PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Templar Balance
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Solinur✭✭✭
Using the "Max" values (on the right side):
4 * Puncturing Sweeps + 1 * Burning Light = 31075
Solar Barrage * 4 = 35676Edited by Solinur on April 17, 2018 10:35PM@Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author3 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
I think you are right. This looks like the shift I mentioned earlier where they are starting to swap the trees. Having SB give better cleave DMG means that you'll have reflective light giving your dot and ranged spamable, eclipse is your ranged defense, purfying light is your burst, and we have a ranged execute.
Not how I expected the class would go towards honestly.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
I think you are right. This looks like the shift I mentioned earlier where they are starting to swap the trees. Having SB give better cleave DMG means that you'll have reflective light giving your dot and ranged spamable, eclipse is your ranged defense, purfying light is your burst, and we have a ranged execute.
Not how I expected the class would go towards honestly.
I'm intrigued to try it out. Solo staffplar will now be about lining up tons of delayed burst (Purifying Light + that Psijic explode thing; even stronger if you toss in Unstable Core) while surviving the 6 seconds between each burst. That burst combo can go off even if you're block-casting HtD too, somewhat alleviating the old problem of not being able to come off the defensive. But that just won't be as fun for me as being a melee brawler. I guess that's what my stamplar is for.
7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.0 -
eso_nya✭✭✭✭✭
✭PvE grp content: healing.
Tooltips for healing@cost:
Hasty Prayer - 8517@6270
Honor the Dead - 8525@3948 (1580)
Energy Orb - 15400@3948 (over full duration)
Combat Prayer - 4251@3251
Illustrious Healing - 8525@3019 (over full duration)
Even when reducing the cost of Hasty Prayer by 60% there is barely any reason using it over Illustrious Healing, cause it is not ranged (have to move in melee range for it) and also doesnt proc dsa staff. Not enough slots for a remotely situationally useful skill.
Removal of Casttime is good. Cost is bad, makes it useless.4 -
Anazasi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Healing Ritual: This ability and its morphs no longer have a cast time; they are now instant cast abilities that heal for the same amount. Their costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 3780 Magicka.
This ability cost is too high. Even at 3780 it was way ( 32% compared to my warden healer) higher than Warden Budding seeds (2980) which as you all know heals for as much as hasty prayer as a ranged heal. They removed so many of the templar buffs when they introduced the warden healing class it just makes no sense to increase the cost of this point blank AOE heal ability. You can also argue that the change to insta cast does not warrant almost doubling the cost because there are no cast time heals out there accept what the Templar currently has. Even if you want to argue over the addition of minor expedition as justification for the increased cost you can't because for the last 4 years templars have been the ONLY class without a class ability that grants minor expedition. Since launch templars have been forced to go vamp because the class has suffered mobility issues, you simply can't justify the increase cost for this ability on any level. This is suppose to be about class balance not giving something that should have been changed years ago and then forcing fundamental changes in builds to accommodate new toys.
(Magic Templar of course)
I am finding when compared to Healing Springs the cost is probably too high for the new Ritual.
Healing Springs in practice will heal for 80% of Ritual (over 4 seconds) and assuming you hit yourself and 2 other people will cost 3.5X less than Ritual.
20% more healing for 250% cost increase seems a little silly to me.
% reductions will have a greater effect on the larger magicka amount, but that is probably too large of a gap to close.
I guess it's the tradeoff for being burst rather than a HoT which makes it even better for pvp
Im able to pop budding seeds twice as long as i can predict the path of the group. I stay out of danger and still provide a very strong instant heal. It's not balanced correctly simply put in pvp healing springs hits for 2 - 4k crit nothing compared to the 8 to 12k crits i can pop on budding seeds in PVP at a whopping cost of 2188 magic. Compared to the templar heal 8 to 12k burst for 6334 magic.3 -
Solinur✭✭✭The thing is that this is single target, on multi it is even stronger.
Well if it replaces Sweeps the cast time is the same. So it can fit well in existing rotations.
In PvP its a different story, of course.Edited by Solinur on April 17, 2018 10:58PM@Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author0 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭Restoring Light
Breath of Life (Rushed Ceremony morph): Reduced the healing done from this morph’s secondary heal by approximately 33%.
Hasty Prayer (Healing Ritual morph): This morph now grants Minor Expedition to you and your allies for 5 seconds.
Healing Ritual: This ability and its morphs no longer have a cast time; they are now instant cast abilities that heal for the same amount. Their costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 3780 Magicka.
Honor the Dead (Rushed Ceremony morph): This morph now refunds part of the ability’s cost over 6 seconds, down from 8 seconds.[/i]
@ZOS_GinaBruno- Breath of Life: Twilight Matriarch (Sorcerer) and Enchanted Growth (Warden) is clearly superior. Very superior!
- Healing Ritual and its morphs: Their costs have been increased by 100%? WTF?! Very high!
- Honor the Dead: ...over 6 seconds, down from 8 seconds? Over 4 seconds! And so it's balanced with the recent change made with Malevolent Offering (Nightblade).
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danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
After reading this and being puzzled at the idea, I tried replacing Sweeps with Solar Barrage. I lost around 4k DPS. This includes a full rotation with plenty of Light Attacks.
Barrage may hit higher than Sweeps per tick, but Sweeps hits 4 times a second, Barrage hits once every 2 seconds. The two are not even comparable DPS wise. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from on this one.
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templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
After reading this and being puzzled at the idea, I tried replacing Sweeps with Solar Barrage. I lost around 4k DPS. This includes a full rotation with plenty of Light Attacks.
Barrage may hit higher than Sweeps per tick, but Sweeps hits 4 times a second, Barrage hits once every 2 seconds. The two are not even comparable DPS wise. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from on this one.
Have you factored in sustain in that you cannot just spam sweeps?1 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
After reading this and being puzzled at the idea, I tried replacing Sweeps with Solar Barrage. I lost around 4k DPS. This includes a full rotation with plenty of Light Attacks.
Barrage may hit higher than Sweeps per tick, but Sweeps hits 4 times a second, Barrage hits once every 2 seconds. The two are not even comparable DPS wise. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from on this one.
Did you use Imbue Weapons? The idea is that Imbue is the new spammable.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
I think you are right. This looks like the shift I mentioned earlier where they are starting to swap the trees. Having SB give better cleave DMG means that you'll have reflective light giving your dot and ranged spamable, eclipse is your ranged defense, purfying light is your burst, and we have a ranged execute.
Not how I expected the class would go towards honestly.
I'm intrigued to try it out. Solo staffplar will now be about lining up tons of delayed burst (Purifying Light + that Psijic explode thing; even stronger if you toss in Unstable Core) while surviving the 6 seconds between each burst. That burst combo can go off even if you're block-casting HtD too, somewhat alleviating the old problem of not being able to come off the defensive. But that just won't be as fun for me as being a melee brawler. I guess that's what my stamplar is for.
That playstyle for magplar is as old as the game itself, people just have been spoiled by the move to casualness of the game. When proxy and inevitable det reigned, the game revolved around timing your burst in a short frame and lasting until then. I’m sure I’d be able to dig up videos of doing it myself from years ago. That was the peak of this game.0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If solar barrage were made instant, it would be fine. Right now it's still useless. Dark flare is going to be less useful with a cast time as well now that the empower wont work on subsequent flares.
PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0 -
Hymzir✭✭✭✭✭
✭So... Um, yeah... Templar changes. Right. This is what I was writing about in that thread Joy Division made about Templars needing changes since the game has evolved.
I told you that ZOS would not fix Templars, not intentionally anyway. They are either living in some alternate bizarro world where the nonsense that is Templar is actually valid or alternatively they just don't give a ***. Either way, Templars are screwed.Also keep in mind that this is it - they will not change anything else. At best you can hope they will tweak a number here and another there. But this is it for this update. Nothing we will say will change their minds. That is something all of us should realize by now. Whatever ZOS pushes out on the PTS is what will be in the next update.
The only possibility for hope, is that someone figures out a way to combine some gear set, some of the new Psijic skills and the fairly nutty changes to light attacks and empower into something viable. I mean, I can almost see it myself, if Solar barrage didn't have that cast time. We'd still have bad mobility, and would need to recast our buffs after each rotation, since staying put in our circles is not a viable option for actual gameplay.
But the cast time on SB makes that sound really clunky, and in the end we would be spending more time preparing our combo and applying our buffs than actually doing damage. So can't really see it as viable.
Now with no cast time on SB, and our self buffs sticking to us and having a comparable duration to other classes i.e. at least 20 secs, then... Yeah I can kinda see it being viable... But only kinda since landing hits with jabs is still pretty much impossible against non-brain dead targets.
And oh yea... Stamplars can just go suck it in a corner, even if all that were to happen.
As for the actual changes... Well they follow the standard formula: a minor buff here, a minor nerf there, another attempt to get us use Healing Ritual and a nerf to BoL for *** and giggles. No meaningful rework on the class or it's passive and no fixes to any of the actual issues.
I switched to using Honor the Dead on magicka builds ages ago, so it's cool it got buffed slightly (though not something I felt to be necessary in anyway, but what ever - a buff is a buff right), And since I already dumped BoL, it's nerf is irrelevant. It just means that Templars have a new addition to the collection of useless morphs. Yay!
The addition of Minor Expedition to Hasty Prayer feels really random to me - and am gonna mercilessly mock anyone who seriously thinks this will give Templars mobility(it wont, it's tacked on an expensive skill, is only Minor and will not solve the issue with our ground based buffs.) I just don't see any reason to use this over Honor the Dead.
But you know who are gonna be using it? Zergball pocket healers. I mean think about it - it's tailor made for them. They can cast a full strength BoL on everyone in the group, and give the ball minor expedition as an added bonus, making the Eye of Flame train run over others even faster. I sometimes wonder what is wrong with the people behind these ideas...
The Dawn's Wrath changes are mostly meaningless, since all the skills in the tree are kinda bad, except Backlash, and am just waiting for it to be nerfed to the ground too, since people keep whining about it. But I suppose they are saving that for the next update, since they have pretty much finished making BoL useless, and will need a new target for their nerfs.
Sunfire and it's morphs are also okay, but due to being Fire damage, when everything else in the Templar arsenal is Magic damage, that too gets a down vote from me. I suppose the Fire bit does make it useful against vampires but... Yeah, I'd much prefer to have a Magic damage on that too, but can understand if someone prefers fire.
It's nice that they finally undid the nerf to Puncturing Sweeps they made due to the "constant Major Mending uptime" debacle few updates ago, too bad that the skill itself is still really crappy and as far as I can tell, there is still that bugged CP calculation dragging it down. But the real issue is that due to lag, and the wonky targeting, and it's channeled nature make it really really really hard to use in PVP. You will not hit anything with it, and even if you do, it doesn't do that much damage and the heals are low as is, so yeah... whatever.
The buff to Burning light is another random change - I mean sure, I'll take it, but what was the reasoning behind the change?
Besides, am not really a fan of the idea of placing Templar DPS behind a proc. The only reliable way of getting use out of this passive is by using either Spear and it's morphs or Puncturing and it's morphs, and the first option isn't really an option for stamplars. With Puncturing and it's morphs having all those issues on hitting other players, there isn't really a reliable or useful way to get this thing to proc in PVP as a stamplar. And spear has it's on slew of issues too. Besides the cooldown on the passive itself limits it's overall usefulness anyway. Either lower the cooldown (or just get rid of it) or make it per target based or something .
In anycase, it will make dealing with PVE mobs faster, so there is that at least. And since I stopped doing PVP on my templar, I suppose none of it really matters that much in the end.3 -
Mihael✭✭✭✭So, done a bit of testing and have to say patchnotes 4.0.0 are most disappointed patchnotes I remember and not coz Templar changes but coz compare of how mechanic switches were implemented through other classes changes and it looked like bugs we reported are simply ignored.
1. So, as patchnotes claim:
And yet Templar that is worse tank in game received zero buffs to its tanking capability... Why?ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »- Increasing the viability of all classes to perform the tank and healer roles: Some class skills have received significant updates to help improve their ability to tank and heal dungeon and Trial content.
Could start from changing Spear Wall in line with other classes passives, especially such as Iron Skin - i.e. make it independent from skill tree slots to promote frost tanking for templars. Yet nothing was done.
2. Puncturing Sweeps:
As expected testers were wrong and skill didn't got 5% damage buff...
Snare of it that I reported as bug for some unknown reason officially stated to be dodgeable:
I don't understand how CC effect that applayable by undodgeable attack suppose to be dodgeable, what is this weird inconsistence in Templar skill?ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »[*]The following now cannot be dodged:- Puncturing Strikes and morphs (snare only)
Jabs damage: What I see from creating unupgrated template pre-update and check it after update:
Sweeps pre/after Update:
Same goes for Biting Jabs. Why does closest damage decreased again? I want to see reports from NA players with their copied characters to test it.
[b3] Spear Shards[/b]:
it still despite being instant damage ability is fully considered DoT and buff by dot cp. SO, how does instant damage ability is considered Damage over time? I guess I should stop reporting it as bug than. Reporting it for year made no effect.
4. Burning Light:
9% buff for single target ability.
So, this is parse of test dps build of Alcast:
In PvE does it really possible that 9% buff of something that is 5% in single target dps rotation will grant any reliable dps boost? Somehow I really doubt it.
In PvP once again Templar mechanic got ignored from global mechanic changes. As it was stated that damage coming inside or on target cant be blocked nor dodged, like Implosion that you cant nor dodge nor block... And yet Burning Light is blockable. Why? 9% to double reduced and blocked damage equal to nothing.
Pointless cosmetic buff^^.
5. Honor the Dead:
the one and only flawlessly good buff that equal to reduce it cost for 3%.
6. Nova/Enduring Rays:
1. It unclear and embarrassing how Shifting Standart that is already superior to Nova, yet Nova didn't received reduce of its cost. Why?
2. Enduring Rays patchnotes state misleading information about it coz it is not 0.5sec upon level but 1/2sec.
3. And now how new Enduring Rays affect Nova. Pre-update and after update:
It deal damage often than described 1 sec, and thus damage fractions that suppose to disappear are actually resulted in damage nerf. As you can count pre update it dealt 12 ticks and after update Nova deal 11 ticks. We lost 1 tick of damage now.
4. Solar Disturbance - description of snare disappeared from tooltip changed for maim affect targets outside of Nova for 4/6sec. But yet SD does snare enemies inside of it. Is it bug or intended ninja mechanic? Apparently bug.
5. While Bolstering Darkness buffed to apply debuff for full time and Shifting Standart got reduced cost, Only thing Is Nova got is damage nerf and only 4sec of maim. Why maim wasn't made something like 6/8 or better reduced cost? Considering its 6sec of maim in trial is like 18ult, even less than Shifting Standart buff, even against immobile targets..
6. Unlike Bolstering it cleansable and every group have dedicated purge-spammers who will get rid of debuff anyway. Darkness is cheaper and 16sec, Shifting Standart is cheaper and both is stronger than Nova coz uncleansable buff/debuff...
Recap: Nova deserved ultimate cost nerf or duration of maim longer more than other ults, its totally unfair right now.
7. Dark Flare/Solar Barrage:
While Solar Barrage got finally synergy of its empower+light attacks inbetween channel spam to be buff to dps capability - keeping it as cast time ability is still ruin this synergy. And still Barrage bugged wand while considered DoT it actually cant buffed by dot cp but buffing through direct damage cp. Reported it since change of skill and still nothing..
Dark Flare - testers reported that dodgeable debuff was changed back to be undodgeable, yet on current pts major defile debuff is dodgeable:
Does ZoS changed mind and for some reason decided to nerf ability back coz it debuff now 2sec longer? Why is it again Templars is class that suffer from weird mechanic where enemy can somehow dodge AoE?
8. Eclipse:
Nothing was done regarding this CC again and its inconsistence. It apply CC Immunity on expire, it even still apply CC Immunity on cleansing, making it just worse than Luminous disorient against other Templars or purge spammers. And allow simply ignore CC Immunity and spam it on cooldown..
And even buff Total Dark got is considered nerf to Unstable Core:
due to Enduring Rays duration of Eclipse prolonged for 1more sec to total 6. Yet for Core it means that time bomb will explode 1sec later than previously, that is decreasing of skill dps output because bomb became timer that independent to CC Break. Maybe tie it back to remove this dps decrease?
9. Remembrance:
While nb Soul Siphon is now insane 28m radius with all its buffs I described in Joy's thread as it was reported by testers, our Remembrance that should help at small-scale/solo still disable caster and now have even less radius than nb healing ult. As I was questioning before - what the point of Remembrance ultimate at all now when resto ult provide stronger single heal and nb healing ult provide greater survivability to both caster and his group? It should be changed to ground based or char single target heal coz we have Practiced Incantation for full group/zerg support already.
10. Rune Focus:
The fact that it didn't received treatment of being attached to caster instead of ground is slap in the Templar face.
Lets see - Bolstering Darkness now dont grant ground based major protection but instead of was completely redone to fall in category of long duration buffs that independent to positioning and is buf fwithout duration tied to duration of ultimate. In case of Darkness - it is now apply 16sec of ult duration major protection on everyone who stepped into circle and ticking along with global duration of ultimate. It means - fully portable Major Protection for caster and any teammates. Ground based aoe with independent buff to everyone.
And now we have Rune Focus that still just ticking for 8sec. Templar House people say that worth of staying inside... Well, there is Cinder Storm now for dk that apply aoe healing inside that equal to healing of Rapid Regen. House that Templar can only dream about.
What should be done is treat it same as nb with their Bolstering Darkness was treated: you cast this divine protection rune that debuff enemies inside by snare and make its armor and morphs buffs be independent to positioning but being dependant to duration of skill itself.
11. Bloodthon set:
Nothing was done to fix this set in synenrgy with revamped templar skills: Backlash initial cast that is direct attack is not proccing it, Eclipse and Unstable Core procs that is considered direct damage attack still not proc set.
Recap: majority of bugs I reported during previous Dragonbones pts months ago were ignored?... Majority of changes that Templars suppose to get were simply granted to other classes and changes causing only questions why it was done..
P.S.: those who played psijic guild quest could see Golden Knight's amazing light abilities, like sun shield charge, dawnbreaker aoe wrath... Why couldn't such visually great ability granted to Templar, for example sun shiled charge instead of buggy Templar Charge?
Let’s not let this thread get put in the back
@ZOS_GinaBruno if you haven’t already read this post and all the other good ones in this thread ty3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabs damage: What I see from creating unupgrated template pre-update and check it after update:
Sweeps pre/after Update:
Same goes for Biting Jabs. Why does closest damage decreased again? I want to see reports from NA players with their copied characters to test it.
@Cinbri
Follow up here. I did manage to do a little testing. I did not double check my tooltips, but I can report that Puncturing Sweeps is doing the exact same damage to a target skeleton on PTS as on Live under various conditions (major breech yes/no, Minor vulnerability yes/no).
Structured Entropy, however, was not. It was doing less damage. They definitely changed the Structured Entropy's animation.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Did you wave it into a stamplar rotation? If so, please share. I tried, but failed to get this working on overland monsters (crocs, hoavors... imps worked tho).0 -
TheNightflame✭✭✭✭✭Just want to give a shoutout to the great templars out there, truly acting as such and always coming in with the best class feedback and testing despite the drought of beneficial changes/responses. You guys are da real templars, what the ones in the game should be
1 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @Bonzodog01 @GallantGuardian @technohic @Minno @Twohothardware @dodgehopper_ESO @Soris @Swen_von_Walhallion
Templar Stamina suffers with sustain, right? I have a great suggestion here!
Channeled Focus (Rune Focus morph)- (...) You also recover Magicka and Stamina every 0.5 seconds.
To improve Tank's situation, the other morph:
Restoring Focus (Rune Focus morph)- (...) You also gain Minor Vitality and Minor Major Protection, increaing your healing received by 8% and reducing your damage taken by 30%. (I completely forgot about Remembrance. That ability provides Major Protection.)
What do you think?Edited by joaaocaampos on April 18, 2018 9:09PM0 -
joaaocaampos wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno @Bonzodog01 @GallantGuardian @technohic @Minno @Twohothardware @dodgehopper_ESO @Soris @Swen_von_Walhallion
Templar Stamina suffers with sustain, right? I have a great suggestion here!
Channeled Focus (Rune Focus morph)- (...) You also recover Magicka and Stamina every 0.5 seconds.
To improve Tank's situation, the other morph:
Restoring Focus (Rune Focus morph)- (...) You also gain Minor Vitality and Minor Major Protection, increaing your healing received by 8% and reducing your damage taken by 30%. (Why not affect Vitality buff? Because the Templar has a lot of healing. So improving damage reduction would make things more balanced)
What do you think?
well tankplar suffer with stamina sustain is much worse then on stamplar, and i always prefer using channeled focus on my tankplar to for beter magika sustain and when it will regen stamina is no way i leave it
Adraria Argentum Draco - imperial Stamplar
Bevdyen Tus Ntxhuav - Orc Stamplar
Celestun Ira Dei- Imperial Tankplar
Halldis Rautt Höfuð- Nord Tankplar
Misawa Yoshike - Breton Healplar
Lae'ozhael - Dunmer Magplar1 -
Riddari✭✭✭In my opinion it's time for templar to get a complete rework. They wanna claim this whole "house" bs but really we have two maybe three skills tops that qualify as "setting up your house"
They should just take the spear animations and make it a separate weapon skill and give us some better *** in its place.
Templar has been having this identity crisis for way too long and it's time they just do something constructive with the class. They've already gutted so much, might as well do a rework.6 -
Solinur✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!
I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.
What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.
Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)
Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?
It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.
Do other stamina classes have access to empower?
Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).
DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)
2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)
---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.
After reading this and being puzzled at the idea, I tried replacing Sweeps with Solar Barrage. I lost around 4k DPS. This includes a full rotation with plenty of Light Attacks.
Barrage may hit higher than Sweeps per tick, but Sweeps hits 4 times a second, Barrage hits once every 2 seconds. The two are not even comparable DPS wise. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from on this one.
One cast of Sweeps deals less damage than one cast of barrage. So in a rotation (talking PvE here) you exchange one of the Sweeps with it. Barrage is like a dot, of course its useless recasting if before it runs out.@Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author0 -
Saint_Bud✭✭✭✭1.) Rune focus, should not a rune on the ground, it should move with the caster. Stay your ground is dead since 2015 and its all about mobility.
2.) Blayzing shild should have a rework so it scalles with max magicka and sp, give the templar its only defence skill back. Right now its only usefull on a max hp build and with mw changes they took a huge nearf with sustain problems.
3.) Toppling charge should be faster.
4.) Eclipse has its place, but i suggestet to get rid of this skill forever and bring back blinding flashes. Templar need a stun that goes trought block.
5.) I never see that solare barage is used. It should be an instance cast with healdebuff, than this skill will have its place. Darke flare needs a reduced casttime and a faster trevel time, its just to slow.
6.) Templar ultiamtes needs a rework, only healultimate has ist place in a pvp raid.PVP Saint-Bud magicka Templar: AR 49
PVE Lord Victarion mDK : dro'm-Athra-Destroyer pre Morrowind retired for crafting
PVE Ramsay-Bolton magicka NB: Voice of Reason Clockwork City Patch retired
VAA hm/ VHRC hm/ VSO hm/ VMOL hm/ VHOF hm/ VAS hm clear
Stop playing PVE because its boring, content not disigned for melee players and class balance and sustain is ***6 -
Bladefyr✭✭✭Let us not forget, the supposed "fixes" to the damage scaling of Sweeps and Radiant Oppression were either not done or were negligible from last patch. The BL 9% increase will result in and approximate 0.007-0.009% overall damage increase on a boss fight in pve.
Dark Flare use for magplars has been a dps loss in the past and I do not see that the prospective changes will do anything to improve this.
So, essentially, magplar dps will continue to be crap, save for those who go all in on destro staff skill spam builds.
The BoL nerf is nonsensical. The templar healers I raid with, across many different raid groups, do not use BoL unless necessary due to it's magicka cost. So making this high cost ability do less healing is idiotic.
I'm also in total agreement with the other grievances raised for stamplar sustain, or should I say lack thereof.
It almost seems the message from ZoS is "please delete your templars so we can remove them from the game."
Bladefyr - Shadowed Legion4 -
Solinur✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Did you wave it into a stamplar rotation? If so, please share. I tried, but failed to get this working on overland monsters (crocs, hoavors... imps worked tho).
No I didn't, I'm a Magplar
. I don't see how stamplars would have access to empower, tbh. @Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elsterchen wrote: »
Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)
Did you wave it into a stamplar rotation? If so, please share. I tried, but failed to get this working on overland monsters (crocs, hoavors... imps worked tho).
No I didn't, I'm a Magplar. I don't see how stamplars would have access to empower, tbh.
My point exactly. TY. 1 -
Solinur✭✭✭Let us not forget, the supposed "fixes" to the damage scaling of Sweeps and Radiant Oppression were either not done or were negligible from last patch. The BL 9% increase will result in and approximate 0.007-0.009% overall damage increase on a boss fight in pve.
Dark Flare use for magplars has been a dps loss in the past and I do not see that the prospective changes will do anything to improve this.
So, essentially, magplar dps will continue to be crap, save for those who go all in on destro staff skill spam builds.
The BoL nerf is nonsensical. The templar healers I raid with, across many different raid groups, do not use BoL unless necessary due to it's magicka cost. So making this high cost ability do less healing is idiotic.
I'm also in total agreement with the other grievances raised for stamplar sustain, or should I say lack thereof.
It almost seems the message from ZoS is "please delete your templars so we can remove them from the game."
The BL increase will be about 0.5 % to total single target damage.
Due to changes to empower and light attacks (and the 2h weapon set change) I can see a damage increase of 5-10% overall on magplar.
It's hard testing stuff on PTS because the ping from europe causes many issues with the rotation, and with the increase to light attacks manging a clean rotation becomes more important.
Btw, haven't even started looking into the psijic line yet.Elsterchen wrote: »
Sorry for the confusion.Edited by Solinur on April 18, 2018 8:29AM@Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author0 -
GallantGuardian✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno @Bonzodog01 @GallantGuardian @technohic @Minno @Twohothardware @dodgehopper_ESO @Soris @Swen_von_Walhallion
Templar Stamina suffers with sustain, right? I have a great suggestion here!
Channeled Focus (Rune Focus morph)- (...) You also recover Magicka and Stamina every 0.5 seconds.
To improve Tank's situation, the other morph:
Restoring Focus (Rune Focus morph)- (...) You also gain Minor Vitality and Minor Major Protection, increaing your healing received by 8% and reducing your damage taken by 30%. (Why not affect Vitality buff? Because the Templar has a lot of healing. So improving damage reduction would make things more balanced)
What do you think?
Honestly i like the idea i have said a few times ... id like a new ability that is called aedric armor where our armor glows with the light of the aedra that way we dont have to stand within a rune... now id be all for one morph giving back stam and magicka the other morph working like restoring focus works ... that would be great
Then id like repentance to become a stam steal ability that also gives a health based heals over time
As for a cc... I wouldn’t mind if the blazing shield morph turned into what blinding flashes
Thats what i would propose0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I thought zos would choose representatives before pts so we could send feedback to them and they consolidate it for higher effectiveness, since Gina said that they will be chosen before Chapter 2.2
