Rise Of A Bowtard - Bow/Bow ganker [Video]

Subversus · March 2018

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

this has derailed into the good old paper think stone is fine but wtf pls nref SCISSOR NAOW.

Instakilling anyone in ESO with a bow is probably one of the most difficult things to do in the game as it is now. Ill elaborate; In order to land the combo the OP is mostly using, it requires spray to hit before his snipe. His spray is at a distance which ALL classes, especially melee classes, love to have a medium bow player. He is vulnerable to almost anything. Then, to actually LAND that spray and THEN snipe,it has to pass the rng of dodging. If any of these two attacks miss or is dodged, its a fail, and guaranteed dead NB, unless the target is very, very bad. If both is dodged, its actually better. Noone dies from only one of the skills, or a double snipe for that sake.

Then, who can a player with this playstyle actually kill in one combo? Well, certainly notanyone with 25k+ health and HA. Neither the mage who has only one shield up. The templar wearing light armour is at risk. The best and typical target is another medium wearing class, meaning another NB. And to get a guaranteed combo hit on a NB in medium armour (none dodged), that NB is either out of stamina, standing at a siege or just afk.

So if we compare this combo and this threat to other roaming gankers, which one is the most effective? Bunnyjumping sorcs?, over the speed limit wardens?, unkillable tanks? Well, basically anyone competent enough to roam around solo trying to get a 1vx. Where does the bow-roamer stand? Personally on all my classes, Ill take the NB with a bow ANY day any situation, because it ususally is nothing more than an easy target.

Now why do so many run around with this combo then? Because it seems like a safe bet for many new players or players having problems competing with other classes and combos. Its relatively safe and can score a new player some kills from walls, from behind the zerg or just from trying to move aroun d without getting killed too much. That doesnt mean its the most effective. It means its the first pick for players who arent aware of the weaknesses of the style, or who find it difficult to handle the playstyle of the other classes. You get a hit or two on other players targets, giving you some ap. Thats about it. The competent or threatening nb's with bow can probably be counted on your fingers, and if you use your toes too thats about it.

So to sum up, this video is quite rare, because it shows a real competent bow-user in action. I personally find it very intriguing and I applaud the challenge he has decided to take. Not only is he a competent player, he has also taken it upon himself to prove his worth making a 1vx video with arguably the weakest 1vx class currently in cyrodiil. Well played OP.

Yes

Volsers · March 2018

Note: These Videos are really really fun to make so I decided to make another one, added it to the main post!
enjoy

killimandrosb16_ESO · March 2018

so funny I just realized Ive had some toes to toes with you

Im using a similar setup but not entirely

Xsorus · March 2018

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was going to say something about DAOC before you said anything; you could instant kill someone in that game and remain in stealth lol

As for other games with almost instant killing from stealth

Rift, GW2, even WoW and to some extent Warhammer Online.

I honestly have more issue with *** like earthgore or stamwarden zergs

Never played wow past lvl 20sth.

Rift, GW2 i´ve never faced it to the same extend.
Daoc didn´t have instantkills anymore after buffbots became common and before only shadowblades with 2h would instagib you (eso had that too) - i solod quite a bit on runemaster after SI release up to quitting the game. Also positional melee styles. I´ve never died to an archer instantly in daoc.
Swtor got rid of it quickly.
AoC got rid of it even quicker.
Warhammer had a different stealth system and didn´t have instantkills to the same extend.

The problem i have with eso is that you have unlimited amounts of time in sneak combined with high alpha strike dmg + unhindered ability to reset the fight.
Every other game had a maximum of two of these - and still adressed high alphastrike from stealth most of the times.
Either you didn´t have unlimited stealthtime.
You didn´t have high dmg (but debuffs) or you couldn´t return to sneak easily.
It´s the combination of all three that i disagree with.

The easiest solution for eso would imo be to simply get rid of permanent invisibility - as it would require the least amount of work.
If you don´t want that reduce the dmg done from sneak/cloak and 2s after exiting it gradually for being in sneak/cloak for long periods of time.
A rework of the whole thing as i sugested isn´t likely.

Oh you could most certainly instant kill people in DAOC from stealth almost even after buffbots, one of the more fun characters I played was a tank minstrel in a two man stealth group. My Infil teammate would gib other stealthers all the time who went for me. Granted you weren’t going to kill anything past another stealthers or caster. Also scouts were quite nasty at one point but the main worry you had with them was the sheer number of them in some areas.

Rift had instant killing; *** it had instant killing from even non stealth classes.

Gw2 you could instant kill with Mesmer and thief quite easily.

Warhammer didn’t have the openers that instant killed but a proper witch elf and witch hunter could kill you extremely quick when coming out of stealth... then again that game had bright wizards... so yea...

Swtor has some high damage stealth openers and you could die super quick from those classes... it also had pyro powertechs as well... so yea....

Basically all these games had stealthers with super nasty openers and also other classes that were equally stupid to fight against... and you can’t say stealth should work the same way as other games.. (though I personally would love it to work similar to DAOC)

But even taking the DAOC comparison... yes you can stealth in combat in this game... but a caster can face tank multiple people with shields also.. if you were a DAOC caster and you got one person on ya you were screwed unless you were something like a life rapper or a BD.

Read again what i wrote.
Most of these games either didn´t have permanent sneak or infinte instant restealth or high openers from sneak. There was no game that had all 3.

I also have way less of an issue with setup instantkills (aka backloaded burst) from non stealth classes - atleast if they´re avoidable. Pyro PT was a special case as was the warrior class in rift in the beginning (but that one got nerfed pretty quick aswell) - I vehemently argued against these aswell as unavoidable faceroll instakills are stupid.
I played a caster solo quite a bit in daoc. Can´t remember getting instantkilled by a single stealther. DAoC even offered counterplay to positional stealth openers.

I´m also against shieldstacking. Justifying one bad mechanic with the existance of another bad mechanic isn´t an argument. Two times stupid does not make genius. It´s just double the amount of stupid in the game.

Closest thing to Infiniti stealth would be GW2, in combat you could basically do it all day long. While not all games could have it they all differed in mechanics. So you can’t really get rid of perma stealth on nightblade in this game without changing how the game plays. My personal suggestion is making shadowy disguise not apply Crits to heals as that’s OP imo.

Pyro powertechs were insane as someone who played one. I remember running with another 3 pyros in warzones fighting actual 8 man republic groups and wiping their whole team in like zero seconds. *** I remember instant killing a commando healer who was rank 90 and being guarded by a guardian Jedi, all four of us straight up killed the commando and the guardian through it.

As for rift; that game had more instant killing from more classes then I’ve seen in a game yet.

Mages could instant kill with pyros at one point; warcaller (warlock/stormcaller) could kill whole groups in seconds and *** a last gasp necro could straight up kill you with zero chance of surviving if a single bard was in your war zone. It wasn’t instant death but it was guaranteed death back then, took like 8 seconds but your ass was not going to live.

Oh dominator; there’s a class that could cast two spells and entire zergs would die in seconds.

None of these were stealth classes but most were freakin ranged which was probably equally as bad.

But yea I agree there is things wrong with NB in this game but I think it’s more the fact they can almost instantly heal when going into stealth for a split second.

Remove that auto crit for heals and they would be balanced more. Also flare could use a buff... it’s to freakin slow to land.

killimandrosb16_ESO · March 2018

there is no auto crit for heals-There, I fixed it for you. Can you now play the game?

usmcjdking · March 2018

I think this video actually showcases what a ganker should be doing.

OP is going around, into legit zergs by himself and popping people like bad pimples for most of it. He isn't sitting in stealth snipe spamming solo/small group players.

Biro123 · March 2018

I mostly play a sorc. A sorc with a build that focuses on quite large shields. A sorc which has quite low health, light armour and not much impen at all. It also doesn' t have a ton of sustain

I don't mind getting killed by a well-done gank, and accept it as a weakness of my build. I cannot keep spamming shields while not in combat 'just in case' - I'm not built to sustain that - and I'm fine with that.

Getting 1-shotted while unshielded by somebody whose whole build is focussed on that burst (and so has its own weaknesses) - and who still has to be skilled enough to execute it properly is much, much more preferable to getting kllled by someone who slaps on shieldbreaker and spams light-attacks from behind their zerg.

I much prefer the current incarnation of bowtards!

Volsers · March 2018

@killimandrosb16_ESO I agree with pretty much all that you say, your post says it all really.

Its easy to think that this playstyle is easy and from what I show in the videos I can agree on that it may look broken, but believe me when I say it... It is at least not easy at all. I only show the good stuff, If you make one mistake/if something goes wrong your chances of survival is halved... and... a lot of stuff can easily go wrong. Even though you die less the more familiar you get with the playstyle it always is really high risk vs high reward, which a lot of people do not seem to get.

Sugaroverdose · March 2018

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

Get outta here with that broken snipe

He doesn't actually exploit it's brokenness, so it's pretty awesome vid)

Dorrino · March 2018

Basically what @Derra said.

One-shots from visible opponents are tolerable.

One-shots from invisible opponents with a highly visible telegraph are tolerable as well.

One-shots from invisible opponents with invisible telegraphs or telegraphs that don't provide sufficient time to react (0.5 - 1 sec, taking in account the lag) are not.

If the later is effective there's no reason to play anything other that these builds. Or overly tanky builds those mitigation is out of the range of the damage potential of the one-shot builds.

It's a pure 'unstoppable force' question.

You generally try not to have one in your games for everybody to have fun. Or you make a very peculiar game system when everything is a one-shot. Like, for example, Counter-Strike.

DDuke · March 2018

Dorrino wrote: »

Basically what @Derra said.

One-shots from visible opponents are tolerable.

One-shots from invisible opponents with a highly visible telegraph are tolerable as well.

One-shots from invisible opponents with invisible telegraphs or telegraphs that don't provide sufficient time to react (0.5 - 1 sec, taking in account the lag) are not.

If the later is effective there's no reason to play anything other that these builds. Or overly tanky builds those mitigation is out of the range of the damage potential of the one-shot builds.

It's a pure 'unstoppable force' question.

You generally try not to have one in your games for everybody to have fun. Or you make a very peculiar game system when everything is a one-shot. Like, for example, Counter-Strike.

Better than the alternative of having zero stealth oriented playstyles, but I believe we've had this conversation before

I'll be happy the day they bring alternative ways to play effectively with stealth (and/or bow builds), but until then I'd play (and fight against) these types of builds any day over the meta rollerblades, which are really the only competitive alternative. People now have another option with the API changes.

Atleast landing the Asylum bow combo requires aiming (bombard), timing, positioning & game knowledge in selecting targets you can kill with it, it's not just about one shotting anyone you see. I feel that's about as balanced as stealth burst can get.

Dorrino · March 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Basically what @Derra said.

One-shots from visible opponents are tolerable.

One-shots from invisible opponents with a highly visible telegraph are tolerable as well.

One-shots from invisible opponents with invisible telegraphs or telegraphs that don't provide sufficient time to react (0.5 - 1 sec, taking in account the lag) are not.

If the later is effective there's no reason to play anything other that these builds. Or overly tanky builds those mitigation is out of the range of the damage potential of the one-shot builds.

It's a pure 'unstoppable force' question.

You generally try not to have one in your games for everybody to have fun. Or you make a very peculiar game system when everything is a one-shot. Like, for example, Counter-Strike.

Better than the alternative of having zero stealth oriented playstyles, but I believe we've had this conversation before

I'll be happy the day they bring alternative ways to play effectively with stealth (and/or bow builds), but until then I'd play (and fight against) these types of builds any day over the meta rollerblades, which are really the only competitive alternative. People now have another option with the API changes.

Atleast landing the Asylum bow combo requires aiming (bombard), timing, positioning & game knowledge in selecting targets you can kill with it, it's not just about one shotting anyone you see. I feel that's about as balanced as stealth burst can get.

I'd gladly accept a system without any artificial invisibility mechanics than the one that takes it to these levels.

People's perception is already limited by multitudes of factors that can be utilized.

Taking it to extreeme levels only promotes low effort gameplay and decrease of controlled pvp behavior. I.e. luck.

Some people prefer luck as a way of overcoming other people's efforts. Some people prefer a high skill cap system where the outcome depends on their skill level.

I'm in the later 'camp'.

If i can't control the outcome of an encounter (nor have realistic means of obtaining this control) i don't participate in the said encounter.

Luck-based systems are detrimental to both the learning process and to accepting personal responsibility of the result.

'Why did i lose? I got unlicky. Or well, nothing to learn here. Wasn't my fault'.

kadar · March 2018

If i can't control the outcome of an encounter (nor have realistic means of obtaining this control) i don't participate in the said encounter. i code an addon that changes my environment to my own liking.

In all seriousness tho, I agree with you on that point. Some measure of RNG will always exist, and it's fun. I can't think of any fun games with zero RNG. But lets not make that a center point of this game.

#nerfprocsets
#waitno
#keepprocsetsnerfed

Sort of related: a low TTK system will always be more fun than a high TTK system in a game like ESO.

Dorrino · March 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

In all seriousness tho, I agree with you on that point. Some measure of RNG will always exist, and it's fun. I can't think of any fun games with zero RNG. But lets not make that a center point of this game.

Sort of related: a low TTK system will always be more fun than a high TTK system in a game like ESO.

I agree with both these points.

As long as the overall outcome can be realistically controlled.

'He got lucky with a rare crit chain and took 70% of my health' - is both fine and fun.

'He has a reasonable expectation to take me from 100% to 0%' is not.

kadar · March 2018

Dorrino wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

In all seriousness tho, I agree with you on that point. Some measure of RNG will always exist, and it's fun. I can't think of any fun games with zero RNG. But lets not make that a center point of this game.

Sort of related: a low TTK system will always be more fun than a high TTK system in a game like ESO.

I agree with both these points.

As long as the overall outcome can be realistically controlled.

'He got lucky with a rare crit chain and took 70% of my health' - is both fine and fun.

'He has a reasonable expectation to take me from 100% to 0%' is not.

Agreed again. Luckily, I don't think this is the place the game is at right now/yet. It's been a looooong time since a solo ganker took me below 25% health before I could react. In a perfect storm DDuke probably could, but in a practical sense, it doesn't happen.

Reality is more like you get simul-ganked by 2+ Nbs and a Soul Assault opener that drops you to 10%, you hit Vigor/roll/Cloak/Rally and proceed to 1v3. I seen you play.

DDuke · March 2018

I think it's worth noting that the Lethal Arrow isn't guaranteed to crit even if combo is done from sneak or crit cloak, as Bombard/Light Attack are the first things to land (and consume the "guaranteed crit"). It's always a 50/50 (well, with 50% crit chance atleast).

Atleast the non-crit hits are 5-digits too with this build, so it doesn't feel too bad ^^

Sugaroverdose · March 2018

[Edited to remove quote]

There's actually almost zero rng, main crit damage is guaranteed by cloak, as well as stun.

It's good combination of skill and build theory crafting, nothing else.

Derra · March 2018

[Edited to remove quote]

The problem is not if it takes skill or not.
The addon (as far as i understand it) was invented because the pvp experience at that time was not fun for the victims of stealth attacks.

You´re playing with other people. They want to have fun and display skill too. That can not happen if your idea of fun revolves around denying participation for your opponent by instantly killing them from invisibility (when that invisibility is a state that can be maintained 100% of the time and instantly reentered by an ability).

zyk · March 2018

The only time I've ever felt stealth/invis was broken was with Camo Hunter in 2.2. I know some may laugh because I main a nb, but I've played without cloak on nb and alts more than I've played with it the past couple of years.

Cloak is also what I place the lowest priority on countering in most of my builds.

I've never used Miat's addon and I feel I've survived the vast majority of gank attempts. Usually it only happens when I'm typing (karma for ranting in zone chat).

I love travelling between a yellow Nikel and Blue ash knowing the path ahead is laden with gankers. It's fun to avoid and counter them. I like helping random teammates survive ganks.

Apparently the nerf of Miat's addon has resulted in a lot of touched nerves. That's not the case with everyone, of course. I know many have had a consistent and reasonable opinions about stealth mechanics for years. But I see nb nerf torches everywhere. I hope ZOS doesn't knee jerk nerf nbs. The open world is our house.

Dorrino · March 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

In all seriousness tho, I agree with you on that point. Some measure of RNG will always exist, and it's fun. I can't think of any fun games with zero RNG. But lets not make that a center point of this game.

Sort of related: a low TTK system will always be more fun than a high TTK system in a game like ESO.

I agree with both these points.

As long as the overall outcome can be realistically controlled.

'He got lucky with a rare crit chain and took 70% of my health' - is both fine and fun.

'He has a reasonable expectation to take me from 100% to 0%' is not.

Agreed again. Luckily, I don't think this is the place the game is at right now/yet. It's been a looooong time since a solo ganker took me below 25% health before I could react. In a perfect storm DDuke probably could, but in a practical sense, it doesn't happen.

Reality is more like you get simul-ganked by 2+ Nbs and a Soul Assault opener that drops you to 10%, you hit Vigor/roll/Cloak/Rally and proceed to 1v3. I seen you play.

Your description of my typical being ganked experience is correct:)

To the point.

I agree that unlike a year ago currently one-shots are for the most part preventable even in light/med.

Still the main part of the argument stands.

Not 'from 100% to 0%, but say from ''80% to 0%".

These are 'quasi-oneshots'. Solo in the mid of nowhere you can survive those.

In a typical cyro fight - you have a problem. I'm not even talking about 1vx. Just a random dot/light attack can turn this into a one-shot.

And the problem is you, as the target, can't plan around those in any practical situation.

If you 1v3 some people - you can have a plan.

If you 1v3 some people and our 'quasi-oneshot assassin' joins - you can only rely on luck - i.e. nothing. If they connect, for all intents and purposes it might be a one-shot for you.

And this unfortunate outcome happens not because of your lack of skill, not because of their presence of skill and not because of your or their gearing choices. It might happen solely because they were invisible all the way.

This last part is the problem. Not the bow. Not the gears. Not even glitching and missing telegraphs. You can predict those.

Only because they are invisible from the start. And because their attack was undetectable as well.

My addon solved that last problem. You still couldn't see them joining the fight. But in most cases you could see their attacks against you. I.e. it provided the telegraphs the game was missing otherwise.

As soon as this part was removed - within a month cyro is full with nightblades of all varieties. Complain threads and boasting threads are coming up left and right. Only because some telegraphs are not visible again.

kadar · March 2018

Still the main part of the argument stands. Not 'from 100% to 0%, but say from ''80% to 0%".

In a typical cyro fight - you have a problem. I'm not even talking about 1vx. Just a random dot/light attack can turn this into a one-shot.

And the problem is you, as the target, can't plan around those in any practical situation.

If you 1v3 some people and our 'quasi-oneshot assassin' joins - you can only rely on luck - i.e. nothing. If they connect, for all intents and purposes it might be a one-shot for you.

And this unfortunate outcome happens not because of your lack of skill, not because of their presence of skill and not because of your or their gearing choices. It might happen solely because they were invisible all the way.
.

Right, it's the same argument from when PVP Alerts first came out.

If I'm fighting 1v3 and a fourth competent player of any build joins, it means I die. If it's a skilled player, it means I certainly die. At least with a stealth-ganker of = to or greater skill level, they still have to roll the dice to kill me.

The reason I'm okay with the situation you described above, is because I'm not willing to remove stealth combat from ESO to grant myself control of that situation-- to make sure that everything happening around me is a part of my plan. I don't feel the need for that, and I don't think it's fun.

^There's tons of reasons for this opinion, the forums can go back and forth all day (and it has). My point is, the reason this argument won't end with one side convincing the other, is that it boils down to a difference of opinion.

(edit: my best evidence of this^: the community remains divided for the duration PVP alerts functions, ZOS steps in and makes the decision for us by changing the API, effectively making their stance clear)

Dorrino · March 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

Still the main part of the argument stands. Not 'from 100% to 0%, but say from ''80% to 0%".

In a typical cyro fight - you have a problem. I'm not even talking about 1vx. Just a random dot/light attack can turn this into a one-shot.

And the problem is you, as the target, can't plan around those in any practical situation.

If you 1v3 some people and our 'quasi-oneshot assassin' joins - you can only rely on luck - i.e. nothing. If they connect, for all intents and purposes it might be a one-shot for you.

And this unfortunate outcome happens not because of your lack of skill, not because of their presence of skill and not because of your or their gearing choices. It might happen solely because they were invisible all the way.
.

Right, it's the same argument from when PVP Alerts first came out.

If I'm fighting 1v3 and a fourth competent player of any build joins, it means I die. If it's a skilled player, it means I certainly die. At least with a stealth-ganker of = to or greater skill level, they still have to roll the dice to kill me.

The reason I'm okay with the situation you described above, is because I'm not willing to remove stealth combat from ESO to grant myself control of that situation-- to make sure that everything happening around me is a part of my plan. I don't feel the need for that, and I don't think it's fun.

^There's tons of reasons for this opinion, the forums can go back and forth all day (and it has). My point is, the reason this argument won't end with one side convincing the other, is that it boils down to a difference of opinion.

(edit: my best evidence of this^: the community remains divided for the duration PVP alerts functions, ZOS steps in and makes the decision for us by changing the API, effectively making their stance clear)

The thing is you die and i don’t. Doesn’t matter the build or skill level of the 4th.

Unless it’s our ‘stealthed assassin’ who got lucky.

If the game’s system promotes luck as a valid driver of an open world encounter - i find this system detrimental for learning experience (because it makes players powerless on the individual level) and promoting toxicity in the community.

Again, the problem is not in stealth per se. It’s tge combination of systems that leads to over the top power of unpreventable split second damage from stealth.

Huge damage from a visible source is fine.

Telegraphed huge damage from an invisible source is fine, as my addon demonstrated.

There’s no problem with stealth if it doesn’t provide an easy to use opportunity of unmitigatable burst.

This was my point back in the days. This is my point now.

I don’t care about notifications. I don’t care about invisible people. I only care about invisible burst from invisible people.

As simple as that.

DDuke · March 2018

Here's a TLDR:

Dorrino wrote: »

I don't like getting ganked.

One thing they could change about stealth though would be giving visual cues to stealthed targets (e.g. "Predator" style shimmering stealth, footprints or something), that'd allow people to spot gankers if they paid careful attention to their surroundings. That'd get rid of a lot of the complaints I believe.

In return ZOS could tone down Piercing Mark significantly, because that's just overperforming vs stealth builds currently.

...but who am I kidding, it's too late for ZOS to change such core mechanics.
What we've got is what we've got & one has to work with the tools provided. Currently there aren't ways to competitively play stealth oriented builds (or bow builds even) without the overwhelming burst from stealth.

...and quite frankly, anything that isn't yet another rollerblade is a welcome sight in Cyrodiil if you asked me.

Dorrino · March 2018

Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.

That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.

Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?

We participate in a competitive environment and provide fun for each other, by winning and losing the fights.

For the fun to happen we need the fights to happen.

How exactly people can have fun by being forced to lose without a fight?

Skander · March 2018

Should this exist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshkO8HqQ10

Skander · March 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Here's a TLDR:

Dorrino wrote: »

I don't like getting ganked.

One thing they could change about stealth though would be giving visual cues to stealthed targets (e.g. "Predator" style shimmering stealth, footprints or something), that'd allow people to spot gankers if they paid careful attention to their surroundings. That'd get rid of a lot of the complaints I believe.

In return ZOS could tone down Piercing Mark significantly, because that's just overperforming vs stealth builds currently.

...but who am I kidding, it's too late for ZOS to change such core mechanics.
What we've got is what we've got & one has to work with the tools provided. Currently there aren't ways to competitively play stealth oriented builds (or bow builds even) without the overwhelming burst from stealth.

...and quite frankly, anything that isn't yet another rollerblade is a welcome sight in Cyrodiil if you asked me.

Errand knight, bleur, heavy stamblade with S&B. With healing theater morph.

Tryy iiiitt

DDuke · March 2018

Dorrino wrote: »

Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.

That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.

Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?

Not really.

Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.

People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.

Sugaroverdose · March 2018

Derra wrote: »

[Edited to remove quote]

The problem is not if it takes skill or not.
The addon (as far as i understand it) was invented because the pvp experience at that time was not fun for the victims of stealth attacks.

You´re playing with other people. They want to have fun and display skill too. That can not happen if your idea of fun revolves around denying participation for your opponent by instantly killing them from invisibility (when that invisibility is a state that can be maintained 100% of the time and instantly reentered by an ability).

Meh, in 1.6 there was no safe corner without gankers and i personally would like to return to those times, except horrible lags during allesiafest

Dorrino wrote: »

Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.

That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.

Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?

We participate in a competitive environment and provide fun for each other, by winning and losing the fights.

For the fun to happen we need the fights to happen.

How exactly people can have fun by being forced to lose without a fight?

When you face stamina warden/dk/sorc on magicka dk and he does know how to play, you have almost zero chance, but gankers at least does not spend your time.

Dorrino · March 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.

That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.

Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?

Not really.

Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.

People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.

So you prefer to die without a fight to dying to somebody you can get good enough to best?

Isn't it a case of 'i refuse to learn to fight, so i i'd rather accept that learning is impossible?'

What is your reasoning behind refusing to learn to kill 'dodge roll spammers' (how dodge rolling actually kills you?) or 'meta dueling builds'?

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

When you face stamina warden/dk/sorc on magicka dk and he does know how to play, you have almost zero chance, but gankers at least does not spend your time.

All of them are winnable on a stamblade. Stam wardens being the easiest, because all their burst is easily avoidable.

Derra · March 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.

That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.

Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?

Not really.

Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.

People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.

ok honest question:

how do you tell if someone instantly killing you from sneak is skilled? Because they crafted a build that is capable of instagibbing you?
The execution is not hard. It literally took me 15 minutes buying hawkseye + equipping the stuff with perfected asylum bow until i onshot my first enemy from stealth.

The only display of skill when instakilling is arguably doing that to multiple people in a row while outmaneuvering them. This however is absolutely irrelevant from a 1v1 and fight participation perspective.

I can tell for almost all duels / 1v1s if i´m loosing to a player more skilled than i am or to a build that´s just countering mine very well. Usually i can draw the latter - but that´s not a possibility on stam vs befoul so i get these will be frustrating.
I honestly can´t tell when i´m getting instakilled. I can´t even tell where there is supposed to be skill involved when doing it myself.