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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Stamina DK's need an Identity before Summerset is released
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.Edited by NobleX35 on April 10, 2018 3:25PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
The last paragraph is all I need to be happy as a Dk. Give me back my old Dk passives, and I don't need no whip really.Edited by Ragnarock41 on April 10, 2018 7:36PM0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....
Now who’s making assumptions? I will admit that I don’t have a lot of magdk experience, but I have enough as well as enough understanding of the class and the game to know that you’re being dramatic when you saying that turning Molten Whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdk...it would not kill pve magdk and to say so otherwise is just ridiculous.Edited by NobleX35 on April 10, 2018 7:56PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....
Now who’s making assumptions? I will admit that I don’t have a lot of magdk experience, but I have enough as well as enough understanding of the class and the game to know that you’re being dramatic when you saying that turning Molten Whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdk...it would not kill pve magdk and to say so otherwise is just ridiculous.
To begin with, magicka DK is almost non-existent in end-game raiding since many months back. So you can already say that it´s "dead". I´ve seen a few magDK´s out there being successful, but those are using a perfected asylum staff, which again, the majority of the playerbase doesn´t have or ever will have access to. And the difference between imperfect and perfected inferno is quite big so using the non-perfected version is not an option if you ask me.
From my (and other´s testings) these are "roughly" the numbers you´ll get on a 6 million dummy self-drained (aka solo) with different spammables:
#1 39-40k. Using Force Pulse with a Perfected Asylum Infernostaff
#2 36-37k. Using Molten Whip
#3 31-34k. Force Pulse (not using Asylum Staff) or Flame-Lash. Force Pulse comes out on top of the two
Making Molten Whip a stamina morph leaves magDK to either use Flame-Lash, or go with force-pulse. Flame-Lash is too much of a DPS loss so that leaves Force-Pulse as the only option (unless you want to run a heavy attack build with lightning staff). And just like that you´ve removed an identifying skill/morph from magDK´s. As I said, I´m all fine with giving identity to stamDK, but to the cost of removing/nerfing magDK´s identity is not the way to do it.
And if I´m forced to go with a Force-Pulse rotation (assuming I don´t have a perfected inferno), why the heck should I pick magDK for? A magsorcs or magblade can utilize a force-pulse rotation/build much more efficiently from range, giving more room for stamina melee builds that gives more damage to the group.
Making molten whip a stamina ability creates more issues than it solves. Revert Battleroar changes and you´ll have more identity back than any stamina whip will ever give you.
0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....
Now who’s making assumptions? I will admit that I don’t have a lot of magdk experience, but I have enough as well as enough understanding of the class and the game to know that you’re being dramatic when you saying that turning Molten Whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdk...it would not kill pve magdk and to say so otherwise is just ridiculous.
To begin with, magicka DK is almost non-existent in end-game raiding since many months back. So you can already say that it´s "dead". I´ve seen a few magDK´s out there being successful, but those are using a perfected asylum staff, which again, the majority of the playerbase doesn´t have or ever will have access to. And the difference between imperfect and perfected inferno is quite big so using the non-perfected version is not an option if you ask me.
From my (and other´s testings) these are "roughly" the numbers you´ll get on a 6 million dummy self-drained (aka solo) with different spammables:
#1 39-40k. Using Force Pulse with a Perfected Asylum Infernostaff
#2 36-37k. Using Molten Whip
#3 31-34k. Force Pulse (not using Asylum Staff) or Flame-Lash. Force Pulse comes out on top of the two
Making Molten Whip a stamina morph leaves magDK to either use Flame-Lash, or go with force-pulse. Flame-Lash is too much of a DPS loss so that leaves Force-Pulse as the only option (unless you want to run a heavy attack build with lightning staff). And just like that you´ve removed an identifying skill/morph from magDK´s. As I said, I´m all fine with giving identity to stamDK, but to the cost of removing/nerfing magDK´s identity is not the way to do it.
And if I´m forced to go with a Force-Pulse rotation (assuming I don´t have a perfected inferno), why the heck should I pick magDK for? A magsorcs or magblade can utilize a force-pulse rotation/build much more efficiently from range, giving more room for stamina melee builds that gives more damage to the group.
Making molten whip a stamina ability creates more issues than it solves. Revert Battleroar changes and you´ll have more identity back than any stamina whip will ever give you.
I’m tired of arguing with you so this will be my last post on this matter.
1. They will not revert the changes to Battle Roar, since it goes against their intended vision for sustain in the game and would also have additional balance implications for magdks. A buff would be nice, which maybe they would consider, but I can assure you they will not revert it to what it was before. People should really stop asking for them to revert it, and instead maybe ask for them to simply buff the numbers.
2. You keep saying that changing molten whip would “kill” madks, and my argument is that it would not “kill” them. You have alternatives and some serious buffs coming your way based on pre-pts information. So stop being dramatic. Changing molten whip into a stamina morph would not take away magdks identity, especially since most don’t even use the skill now. You can’t complain about losing an “identity” that you don’t even have right now.
I don’t even really know why we keep arguing about this anyway since they probably won’t change molten whip to a stamina morph anyway. My biggest argument for stamdks is that we need either a decent spammable or some sort of delayed burst. Personally I think we need a decent spammable since delayed burst would make us too similar to wardens. Now if they would make some changes to the weapon spammables to make the current ones (dizzying swing, rapid strikes) more useful and competitive, then we wouldn’t need a stamina whip.Edited by NobleX35 on April 11, 2018 1:42PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....
Now who’s making assumptions? I will admit that I don’t have a lot of magdk experience, but I have enough as well as enough understanding of the class and the game to know that you’re being dramatic when you saying that turning Molten Whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdk...it would not kill pve magdk and to say so otherwise is just ridiculous.
To begin with, magicka DK is almost non-existent in end-game raiding since many months back. So you can already say that it´s "dead". I´ve seen a few magDK´s out there being successful, but those are using a perfected asylum staff, which again, the majority of the playerbase doesn´t have or ever will have access to. And the difference between imperfect and perfected inferno is quite big so using the non-perfected version is not an option if you ask me.
From my (and other´s testings) these are "roughly" the numbers you´ll get on a 6 million dummy self-drained (aka solo) with different spammables:
#1 39-40k. Using Force Pulse with a Perfected Asylum Infernostaff
#2 36-37k. Using Molten Whip
#3 31-34k. Force Pulse (not using Asylum Staff) or Flame-Lash. Force Pulse comes out on top of the two
Making Molten Whip a stamina morph leaves magDK to either use Flame-Lash, or go with force-pulse. Flame-Lash is too much of a DPS loss so that leaves Force-Pulse as the only option (unless you want to run a heavy attack build with lightning staff). And just like that you´ve removed an identifying skill/morph from magDK´s. As I said, I´m all fine with giving identity to stamDK, but to the cost of removing/nerfing magDK´s identity is not the way to do it.
And if I´m forced to go with a Force-Pulse rotation (assuming I don´t have a perfected inferno), why the heck should I pick magDK for? A magsorcs or magblade can utilize a force-pulse rotation/build much more efficiently from range, giving more room for stamina melee builds that gives more damage to the group.
Making molten whip a stamina ability creates more issues than it solves. Revert Battleroar changes and you´ll have more identity back than any stamina whip will ever give you.
I’m tired of arguing with you so this will be my last post on this matter = I´ve nothing constructive to say
1. They will not revert the changes to Battle Roar, since it goes against their intended vision for sustain in the game and would also have additional balance implications for magdks. A buff would be nice, which maybe they would consider, but I can assure you they will not revert it to what it was before. People should really stop asking for them to revert it, and instead maybe ask for them to simply buff the numbers.
2. You keep saying that changing molten whip would “kill” madks, and my argument is that it would not “kill” them. You have alternatives and some serious buffs coming your way based on pre-pts information. So stop being dramatic. Changing molten whip into a stamina morph would not take away magdks identity, especially since most don’t even use the skill now. You can’t complain about losing an “identity” that you don’t even have right now.
Reason I used quotation marks when writing "kill" was to avoid to be framed as dramatic, but obviously that didn´t get through. But sure, keep cherry-picking what I say and ignore the rest.
MagDK`s isn´t used simply because stamina melee´s are better in terms of DPS. Molten whip is used, I can assure you of that (the few of us that still play them). And if you would´ve bother playing the class you would understand that as well.You can’t complain about losing an “identity” that you don’t even have right now
And this is an even better reason not to rework Molten Whip into a stamina skill, thanks for making it even more obvious.0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.
I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.
I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.
An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.Anti_Virus wrote: »@Ragnarock41
Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like
@NobleX35
Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.
Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.
And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.
I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.
I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.
I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.
Pretty much this.
And they would have to take away any special healing or other effects to make it balanced since stam dk's have execute and defile access. (Reverb = defile) (Back bar 2h or Bow = Executioner and Posion arrow) Executes.
It wouldnt normally be a problem but stam dk's are tanky asf to have that much spammable burst.
Stam dk's need an Earthen heart skill that synergizes with their playstyle. The one from above was a good idea for the delayed poison burst attack. Would def be more unique and passives from eathen heart would synergize with the class setup without being to strong.
Stating stam Dk has an execute and a defile is pointless because every OTHER stam class has access to the same skill and more due to class defined stam skills.
Yeah I put in work with a 2h on my sWK(weapon knight) but why when other stam classes have more to offer?
@Ragnarock41
Stam whip opens up numerous build options for sWK you can run a 2h/ DW without having to spam the silly clunky dd skills from it *cough* dizzing swing and won't make sWK OP in PVe parses since whip wouldn't compete with rapid strikes.
Heroic slash isn't meant to be a spammable which is why is has a high cost
Saying stam whip is useless like like saying suprise attack and bitting jabs are useless, why don't we make stamplars spam heroic slash for damage in pvp since they are "forced" into using SnB/2h? Nightblades don't need suprise attack just have them spam rapid strikes since they are forced into using DW
And if we are going to make that arguement then I guess you wouldn't mind if we make them magic morphs again? So all stam classes can be homogenized for better balancing.
point is that even with a spammable you will be missing out compared to other classes. Nightblades aren't op because of suprise attack, templars aren't melting people because biting jabs is an OP ability. Its quite the opposite, both classes have crit bonuses and good kits and passives that support a damage dealer build in PvP.
My stamplar disagrees with the later, usually its the DKs or the wardens kit that supports my DPS ... in both PVE as well as PVP.
But I see why you may assume its otherwise.0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....
Now who’s making assumptions? I will admit that I don’t have a lot of magdk experience, but I have enough as well as enough understanding of the class and the game to know that you’re being dramatic when you saying that turning Molten Whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdk...it would not kill pve magdk and to say so otherwise is just ridiculous.
To begin with, magicka DK is almost non-existent in end-game raiding since many months back. So you can already say that it´s "dead". I´ve seen a few magDK´s out there being successful, but those are using a perfected asylum staff, which again, the majority of the playerbase doesn´t have or ever will have access to. And the difference between imperfect and perfected inferno is quite big so using the non-perfected version is not an option if you ask me.
From my (and other´s testings) these are "roughly" the numbers you´ll get on a 6 million dummy self-drained (aka solo) with different spammables:
#1 39-40k. Using Force Pulse with a Perfected Asylum Infernostaff
#2 36-37k. Using Molten Whip
#3 31-34k. Force Pulse (not using Asylum Staff) or Flame-Lash. Force Pulse comes out on top of the two
Making Molten Whip a stamina morph leaves magDK to either use Flame-Lash, or go with force-pulse. Flame-Lash is too much of a DPS loss so that leaves Force-Pulse as the only option (unless you want to run a heavy attack build with lightning staff). And just like that you´ve removed an identifying skill/morph from magDK´s. As I said, I´m all fine with giving identity to stamDK, but to the cost of removing/nerfing magDK´s identity is not the way to do it.
And if I´m forced to go with a Force-Pulse rotation (assuming I don´t have a perfected inferno), why the heck should I pick magDK for? A magsorcs or magblade can utilize a force-pulse rotation/build much more efficiently from range, giving more room for stamina melee builds that gives more damage to the group.
Making molten whip a stamina ability creates more issues than it solves. Revert Battleroar changes and you´ll have more identity back than any stamina whip will ever give you.
I’m tired of arguing with you so this will be my last post on this matter = I´ve nothing constructive to say
1. They will not revert the changes to Battle Roar, since it goes against their intended vision for sustain in the game and would also have additional balance implications for magdks. A buff would be nice, which maybe they would consider, but I can assure you they will not revert it to what it was before. People should really stop asking for them to revert it, and instead maybe ask for them to simply buff the numbers.
2. You keep saying that changing molten whip would “kill” madks, and my argument is that it would not “kill” them. You have alternatives and some serious buffs coming your way based on pre-pts information. So stop being dramatic. Changing molten whip into a stamina morph would not take away magdks identity, especially since most don’t even use the skill now. You can’t complain about losing an “identity” that you don’t even have right now.
Reason I used quotation marks when writing "kill" was to avoid to be framed as dramatic, but obviously that didn´t get through. But sure, keep cherry-picking what I say and ignore the rest.
MagDK`s isn´t used simply because stamina melee´s are better in terms of DPS. Molten whip is used, I can assure you of that (the few of us that still play them). And if you would´ve bother playing the class you would understand that as well.You can’t complain about losing an “identity” that you don’t even have right now
And this is an even better reason not to rework Molten Whip into a stamina skill, thanks for making it even more obvious.
If you wanted to avoid being framed as dramatic, then you should have chosen your words more carefully and not gone with such a dramatic word. Also here you are again making more assumptions. I have played a magdk, which is why you shouldn’t just assume. I said I didn’t have as much experience on magdk as stamdk, but I have still played one.
Also you’re last statement makes no sense...how does losing an “identity” you don’t even have make the argument against changing molten whip to stamina even stronger? You don’t have that identity so you can’t complain about not having it or not obtaining it.Edited by NobleX35 on April 11, 2018 2:03PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭I, personally, don't want a stamina whip version. No room on my bars for another ability anyway, I think instead, they should improve the abilities and passives that are currently available to stam dk's.6 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Just because the build you want to use would not be possible doesn’t mean turning molten whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdks. Magdks don’t use molten whip now and if it got changed you wouldn’t really know what you “potentially” missed.
I´ve tried both Molten Whip, Flame-Lash and Forcepulse, so I know very very well how the different skills perform in terms of DPS and sustainability. My claims are based on testing while yours seems to be more of assumptions and stuff you´ve read on the forum.....
Now who’s making assumptions? I will admit that I don’t have a lot of magdk experience, but I have enough as well as enough understanding of the class and the game to know that you’re being dramatic when you saying that turning Molten Whip into a stamina morph would kill pve magdk...it would not kill pve magdk and to say so otherwise is just ridiculous.
To begin with, magicka DK is almost non-existent in end-game raiding since many months back. So you can already say that it´s "dead". I´ve seen a few magDK´s out there being successful, but those are using a perfected asylum staff, which again, the majority of the playerbase doesn´t have or ever will have access to. And the difference between imperfect and perfected inferno is quite big so using the non-perfected version is not an option if you ask me.
From my (and other´s testings) these are "roughly" the numbers you´ll get on a 6 million dummy self-drained (aka solo) with different spammables:
#1 39-40k. Using Force Pulse with a Perfected Asylum Infernostaff
#2 36-37k. Using Molten Whip
#3 31-34k. Force Pulse (not using Asylum Staff) or Flame-Lash. Force Pulse comes out on top of the two
Making Molten Whip a stamina morph leaves magDK to either use Flame-Lash, or go with force-pulse. Flame-Lash is too much of a DPS loss so that leaves Force-Pulse as the only option (unless you want to run a heavy attack build with lightning staff). And just like that you´ve removed an identifying skill/morph from magDK´s. As I said, I´m all fine with giving identity to stamDK, but to the cost of removing/nerfing magDK´s identity is not the way to do it.
And if I´m forced to go with a Force-Pulse rotation (assuming I don´t have a perfected inferno), why the heck should I pick magDK for? A magsorcs or magblade can utilize a force-pulse rotation/build much more efficiently from range, giving more room for stamina melee builds that gives more damage to the group.
Making molten whip a stamina ability creates more issues than it solves. Revert Battleroar changes and you´ll have more identity back than any stamina whip will ever give you.
You didn't seem to mind when they changed ferocious leap into flame damage when it used to deal physical damage.
That was taking away from Stam DK believe it or not some sDKs used that morph now its not usable because mDk needed a single target burst ultimate which is fair to give.Edited by Anti_Virus on April 11, 2018 8:43PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Edit: I hate to admit, but you're right about giving stamDK whip and talons and etc... Those skills are the identity and the dragon theme of magDk, and maybe they should stay that way. stamDK was never really a ''Dragon'' Knight.
I disagree with this statement. Stamdks are still “dragon” knights, they just focus on other dragon elements...specifically the poison and physical side.
I don’t think we need a stam version of talons, but definitely do think we need a steam version of whip. We need better spammable options and the best solution is with whip. Either that or they need to change up the currently available weapon spammables to be more efficient.
An alternative solution to make stamdks competitive again is to provide some sort of delayed burst; however, I think that would make us to similar to other classes and is not as desirable of an option.Anti_Virus wrote: »@Ragnarock41
Thats BS stam dk absolutely needs to have an identity like the other stam classes otherwise why play one? And like
@NobleX35
Said a poison whip might be the puzzle piece to fix it. But I dont see them doing that sadly.
Yo calm down guys, I'm telling how the ZOS sees things rather than how I would like to see it. Thing is I don't want stamDK to have EVERYTHING. I just want to be able to play this class without feeling like I'm missing out on power.
And truth to be told, stamina Dk was never really a thing untill zos decided to give us the physical damage leap, the poison dots etc.
This class was always mainly magicka focused and it still is. That is the sad truth of things. Out of all stamina classes Dk is really the weakest themed one because of this.
I don’t want stamdk to have everything either, which is why I don’t think we need delayed burst and a class spammable. I do think we need one and preferably the spammable.
I definitely agree that it is unfortunate how the combat team seems to view StamDks and have done literally nothing to help boost them up from the bottom for the last year almost. A few small simple changes (like poison whip) would probably do the trick to make them fun and viable again. The mindset of having a class that “waits for allies to come and finish off opponents” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and does not promote good game balance.
I really don't see what poison whip would even change to be honest. In the end of the day If I'm still forced into SnB , poison whip means literally nothing. Heroic slash gives me good enough damage with utility packed in it. Don't really see a reason to use a whip instead of it just because it scales off of stamina.
It would likely do more damage than heroic slash and hopefully the morph would also be interesting. Not to mention it would open up dual wield as a possibility and could make running 2h front bar more viable as well. The greatest benefit from a poison whip would probably be build diversity.
I don’t think heroic slash was ever intended to be a “spammable” and while it has descent damage, it really borders on being mediocre.
To be real with you, in group play I prefer having pierce armor over heroic slash, due to having %50 cheaper cost. heroic slash is used for the minor maim and the ult gen. It gives you a little edge in 1v1 fights, and all stamDK can do is really 1v1.
The way I see it, poison whip would make it at least possible to make a 2h/bow stamDK build and actually play it without getting roflstomped by literally anyone. So it would be a start. But then the issues still remain.
Classes like stamsorc and stamblade are able to stall fights literally forever against a slow guy like stamDk, and stamplars are able to just cheese you down with POTL while purging your dots... You don't have any ways of buying time as a stamDK. You only have one shot, and one shot only. This is especially the case when you are dropping SnB. Medium or heavy does not matter. By dropping SnB you drop all your survivability with it.cause you are dropping block.
You need some sort of built-in cheese ability in the elder cheese online, if you want to make a creative build. Otherwise you are just stuck with SnB, as its the best cheese for stamDK.
This is why the wings buff is literally meaningless. Compared to things like cloak, dark deal, ritual etc... Wings just does not offer enough and is way too situational to make use of compared to the tools other classes have.
And when you add the fact that stamDk has garbage passives and is literally a sitting duck without expedition pots (there goes your diversity and ability to select potions , Its expedition pots or you dead) , then you realize why playing stamDk without SnB is such a pointless thing.
Even pierce armor wasn't meant to be a "spammable," but that doesn't stop it from potentially being one. Just like Heroic Slash it has borderline mediocre damage. Theoretically a stam whip would easily be able to get to 11-13k (if not higher) tooltip damage, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a spammable.
I do agree that the wings change is pretty laughable. Without immunity, it is still garbage.
Stamdks do still have decent survivability. I know I'm "tankier" on my stamdk than my stamplar; however, my stamplar has significantly better burst via access to a class spammable, delay burst from PotL, provides better group utility, and is still pretty tanky. A class spammable would help open build diversity and would be a good start towards making meaningful changes. While we won't have the best burst in the game (nor should we), we will still be one of the tankier classes in the game, have access to decent CC skills, pressure skills, and decent damage via a spammable.Nelson_Rebel wrote: »If the spamable takes from Magdk's then yes it does
The other classes wete built around making sure that some had spammables but had clear counters. If is a stam dk is giving a spammable with no conditonal use of it (delay for example) it then has no clear counter when you factor in its access to everything else.
It already had the highest (stam version) pve dps for stamina toons. But that may change next patch
Im not saying stam dk doesnt need a buff, but it needs a buff without overpowering the class when it has a lot to it. And you seem to only be focusing on what it doesnt have while forgetting the unique traits it does have
Turning Molten Whip into a stamina ability will have a very minimal (if any effect) on Magdk's, because all Magdk's use powerlash. Giving stamdk's a class spammable will not throw them over the edge and make them OP. They will not suddenly become unkillable gods with no counter because they actually have access to a decent hard hitting skill.
Also a stam whip will probably do very little for pve stamdks, since the meta for them is built around heavy attacks and dots. There is no room for spammable like whip on the dps bar.Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I already said that stamina dk could use a buff
I dont think it needs a spammable though. But more synergy with earthen heart skilline
Please pay attention the previous posts
A spammable via Stonefist would not work for stamdk's for the simple fact of the Helping Hands passive. It would have to cost a ton of resources just to compensate for the constant return and would thus lose a lot of it's flavor. Also it would work against petrify by blocking the stun, or the stun would be rendered useless due to petrify. Lastly hard cc's on spammables are usually not very well balanced.
These are some good points you have here. I just want to remind everyone that if we keep things civil but at the same time voice our opinions on how to improve Stam DK we may be able to get the ZOS team to consider us seriously. Remember: the squeaky wheel gets the oil.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"tank" isn't an identity? lol'd
2 other classes can facetank better, and the other two have better class mitigation skills, even though they aren't innately tanky.
Minor protection from wardens frost cloak outdoes DKs 5% extra mitigation (10% of the 50% reduction when blocking, and only whilst blocking) and 3k resists (only spell) and counts for all damage, and is constant. Templars melee block 7.5% and balanced warrior competes. And I suppose if you want to use the vitality/protection morph as a temp tank then that too.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭"tank" isn't an identity? lol'd
Hard to say it's much of an identity when 3 other classes do it just as well. Wardens, due to their passives and because of Ice Fortress, Templar due to passives, and actually yes, Stam Sorcs SnB spec. In fact, if you even want to take it further, if the changes for NB go through in the Summerset patch, they are going to have access to not only Minor Protection from the altered morph that used to provide cloak, but in addition, they will have access to the Dark Shade morph that provides an AOE Minor Maim! That is literally like wearing an entire set of Wizard's Riposte. You know, the set that has been shown to be extremely effective in reducing overall damage in PvP. If you want some math to back it up here is the link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ArD78Mb6ynj8B5nofC8Zm9B1Vdy7lYjsovjDQ_kEovY/edit#gid=1532841434
So yeah, no. "Tanking" is not an identity Stam DK can claim anymore.
Edited by Kronuxx on April 12, 2018 8:02AM0 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nightblades already have minor maim in their toolkit, so the aoe minor maim actually doesnt make a difference. Shade alread gives minor maim to the focussed enemy and mass hysteria is pretty much aoe minor maim. The change to shade isnt a real improvement, since the shade normally isnt in the enemy mass in pvp. The shade morph for pvp, is the stationary one and it gets placed away from enenies to have an escape mechanic.0 -
Fiedelstrich✭✭I would love to see "Stone Giant" becoming some sort of melee "Overload".
While active it drains X Stamina every second, you gain minor berserk, your light attacks restore X health and your heavy attacks throw enemys back.
It could look like boxing gloves made out of stone
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm, Here's the way i look at it on Stamina Whip
Who would use it?
DW/2 Handed would be your most likely users of Stamina Whip.
If they pair either of those weapon lines with 1 handed shield you probably wouldn't use Whip because Heroic Slash is absolutely one of the best Spammables in the game when you consider the amount of *** it does.
SO Whip would either have to do a massive amount of damage or have something really strong to compete with it.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hmm, Here's the way i look at it on Stamina Whip
Who would use it?
DW/2 Handed would be your most likely users of Stamina Whip.
If they pair either of those weapon lines with 1 handed shield you probably wouldn't use Whip because Heroic Slash is absolutely one of the best Spammables in the game when you consider the amount of *** it does.
SO Whip would either have to do a massive amount of damage or have something really strong to compete with it.
Look at stamplar a class that actually has a spammable most 2h + 1h&s builds use both heroic Slash/ ransack + jabs.
You use one as a buff/ debuff skill and the other as your actual spammable with which you kill people.
If heroic Slash would be better than any class spammable (except for warden birds because they are bad) then why do all of the run their class spammable over heroic slash.1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm, Here's the way i look at it on Stamina Whip
Who would use it?
DW/2 Handed would be your most likely users of Stamina Whip.
If they pair either of those weapon lines with 1 handed shield you probably wouldn't use Whip because Heroic Slash is absolutely one of the best Spammables in the game when you consider the amount of *** it does.
SO Whip would either have to do a massive amount of damage or have something really strong to compete with it.
Look at stamplar a class that actually has a spammable most 2h + 1h&s builds use both heroic Slash/ ransack + jabs.
You use one as a buff/ debuff skill and the other as your actual spammable with which you kill people.
If heroic Slash would be better than any class spammable (except for warden birds because they are bad) then why do all of the run their class spammable over heroic slash.
Templars run jabs because it knocks people out of stealth, is aoe, and does vastly more damage then heroic slash and it applies crit chance as well.
A better comparison would be stamblades and surprise attack. But again why do people use it over heroic slash? It applies armor debuff and gives you armor buff at same time as well other benefits
Now take whip, what bonus could you possibly get out of it that’s not covered by another ability the dks have?
Basically either whip does a crap ton of damage or they just mirror the heal. That’s be only way it’s used over heroic most likely.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I see that everyone is trying to bend the class to their personal likings and the topic is going a bit out of hand.
I listed what are the main problems with stamDk in my first post here and I don't think I need to repeat myself on that.
I will not be posting anything else about this till patch notes are here, as I believe that if ZOS wants our feedback about this, surely they did read this post already, and if they don't then none of the things we talk here matters anyways.0 -
Jakx✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »I see that everyone is trying to bend the class to their personal likings and the topic is going a bit out of hand.
I listed what are the main problems with stamDk in my first post here and I don't think I need to repeat myself on that.
I will not be posting anything else about this till patch notes are here, as I believe that if ZOS wants our feedback about this, surely they did read this post already, and if they don't then none of the things we talk here matters anyways.
Doesn't look like it mattered.
Joined September 20130 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
Lol that is somebody serious bs right there. Magdks don’t use molten whip, and if it gets changed to stamina whip they won’t know the difference of not having it in end they already don’t use it. Besides mag build in general sound like they’re getting lots of buffs next patch and 2h weapon changes to count as two slots will have a significant impact. Turning molten whip into a stamina whip will not kill pve magdks especially since they don’t even really use it now.
The one and only reason, Molten whip hasn´t been used since Morrowind is simply because it´s been impossible to sustain a rotation with it (If I could use/sustain Molten Whip I would use it 7 days/week). People therefore used Flame-Lash together with lightning blockade and made use of off-balance to proc Power-Lash. With the changes to off-balance and Flame-Lash in Dragon Bones patch, those setups are not viable anymore.
This has given magDK´s two options:
1. Go with a Force-Pulse rotation: This is basically only viable if you´ve a Perfected Asylum Inferno staff, which the majority of the player base doesn´t has access to.
2. Go back to Molten Whip
or the third option = Stop playing magDK in PvE (which is what a lot of people did)
Unless you´ve a perfected staff, molten whip will give you more overall damage. With the upcoming changes in Summerset we´ll have enough sustain through the new Combustion Passive + The ability to frontbar Moondancer (since 2handed weapons then counts as 2 slots), which will be absolutely amazing for magDK. These changes will give magDK the sustain to use Molten Whip as our main spammable again.
Add to the list the possibility of using elemental drain with a flame staffSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »I see that everyone is trying to bend the class to their personal likings and the topic is going a bit out of hand.
I listed what are the main problems with stamDk in my first post here and I don't think I need to repeat myself on that.
I will not be posting anything else about this till patch notes are here, as I believe that if ZOS wants our feedback about this, surely they did read this post already, and if they don't then none of the things we talk here matters anyways.
Doesn't look like it mattered.
Obviously it does not at this point. Quite sad isn't it?Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 14, 2018 9:09PM2 -
EldritchPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
I've got an idea, then.The thing with stamina whip is that you´ll have to remove one of the already existing morphs. Removing Flame-Lash and suddenly you´ve killed magicka DK in PvP. Flame-Lash is not used in PvE anymore due to the off-balance changes
Changing Molten Whip to a stamina skill and all magDK´s will run force-pulse in PvE (which the few existing magDK´s already do sadly). Molten Whip will be used more now when magDK get´s better sustain (combustion-passive rework + the ability to frontbar Moondancer now when staves are counting as two-pieces).
So basically you can´t have a stamina whip without "killing" magDK in PvP and PvE, which is a trade-off only someone really biased towards their own playstyle would agree upon. I´m ok with giving classes more "identity", but not by trading it for another spec´s "identity". No matter what class we talk about.
ZOS has confirmed they want DK to be more of a "stand your ground" class. Giving DK´s a buff to Battle Roar (especially BR) and Helping Hands would in my opinion be a good way to do so.
The extra 101 spell damage only to Ardent Flame abilities when having it slotted is a pretty crappy effect to have as the sole effect you gain from the morph.
So why not make the base ability add 101 spell damage or weapon damage to Ardent Flame abilities, whichever is higher, and then add the stamina morph with a totally new effect? It's not like it would do anything to break mDKs in PvE or PvP, while it would give a potentially very helpful buff to sDKs.Lilelle Adlis - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Vaynothah Sailenar - Dark Elf Templar
Sherivah Telvanni - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Nephiah Telvanni - Dark Elf Nightblade1 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »I see that everyone is trying to bend the class to their personal likings and the topic is going a bit out of hand.
I listed what are the main problems with stamDk in my first post here and I don't think I need to repeat myself on that.
I will not be posting anything else about this till patch notes are here, as I believe that if ZOS wants our feedback about this, surely they did read this post already, and if they don't then none of the things we talk here matters anyways.
Doesn't look like it mattered.
Obviously it does not at this point. Quite sad isn't it?
I'm now convinced that ZOS is nothing but money mongers. Gina's post only proves that they are liars. If you read between the lines, they basically are saying they only have time to work on new content. Well since every major patch is based on new content, then all they ever will do is continue to try and focus on fixing new content they bring in despite the fact that every previous iteration prior to the newest thing needs continual balancing. So in short, nothing ever truly gets balanced or fixed, just new stuff added on top. I finally came to the resolution to not spend another dime on this game until their direction changes.3 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »I see that everyone is trying to bend the class to their personal likings and the topic is going a bit out of hand.
I listed what are the main problems with stamDk in my first post here and I don't think I need to repeat myself on that.
I will not be posting anything else about this till patch notes are here, as I believe that if ZOS wants our feedback about this, surely they did read this post already, and if they don't then none of the things we talk here matters anyways.
Doesn't look like it mattered.
Obviously it does not at this point. Quite sad isn't it?
I'm now convinced that ZOS is nothing but money mongers. Gina's post only proves that they are liars. If you read between the lines, they basically are saying they only have time to work on new content. Well since every major patch is based on new content, then all they ever will do is continue to try and focus on fixing new content they bring in despite the fact that every previous iteration prior to the newest thing needs continual balancing. So in short, nothing ever truly gets balanced or fixed, just new stuff added on top. I finally came to the resolution to not spend another dime on this game until their direction changes.
This community asked for those nerfs, and they did what the community wanted Blaming them serves no purpose, even if you're right.
Don't like it? then don't pay for it.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 15, 2018 3:37PM0 -
NewFordOrder✭✭✭If you're a stamdk, just spam rapid strikes / blood craze / steel tornado / brawler.1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewFordOrder wrote: »If you're a stamdk, just spam rapid strikes / blood craze / steel tornado / brawler.
Just like every other stam class except Nightblade.Power Wealth And Influence.2