Mmorpg. Difficulty and social interaction

GeorgeBlack

Let's see the progress of the game.
Craglorn had group activities in a nice open world environment in which only you could get nirn items/mats. Obsolete. Turned into yet another themepark for antisocial/immersed ppl.

IC. The only place you could gather top gear materials while playing against enemies. Dont want to gather? Go sell gold mats and buy base mats instead.
What happened to IC? V160 mats became available to every area.
IC turn into yet another themepark.
However empty, people still complain about being killed by players in a PvP zone. Mind you IC is empty. Completely empty.

Orsinium. Nice WB that require groups (no real rewards tho)
The overland however is still an easy themepark.
What else... the top weapons at the time could be farmed solo. In an mmorpg....
Thieves Guild. Themepark.
Dark Brotherhood. Themepark.
Morrowind. Themepark.
Clockwork. Finally a nice addition with a Trial that offers serious rewards. Still a themepark tho.

Why is it so easy in an mmorpg to faceroll every map in the game, solo?
Why mmorpg players are forced to such a carebear environment for antisocial people that should really be playing a single player game?

There is no way I can pursuade my guild to join again in this game.
They tell me: PvE is so easy and isolated from the community.
PvP is sooooo optional that it doesn't provide a sense of accomplishment.

So Zos.
Since you have provided a full map (plus 2 dimentions outside of the map [Clockwork/Soul Harbor]) for all those players that want to have a good time exploring, can you provide a small slice of land with challenging open world content for MMORPG players?

Thank you

PS. PVP Also some guild vs guild features.
AvAvA offer nothing to people that want to form a 50-100 head clan and compete against others.
AvAvA is all about forming a group of 24 and farming AP. Switching sides and the rest.
Groups of 24(Raids.. not guilds...) are too small to be considered a community. A community with common goals and loyalty to each other

PS2. PvE. I am getting really bored jumping from instance to instance to complete dungeons from Mournhold. It feels like Crash Bandecot farming trophies.
I want challenging open world PvE with serious rewards.

PS3. Dueling took sooooo long to happen.

Let players open PvP toggle and fight others that have chosen to open PvP tag.
Those that dont open PvP toggle cannot be attacked or attack.



Add value to your game.
It is an mmorpg. Not a single player

brandonv516

Coming Soon to an MMO near you:

Summerset the Themepark.

VilniusNastavnik

Go fishing. I get with my mates.. we will cast our rods and do some fishing talking bout builds then dive into some of the harder content. Hell we even hold a fight club sorta contest called bloodening where we bet against each other on the outcome of a 1vboss/event fight. Pve is easy. Make your own fun.

GeorgeBlack

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Go fishing. I get with my mates.. we will cast our rods and do some fishing talking bout builds then dive into some of the harder content. Hell we even hold a fight club sorta contest called bloodening where we bet against each other on the outcome of a 1vboss/event fight. Pve is easy. Make your own fun.

I go fishing inrl. I cant fight monsters or enemy armies with swords now can I?

RainfeatherUK

Because this game didn't attract MMORPG players in the end. Thats why many of those typical mmo staples are neglected here now and the focus is on what appeals to the players they managed to keep - solo/single player TES fans.

You can see that attitude enough in threads where, despite the virtual entirety of the game being available for solo - people still complain that it isnt ALL solo. They feel empowered to unload their selfishness here, because to them (and overtime, the devs now apparently too) they no longer see this as any form of true MMO.

It's purely one of those things now where people say ''mmo just means online at the same time, not that you have to ever group!'

Now there's no point debating the above. Because it just goes around in circles. But I am from your 'camp/school' of thought with it. I think its ludicrous. To many long term gamers, ESO is neither challenging nor rewarding (having people say, 'well play naked' is not a solution i take seriously either).

Unless you run solo and throw progression out the window, there is nothing to do in a matter of weeks. Bar perhaps an odd grindable. Other MMO's on the market deliver far more group content and polished features (which is why I play them for those) and presumably why those heavily social players avoid ESO (for the better part, after all I am one).

It comes down to whether you can find justification for playing the game for what it is. Which is, due to its tech, on a bit of a weird ground in comparison to its competitors. There are obviously good elements to ESO but I wouldn't say its an mmo as I grew up understanding them.

Those, as you imply, were all about friendship and grouping. For back then the games scarcely had quests and it was the only reason to play them, over single player titles that offered much more.

TheDarkShadow

Because the majority of playerbase "speak" through statistic numbers (how many people play that content, how much money those people spend in game, which content/fluff they spend money on...), and ZoS "listen". This is a business. If you are the minority you just have to accept it. Unless the minority are rich enough to spend more money than the majority casual players, then your voice will be listened.

FloppyTouch

100% agreed but craglorn almost failed bc no one wanted to group to finish quest I don't understand it but one of my favorite parts of older MMOs was having to group to even kill solo mobs. Very anti social game unless ur talking smack in zone chat about dps.

LOOK AT the guild system worst I have seen with 5 guild(and people want more) no one is loyal no one plays with each other bc they can just leave any guild and join another good luck getting new people to join chat when they have 5 guilds to flip through.

RainfeatherUK

In the end, it IS a matter of game design. As with games like FFXIV/WoW/Tera/Aion/gw2 et al, the game can either funnel people towards working together; or not.

If it doesn't, then human beings generally will default towards not bothering. Its less effort after all to just not talk, or have to arrange play time around others.

Gaming certainly has become more mainstream, players feel as if they have less time free to get involved and as such; reviews around the internet also suggest the average age of gamer/mmo player has increased. Which compounds all these issues.

I find it sad because ESO is missing that social component (or rather one that encourages it enough, that it makes it smooth flowing and less unnatural) and so it loses so much that past mmo's had.

But that is from the perspective of a long term mmo player, socialite/person who found value in ALL elements of the community.

This is one thing that I feel games like FFXIV have nailed. A wider integrated MMO community where forums, media, various servers, events, staff and otherwise all interlink - because of said socialising potential - to become more than just a faceroll single player experience.

As one comment here says though; ZoS has to go where the money is and unfortunately in this game, that is not towards traditional mmo gamers. :Sadface:

GeorgeBlack

Craglorn failed because there was no reward in the map.
IC failed because the reward (v160 mats) became available to everybody.

IC was glorious before that happened.
Competitive players would gather the mats and sell/use them.
Non competative players would use trading guilds to buy them.
Now we only have themeparks

Honeslty 10 months ago I told my friends lets go clear this map.
"Why? What can we gain from this map"
I had no answer to that.
Somehow they did me the favour.
"Why is it so easy? We though you said it was hard and had group mechanics preventing solo facerolling"
Yeah thats how it was when I did it... oh no... one Tamriel happened...

Needless to say they havent logged in in 9 months. None of them.

RainfeatherUK

Single players are, for want of a better way of putting it, allergic to competitive ones. Its like chalk and cheese.

In past MMO's where devs put the proverbial 'foot down', the two camps managed to find compromise and avoid each other where they couldn't.

Devs these days however are too caught up in losing grasp of one or another demographic. Especially in ESO where they had to rescind the sub model (something I am still convinced crippled content quality and development/ because of ESO's modern features).

To me it seems like in trying to please everyone, they have instead alienated all the camps in one way or another. Either with limited content, no content at all for years, or too much of a focus on cosmetics and not on core gameplay.

It really highlights the need to have a strong sense of who your audience is - before you launch your game. Trying to appeal to everyone (when the contrast between types is so vast) seems to have failed them fairly badly.

Anotherone773

Personally i like that i can choose to socialize or not. If i want nonstop socialization i will go out. If i want controlled doses of socialization where i can make you go away when you annoy me, i play a mmo. I like that about mmos.... i can socialize and dont have to pretend that you arent getting under my skin because we are in the same group of people, i can just make you go away.

GeorgeBlack

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Personally i like that i can choose to socialize or not. If i want nonstop socialization i will go out. If i want controlled doses of socialization where i can make you go away when you annoy me, i play a mmo. I like that about mmos.... i can socialize and dont have to pretend that you arent getting under my skin because we are in the same group of people, i can just make you go away.

I dont think you understand what it is that is said on this topic.
Or maybe you want to say "I like facerolling stuff". But you dont.

Anotherone773

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Single players are, for want of a better way of putting it, allergic to competitive ones. Its like chalk and cheese.

Your analogy is correct because you literally compared two different things and made an either/or comparison. However, there is much wider range than either/or. I like both solo and group stuff and i like to choose. I dont want to be forced into doing one or the other.

Wing

go build a really hard MMO with constant updates (at least 3 big ones a year plus expansion) that is nigh impossible to solo, has a very high skill floor, and requires teamwork (even if you just check it out by yourself) in every aspect of it and then lock everything of value behind EVEN HARDER content in niche sections of the game . . .

. . . and you tell us how popular it is, how financially viable it is, and how long your able to keep it going.

ill wait. . .

GeorgeBlack

Wing wrote: »

go build a really hard MMO with constant updates (at least 3 big ones a year plus expansion) that is nigh impossible to solo, has a very high skill floor, and requires teamwork (even if you just check it out by yourself) in every aspect of it and then lock everything of value behind EVEN HARDER content in niche sections of the game . . .

. . . and you tell us how popular it is, how financially viable it is, and how long your able to keep it going.

ill wait. . .

I will not do that.
I will build a time machine and take you 8 years back.

srfrogg23

MMOs that forced people to group up just to complete basic open world content went extinct when the market got popular and these developers had to compete with each other to pull in enough players/revenue to stay in business.

That type of design was replaced by organized group dungeons and raids. Try those.

GeorgeBlack

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MMOs that forced people to group up just to complete basic open world content went extinct when the market got popular and these developers had to compete with each other to pull in enough players/revenue to stay in business.

That type of design was replaced by organized group dungeons and raids. Try those.

Mmorpgs simply gave in the horrible human nature of wanting everything for nothing.

Free to access.

When subscription based games became free,mmorpg gaming quality went out the window.
That is all.


"It is profitable to make easy games. Even mmorpgs"
This is the only valid arguement.

So here I am asking for ONE ONLY challenging OPEN WORLD DLC out of the 10 or so we have had so far.


One out of 10 for MMORPG players.

One
Out of 10

Avran_Sylt

Hope they consider making Veteran Instances of the Overworld (toggled by dungeon finder difficulty setting). Jack up mob HP and Damage, if they really want to, add more mechanics to World Bosses.
Add some unique moster/weapon/augment BoP sets to these Veteran Overworld World Bosses, and add some more BoE zone dropped sets unique to Veteran Instances.
But that's unlikely to happen.

zyk

The answer is that a paradigm shift has occurred in electronic gaming. It's now as mainstream as TV, film and music. That means the audience has changed. For Zenimax, Skyrim changed everything.

Publishers are generally focused on profit, so that means giving the most general segment of that audience what it wants.

Basically, mainstream gaming is being co-opted.

I like to compare it to how the educational network The Learning Channel morphed into the reality show network TLC as cable TV became mainstream.

This game is a lost cause IMO. PVE, at least. This is the audience that made Disney what it is. They *want* Theme parks. They like them.

Wing

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

go build a really hard MMO with constant updates (at least 3 big ones a year plus expansion) that is nigh impossible to solo, has a very high skill floor, and requires teamwork (even if you just check it out by yourself) in every aspect of it and then lock everything of value behind EVEN HARDER content in niche sections of the game . . .

. . . and you tell us how popular it is, how financially viable it is, and how long your able to keep it going.

ill wait. . .

I will not do that.
I will build a time machine and take you 8 years back.

okay stop right there

just because WoW popularized "raids" in MMO's does not mean it was a good thing, and wow was not huge because of them, they were just a "thing" in the game, then every company tried to copy them and was like "gee I guess we should have these raid things eh?"

the industry as a whole is moving away from those kinds of features for a reason (plus if you put out content in todays age that you had to purchase, increased the level cap, and was the sole location of the best gear? the sheer amount of PAY TO WIN and tears would be through the roof)

"raids" have and will always be niche, and do not an mmo make.

the amount of time, effort, constant upkeep, balance, some form of reward, etc required to make "raids" worth it even to the niche community that do find interest is just not worth it.

same with ESO's dungeons

if you took every dungeon fight (not just the bosses but the mini bosses and there mechanics) and scattered them around the zones as more tougher world bosses. FAR more people would interact with them then what we have now.

GeorgeBlack

Wing wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

go build a really hard MMO with constant updates (at least 3 big ones a year plus expansion) that is nigh impossible to solo, has a very high skill floor, and requires teamwork (even if you just check it out by yourself) in every aspect of it and then lock everything of value behind EVEN HARDER content in niche sections of the game . . .

. . . and you tell us how popular it is, how financially viable it is, and how long your able to keep it going.

ill wait. . .

I will not do that.
I will build a time machine and take you 8 years back.

okay stop right there

just because WoW popularized "raids" in MMO's does not mean it was a good thing

the industry as a whole is moving away from those kinds of features for a reason (plus if you put out content in todays age that you had to purchase, increased the level cap, and was the sole location of the best gear? the sheer amount of PAY TO WIN and tears would be through the roof)

"raids" have and will always be niche, and do not an mmo make.

the amount of time, effort, constant upkeep, balance, some form of reward, etc required to make "raids" worth it even to the niche community that do find interest is just not worth it.

same with ESO's dungeons

if you took every dungeon fight (not just the bosses but the mini bosses and there mechanics) and scattered them around the zones as more tougher world bosses. FAR more people would interact with them then what we have now.

I will stop you right there.
I never played wow or a copy of it.

I am asking for one challenging open world dlc out of the 10 you have to face roll.

FloppyTouch

They should just remove the mobs in overland questing they are just in the way. Let people just move from quest marker to quest marker talking there was to solving the world's issue. It's pretty much already like that, you can use WoE pull 20 mobs and stand holding block and wait for everything to die its really sad.

And before someone say remove ur cp and try it I lvled a new character on EU with no cp used drop sets and was still able to do this on a mdk.

Linaleah

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

go build a really hard MMO with constant updates (at least 3 big ones a year plus expansion) that is nigh impossible to solo, has a very high skill floor, and requires teamwork (even if you just check it out by yourself) in every aspect of it and then lock everything of value behind EVEN HARDER content in niche sections of the game . . .

. . . and you tell us how popular it is, how financially viable it is, and how long your able to keep it going.

ill wait. . .

I will not do that.
I will build a time machine and take you 8 years back.

the irony here is... 8 years ago group optional was already popular. as was 10 years ago.

the irony here is the reason why WoW became as big as it has, and the reason why MMO's are as popular now instead of being incredibly niche games? is BECAUSE it was the first genuinely solo casual friendly mmo.

people like to socialize becasue its a choice, not because there is no other way to play

Anotherone773

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Personally i like that i can choose to socialize or not. If i want nonstop socialization i will go out. If i want controlled doses of socialization where i can make you go away when you annoy me, i play a mmo. I like that about mmos.... i can socialize and dont have to pretend that you arent getting under my skin because we are in the same group of people, i can just make you go away.

I dont think you understand what it is that is said on this topic.
Or maybe you want to say "I like facerolling stuff". But you dont.

Sure i do, but overland has always been designed for people to solo. Is it easier here? At higher CP when you know what your doing, yeah. i do public dungeons which is group content, daily for mages guild solo and dont even think about the fact that is actually designed for group because ive never actually been in a group when ive done one i dont think.

But its suppose to be easier. Not everyone plays on your level, or the person that solo's trial bosses, or people that gets stormproof, or people that solo normal dungeons. Sure some people can do that. But its hardly normal. Most dont put that much effort into playing. They play for fun, not to win. So their skill level may never surpass average and thats ok because to have an average you have to people who are below average. And those people might find overland to be the perfect challenge level for them to solo.

If they want to group, they can and their are things they can do as a group. Basically, i dont want to be forced to group because people want stuff to be harder so its a challenge for their way above average level of play. I like options and i want plenty of content to solo with options to group. And i do group every single day to do various tasks and i even talk in those groups and people talk back.


All of that said, i think the best option and one that will never be implemented is to mirror overland and make it vet or HM or whatever you want to call it. Then have portals in a few places that you can go through and be sucked onto a vet server where everything is vet. Normal dungeons are vet and vet dungeons are insane mode.

If you get tired of playing in vet mode you can bounce back across the portal to normal Tamriel. That provides everything vets are looking for and everything those not looking to become pros are looking for. Also it is the simplest solution. The drawback is that you split the population, which on PC NA i feel would be fine as its quite a healthy population. But i dont know about the other servers.

Joshuagm1991

I wouldn't mind some dark souls difficulty. Not good for business though.

Also in harder difficulty environments the social interaction is probably 75% toxic. It's all business and no play up in this.

Wing

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I will stop you right there.
I never played wow or a copy of it.

I am asking for one challenging open world dlc out of the 10 you have to face roll.

I can understand that kind of want, and would LOVE a monster hunter style of world bosses included in the game.

-make a cave
-not a dungeon, but an actual cave, an environment if you will have it be instanced as soon as you enter
-put a difficult boss fight in it that you can indeed solo if you know the mechanics of the monster and have your skills down, make soloing it take some time, idk around 10-30 minutes. you can bring more people if you want (ala monster hunter) but you can try and test yourself solo.
-include SEVERAL of these
-have them drop monster sets, transmutation stones, gold mats, tri stat runes, etc. in there loot pool to remain relevant.


I would LOVE to test myself and my characters in these kinds of fights, VMSA? nope, Vdungeons? no thanks, Vtrials? no thank you.

1v1 tough boss fights that I don't have to grind through a dungeon to get to? yes please.

MalakithAlamahdi

I still rememeber the days where soloing a Dark Anchor was something to be pround of. Now I can do it on a level 3 toon. Wish the majority of the game was a bit more challenging. The only challening things now are some dungeons and trails.

Wing

also IC would be relevant if they would simply split it from the campaigns and give it its own queue, but ZOS is refusing.

GeorgeBlack

Ok I will say this to all of you supporting easy content.

I love the fact that I reached every skillbar solo.
I love the fact that I crafted/farmed all my top gear solo
I love the fact that I gathered all my gold mats/poisons/potions/glyph solo.
Why? I dont like meeting new ppl online.
Why else? I dont have the time to coordinate with others.

But come on.... 10 DLCs with easy content? Rly?
Oh and ye. I dont like grouping with people I dont care for or care to listen to their voice in Discord. But hey.
I do it for all the trials that I farmed.


One challenging DLC after 4 years should not be an issue for carebears.

Goshua

when were vet mats only available via IC?

GeorgeBlack

Goshua wrote: »

when were vet mats only available via IC?

Rubedo was only available with TV stones in IC/Sewers.
Glorious fights.

The People would sell them in guild traders. PvPrs had a great reason to fight.
PvErs could buy them from guild traders.

Then some people started comaining that they were forced to PvP to get those mats, which was false.

Next thing you know IC was empty