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Mmorpg. Difficulty and social interaction

  • Anotherone773
    Anotherone773
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    Ok I will say this to all of you supporting easy content.

    I love the fact that I reached every skillbar solo.
    I love the fact that I crafted/farmed all my top gear solo
    I love the fact that I gathered all my gold mats/poisons/potions/glyph solo.
    Why? I dont like meeting new ppl online.
    Why else? I dont have the time to coordinate with others.

    But come on.... 10 DLCs with easy content? Rly?
    Oh and ye. I dont like grouping with people I dont care for or care to listen to their voice in Discord. But hey.
    I do it for all the trials that I farmed.


    One challenging DLC after 4 years should not be an issue for carebears.

    The DLCs actually get progressively harder. Its only slight, thats called balance. The problem with creating a "hard" overland is most people dont want it, that means its going to get poor sales, that means that recovering the invested money is going to be struggle little making a profit off it.

    If you want vet overland i have the solution for you. Start a new character and do the following:

    1) you have to split all attributes between stam and mag.
    2) You are only allowed to put CP in one skill in each minor tree. So you can only put CP in a total of 9 skills.
    3) You can only use 1 ability bar.
    4) For gear you have to replace gear you are wearing with the next piece you pick up for that slot if it is green or better. So lets say you have a purple divines heavy chest and loot a green sturdy light chest... you have to equip the light chest. You have to do this every time you loot.If your using a 2h sword and pick up a frost staff well get frosty. HM:add white into the gear rotation.
    5)You are not allowed to transmute gear or alter it in any way
    6) You cannot use any item that is player made including food and pots.
    7) You must collect all skyshards, do all quests, complete all achieves, and level all NPC guilds. You must kill every boss at least once and you must achieve rank 49 in alliance.

    When you have done that, then you have won ESO and truly deserve your own DLC that is as hard as you want it to be.
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Same thing happened to Craglorn.
    Nirn mats used to be of value (nirn weapon made a comback last year after changes to penetration were implemented).

    People used to have to fight while gathering.
    People used to do dailies to grab nirm items for research/deconstruct.

    Then what happened? "Too hard for solo"
    Rly?
    Why would you need to solo hard content for good rewards anyway?
    I know you cant 1vX and I know you wont do Trial score group since you dont want to be part of a community.

    So why should every content be easy?
    Just so that people can pretent to explore. Even after 10 DLCs?
    Jump on the horse and sprint straight to the point of interest?

    Ye you will act as if you enjoy killing overland but 10 mins later... horse simulator.
    And how many times will you revisit this easy location that you have forced on the mmorpg players dear carebear?
  • RainfeatherUK
    RainfeatherUK
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    Ok I will say this to all of you supporting easy content...SNIP>

    I think you can see from some of the snark and veiled 'you dont know what you are talking about' style comments, where the problem lies. People have no interest in any point of view but their own. Which is the hallmark of this games anti-social demographic.

    Its easier to tell people to sod off elsewhere and imply they arent welcome (because the things they want aren't) than have a rational discourse. So this in turn leads them to exaggerate or make absolute truth claims in order to try and barge you out.

    I personally think there is enough room for challenge in MMO's (I have a rather large raid/hardmode static in FFXIV for example that was easy enough to get going. I just started talking to people lol. The horror!).

    Much of this game is made up by people who get super defensive if you try and imply anything should involve grouping. I dont think such people are being all that honest about how much of the game caters to loners and facroll enthusiasts however (which is what you've pretty much hinted at anyway).

    Finishing up, lets not pretend the Champion system (and thus how it trivialises difficulty) is the players fault here. Its a totally garbage progression system, that is as I see it - mundane and about as uninteresting as it gets. Veteran ranks sat better with me (despite their lack of popularity) because it is what the content gradient in game was built around.

    When scaling was added the elder game felt disjointed to me. Let alone how many times they couldnt decide if we should start at Khenarthi or Auridon etc (and switched them back and fourth like headless chickens).

    They have had to go back and remedy/chance almost everything thanks to player whining. Some was valid, some wasnt. They cant discern the difference - and thats a problem in all levels of this game.

    I dont believe this game has enough features that encourage interplay. For that reason it is a solo friendly, casual game with very little to offer traditional mmo players. I can come to that having played nigh on all of them (MMO's) to contrast.

    Changing and progression to the new, isn't always 'good' for everyone. So people shouldnt go around implying that it is, or as if any other opinion should be dismissed on the whim of not agreeing with it. Its tiring.
    Edited by RainfeatherUK on April 13, 2018 4:15AM
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Same thing happened to Craglorn.
    Nirn mats used to be of value (nirn weapon made a comback last year after changes to penetration were implemented).

    People used to have to fight while gathering.
    People used to do dailies to grab nirm items for research/deconstruct.

    Then what happened? "Too hard for solo"
    Rly?
    Why would you need to solo hard content for good rewards anyway?
    I know you cant 1vX and I know you wont do Trial score group since you dont want to be part of a community.

    So why should every content be easy?
    Just so that people can pretent to explore. Even after 10 DLCs?
    Jump on the horse and sprint straight to the point of interest?

    Ye you will act as if you enjoy killing overland but 10 mins later... horse simulator.
    And how many times will you revisit this easy location that you have forced on the mmorpg players dear carebear?

    You know "carebears " ARE mmorpg players dont you?

    When then only arguement against hard content can fit in a sentense "easy overland is more profitable" do you think that I will read your paragraphs?
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Ok I will say this to all of you supporting easy content...SNIP>

    I think you can see from some of the snark and veiled 'you dont know what you are talking about' style comments, where the problem lies. People have no interest in any point of view but their own.

    Which is interesting to see you say, since the "other side" has been a steady stream of derision and insults, only interested in it's own point of view. /ponder


    ----

    Meanwhile, the problem with the whole "You want hard? Start a new character with no CP and regular gear!" idea is.... the real difficulty we all had when we started was that we didn't understand the game mechanics & builds. Super l33t players starting a new lv1/CP0 character? They do understand all about good builds/weaving/etc. That can't just be turned off like CP. So, no - a CP0 character for them, isn't going to make overland hard for them. That's not the solution.

    There is no meaning that.
    That is silly.
    No reward for doing that.
    Just as there is no reward for doing easy content
  • RainfeatherUK
    RainfeatherUK
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    Funny. This game takes no work at all to understand. It's combat is so simplistic and spammy, compared to the games of old like Aion (despite being tab target, you still anim cancelled) that I would scarcely know where to begin.

    If people are seriously having trouble with 10 abilities (for the longest time, this was drastically reduced even further by so many builds having a large amount of persistent/toggles) then to me, it beggars belief.

    I grow weary of this style of debate though (that im somehow skilled or experienced, just because I can use a few buttons in sequence). Those are basic motor skills and no effort at all. As they should be for any non-disabled/impaired human being.

    The root issue is that people are too lazy to invest effort or learn. So the result is a low bar, with almost no real value to aspire to. The majority however seem content with that and I have various competitive games to play. I'll leave ya'll to it.
    Edited by RainfeatherUK on April 13, 2018 4:32AM
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    EvilCroc wrote: »
    I am an antisocial person and I'm playing ESO because it is themepark. It is completely different from other MMO's and I like it. Go play other MMO's, leave ESO to us.
    And ZOS said already that ESO is not MMORPG.
    https://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited/the-elder-scrolls-online-MMORPG

    Youll go ahead inrl mr antisocial precious. Make me change game.
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    MMOs that forced people to group up just to complete basic open world content went extinct when the market got popular and these developers had to compete with each other to pull in enough players/revenue to stay in business.

    That type of design was replaced by organized group dungeons and raids. Try those.

    Mmorpgs simply gave in the horrible human nature of wanting everything for nothing.

    Free to access.

    When subscription based games became free,mmorpg gaming quality went out the window.
    That is all.


    "It is profitable to make easy games. Even mmorpgs"
    This is the only valid arguement.

    So here I am asking for ONE ONLY challenging OPEN WORLD DLC out of the 10 or so we have had so far.


    One out of 10 for MMORPG players.

    One
    Out of 10

    You're looking at this backward here, its not on players to put in effort just so they can enjoy the game. The developers are the one who wants to be paid by the players, they are the ones offering a service. It is on the developers to put in the effort to make an enjoyable game for players.

    The changes you listed are made because those content, as they were, are failing to provide a satisfying experience for a lot of people.

    Grouping is nice and all, but what happens when there are not enough people around? or for whatever reason, finding groups take a very long time? Are we supposed to just sit around not doing the content we want to because they have arbitrarily declared we need a group to do this? Of course not, the game has to be flexible enough that we can enjoy it anytime we login, and do stuff within the reasonable amount of time. That is why content with mandatory grouping is limited, to allow players to enjoy the game by themselves without having to be bored by waiting forever, or indeed, simply because they don't feel like playing with other people.

    This also applies to pvp, the developers have decided that those content did not provide enough satisfaction to enough of the playerbase, so they changed it to be more inclusive and accommodate people with differing playstyle preference.

    The changes to IC, Craglorn, etc. They are made to open up those content (materials, and whatever) to everyone (or at least most people). They simply decided that everyone deserves that content and removed systems that display favoritism to certain playstyles.

    Lastly,
    "It is profitable to make easy games. Even mmorpgs"
    This is the only valid arguement.

    This is not an argument, this is just reality. Are we expecting investors to just trash their cash and development studios to go out of business, leaving their employees out of a job? If you want to burn $200 million, feel free to burn your own money.

    Why make a textwall then
  • Sadetius
    Sadetius
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    There have been countless threads, highlighting the issue of overworld difficulty, countless solutions which would not impact the players which want a more easy and relaxed experience. However every time it was met with comments like :

    " Go play dark souls"
    " Just take of your gear"
    " Overland is supposed to be easy"
    "just run dungeons and trials"


    Even though many times people try to explain that gimping yourselves and removing parts of the loot hunt and character progression (which are important factors in an RPG) is not really an option, and dungeons and trials are only a small percentage of the content.
    Research has been posted explaining why some players prefer an easier experience while others a difficult and challenging experience. And how difficulty can result in a better emotional engagement and immersion. However the same comments were being made :

    " Go play dark souls"
    " Just take of your gear"
    " Overland is supposed to be easy"


    So yeah while I personally don't approve of the snarky comments I can see where they are coming from.
    It is kind of weird that it seems like the game is catered to people who played Skyrim exclusively on Novice difficulty, while forgetting the people who played on master and above, and don't forget all the people who used all the plethora of difficulty mods.

    I am going to leave this quote from gamasutra one more time here :
    " However, it's reached the point where "adventuring" in an RPG rarely feels risky. Gaining experience is supposed to carry the risk of harm and failure. Without that risk, gaining power becomes a foregone conclusion.

    It has reached the point where the mere act of spending time playing the game appears to give players the right to have their characters become more powerful. The obstacles that provide experience become simply an arbitrary wall to scale before more power is granted; this, in a nutshell, is the type of play that has brought us grind, where the journey is simple and boring and the destination is something to be raced to."
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    I do think we need more end game consumables besides potions and motifs. Just something to make a need to go do some of these things outside events. This iny mind fixes the reward system.

    We need rewarding complex quests. Craglorn failed because the reawards were bad. The issue isn't too just no sense of accomplishment. Hmm...how quests to raise something, building ...guild halls.

    Imperial city is dead most of the time. It would be more rewarding if we could queue inside of it. Just lock it if gates are closed. It takes almost 30 mins to get there and if I logout then back at start.

    So it's my feelings that we need to make people more dependent on others. Not much but some influx.
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
    Former Class Representative, & Former Community Ambassador
    Grand Prize Winner to Deardic Dress up Contest
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    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
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  • Grendel_at_ESO
    Grendel_at_ESO
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    Having no unique classes that require other classes to get anything done kills grouping. Firor knows how to make a game like that but chose not to.
  • gnarlyvandal
    gnarlyvandal
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    100% agreed but craglorn almost failed bc no one wanted to group to finish quest I don't understand it but one of my favorite parts of older MMOs was having to group to even kill solo mobs. Very anti social game unless ur talking smack in zone chat about dps.

    LOOK AT the guild system worst I have seen with 5 guild(and people want more) no one is loyal no one plays with each other bc they can just leave any guild and join another good luck getting new people to join chat when they have 5 guilds to flip through.

    I’m in 3 trading guilds and 2 Social / trial running guilds. The two latter are very sociable and have constant discord chat running as well as running daily events that cater to all levels of players, dung or trial runs, RP, farming, grinding, training events to prepare for HM trials...they’re friendly and helpful, not sure what you’re talking about with no pro-social atmosphere

    The game is what you make of it.

    Group bonuses to exp as well as ring of mara ( if you have it ) encourage duo play as you’ll advance quicker.

    I’ve played mmo’s for 16+ years and have ALWAYS done my very best to solo group content. Just to test myself mind you :’) but this doesn’t mean the game isn’t an mmo....

    I don’t think I’ve gone a single day in this game within the last month without grouping...

    And tbh, I don’t think the hallmarks of an mmo should be really bad quests and being forced to group. The fact this game is great as a single player game should be one of the reasons it’s praised.

    Having the option to group or not is fantastic as you’re not pigeon holed into a certain build or role.
  • Goshua
    Goshua
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    Goshua wrote: »
    when were vet mats only available via IC?

    Rubedo was only available with TV stones in IC/Sewers.
    Glorious fights.

    The People would sell them in guild traders. PvPrs had a great reason to fight.
    PvErs could buy them from guild traders.

    Then some people started comaining that they were forced to PvP to get those mats, which was false.

    Next thing you know IC was empty

    weird, I did just fine for leather an never set foot in the place. must have been a very temporary thing?
  • knaveofengland
    knaveofengland
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    you could say the game has a added tag coop as well , would say overland content is a tad easy , mind you think it has to be that way since most wont join up to do a quest .

    players just want to do thier thing , so reason easy mode on overland content , dont think this change much ,if they did make it a lot harder then players would have a choice words to say . so if overland content was a lot harder then players would probally want henchies like in gw1.

    game was designed for most content to be solo , they made the game like the rest of the series and look 10 million accounts , thats not to be taken lightly ,the game i would say is a classic and has some grey areas that be ironed out over some years .

  • Odnoc
    Odnoc
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    The RPG aspect, and even the MMO aspect has been ruined by elitest who only want to run with Meta builds. Thank them. Meta ruins rpg immersion.
  • Istoppucks
    Istoppucks
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    This tired topic has been repeated on every mmo released the last 10 years. The OP sounds like a bitter angry old "vet". he is just upset games like ESO are successful and his old crappy hardcore sandbox games failed. There is a reason nobody has tried to recreate games like SWG and its because they were not very good games

    Have no fear buddy there are a few games coming out you may enjoy. May I recommend you leave ESO well the forums since you obviously don't play the game and go pay to post in Pantheon. That game sound right up your Alley.
  • mikemacon
    mikemacon
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    ::yawns::

    This argument again.

    There are hardcore MMOs, and there are casual-friendly MMOs.

    ESO is a casual-friendly MMO.

    Want a hardcore MMO? Play one.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    Hope they consider making Veteran Instances of the Overworld (toggled by dungeon finder difficulty setting). Jack up mob HP and Damage, if they really want to, add more mechanics to World Bosses.
    Add some unique moster/weapon/augment BoP sets to these Veteran Overworld World Bosses, and add some more BoE zone dropped sets unique to Veteran Instances.
    But that's unlikely to happen.
    That would actually be an fun idea and not to hard to do, supported
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • devan0216
    devan0216
    Filthy solo casual here...Really, I'm all for some extra-difficult/group only/impossible to solo areas, but coupled with an update to the guild store model. The bulk of my in-game time is spent with crafting or gathering- I'd be happy to give up the easy access to some mats IF I could easily find them at a trader.

    Everyone should be able to play the game the way they want and I'm happy to subsidize content for multiple gameplay styles with my sub.
  • Tabbycat
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    A healthy game should have a mix of solo and group content, not force you to group all the time.

    They tried with Craglorn to force people to group for questing and it was a huge fail. They won't make the same mistake twice.

    But you will get some more optional group content with summerset.
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
    0.016%
  • Sylosi
    Sylosi
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    It's purely one of those things now where people say ''mmo just means online at the same time, not that you have to ever group!'

    Grouping in itself doesn't make for an MMO, I mean if a player always groups, but does so with the same 3 people he knows in real life, that isn't "massively multiplayer", you may as well be playing a co-op game.

    Which is a general problem with themepark MMORPGs and highlights a level of hypocrisy, players say some guy that wants to solo everything isn't 'massively multiplayer', but then neither are four man instanced dungeons, 4 man instanced PvP, etc, really the only aspects of most themepark MMOs that are truly 'massively multiplayer' are big open world zone events in PvE, aspects of the economy, map/world chat interaction and if the game has it mass scale PvP, none of which are based on 4/5/6 man groups playing their own little co-op game in their own little instances locked off from the 'massively multiplayer world'.
    Edited by Sylosi on April 13, 2018 12:24PM
  • Anotherone773
    Anotherone773
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    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    MMOs that forced people to group up just to complete basic open world content went extinct when the market got popular and these developers had to compete with each other to pull in enough players/revenue to stay in business.

    That type of design was replaced by organized group dungeons and raids. Try those.

    Mmorpgs simply gave in the horrible human nature of wanting everything for nothing.

    Free to access.

    When subscription based games became free,mmorpg gaming quality went out the window.
    That is all.


    "It is profitable to make easy games. Even mmorpgs"
    This is the only valid arguement.

    So here I am asking for ONE ONLY challenging OPEN WORLD DLC out of the 10 or so we have had so far.


    One out of 10 for MMORPG players.

    One
    Out of 10

    You’re basically asking for a zone sized dungeon. Here’s the thing: that’s not “challenging” content. The hardest part is spamming the zone-chat with LFG messages (boring). But once you get the proper sized group, the content becomes “easy” again.

    Of course, if your group is too big, it’s just a faceroll. Requiring more people does not mean “more challenging”, especially in open-world content. It’s harder to regulate group sizes.

    That’s why I recommend dungeons and trials. The content regulates the group sizes and is tuned in difficulty for those group sizes.

    Exactly, and the gold coast is a prime example. The WBs there can be harder if just a few players are doing them or super easy like it is now during the event.We killed the boss in less than 10 seconds. And group size is hard to govern in overland even if you limit the actual group size, this system is set up so that multiple groups could do the same boss.

    Overland content was never designed to be hard because you cant make it difficult for say solo but allow grouping and not being able to group except for a few things in a MMO isnt really a good thing.

    Overland being so easy here is a by product of the system we have. Mobs do not ever change level or scale. So mobs have to be set at a reasonable level for they are designed for. I dont want to engage in a 30 second fight with an "elite" mob just so i can grab this rubedite, especially when somebody can come by and ninja the node im fighting for while im doing it. And there is a lot of that ninja stealing in this game.

    A proper level system would alleviate some of this problem. You want hard content do that level 100-110 zone at level 90, you want it to be easy, wait until level 105. The problem with that system is zones become one offs. Good bye DLCs. every expansion will be required to get to a high enough level to do the expansion after it.

    The system has its good points and its bad points. But i will take easier overland with a map that is useful at any level over more challenging overland that once i level past it, the zone is kind of useless and boring to me.

    MMOs are built around an average player ability. People on the extremes of those either need to just suck it up and get better or stop being such overachievers. Its one reason i dont "meta". I dont want to figure out how to make the game as easy as possible,so i can burn through it and get to the end and be like " ok need harder content thats to easy" Instead i just play through experimenting changing armor sets and skills i use, trying new things.

    I cant help people analyze a game to death to find the best possible combination or playstyle, play the game through once and be like ok need something harder. Here is an idea....STOP TRYING SO HARD TO WIN! Then the game wont be so easy for you.
    Edited by Anotherone773 on April 13, 2018 12:45PM
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