Can we look at the Nord's passives?

Wolfchild07 · April 2018

Isn't the 6% damage reduction actually only 3% after all the calculations? I know some people have done the maths before. Is this still true, or has it been fixed?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Isn't the 6% damage reduction actually only 3% after all the calculations? I know some people have done the maths before. Is this still true, or has it been fixed?

read this post, it really explains everything well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ijttu/multiplicative_damage_reduction_diminishing/

specifically this part-

A boss hits you with an attack that deals 10000 damage unmitigated. You're drunk and are trying to fight him naked so you don't have any armor to protect yourself from the damage or weapons or a shield to block with. However, since you are a Nord (explains being drunk), your rugged passive reduces the damage by 6% to 9400.

10000 * .94 = 9400

You go up against the boss a second time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. You are wearing your armor this time, which reduces the damage by 50% to 5000. You're still hungover which caused you to forget your weapon and shield, so you have nothing to block with. Since you are a Nord, the damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 4700.

10000 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .47 = 4700

You go up against the boss a third time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. Your armor reduces the damage by 50% to 5000, and you remembered your weapon and shield so you are able to block another 50% of the damage, reducing it to 2500 (remember how I said tanks would become invulnerable if damage reduction was applied additively? 50% from armor and 50% from blocking is all it would take if these were applied additively). Since you are a Nord, this damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 2350.

10000 * .5 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .235 = 2350

In all three cases, the Nord's passive reduced your damage received by exactly 6% of what you would have otherwise received without it. In all three cases it provided exactly the full amount of damage reduction that it was supposed to. This is important, and if this seems insignificant to you, then it's time I moved on to the concept of effective hit points, because that's the big picture I've been working towards.

Nelson_Rebel · April 2018

Vostorn wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Make it equal to redgaurd and have it on a cooldown for 4 seconds. Anything less and it would be to powerful for infinite sustain just from taking damage

I'm rather thinking the opposite. Nerf it, make it so that only hits (skill/LA/HA but not dots), but don't make it have a cooldown :
It will be more useful the more ennemies you have on your face, ideal for tanking but not really affecting pvp or damage dealers.

Having no cooldown from taking damage from Hits from skills would be the same thing as just taking damage, since everything is a skill attack.

If you give it no cooldown it would HAVE to be limited to light and heavy attacks ONLY. No skill attacks should trigger it to balance having zero cooldown

Otherwise keep a cooldown.

Joy_Division · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Isn't the 6% damage reduction actually only 3% after all the calculations? I know some people have done the maths before. Is this still true, or has it been fixed?

read this post, it really explains everything well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ijttu/multiplicative_damage_reduction_diminishing/

specifically this part-

A boss hits you with an attack that deals 10000 damage unmitigated. You're drunk and are trying to fight him naked so you don't have any armor to protect yourself from the damage or weapons or a shield to block with. However, since you are a Nord (explains being drunk), your rugged passive reduces the damage by 6% to 9400.

10000 * .94 = 9400

You go up against the boss a second time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. You are wearing your armor this time, which reduces the damage by 50% to 5000. You're still hungover which caused you to forget your weapon and shield, so you have nothing to block with. Since you are a Nord, the damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 4700.

10000 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .47 = 4700

You go up against the boss a third time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. Your armor reduces the damage by 50% to 5000, and you remembered your weapon and shield so you are able to block another 50% of the damage, reducing it to 2500 (remember how I said tanks would become invulnerable if damage reduction was applied additively? 50% from armor and 50% from blocking is all it would take if these were applied additively). Since you are a Nord, this damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 2350.

10000 * .5 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .235 = 2350

In all three cases, the Nord's passive reduced your damage received by exactly 6% of what you would have otherwise received without it. In all three cases it provided exactly the full amount of damage reduction that it was supposed to. This is important, and if this seems insignificant to you, then it's time I moved on to the concept of effective hit points, because that's the big picture I've been working towards.

It does seem insignificant to me. We've gone from reducing 600 of the initial 10,000 damage (itself not really that great; Nord's passive doesn't stop one shots, which ESO has so many) to reducing 150, which is imperceptible.

*Reads concept of effective hit points*

*Wonders Why the Imperial is just standing there like a target dummy and not using its own Red Diamond passive*

*Considers author's example, the last one listed (10000 * .5 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .235 = 23500)

*Considers author's example of Nord and Imperial both having 30,000 health and claims Nord has 7659 more "effective health"

After 1 attack: Nord's health = 27,650; Imperial's Health = 27,500
After 2: Nord = 25,300; Imperial = 25,000
3: Nord = 22950; Imperial = 22500
4: Nord = 20600; Imperial = 20000
5: Nord = 18250, Imperial = 17500
6: Nord = 15900; Imperial = 15000
7: Nord = 13550; Imperial = 12500
8: Nord = 11200; Imperial = 10000
9: Nord = 8850; Imperial = 7500
10: Nord = 6500; Imperial = 5000
11: Nord = 4150; Imperial = 2500
12: Nord = 1800; Imperial= 0 (dead)
13: Nord = dead

Not seeing it. I'm seeing a poor racial passive that makes zero effect on the fight until the 12th hit occurs. And that's only because we happened to choose 30,000 health. If we say choose 30,500 health, this is what happens after the 10th hit:

11: Nord = 4650; Imperial = 3000
12: Nord = 2300; Imperial = 500
13: Nord = dead; Imperial = dead

Now we're literally useless as opposed to figuratively. And none of this, again, consider's the Imperial's Red diamond Passive or higher max health bonus. So, in both cases the Imperial would still be alive while the Nord is dead.

And what if we throw Battle Spirit in there, another 50% multiplicative damage multiplier, which further diminishes how much less damage the Nord is taking compared to the Imperial?

TL;DR If you want to be a good tank in ESO, you do not pick the "tank" race in a Nord. Instead you pick the good "healing" race in an Argonian. Or just take the Imperial.

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Daus Meaning the aforementioned list isn't additive, it's figurative depending on the scenario.

what does this mean?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Isn't the 6% damage reduction actually only 3% after all the calculations? I know some people have done the maths before. Is this still true, or has it been fixed?

read this post, it really explains everything well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ijttu/multiplicative_damage_reduction_diminishing/

specifically this part-

A boss hits you with an attack that deals 10000 damage unmitigated. You're drunk and are trying to fight him naked so you don't have any armor to protect yourself from the damage or weapons or a shield to block with. However, since you are a Nord (explains being drunk), your rugged passive reduces the damage by 6% to 9400.

10000 * .94 = 9400

You go up against the boss a second time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. You are wearing your armor this time, which reduces the damage by 50% to 5000. You're still hungover which caused you to forget your weapon and shield, so you have nothing to block with. Since you are a Nord, the damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 4700.

10000 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .47 = 4700

You go up against the boss a third time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. Your armor reduces the damage by 50% to 5000, and you remembered your weapon and shield so you are able to block another 50% of the damage, reducing it to 2500 (remember how I said tanks would become invulnerable if damage reduction was applied additively? 50% from armor and 50% from blocking is all it would take if these were applied additively). Since you are a Nord, this damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 2350.

10000 * .5 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .235 = 2350

In all three cases, the Nord's passive reduced your damage received by exactly 6% of what you would have otherwise received without it. In all three cases it provided exactly the full amount of damage reduction that it was supposed to. This is important, and if this seems insignificant to you, then it's time I moved on to the concept of effective hit points, because that's the big picture I've been working towards.

It does seem insignificant to me. We've gone from reducing 600 of the initial 10,000 damage (itself not really that great; Nord's passive doesn't stop one shots, which ESO has so many) to reducing 150, which is imperceptible.

*Reads concept of effective hit points*

*Wonders Why the Imperial is just standing there like a target dummy and not using its own Red Diamond passive*

*Considers author's example, the last one listed (10000 * .5 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .235 = 23500)

*Considers author's example of Nord and Imperial both having 30,000 health and claims Nord has 7659 more "effective health"

After 1 attack: Nord's health = 27,650; Imperial's Health = 27,500
After 2: Nord = 25,300; Imperial = 25,000
3: Nord = 22950; Imperial = 22500
4: Nord = 20600; Imperial = 20000
5: Nord = 18250, Imperial = 17500
6: Nord = 15900; Imperial = 15000
7: Nord = 13550; Imperial = 12500
8: Nord = 11200; Imperial = 10000
9: Nord = 8850; Imperial = 7500
10: Nord = 6500; Imperial = 5000
11: Nord = 4150; Imperial = 2500
12: Nord = 1800; Imperial= 0 (dead)
13: Nord = dead

Not seeing it. I'm seeing a useless racial passive that makes zero effect on the fight until the 12th hit occurs. And that's only because we happened to choose 30,000 health. If we say choose 30,500 health, this is what happens after the 10th hit:

11: Nord = 4650; Imperial = 3000
12: Nord = 2300; Imperial = 500
13: Nord = dead; Imperial = dead

Now we're literally useless as opposed to figuratively. And none of this, again, consider's the Imperial's Red diamond Passive or higher max health bonus. So, in both cases the Imperial would still be alive while the Nord is dead.

And what if we throw Battle Spirit in there, another 50% multiplicative damage multiplier, which further diminishes how much less damage the Nord is taking compared to the Imperial?

TL;DR If you want to be a good tank in ESO, you do not pick the "tank" race in a Nord. Instead you pick the good "healing" race in an Argonian. Or just take the Imperial.

Essentially the Nord is just a cheap version of the imperial.

lassitershawn · April 2018

Agree with nord buff. Wouldn't mind a Breton buff either, they are pretty inferior to Altmer and Dunmer for DPS (couple K difference, matters a lot over a long fight) and the spell resist does not make up for it. % magic damage would be nice (7-9% added to one of the other passives would be balanced I think). Would still be a lot less DPS than Altmer and Dunmer for almost all builds but by a smaller margin. Plenty of races have multiple things stacked on one passive. Alternatively they could add some % shield strength (like bastion CP passive) if they want to go with the "magically tanky" feel.

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

lassitershawn wrote: »

Agree with nord buff. Wouldn't mind a Breton buff either, they are pretty inferior to Altmer and Dunmer for DPS (couple K difference, matters a lot over a long fight) and the spell resist does not make up for it. % magic damage would be nice (7-9% added to one of the other passives would be balanced I think). Would still be a lot less DPS than Altmer and Dunmer for almost all builds but by a smaller margin. Plenty of races have multiple things stacked on one passive. Alternatively they could add some % shield strength (like bastion CP passive) if they want to go with the "magically tanky" feel.

An increase in magic damage dealt would be a great feature for Breton.

Mettaricana · April 2018

Give nord a passive 2.5k stam max when using a drink buff

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

Mettaricana wrote: »

Give nord a passive 2.5k stam max when using a drink buff

Well they do like to drink and fight lol

aeowulf · April 2018

nice stats - is the 20% health regen nords get taken into consideration?

Both imperial & nord don't really stand out as awesome in the world of sustain Morrowind introduced. Might be Summerset will change that.

tons of threads on here about race - loads of good ideas. no comments from ZoS

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Mettaricana wrote: »

Give nord a passive 2.5k stam max when using a drink buff

then again, this is forcing all nords to using a drink. Which limits build options.

Because if they use a food instead of a drink, they'll be missing out.

aeowulf · April 2018

alcoholic drink

IlCanis_LupuslI · April 2018

Buff Red Diamond Passive please or rework it into something usefull innstead of a 10% chance of getting 1k health back.......
Some kind of sustain passive like the argonian 1 would be cool...
@ZOS_GinaBruno

The_Brosteen · April 2018

stam return on getting hit seems like a good way to go. very situational, gives nords something special for them, doubt it would be perceived as op, as long as it has a cooldown and not an insane amount like 10% to get 9000 stam back when taking damage.

Although maybe initially make it 9001 so we can have all the "its over 9000!!!!!" jokes on the forums. I'd enjoy that.

lucky_Sage · April 2018

people said they should add magicka return to Bretons on taking dmg a long time ago

SoulKing32 · April 2018

Nord definitely need better passives. They were designed as a tank race but other races like argonian can do that job better. I actually like the idea of getting stam back when being hit!

usmcjdking · April 2018

I'd like to see Undeath passive replace Rugged.

Silver_Strider · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

Give nord a passive 2.5k stam max when using a drink buff

then again, this is forcing all nords to using a drink. Which limits build options.

Because if they use a food instead of a drink, they'll be missing out.

Oh the horror, having to use Dubious Cameron on a Nord.

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

Give nord a passive 2.5k stam max when using a drink buff

then again, this is forcing all nords to using a drink. Which limits build options.

Because if they use a food instead of a drink, they'll be missing out.

Oh the horror, having to use Dubious Cameron on a Nord.

Yeah because of the sustain changes in Morrowind it is the go to drink for pretty much all content.

Itzmichi · April 2018

Agree, they can't compete with other classes really need some useful passives. But this accurate on like 60% of the races I'd say.

Mystrius_Archaion · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Isn't the 6% damage reduction actually only 3% after all the calculations? I know some people have done the maths before. Is this still true, or has it been fixed?

read this post, it really explains everything well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ijttu/multiplicative_damage_reduction_diminishing/

specifically this part-

A boss hits you with an attack that deals 10000 damage unmitigated. You're drunk and are trying to fight him naked so you don't have any armor to protect yourself from the damage or weapons or a shield to block with. However, since you are a Nord (explains being drunk), your rugged passive reduces the damage by 6% to 9400.

10000 * .94 = 9400

You go up against the boss a second time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. You are wearing your armor this time, which reduces the damage by 50% to 5000. You're still hungover which caused you to forget your weapon and shield, so you have nothing to block with. Since you are a Nord, the damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 4700.

10000 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .47 = 4700

You go up against the boss a third time and he hits you for 10000 damage unmitigated again. Your armor reduces the damage by 50% to 5000, and you remembered your weapon and shield so you are able to block another 50% of the damage, reducing it to 2500 (remember how I said tanks would become invulnerable if damage reduction was applied additively? 50% from armor and 50% from blocking is all it would take if these were applied additively). Since you are a Nord, this damage is reduced by an additional 6% to 2350.

10000 * .5 * .5 * .94 = 10000 * .235 = 2350

In all three cases, the Nord's passive reduced your damage received by exactly 6% of what you would have otherwise received without it. In all three cases it provided exactly the full amount of damage reduction that it was supposed to. This is important, and if this seems insignificant to you, then it's time I moved on to the concept of effective hit points, because that's the big picture I've been working towards.

Except the 6% Nord passive applies before armor and resistances. It's purely 6% damage reduction, though your armor has less benefit after.

Mystrius_Archaion · April 2018

I would prefer all races to either be able to pick whatever passives you want for your build or just get rid of racial passives entirely, both so we can pick whatever race we like the look of and still be as effective as we can possibly be.

Either way, racial passives are not intended to be the difference between winning and losing, and they aren't. It's all just measuring private parts beyond that.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

Am I the only one that thinks racial passives should be removed completely and races be chosen for aesthetics and lore/roleplaying?

Otherwise, races will NEVER be balanced.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2018

Tasear wrote: »

They are immune to chilled damage and it's minor maim. They have a damage reduction along with max stats that makes best tanks to endure and sustain. The are a sturdy race.

Not everything is about damage output.

That passive is not as good as you think if you work the math many have and it’s trash hell to make it better without a buff would need it to be taken before all others. Also a needed change is add both frost resistance and buff frost damage. Nords should be to Warden like Dummer is to Dragon Knight. Finally a stamina return on hit equal to Redguard’s in amount and cool down. This would a nice bonus for DPS and add much needing blocking sustain for Tanks.

Side note the problem with super health recovery has been fixed with defile so it’s time to add 30% health recovery back it. So +30% health recovery, stamina return on damage equals to Redguard and keep the resistance the same but add +10% frost damage. This would be strong but everyone should be strong at something. There are powerful enough to hold large chucks of land somehow.

Side side note: All my characters are Argonians and I will never even think about playing a different race when playing any Elder Scrolls Game so I have no dogs in this fight. But I love the series and lore. All lore points to Nords being strong warriors who’s sword you would prefer being behind and not in front of. While Nords are not lovers of magic when their a born with magic they make so if the best Frost Mages point.

starkerealm · April 2018

Daus wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Just give hem a stam return when hit. Like adrenaline rush but when hit. And they are gtg

I think giving them a passive similar to Constitution would be ideal. Logically it should give more stamina than adrenaline considering the difference in conditions.

Replacing Stalwart with Constitution would put Nords very close to Imperials. This isn't automatically a terrible thing, but somehow turning them into an alternate for Imperials seems like kind of a waste.

notyuu · April 2018

Truth be told, the current passives nords have would work wonderfully if just two little things were changed

1: stalwart health recovery into healing recieved (health recovery would be awesome..but guess what...healers are a thing so it's moot)
2: Rugged from damage resistance to block effectiveness increase (or maybe cost reduction)

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Daus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

Give nord a passive 2.5k stam max when using a drink buff

then again, this is forcing all nords to using a drink. Which limits build options.

Because if they use a food instead of a drink, they'll be missing out.

Oh the horror, having to use Dubious Cameron on a Nord.

Yeah because of the sustain changes in Morrowind it is the go to drink for pretty much all content.

I know its more optimal, but I still hate it. I always liked using max stam-hp food, and I still use it over dubious, unless I know I'm going to have a veeeery long fight with a tough opponent.

in the end, if nord had a defensive version of adrenaline rush, I'm pretty sure I would instantly race change into a nord, so for that to happen and be balanced, nord must lose the damage reduction passive to balance it out.

DuskMarine · April 2018

Daus wrote: »

They're really not competitive for anything. It could be argued that they're a good choice for tanking, but when you have Argonians in the same alliance why choose a Nord? Truthfully I think they should make them a viable choice for stam DPS since that's what EP is lacking.

nords i think were suppose to be the staple tanking race that zos wanted but it didnt work out so well cause not everyone tanking liked nords.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

They're really not competitive for anything. It could be argued that they're a good choice for tanking, but when you have Argonians in the same alliance why choose a Nord? Truthfully I think they should make them a viable choice for stam DPS since that's what EP is lacking.

nords i think were suppose to be the staple tanking race that zos wanted but it didnt work out so well cause not everyone tanking liked nords.

I think ZOS thought of nords as ''poor man's imperial''. It was just messy bussiness from the beginning, locking a race behind paywall... eh. But what do I know, pay to win does not exist right boys?

Twohothardware · April 2018

Nord, Khajiit, Imperial, Wood Elf, and Breton all need changes to bring them in line with where the meta races Redguard, Argonian, and Dark Elf are at. There's too much of an advantage after the Morrowind changes to playing as Redguard in PvE and Argonian in PvP. The difference in sustain is very noticeable. The advantages these other races have are not.