pointed out are, so he's seen it at some point. Whether he reads every single comment is another thing.

Every PTS I am always reminded of the post by a CCP Developer about "how to make a developer listen to you" where he commented why he only replies to some people and how having anger and ranting in your feedback makes it harder to digest the good bits he needs. Honestly sometimes I feel it should be required reading for literally everyone posting feedback on a game.

Here's the thread I made with it for those interested. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/98564/how-to-make-a-developer-listen-to-you

Carbonised · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

The cynical me believes the class feedback threads that are created every PTS cycle are simply for funneling all the PvP diehards, the arguing, the bickering, the "no, you" grade of discussion and all the vitriol into a few specific threads they can safely ignore, so it doesn't spread out and clutter up the entire PTS subforum.

Another thing that concerns me is that allegedly Wrobel & co. were listening very hard to the playtesters they had visit them, people always mention how receptive he seemed and how many notes he took - and then what we got here on the PTS in terms of class change was exactly the same as the playtesters had already revealed from their trip. Meaning that either all that feedback they gave them somehow didn't make it into the first cycle of PTS and will magically appear along the way - which I find somehow a bit hard to believe - or once again the "listening" didn't really result in any actual changes.
I tried very hard to find a single difference from the PTS patch notes and what was revealed a while ago by the playtesters here on the forums and on Reddit, and I can't find anything that's different.

I think they do read and listen to some extent, as when asked questions on ESO Live etc. Wrobel knows what the issues pointed out are, so he's seen it at some point. Whether he reads every single comment is another thing.

Every PTS I am always reminded of the post by a CCP Developer about "how to make a developer listen to you" where he commented why he only replies to some people and how having anger and ranting in your feedback makes it harder to digest the good bits he needs. Honestly sometimes I feel it should be required reading for literally everyone posting feedback on a game.

Here's the thread I made with it for those interested. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/98564/how-to-make-a-developer-listen-to-you

You are of course right in everything you write here =p

I'm just sort of wondering where all that supposed constructive dialogue between the playtesters and the combat team went. The PTS patch notes are literally the same as the changes that were revealed after the gettogether. If I were overly optimistic, I'd say they are perhaps coming some time later in the PTS cycle, but you know, I've been actively participating in the PTS-es for 2 years now, and we never see any great changes in the PTS cycle. It's always minor stuff, some tweaking, some number calculations, and that's it.

I mean, I'd love to be proven wrong, but it just seems like a lot of the very constructive feedback you ask for here end up in the lower drawer to collect dust, both feedback from these playtests and from great forum posts with detailed analyses and general consensus and praise.

Sabbathius · April 2018

Narvuntien wrote: »

Why would you?.... its a hive of scum and negativity.

Yes, yes, but that's also very telling. I mean, I think back to PTSes of other MMOs that I played. And it's like you said, when a change happens, in aggregate it's 50/50, half the people are happy, the other half unhappy. BUT it's a bit more nuanced than that. Usually 50% are happy. The other 50% breaks down into "I'm unhappy, but I understand why this was needed." or "I am unhappy, but the other changes compensate for this change." and so on. And even then, the unhappy people are usually unhappy about something very specific and niche, while being mostly happy about everything else.

By contrast, in ESO, when I visit PTS, almost EVERYONE is unhappy! It's not 50/50, it's 95/5 at best. And they're not just unhappy about something specific, most seem unhappy about general direction, not even individual changes. Which is a really bad sign. ESO is the only MMO I ever played, and I've been playing MMOs since Ultima Online, and MUDs before that, where I'm actually *dreading* patch notes of major patches and expansions, instead of looking forward to them.

The worst part is, like I said earlier, in other games' PTS there's often "I don't like it, but I understand it" part. This is almost nonexistent in ESO. There's too many changes that we don't like AND don't understand, because they make no blipping sense! Using DK flappers removing snares as an example, but not granting immunity. I mean...who thought this nonsense up? Within a day there was a video of a duel where the guy is doing nothing but spamming flappers, and he's STILL perma-snared. What was the point of the change? On what planet was that change even remotely useful? So can you blame people for reacting negatively? Another example, remember late in '16 when they were saying how they had these amazing things in the works for mDKs? And then in early '17, months later, they revealed their great idea was to give them a magicka-based heal, which healed for 33% of missing magicka? Remember that? The only reasonable feedback to something like that was, very justifiably in my opinion, "Are you insane?!" I mean...what else was there to say to that, really? To my mind, their flappers change in this week's PTS pretty much fits into that same category. No reasonable, sensible, informed person could have looked at it and said "Yes, this is OK, this solves a problem and makes this morph desirable".

And yes, I agree, we could be a little more constructive. Again, using flappers as an example, the reasonable feedback is "add 3-6 seconds of snare immunity on top of snare removal". But honestly, IF whoever is doing balancing actually requires something THIS OBVIOUS to be pointed out to them, THAT is the problem that needs to be "fixed". That, I think, is the root problem of all issues ZOS is facing. They are doing insanely short PTS cycles for something they call (and price as) expansions. We're getting "expansions" with PTS cycles of DLCs. But also the staff in charge of this stuff seems to be...how do I put this softly...not great at what they do? I'm hoping the new class representative initiative will help with that, but I'm not exactly holding my breath.

usmguy1234 · April 2018

I know Zos selected class representatives. They should be acting as liaisons compiling the data from these threads and presenting them to Zos. The class representatives should be informing the masses on the feedback from Zos. This seems to be the most logical flow of data. I think calling out Zos for not commenting on these threads is a little undue.

Turelus · April 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I know Zos selected class representatives. They should be acting as liaisons compiling the data from these threads and presenting them to Zos. The class representatives should be informing the masses on the feedback from Zos. This seems to be the most logical flow of data. I think calling out Zos for not commenting on these threads is a little undue.

I don't believe they've been chosen yet, if they have it's not public yet.

usmguy1234 · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I know Zos selected class representatives. They should be acting as liaisons compiling the data from these threads and presenting them to Zos. The class representatives should be informing the masses on the feedback from Zos. This seems to be the most logical flow of data. I think calling out Zos for not commenting on these threads is a little undue.

I don't believe they've been chosen yet, if they have it's not public yet.

If that is the case Zos needs to step up and get the ball rolling.