PTS Update 18 - Unofficial Feedback Thread for Werewolf Balance & QOL

Wolfchild07 · April 2018

Had to do it since ZOS won't start one. :P

Qbiken · April 2018

Before writing my opinions about werewolfs this patch I would recommend you to add something like "Unofficial" or similar in your title. Just to make it clear that the post isn´t made by ZOS

Changes that will/can affect werewolfs (taken from the PTS notes):

•Brutal Pounce (Pounce morph): This morph now deals full damage to the primary target and partial damage to secondary targets, rather than hitting the primary target twice with partial damage. The total damage dealt remains unchanged.

I don´t really have any too many opinions about this morph to be honest. It still feels like a lackluster compared to the other morph that gives increased duration to your WW-form. Personally won´t change the to Brutal Pounce.

•Brutal Pounce (Pounce morph): Fixed an issue where this morph would stun any secondary target, even if they were not already Off Balance.
•Claws of Anguish (Infectious Claws morph): Fixed an issue where the Major Defile debuff applied by this morph was not reducing Health Recovery.

Always nice with some bug-fixes. Highly appreciated. However there´re still a few remaining:
* The Unchained passive still doesn´t work in WW-form
* The additional dogs from "Pack-Leader" morph doesn´t always respawn when killed, unless you go out of WW-form and then transform again
* Certain armor passives not being active in WW-form (need to be tested further to confirm it 100%). Think @Chrlynsch mentioned something about this in the WW theorycrafting thread.

•Rebalanced the Light and Heavy Attack damage scaling ratios so that Light and Heavy Attacks now scale their damage in the same way that normal abilities do – Max Magicka and Max Stamina is now a greater contributing factor towards their damage.
•Rebalanced Light and Heavy Attack damage across weapon types to reinforce the concept that Light Attacks are for dealing damage and Heavy Attacks are for restoring resources. In general, this means:
•Light Attacks with One Hand and Shield, Dual Wield, Bow, Destruction Staff, and Restoration Staff weapons will deal more damage.
•Light Attacks with Two Handed weapons will deal less damage.
•Heavy Attacks with Destruction Staff and Restoration Staff weapons will deal more damage.
•Heavy Attacks with Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Dual Wield, and Bow weapons will deal less damage.

These changes have potential to have big impact on werewolfs damage output. However, testing done by @Avran_Sylt shows at the moment that the damage is unchanged on PTS compared to live. If this is a bug or intended will have to be shown on next PTS update.

•Bound Armaments (Bound Armor morph): This morph converts the ability into a Stamina ability and now increases your damage done with Light Attacks while slotted, instead of Heavy Attacks.

The big question is if this skill follows you into WW-form, now that it´s no longer a toggle ability. Will have to be tested on PTS.

In general it looks really good for werewolfs next patch (so far).

usmcjdking · April 2018

This patch has the potential to spool up WW but at the moment it's still not there, a few highlighted issues.

Duration - WW is simply clunky to use in PVE outside of doing delves. The need to constantly feed is tremendously awful and at times you run the risk of dying because you are in a 5 second channel that cannot be interrupted that may or may not go through depending if the corpse despawned. WW should not have an issue staying in WW during a fight. There is no rhyme or reason why an ultimate as underperforming as werewolf has duration issues. There have been multiple solutions for this. Making bloodrage work on damage done and/or taken would significantly increase the viability of using werewolf, not even counting if it is effective. Having WW be a toggle that consumes 150 ult and costs 3 ult per second has been suggested as well. Both make WW struggle to maintain out of a fight which is where it should struggle to stay in form.

Rework and update - WW is in desperate need of attention to it's skills and overall functionality. WW heavy attacks still have the base 1700 stamina return off heavies which is what it was pre-Morrowind (meaning it was not updated with Morrowind). This has been reported and has been almost a year for what should be a fairly simple numerical fix. All disorients have been removed from the game except Ferocious Roar - because why? PVP werewolf is still locked into Pelinal's to be able to self heal worth anything because for whatever reason the heal scales off magicka.

Cohesion with classes - For each class, werewolf only has access to two class passives for EACH class with the exception of Warden's 3. WW doesn't benefit at all from any weapon passives to boot as well In some cases these class passives are bad i.e. DK (Iron Skin & Elder Dragon). Are we to honestly believe that 18% weapon damage, 30% increase in stam and 10k armor is sufficient enough to cover critical class and weapon passves as well as loss of a backbar with fixed skills?

Group utility - WW group utility is bad in PVE and risky in PVP. Werewolf's only unique ability for the group is feeding frenzy and while it will be fairly strong next patch, it's not impactful enough to justify the existence of WW in any raid. There have been multiple suggestions - such as having feeding frenzy work as a 5 second DEBUFF instead of a 15 second buff would be gigantic in this patch and would make WW a strong contender for a melee spot in any raid.

Synergies - We are in year 4 of ESO and there have been multiple statements about how synergies should be powerful. Glad we have a loadout that actually is not mechanically capable of using synergies because that makes sense in regards to the game's recent direction with special attention being made to synergy usage. But somehow it's cool to have vampires pick up blessed shards of meridia to rejuvenate their powers.

TL; DR - werewolf is still operating back in 1.5 and has seen very little rework since. It has scaled poorly with the game's direction and there has been absolutely no mention in two years about the direction of Werewolf in PVE or PVP.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

Personally, I'd like to see WW gets some sets that when used, allow for a longer uptime of the WW form. As WW is a highly set-based playstyle, this in itself would serve as a method of balancing the damage output.

IE:
Hide of the Werewolf
Adding "This instead adds 5 seconds to the duration of Werewolf form while transformed into a Werewolf"
(Allowing for more WW uptime as a solo player in PvE in areas with sparse enemies)
(Still a bit iffy on this, as it's still essentially the Blood Rage Passive)

Salvation
Changing to "Salvation Reduces cost of Werewolf Transformation and cost of remaining in Werewolf form by 40%"
(This would stack additively with call of the pack, allowing permanent uptime with 3 players as WW all wearing this set)
(Remove WD bonus, could either be 40% or 20% (depends on how much you want to enforce group play))

Qbiken · April 2018

Duration - WW is simply clunky to use in PVE outside of doing delves. The need to constantly feed is tremendously awful and at times you run the risk of dying because you are in a 5 second channel that cannot be interrupted that may or may not go through depending if the corpse despawned. WW should not have an issue staying in WW during a fight. There is no rhyme or reason why an ultimate as underperforming as werewolf has duration issues. There have been multiple solutions for this. Making bloodrage work on damage done and/or taken would significantly increase the viability of using werewolf, not even counting if it is effective. Having WW be a toggle that consumes 150 ult and costs 3 ult per second has been suggested as well. Both make WW struggle to maintain out of a fight which is where it should struggle to stay in form.

As long as there´s a fight going on there´s no issues what so ever to stay in WW-form. Reducing the feeding animation would be welcomed though. I support adding damage done on Bloodrage as well. Making the ultimate a toggle is a horrible suggestion. Learning to stay in WW-form is a L2P issue (not saying it applies to you, since I´ve no idea what kind of experience you´ve with WW´s) and doesn´t take too much time to learn.

Rework and update - WW is in desperate need of attention to it's skills and overall functionality. WW heavy attacks still have the base 1700 stamina return off heavies which is what it was pre-Morrowind (meaning it was not updated with Morrowind). This has been reported and has been almost a year for what should be a fairly simple numerical fix. All disorients have been removed from the game except Ferocious Roar - because why? PVP werewolf is still locked into Pelinal's to be able to self heal worth anything because for whatever reason the heal scales off magicka.

With 2/2 points into Pursuit the stamina return is closer to 6k in WW-form. Without any points in WW-form you´ve around 3k stamina return. Tested this after Dragon Bones was released.

As I see it there´re two reasons it scales of spell-damage and max magicka:
1. Sustain as a werewolf is kinda difficult, dumping your heal to the magicka pool makes resourcemanagement easier.
2. WW get more weapon-damage and max stamina, which would make the heal stupidly powerful.

Cohesion with classes - For each class, werewolf only has access to two class passives for EACH class with the exception of Warden's 3. WW doesn't benefit at all from any weapon passives to boot as well In some cases these class passives are bad i.e. DK (Iron Skin & Elder Dragon). Are we to honestly believe that 18% weapon damage, 30% increase in stam and 10k armor is sufficient enough to cover critical class and weapon passves as well as loss of a backbar with fixed skills?

For PvP it´s enough. For PvE it´s not. Giving WW access to weapon-passives while in WW-form would help them in PvE for sure, but would make them way to OP in PvP.

Group utility - WW group utility is bad in PVE and risky in PVP. Werewolf's only unique ability for the group is feeding frenzy and while it will be fairly strong next patch, it's not impactful enough to justify the existence of WW in any raid. There have been multiple suggestions - such as having feeding frenzy work as a 5 second DEBUFF instead of a 15 second buff would be gigantic in this patch and would make WW a strong contender for a melee spot in any raid.

Got my full support. Rework Ferocious Roar and improving/reworking Feeding Frenzy would be a good start.
WW is risky and difficult to play in PvP (quite steep learning curve) but extremely rewarding once you get the hang of it.

TL:DR

Werewolfs doesn´t need major overhauls. 99% of the things people find weak with werewolfs are "L2P-issues". Werewolfs need changes that enhance the way they synergies with a group, and best way of doing that is to make changes to un-used morphs at the moment.

Thraben · April 2018

1) Call of the pack must be looked at. Group werewolf play in Cyro isn´t possible it you have to fear that people drop out of Werewolf form in the middle of nowhere. Longer duration needed. Werewolf packs are weaker than mixed PvP groups anyway, due to their lack of purge, group heal, and defensive manoevre.

2) Roar and its morphs should remove 2 negative effects. Please don´t force us to use the Wyrd Tree´s Blessing set.

3) Hircine´s Bounty and its morphs should now apply a group healing in a 25m radius when used after an enemy has been killed by the user. (That promotes aggressive teamplay)

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Thraben

1) Don't forget that while WW are "squishy" in a group sense, they more than make up for it with the easy rotation, and high bleed damage on Light Attacks.

IMO, in order for a group to have permanent passive uptime in WW form, they should sacrifice something, a set, for example.

2) Only Ferocious Roar, and remove the off-balance on kill effect. In a WW pack it means someone should likely run the other morph to buff the group.

3) That certainly would make for interesting gameplay, and in PvE Wolf Packs (assuming perma form) this could fill a "healer" role with a WW running Pelinal's.

Thraben · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Thraben

1) Don't forget that while WW are "squishy" in a group sense, they more than make up for it with the easy rotation, and high bleed damage on Light Attacks.

IMO, in order for a group to have permanent passive uptime in WW form, they should sacrifice something, a set, for example.

2) Only Ferocious Roar, and remove the off-balance on kill effect. In a WW pack it means someone should likely run the other morph to buff the group.

3) That certainly would make for interesting gameplay, and in PvE Wolf Packs (assuming perma form) this could fill a "healer" role with a WW running Pelinal's.

Well, I had my own pack running on Sotha Sil EU until they "fixed" the duration bug. I can assure you, my own non- werewolf group is multiple times stronger than a pack. There are 0 balance issues. Wolves melt instantly against enemy AoE, and also have trouble against ranged classes. But it was FUN nontheless because you had to encircle enemies just like real predators instead just facerolling them with Ultis.

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

Lol werewolves are in a terrible position. They're free AP in PvP, and it's a dps loss to transform in PvE. No it's not a "L2P" issue because I don't play as one. They're just so easy for me to kill.

Wuuffyy · April 2018

Also, I wanted to make one easily implementable suggestion to bring the choice idea to all types of world skills. If Zenimax would kindly restore the 15% stam rege while out of werewolf (w/o slotting ult) and add a new 25% increase to poison damage in human form (not as bad due to lack of poison damage in both pve/pvp but still there) and the permanent 20% increase to damage from the Fighters Guild passive copied to human form also (you already gain ult from killing a werewolf with that ult regeneration passive in the same skill line.

Rianai · April 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

As long as there´s a fight going on there´s no issues what so ever to stay in WW-form.

In boss fights there can be issues, because many bosses aren't attacking frequently enough to trigger the blood rage passive on cooldown, or because the attacks will oneshot you and need to be avoided (srsly, players should never be punished for avoiding damage) or - in groups - because the boss isn't attacking you at all, thanks to your tank.

Feeding or running away to use Feral Pounce mid fight results in a huge DPS loss, so that's not really a solution.

Making blood rage work on dmg dealt would fix this issue, while not changing anything for fights that already allow perma form, so why not?

Right now WW is completely useless in group dungeons outside of pure WW groups. Can't tank, can't heal, lacks aoe dmg for trash fights and can't stay in form during boss fights.

Koolio · April 2018

Can we get some kind of Q and A for us werewolves.

It seems like the team at Zos only fixes things with werewolf once a year.

I read hundreds of posts about WW balance QOL update and issues with Absolutely NO Zos response to anything. Bugs persist for years at a time (pack leader) and no unchained. Werewolf are great for immersion and RP.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Can we get any response from any Developer about any Werewolf changes ideas or issues.

I would also like help from any other forum poster about Werewolf issues.

Please put a list of the threads made for WW fixes and issues from the past year. I use my phone so it is very difficult to do that. Thank you.

NyassaV · April 2018

There need to be more counters to WW, they need to take 5-10% less poison damage.

Anything but making them more tanky or damaging as if you don't have dongbreaker slotted a WW is near unstoppable no matter how hard you kite them

Passives for groups for the like sound fine

Qbiken · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

There need to be more counters to WW, they need to take 5-10% less poison damage.

Anything but making them more tanky or damaging as if you don't have dongbreaker slotted a WW is near unstoppable no matter how hard you kite them

Passives for groups for the like sound fine

You can´t be for real when you say there´re not enough counters against a werewolf?

* Literally any snare: Werewolf´s have 0 ways of removing snares (unless using Wyrd Tree set)
* Defiles: Even if you run a Pelinial build that stacks weapon-damage, defiles will absolutely destroy a werewolf. A trollking build on a werewolf will be destroyed as well by defiles.
* Stacking DoT´s/bleeds. Sustained pressure + kiting (which isn´t difficult against a werewolf) is another key to kill them.

Wuuffyy · April 2018

I have a few actual bug reports. Can I get a response from a developer telling me I've been heard. I know I'm the minority but I mean, c'mon.

Thraben · April 2018

A unintended PvP buff to Werewolves is the way the Psijic Skill Mend Wounds works, though. Combine it with Troll King (which you probably wear anyway), and you can build up your Ulti quickly through healing allies. Of course, this is mainly a StamSorc thing, because other classes don´t have the skill space for Mend Wounds.

If things stay like this, I will allow my PvP raid´s StamSorcs to become Werewolves when they think the situation requires it.

NyassaV · April 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

There need to be more counters to WW, they need to take 5-10% less poison damage.

Anything but making them more tanky or damaging as if you don't have dongbreaker slotted a WW is near unstoppable no matter how hard you kite them

Passives for groups for the like sound fine

You can´t be for real when you say there´re not enough counters against a werewolf?

* Literally any snare: Werewolf´s have 0 ways of removing snares (unless using Wyrd Tree set)
* Defiles: Even if you run a Pelinial build that stacks weapon-damage, defiles will absolutely destroy a werewolf. A trollking build on a werewolf will be destroyed as well by defiles.
* Stacking DoT´s/bleeds. Sustained pressure + kiting (which isn´t difficult against a werewolf) is another key to kill them.

As far as I am concerned WW is more or less a counter to any magicka build. Some Magicka builds use Dongbreaker and that is helpful but many do not and Magicka should not be required to slot a stamina ultimate just to deal with the possibility of a WW

There are so many things that WW can do to even a well built and learned magicka player. The sheer damage + hard hitting CC and high resist makes it very formidable but pretty much every counter to a WW belongs to stamina builds.

usmcjdking · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

There need to be more counters to WW, they need to take 5-10% less poison damage.

Anything but making them more tanky or damaging as if you don't have dongbreaker slotted a WW is near unstoppable no matter how hard you kite them

Passives for groups for the like sound fine

You can´t be for real when you say there´re not enough counters against a werewolf?

* Literally any snare: Werewolf´s have 0 ways of removing snares (unless using Wyrd Tree set)
* Defiles: Even if you run a Pelinial build that stacks weapon-damage, defiles will absolutely destroy a werewolf. A trollking build on a werewolf will be destroyed as well by defiles.
* Stacking DoT´s/bleeds. Sustained pressure + kiting (which isn´t difficult against a werewolf) is another key to kill them.

As far as I am concerned WW is more or less a counter to any magicka build. Some Magicka builds use Dongbreaker and that is helpful but many do not and Magicka should not be required to slot a stamina ultimate just to deal with the possibility of a WW

There are so many things that WW can do to even a well built and learned magicka player. The sheer damage + hard hitting CC and high resist makes it very formidable but pretty much every counter to a WW belongs to stamina builds.

To be frank, you've only identified your range of experience with WW in PVP, on the receiving end, as a magicka toon.

That is an incredibly narrow amount of experience with WW.

Osubaker33 · April 2018

"As far as I am concerned WW is more or less a counter to any magica build"

LOL what?

My shield stacking sorc with twilight matriarch can face tank any ww and has.

Shimmering shield is the real counter to "any magica build"

Qbiken · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

There need to be more counters to WW, they need to take 5-10% less poison damage.

Anything but making them more tanky or damaging as if you don't have dongbreaker slotted a WW is near unstoppable no matter how hard you kite them

Passives for groups for the like sound fine

You can´t be for real when you say there´re not enough counters against a werewolf?

* Literally any snare: Werewolf´s have 0 ways of removing snares (unless using Wyrd Tree set)
* Defiles: Even if you run a Pelinial build that stacks weapon-damage, defiles will absolutely destroy a werewolf. A trollking build on a werewolf will be destroyed as well by defiles.
* Stacking DoT´s/bleeds. Sustained pressure + kiting (which isn´t difficult against a werewolf) is another key to kill them.

As far as I am concerned WW is more or less a counter to any magicka build. Some Magicka builds use Dongbreaker and that is helpful but many do not and Magicka should not be required to slot a stamina ultimate just to deal with the possibility of a WW

There are so many things that WW can do to even a well built and learned magicka player. The sheer damage + hard hitting CC and high resist makes it very formidable but pretty much every counter to a WW belongs to stamina builds.

@NyassaV

About using certain skills to counter:
I don't see why it´s such a big deal to slot a certain skill or use a certain item to counter something that is a weakness to you. PvP in this game is to me a large scale "rock, paper, scissor" match.

Whenever I play werewolf, I always carry a bunch of detection pots with me, just to be able to deal with nightblades (both magicka and stamina ones). Using detection pots is a "loss" for me, since I could´ve used an immovable pot or a lingering health pot instead (both of the last named potions are much more beneficial for me than a detection pot in terms of survivability). If you find yourself getting killed or having a hard time with certain classes, you either adjust your build to be able to deal with them better (and perhaps at the price of being weaker to other things) or accept that your build is weak against a few specs, but strong against others. And every well-built magicka build I´ve encountered on PC/EU have won against me on my werewolf. The common factor with those players is that they´re good duellists.

Magicka Classes vs Werewolfs:
I will list them from best to worst magicka class to deal with werewolfs (based on experience in 1v1 situations)

1. Magicka Nightblade vs Werewolf: In my opinion a magicka nightblade should win 9/10 fights against a werewolf. As a magblade you´ve snares, defiles, cloak to reset the fight, strong healing over time to, huge burst potential (if lining up assassin´s will proc with ultimate + fear). Magblade in my opinion is the best counter against a werewolf, much more dangerous than a stamblade (since stamblade can´t cloak as much)

2. MagDK vs Werewolf: It´s common knowledge that magDK is demi-god mode in duels and 1v1. You´ve a stun that goes through block, several DoT aka sustained pressure (which is the key to beat a werewolf), good self-heals. The only time I manage to beat a magDK in 1v1 is when they go too defensive and start blocking too much. But as long as they keep pressure on me, it´s really difficult to kill them.

3. Magicka Sorcerer vs Werewolf: I´ve found werewolf in general to be very good against sorcs. Since you usually have a lot of weapon-damage as a werewolf, it becomes easier to tear down the massive shields sorcs potentially can have. However, a magsorcs that can manage to line up their burst with frag + meteor + cage into an execute will instantly RIP a werewolf that isn´t build to be tanky.

4. Magicka Templar/Magicka Warden vs Werewolf: These two classes will have a much harder time against a werewolf. Good duellists will however be able to deal with a werewolf even on these two classes. As long as these two can find ways to put sustained pressure on the werewolf, they´ll have a good chance to win. But the moment you start playing to defensively, that´s the moment you´ll lose.

Werewolf in my opinion is a "Hard-counter" against very tanky builds, that otherwise wouldn't´t go down. My summarize of werewolf regarding PvP:

* Good in 1v1: High weapon-damage in combination with bleed + defiles will put good pressure on most builds. But they´re far from god-mode or even demi-god mode. Any class can beat a werewolf in a duel.

* Excellent in small-scale/group: This is where werewolfs shines the most (they´re a packanimal after all

). One or two werewolfs in a group can make a huge difference.

* Absolutely horrible in 1vX/outnumbered: This is noticeable, very noticeable. Even when up against players that are way below your skillevel, the difficulty increases by a lot. The inability to remove snares (unless using Wyrd Tree´s Blessing set´), debuffs, dots is what makes it really difficult. Kiting as a werewolf is difficult, but hopefully it will be a little better with snares being tuned down a bit.