Stam DK PvP Issues

Dedricus

Hoping to see some balance changes for Stam DK in the next PTS build. I've compiled a small list of glaring issues below. There has been an ongoing thread on the pvp forum about it here. If you can get passed the whining, there are several insightful comments.

I do want to say, I recognize stam DK is overwhelmingly powerful in PvE and want changes that will not effect their performance for the better in that aspect of the game.

1. Lack of meaningful pressure and no burst outside of Leap/DB | Our only 2 dots can be cleansed by every class.
2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.
3. On top of bad healing, forced to run forward momentum for snare removal.
4. Pigeonholed into running Seventh Legion OR Fortified Brass for defense.
5. No mobility or ways to kite.
6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.
7. No group utility outside of minor brutality (useless for magicka users).

Curious to see what everyone else thinks.

NobleX35

8. No class spamable
9. No class execute
10. Unreliable gap closer that is not very realistic to use with a stam build.
11. Burst heal doesn't scale with stamina and costs too much magicka to reliably want to use it with a stam build.

We don't need everything to change, but a few of the issues at the very least should be addressed.

Ladislao

Dedricus wrote: »

Hoping to see some balance changes for Stam DK in the next PTS build. I've compiled a small list of glaring issues below. There has been an ongoing thread on the pvp forum about it here. If you can get passed the whining, there are several insightful comments.

I do want to say, I recognize stam DK is overwhelmingly powerful in PvE and want changes that will not effect their performance for the better in that aspect of the game.

1. Lack of meaningful pressure and no burst outside of Leap/DB | Our only 2 dots can be cleansed by every class.
2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.
3. On top of bad healing, forced to run forward momentum for snare removal.
4. Pigeonholed into running Seventh Legion OR Fortified Brass for defense.
5. No mobility or ways to kite.
6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.
7. No group utility outside of minor brutality (useless for magicka users).

Curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Then what do you think are their strengths? Let's start with it.

Dreth

GothicPython wrote: »

8. No class spamable
9. No class execute
10. Unreliable gap closer that is not very realistic to use with a stam build.
11. Burst heal doesn't scale with stamina and costs too much magicka to reliably want to use it with a stam build.

We don't need everything to change, but a few of the issues at the very least should be addressed.

These are the main culprits contributing to very limited build diversity for stam DK. You are pretty much stuck running a very narrow set of builds to account for these shortcomings, and none of these builds stack up to what the other stam classes are capable of.

Onefrkncrzypope

Ladislao wrote: »

Dedricus wrote: »

Hoping to see some balance changes for Stam DK in the next PTS build. I've compiled a small list of glaring issues below. There has been an ongoing thread on the pvp forum about it here. If you can get passed the whining, there are several insightful comments.

I do want to say, I recognize stam DK is overwhelmingly powerful in PvE and want changes that will not effect their performance for the better in that aspect of the game.

1. Lack of meaningful pressure and no burst outside of Leap/DB | Our only 2 dots can be cleansed by every class.
2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.
3. On top of bad healing, forced to run forward momentum for snare removal.
4. Pigeonholed into running Seventh Legion OR Fortified Brass for defense.
5. No mobility or ways to kite.
6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.
7. No group utility outside of minor brutality (useless for magicka users).

Curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Then what do you think are their strengths? Let's start with it.

Interesting question. They have a great ultimate(well the coolest looking ult) and with an argonian you can become unkillable by using CP passives and stacking mitigation (not block). Uh a passive for spell resist. Anything else is shared with every other class.

PvP wise

Dedricus

Ladislao wrote: »

Then what do you think are their strengths? Let's start with it.

That's exactly it, they don't have any that another class can't do better. They have no mobility. Wardens and NB have far superior burst. Their dot pressure and battle roar is the only thing that makes them "unique" but both just aren't very good in their current state.

Stam DK (in PvP) is by far the worst class and, in that regard, it's hard to look at any good aspects of them.

Dedricus

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Uh a passive for spell resist. Anything else is shared with every other class.

What if I told you Templars get the same passive but it also comes with weapon damage?

AverageJo3Gam3r

The issue with stam DKs in PvP is that they have no specialization. Due to DoTs being weak due to the burst-oriented meta and templar purges, you end up running mostly weapon skills. But stamsorcs have much better passives for pure weapon-line builds PLUS better mobility with hurricane+streak. On my stamDK, I run three class skills--leap, hardened armor, and igneous shield. Leap isn't special because everyone has DBoS, and every class has access to major armor buffs.

If you want a melee-ranged brawler, stamdens do it better. Shalks+DBoS is better burst, they provide more group support with icy fortress+trees, they have free access to major brutality so they're not tied to using 2H, and they have access to major expedition so they can escape when needed. Plus, they have a class spammable so damage is easier to stick. Dizzying swing only works against unskilled players. With block cost changes, our only way of survival is getting nerfed.

The few stamDKs that are having success are doing so due to stamina overall being in a good spot and sets that are overperforming (looking at you 7th legion). When 7th legion gets the inevitable nerf, stamDKs will be even worse.

I'd love to see stamDKs regain their mobile brawler feel. The changes to shifting standard were a start. Now let's make it poison damage. No one in PvE uses that morph anyways. Then fix one other issue. Either give major expedition to wings, or give us a class spammable #poisonwhip, or better defensive tools so that we don't have to be blockbots.

KramUzibra

Dedricus wrote: »

Hoping to see some balance changes for Stam DK in the next PTS build. I've compiled a small list of glaring issues below. There has been an ongoing thread on the pvp forum about it here. If you can get passed the whining, there are several insightful comments.

I do want to say, I recognize stam DK is overwhelmingly powerful in PvE and want changes that will not effect their performance for the better in that aspect of the game.

1. Lack of meaningful pressure and no burst outside of Leap/DB | Our only 2 dots can be cleansed by every class.
2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.
3. On top of bad healing, forced to run forward momentum for snare removal.
4. Pigeonholed into running Seventh Legion OR Fortified Brass for defense.
5. No mobility or ways to kite.
6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.
7. No group utility outside of minor brutality (useless for magicka users).

Curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Your not forced to run forward momentum. You can run medium and be just as viable if not more so

Xvorg

The only change I'd go to improve stam DK (effecting also mDK) is Stonefist. That skill has no place in any mDK or stamDK build (except the full heavy magicka build, but can be easily replaced with destro reach). So I'd gladly change it for a more useful skill in line with the Earthen Heart concept.

Something like this:

Lava Pool: Summon a pool of lava around you that deals x dmg for 6 secs and applies minor defile to all enemies around you while the pool is up.

And its morphs:

Swamp pool: Summon a pool of poison around you that deals x dmg for 6 secs and applies minor defile to all enemies around you while the pool is up. You get minor expedition for the duration of the pool.

-->Now is a stamina build and gives you minor exedition.

Lava Sink: Summon a pool of lava around you that deals y dmg for 6 secs and applies Major Defile to all enemies around you while the pool is up.

--> Decrease dmg, but now applies major defile

That's all.

Ocelot9x

What really bothers me is the lack of group utility. Stamdk is useless when small scaling.

Onefrkncrzypope

Dedricus wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Uh a passive for spell resist. Anything else is shared with every other class.

What if I told you Templars get the same passive but it also comes with weapon damage?

Oh I know just trying to list the positives for PvP

Anethum

Stam dk need some of this to be competitive:
1. Burst healing scaled stamina
2. Something for timing (for example to make morf of Inferno POISON based and scaled with stamina!) to be able to make burst if well timed.
3. Shifting standart stamina morf which can be prewferable for stamina class (maybe in pve also)
4. Something to counter snares - additional effect to one of the skills like removing snare or small time immunity. Actually, whole snares system should be changed in some way, maybe cooldown on able to snare opponent with same skill. Played thould work to snare opponent. Deny lazy fight.
5. To give Take flight post effect, for example roots like from Fossilize to make it differ more than DBoS
6. Maybe make stamina morf of Fossilize
7. More resourses from Helping hands and Battle Roar passives. Half a year we all see, that resourses for stam dk are completly overnerfed. For mag dk also if without Power lash. Trash. And trash what is done with that Power lash spam on pts. Broken trash to tie mag dk even more to this. Options, diversity...
8. Something to counter dots and debuffs. Which are hell strong now, especially both defiles. And, hell 30% uincrese cost resourses poisons (which are best friends of zergers).
9. Purge/purify generally should be changed. It makes all dot builds in game useless in pvp. U just spent resourses for nothing. 5 skills, tonn of stamina or magiska - then templar doing something with his hand and he's clear as a child. No matter on dk or another class. 2 strong. Maybe cooldown on ableness to purge same skill used on target after purge.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_Wrobel I hope u read.

P.s: Actually, I like idea of Poison Lash, its one of the most unique looking skills, but have no vision if it will not make stam dk extremly better in pve that other at the same time

ak_pvp

Class spammable/execute isn't as needed honestly.

Wings snare removal so rally can be used. And actually working wings so block isn't as forced.

World in ruin actually having use, on account that there are no proper aoe poison abilities.

Gdb: Scales off health or stam, whatever is higher. When hit under 50% health gain 1 ultimate and spray acidic blood aoe dealing y and inflicting minor vulnerability. This can occur once every 3s.

These would pretty much fix stamdk allowing it to use other weapons/defense and have own class based flair and small utility. Maybe run a proper dot build.

Ragnarock41

my biggest issue with sDk is the lack of literally everything.
It needs either a rework or a revert to pre-morrowind.

Ladislao

Dedricus wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Then what do you think are their strengths? Let's start with it.

That's exactly it, they don't have any that another class can't do better. They have no mobility. Wardens and NB have far superior burst. Their dot pressure and battle roar is the only thing that makes them "unique" but both just aren't very good in their current state.

Stam DK (in PvP) is by far the worst class and, in that regard, it's hard to look at any good aspects of them.

Good. So, below is my humble opinion on the listed items.

Immediately I will make a reservation that I conduct all my message in the context of stamina archetype.
At the same time, I do not pretend to the truth, this is just the opinion of another "expert on all issues" from the forum.

2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.

I totally disagree with it.
The presence of one of the strongest buffs on the heal, coupled with the passive ability to healing receive, opens access to the strongest heal. Plus Battle Roar can be the best panic button for emergency healing. Not to mention the availability of such an option as Dragon Blood for some cases.
Well, sorcerers and wardens have good alternatives to this, but clearly weaker. Templars and nightblades are not even close.

3. On top of bad healing, forced to run forward momentum for snare removal.

Every class is "forced" to use it, isn't it? Only wardens have a class passive ability that helps to deal with snares.
But in fact it is a common problem for every class. And each class has access to methods to counteract this (Forward Momentum, Shuffle, Mist Form, etc).

4. Pigeonholed into running Seventh Legion OR Fortified Brass for defense.

Another thing that is "forced"? Sorry, but throw the meta out of your head.

5. No mobility or ways to kite.

Well, if I understood the point correctly, this also applies to both templars and nightblades equally. I did not even consider wardens as their speed buff is very convenient (plus Nature's Grasp option, why not).
But in fact the only class that does not have this problem is sorcerer.
So let's consider this not a problem of four classes, but the merit of one, okay?

6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.

It is difficult to compare these abilities with those of other classes, because they all have different mechanics.
Templars get more, but they need corpses for this. Warden and Nightblades get a lot of stamina, but over time. Sorcerers have better conversion rate, but it can be easily interrupted.
So I'll just impartially say that Battle Roar and Helping Hands are ok.

7. No group utility outside of minor brutality (useless for magicka users).

Depends on the type of group and utilities that are needed.
Potentially, dks have useful utilities for the group, which can be used by stamina archetype. In practice, mages can do the same, but better.
But in general it is also a common problem for all classes.

1. Lack of meaningful pressure and no burst outside of Leap/DB | Our only 2 dots can be cleansed by every class.

I put in the end the point with which I agree that my post does not look like a continuous criticism

I think it is the only real problem. Dragon knights have a lot of damage but if there are no sources of pressure, then the enemy does not need anything just to counterattack, forcing them to defend themselves.

Templars at least have Backlash and undodgeable damaging Jabs. Sorcerers have Hurricane which inflicts, albeit uncritical, but pressing and constant damage. Nightblades have Shadow Cloak (with sudden burst) and Grim Focus to constantly keep your opponent in suspense. And there are Dive and Scorch for wardens.
Potentially, Dragon Knights have Inferno for it. But unfortunately it does not fulfill this task.

So it turns out that the only method of pressure is to try to deal damage by taking out incoming damage. The so-called "stand your ground". And in my opinion this is the main problem.

Machete

Biggest issue with stam DK is a lack of utility. As much as I love my stam DK, my Warden does everything better. Having a class execute isn't needed, we have survived long enough without it. You guys in ZOS have so many abilities that fit a mag DK, and not a stam DK. It's high time we turned Molten Whip into Toxic Whip. The skill lost use in PVE, and it's our turn to get a main spamable. Just give Toxic Whip the same treatment as Cutting Dive, and that's only a stam morph. Venomous and Noxious are great, chains can stay with Mag DKs Flames of Oblivion should convert to poison damage when on a stam toon (See Templar's Burning Light and Sorcerer's Implosion for inspiration).

Spikes? Keep it like it is. A stam morph of Talons would be nice, but not required. GDB would be nice to see as a stam burst heal, but I can see it's use in PVE tanking. WINGS NEEDS AN OVERHAUL! If you don't wanna take a page from our new, better cousin, the Warden, give it snare removal, reflect all projectiles for 6 seconds. Would certainly make it useful once more, considering Shield Ult does that anyway. And for all thats holy, stop making everything go through reflect. Especially considering that reflects range after 20 meters is actually worthless, and you can still get damaged after 20 meters. Inhale can stay magical, that's fine.

Stonefist is good for duels, keep it like it is. Molten Armaments is the strongest part of PVE, heavy attack builds are way to predictably anymore (Thank Miat's addon). Igneous is honestly fine, keep it and don't listen to the no healing whatever's. We still have instant action to major mending and any stam DK worth there salt knows how to use it. Eh... Fossilize. Eruption would be cool with a stam morph, but eh. Battle Roar is actually ok, but at least adjust Helping Hands.

I don't mind stam DK not having mobility or a lack of an execute, we have survived long enough without it. But everyone can predict a stam DKs rotation anymore. Dizzy Swimg sucks, and I would love to see this class amazing for PVP. Hope my worthless rant helped!

P.S. BUFF WINGS and #StamWhip

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Can we just go back to the early days of patch (1.7?) or so where stamDK was on top of the pack and try to figure out why it was so strong then?

I know that Wrecking blow (stun+empower) into dragon leap was pretty huge but there was more than that. That was before the igneous nerf too. What else made stamDK so strong back in the day?

Also, dragon leaping into keeps was just about the most fun you could possibly have in a video game.

Solariken

Dedricus wrote: »

2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.

6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.

IMO the above are the only real issues facing sDk, and you are spot on with these. The changes to BR and HH we're a big buff to mDk and big nerf to sDk.

Personally I think all we need is 5 seconds of Major Mending and Helping Hands to be changed back to a % of max pool.

Yes Warden will still be better but that OP monster needs nerfed.

Jjitsuboy98

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Can we just go back to the early days of patch (1.7?) or so where stamDK was on top of the pack and try to figure out why it was so strong then?

I know that Wrecking blow (stun+empower) into dragon leap was pretty huge but there was more than that. That was before the igneous nerf too. What else made stamDK so strong back in the day?

Also, dragon leaping into keeps was just about the most fun you could possibly have in a video game.

Rally in heavy armor helped with healing now forward momentum is needed because shuffle nerf.
Heavy armor with Black Rose helped with sustain.
Proc sets helped with burst as they could crit like viper.
Igneous Nerf.
Morrowind resource Nerf
Battle roar nerf

Really sets and other skill lines have hurt them the most when nerfed as Stam dk really has never relied much on its own skills.

Recremen

The lack of usefulness in a group is why I had to make Second Men'Do after getting my main to Grand Overlord. It's like night and day comparing what I bring to the table as a stam Warden versus as a stam DK. Maybe stam Dk does well solo or in very small groups, I couldn't tell you, but he's strictly going to be a PvE character now beyond what I have to invest in battlegrounds for achievement purposes.

Durham

I have played my stam dk for several years .. The last 6 months had been rough... I know several people that have left the game because they have seen a class that they enjoyed nerfed in the last 3 updates to the point it's no longer that fun....In the late spring update there were 9 meta DK stam nerf .. we have continued receive them..

Aerem

Solariken wrote: »

Dedricus wrote: »

2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.

6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.

IMO the above are the only real issues facing sDk, and you are spot on with these. The changes to BR and HH we're a big buff to mDk and big nerf to sDk.

Personally I think all we need is 5 seconds of Major Mending and Helping Hands to be changed back to a % of max pool.

Yes Warden will still be better but that OP monster needs nerfed.

The changes to BR were not a buff to Mdk, far from it, I would take the old battle roar in an instant.

Dedricus

Aerem wrote: »

The changes to BR were not a buff to Mdk, far from it, I would take the old battle roar in an instant.

Considering Magicka DKs makes BETTER use of stamina than Stamina DKs make of their magicka, it could be considered a small buff. Even then, the HH change definitely gave Mag DKs even more stamina to play with.

Let's not derail here. The post is about Stam DKs getting more attention, not crapping on Mag DKs

Ragnarock41

Solariken wrote: »

Dedricus wrote: »

2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.

6. Flat resources on Battle Roar and Helping Hands heavily favor magicka, considering they don’t use their primary resource for mobility and blocking.

IMO the above are the only real issues facing sDk, and you are spot on with these. The changes to BR and HH we're a big buff to mDk and big nerf to sDk.

Personally I think all we need is 5 seconds of Major Mending and Helping Hands to be changed back to a % of max pool.

Yes Warden will still be better but that OP monster needs nerfed.

I agree with this.
Most of the time I can't focus on landing my combos because I'm more busy with healing myself and
I HATE SPAMMING IGNEOUS EVERY 3 SECONDS. would be a lot better if they increased the cost instead of nerfing the mending duration...
Don't underestimate the importance of GCDs, the nerf was not only to overall healing to stamDKs, but also affected our pressure capabilities because now we spend more time healing, spamming igneous etc.. instead of what we should be doing.. (Which is landing that dizzy swing)

And then the sustain seriously favors magDks , the extra stamina helps them permablock,break free, run around, but the extra magicka stamDK gets is simply wasted. I don't have a way of utilizing the extra magicka, and igneous shield is so bad that I'm actually considering green dragon blood sometimes. for the buffs, obviously not for the crappy 3k heal from it.

So TL:DR, bring back pre-morrowind Dk and all is solved really.

HeroOfNone

Stam DK isn't totally without use in PVP, but it's constantly getting pushed back to use heavy armor to 1vX multiple or hoping friends don't show up to finish the fight for their buddies so they can teabag you.

For damage DOTs in general give good pressure if you can hit your targets, but enemies dodge roll or put up major evasion to ignore the hits, even dodging the damage ticks in the past. Purging also removes the effectiveness of the DK, which means templars and wardens you need to keep constant pressure up to make sure they have to keep clensing.atop of this DKS are also great damage when using heavy attacks, but most heavy attacks take too long for PVP and you'll get CCED or dodges unless your doing things like canceling with a gap closer, which I'm still not sure is not an exploit.

The DK also has a limited number of Class CCs, one being the ultimate and 2 magicka. Stonefist and petrify work ok for this, but you have limited magicka to start with. That leaves weapon abilities like magnum shot or dizzying swing to help fill the gap. I should mention chains is OP for group plan, but lacks effectiveness for 1v1 and also has some annoying bugs trying to pass thresholds like gate doors. Players have also complained about being lagget after pulled.

AOEwise, DKS are lacking. Noxious breath and leap are the main two while magicka has the rest, which most won't use anyway. Weapon skill wise we're also limited as steel tornado is stamina heavy and most bow abilities as static location.

So, where does this leave the DK? A position where it can't burst and has to keep up constant DOTS on a player but can't AOE effectively so you need to single target down players as they run into a group of their teammates. So most play tanky characters to chase or to run away and kite when multiple show up. If you're looking to duel a DK can seem to hold theur own in a lot of cases, but they fall short on the open world competition unless you get someone that is really chasing after them and ignoring their resources.


How can we fix this? Not sure. Messing with damage or effects risks tipping the balance for PVE. But here are some possible items:

Deep breath: make a morph & leave as a magicka ability but have it scale on weapon damage and stamina. When used it will reduce the cost of the next X abilities based on the number of targets hit. X is the number of abilities it effects, wit a possible cap. would give a unique skill that aids other high stamina cost abilities like caltrops or steel tornado. It also wouldn't reduce its self or restoration stamina that would result in a perma block situation.it could potentially still restore health or interrupt, depending on balance.

Igneous weapons: we all use the molten morph for boosting heavy attacks, in magicka & stamina builds. Set Igneous to give brutality and boost light attacks. Ithe should be high enough that PVE won't want it but high enough to make a difference here in pvp.

Flames of Oblivion: this is falling out of favor as a PVE skill and even the healing morph is laughable to most. My thought is it should work set a burning debuff that prevents enemies from stealth information and casts motes of fire at stealthed enemies. But that sound like a damaging version of mages light, it lacks anything unique to a stamina DK


Now for other abilities I think we could do with more debuffs like minor defile or something unique like minor Enervation, cowardice, uncertainty, etc. to raise the cost on some abilities or to reduce critical ratings/damage. Yes they can be purged but Purging isn't healing or damaging.

Anyhow, I think a solution or two that can help the Stam DK when they redo the class lines, hopefully they won't take all year.

Put

2. Igneous shield/healing is far worse than any other class despite having healing passives.

I totally disagree with it.
The presence of one of the strongest buffs on the heal, coupled with the passive ability to healing receive, opens access to the strongest heal. Plus Battle Roar can be the best panic button for emergency healing. Not to mention the availability of such an option as Dragon Blood for some cases.
Well, sorcerers and wardens have good alternatives to this, but clearly weaker. Templars and nightblades are not even close.

Stamblades can cloak and guarantee a crit heal, easily a bigger 'panic button' than igneous, which is a tiny shield which increases the healing of one or two vigor ticks before major mending runs out.

I don't understand how you can say Templars aren't close to this healing, they can purify all negative effects and heal to full almost instantly when they drop all buffs, there is a reason templars are so good for kiting on.

Ragnarock41

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Stam DK isn't totally without use in PVP, but it's constantly getting pushed back to use heavy armor to 1vX multiple or hoping friends don't show up to finish the fight for their buddies so they can teabag you.

For damage DOTs in general give good pressure if you can hit your targets, but enemies dodge roll or put up major evasion to ignore the hits, even dodging the damage ticks in the past. Purging also removes the effectiveness of the DK, which means templars and wardens you need to keep constant pressure up to make sure they have to keep clensing.atop of this DKS are also great damage when using heavy attacks, but most heavy attacks take too long for PVP and you'll get CCED or dodges unless your doing things like canceling with a gap closer, which I'm still not sure is not an exploit.

The DK also has a limited number of Class CCs, one being the ultimate and 2 magicka. Stonefist and petrify work ok for this, but you have limited magicka to start with. That leaves weapon abilities like magnum shot or dizzying swing to help fill the gap. I should mention chains is OP for group plan, but lacks effectiveness for 1v1 and also has some annoying bugs trying to pass thresholds like gate doors. Players have also complained about being lagget after pulled.

AOEwise, DKS are lacking. Noxious breath and leap are the main two while magicka has the rest, which most won't use anyway. Weapon skill wise we're also limited as steel tornado is stamina heavy and most bow abilities as static location.

So, where does this leave the DK? A position where it can't burst and has to keep up constant DOTS on a player but can't AOE effectively so you need to single target down players as they run into a group of their teammates. So most play tanky characters to chase or to run away and kite when multiple show up. If you're looking to duel a DK can seem to hold theur own in a lot of cases, but they fall short on the open world competition unless you get someone that is really chasing after them and ignoring their resources.


How can we fix this? Not sure. Messing with damage or effects risks tipping the balance for PVE. But here are some possible items:

Deep breath: make a morph & leave as a magicka ability but have it scale on weapon damage and stamina. When used it will reduce the cost of the next X abilities based on the number of targets hit. X is the number of abilities it effects, wit a possible cap. would give a unique skill that aids other high stamina cost abilities like caltrops or steel tornado. It also wouldn't reduce its self or restoration stamina that would result in a perma block situation.it could potentially still restore health or interrupt, depending on balance.

Igneous weapons: we all use the molten morph for boosting heavy attacks, in magicka & stamina builds. Set Igneous to give brutality and boost light attacks. Ithe should be high enough that PVE won't want it but high enough to make a difference here in pvp.

Flames of Oblivion: this is falling out of favor as a PVE skill and even the healing morph is laughable to most. My thought is it should work set a burning debuff that prevents enemies from stealth information and casts motes of fire at stealthed enemies. But that sound like a damaging version of mages light, it lacks anything unique to a stamina DK


Now for other abilities I think we could do with more debuffs like minor defile or something unique like minor Enervation, cowardice, uncertainty, etc. to raise the cost on some abilities or to reduce critical ratings/damage. Yes they can be purged but Purging isn't healing or damaging.

Anyhow, I think a solution or two that can help the Stam DK when they redo the class lines, hopefully they won't take all year.

even for a dot build, bursting is key.
That is the reason most dot builds are stamblades or stamsorcs with dual wield/2h setups and they make it even stronger with the use of weapon poisons and suprise attack/flurry spam for even more pressure.

those builds made me stop playing stamDK as a dot build, because they were more effective than me at dotting people to death.

noxious breath is a laughable dot compared to the things I listed above, and I mainly used it for major fracture, then later I left it for puncture, which is hella easier and cheaper to use ,
but the venomous claws is competitive with other dots , only problem is, venomous claws does most of its damage after the first 5 seconds, Its added pressure as the time goes on, BUT, here is the problem with this, people purge, shield spam, or they just cloak to completely negate the damage from it.

that leaves stamDK dots almost useless for PvP, but very strong for PvE, because mobs wont purge, they wont cloak, they wont put up 3 shields to negate the crits from your dots. mobs will just sit and eat all the damage.

I recently tried a stamDK build that uses wrecking blow for empowered leaps, and petrify as a main CC, and yes, it is a medium armor build. You don't need cloak to survive on medium. Thats a lie bad stamblades use to justify their cloak spamming.
While I did find decent success with it, I realized my stam warden was doing much higher damage and didnt even need the empower from wrecking blow. Which led me back to my first question; why play stamDk over anything else?

There is no right answer, to that question.

Jjitsuboy98

But they are not changing any skills around this patch for DK. We need a cyrodil PVP update. PVP must not be what drives this game as there is hardly any focus anymore.

Dedricus

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

But they are not changing any skills around this patch for DK. We need a cyrodil PVP update. PVP must not be what drives this game as there is hardly any focus anymore.

We don't know that yet. They typically do balance updates in the second PTS cycle.

Quantum_V

Agree on most points.

Thing is there's little reason to play a stamDK when you can do everything better with stam Warden. The arguments hovering above DKs overall performance in pvp always congregate into the same point: It's an outdated class.[/

Dks are not bad, they're just outdated when compared to the current state of the game

• Sustain is tough as we depend on battle roar and have expensive skills - but there's no dynamic ulti regen anymore. (+nerf to battle roar)
• Major mending made DKs brawlers - oops, wardens got it better.
• we had high burst damage tough, leap is undodgeable - wait, wardens have a even bigger burst potential

No point in playing DK (specially stamDK) now...

Just update the class to the current state of the game. Updating passives could be a great way to start!