Rise Of A Bowtard - Bow/Bow ganker [Video]

zyk

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt we see in this thread exists in *every* game with snipers.

kyle.wilson

Every NB that spams snipe on me gets t-bagged after I kill them.



Having another player stunning them makes you an even more pathetic player.

Derra

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

zyk

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

I'm not digging through interviews from 2014 right now. Fun is subjective. To some, crouching in a tree and sniping is fun. To others, it might be killing with siege. Both are fine in ESO.

I think it's good to debate the pros and cons of all systems and play styles in ESO, but I'm editing this post because I try not to have contentious discussions in video threads.

Derra

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

I'm not digging through interviews from 2014 right now. Fun is subjective. To some, crouching in a tree and sniping is fun. To others, it might be killing with siege. Both are fine in ESO.

ESO PVP is designed to facilitate many different playstyles including ambushing and ganking. It's obvious. Some people just don't like that.

For the record, I'm not even into ganking. I'll take ganks of opportunity or use it as a tool when disrupting a group, but I'm usually more of a brawler. However, I like what ganking adds to games like ESO. They force players to watch their steps and to think before acting. I play ESO PVP (in theory) because it's so dynamic and there are so many factors to consider when alone in the open world.

As i´ve said. Fun in a game should ideally involve both parties.

A form of gameplay that by design eliminates any chance for participation for 50% of the involved players can´t be fun for these.

I´m not against ambushing and ganking per se. I´m against untelegraphed instant kills from invisibility. Which does not equal stealth/ambush/sneak gameplay.

danno8

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was about to write pretty much the same thing.

Stealth in every other MMO I have played is used to provide an Alpha Strike, to put your opponent on their back heels and give you the opportunity to maintain that advantage for the whole fight. The stealther, being naturally squishy, required that big damage up front to even the odds in the fight that is to follow.

But in ESO, a good stealther will kill you before you even have time to react. IMO, this is not as good gameplay, but it's just how ESO works.

DDuke

danno8 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was about to write pretty much the same thing.

Stealth in every other MMO I have played is used to provide an Alpha Strike, to put your opponent on their back heels and give you the opportunity to maintain that advantage for the whole fight. The stealther, being naturally squishy, required that big damage up front to even the odds in the fight that is to follow.

But in ESO, a good stealther will kill you before you even have time to react. IMO, this is not as good gameplay, but it's just how ESO works.

You know, you're right. Unfortunately it's currently also the only way a stealther can work in ESO: if you don't instantly kill people from stealth they simply "reset the fight" by stacking shields or holding block & healing back to full (or in case of bow builds, people can just dodge roll for what are essentially "iframes" as every bow skill is dodgeable).

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

Lexxypwns

@Derra have you considered that to counter gankblades you can just be a gankblade? If you don’t leave stealth you can’t be ganked.

That’s balance

Derra

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Derra have you considered that to counter gankblades you can just be a gankblade? If you don’t leave stealth you can’t be ganked.

That’s balance

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

100% agree which is why i say i´m just unhappy with how lazy and unimaginative stealthgameplay is implemented in eso - numerous games have done it better in a way that allowed for more fun interactions than instantkills are.

Subversus

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

100% agree which is why i say i´m just unhappy with how lazy and unimaginative stealthgameplay is implemented in eso - numerous games have done it better in a way that allowed for more fun interactions than instantkills are.

I agree that stealthing is terribly designed in eso, but with the no cooldown system eso is enforcing I can’t think of any way to improve it. Other than nerf batting it and just increasing the cost like with streak or w/e, of course.

At this point though, a gradual cost increase wouldn’t even be that bad though. We already have the sneak system which allows you to be stealthy if you want. I wish cloak would just work as a one time combat break that costs say 10k mag and makes you immune to literally everything, cloaking you for 4-5 seconds.

danno8

DDuke wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was about to write pretty much the same thing.

Stealth in every other MMO I have played is used to provide an Alpha Strike, to put your opponent on their back heels and give you the opportunity to maintain that advantage for the whole fight. The stealther, being naturally squishy, required that big damage up front to even the odds in the fight that is to follow.

But in ESO, a good stealther will kill you before you even have time to react. IMO, this is not as good gameplay, but it's just how ESO works.

You know, you're right. Unfortunately it's currently also the only way a stealther can work in ESO: if you don't instantly kill people from stealth they simply "reset the fight" by stacking shields or holding block & healing back to full (or in case of bow builds, people can just dodge roll for what are essentially "iframes" as every bow skill is dodgeable).

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

Oh yeah, my initial write up talked all about how OP healing is on every class, ping-pong health bars and the lack of CD's that make resetting the fight over and over again an easy endeavor along with examples, but I shortened it to "just the way it is" for easy readability, lol.

danno8

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

100% agree which is why i say i´m just unhappy with how lazy and unimaginative stealthgameplay is implemented in eso - numerous games have done it better in a way that allowed for more fun interactions than instantkills are.

I agree that stealthing is terribly designed in eso, but with the no cooldown system eso is enforcing I can’t think of any way to improve it. Other than nerf batting it and just increasing the cost like with streak or w/e, of course.

At this point though, a gradual cost increase wouldn’t even be that bad though. We already have the sneak system which allows you to be stealthy if you want. I wish cloak would just work as a one time combat break that costs say 10k mag and makes you immune to literally everything, cloaking you for 4-5 seconds.

I always liked the GW2 stealth system. You can stealth as much as you want (assuming you have the means), but the moment you cause damage from stealth you are revealed for 5 seconds and have to wait it out in order to be able to stealth again.

I liked that it offered windows of counter-play, it felt fair even if you got crushed. Don't think it would work here, but it's an example of a better-thought-out system.

Subversus

danno8 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

100% agree which is why i say i´m just unhappy with how lazy and unimaginative stealthgameplay is implemented in eso - numerous games have done it better in a way that allowed for more fun interactions than instantkills are.

I agree that stealthing is terribly designed in eso, but with the no cooldown system eso is enforcing I can’t think of any way to improve it. Other than nerf batting it and just increasing the cost like with streak or w/e, of course.

At this point though, a gradual cost increase wouldn’t even be that bad though. We already have the sneak system which allows you to be stealthy if you want. I wish cloak would just work as a one time combat break that costs say 10k mag and makes you immune to literally everything, cloaking you for 4-5 seconds.

I always liked the GW2 stealth system. You can stealth as much as you want (assuming you have the means), but the moment you cause damage from stealth you are revealed for 5 seconds and have to wait it out in order to be able to stealth again.

I liked that it offered windows of counter-play, it felt fair even if you got crushed. Don't think it would work here, but it's an example of a better-thought-out system.

I like the SWTOR stealth system. You can stealth in and out whenever if out of combat, but in combat you have a cloak (on stealth classes only) that has a 1 minute cooldown.

Now that wouldn’t work on eso, but something like that would be nice too.

I like what you said as well, but it could be easily worked around. Instead of attacking from cloak people would just wait until cloak ends and attack then.

kadar

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@amir412
I guess both of you were ganked by him .

I don't even recognize any of his displayed characters. This playstyle resembles a lot of what is wrong with eso and its players. He is not playing for the good fight but for avoiding a good fight. That's what I find disgusting about it.

In a highly structured game like a boxing match, that would be a valid point, but not in open world AvA which is supposed to be highly dynamic with a variety of styles. In pre-launch interviews ZOS devs described gameplay like what's in the video.

Please source me where the devs described dying in one gcd from a sneaking opponent.

I think this is something that has no place in an mmo. Any fight even initiated from sneak/stealth should offer possibilities for all involved players to participate.
If the only chance of participation is releasing at the nearest keep somethings off.

It´s a game. The ideal is for all participants in a player versus player interaction is to have fun reguardless of the outcome of the fight imo.
All those people comparing it to real life warfare need to seriously check their priorities.

His point is that ESO was meant to be filled with many kinds of play styles. Tanks, mages, warriors, assassins. Not every play style guarantees a straight up, mano-y-mano, honorable fight to the death. That's not what ESO is.

I follow that it's the opinion of some that 1 shots should not be possible, but the reason they will likely always be a thing, is that the opposite opinion also exists. I think ganking is fun, and I also enjoy fighting against gankers, for example. In my opinion, slow paced, high TTK combat is hella boring.

Since beta, there have been very few times where I've been ganked with zero chance at counterplay-- and even then, the fault was often mine. Let buffs fall off, ./map, afk, ect. Smiff has def got me once or twice. The correct reaction in that scenario, IMO, is to ./slowclap, release, and try to hunt down the ***.

Lexxypwns

@Derra no stop it, there’s so much depth!

Not only can you not be ganked while you’re in stealth you can also get mark and gank other gankblades!

The_Protagonist

@Volsers Really nice playstyle! +1

I can see that you are using an Asylum Bow and Skoria, what other sets are you running? Would love to try your build!

Derra

Subversus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

In order for stealth to be beneficial outside overwhelming burst, there would have to be special long term effects & benefits for engaging from stealth and/or specific effects on skills for using stealth (think Surprise Attack, but wider variety of effects on different skills ranging from special DoTs to armor debuffs etc etc).

That's how stealth works in those other games (where you also can actually utilize CC effectively & it doesn't just get broken instantly every time as there are cooldowns on CC breaks).


Until then, we're stuck with stealth as it is (or alternatively with completely unviable stealth builds, if they were to fail to perform that overwhelming burst).

Alas, this topic deserves a thread of its own I think :P

100% agree which is why i say i´m just unhappy with how lazy and unimaginative stealthgameplay is implemented in eso - numerous games have done it better in a way that allowed for more fun interactions than instantkills are.

I agree that stealthing is terribly designed in eso, but with the no cooldown system eso is enforcing I can’t think of any way to improve it. Other than nerf batting it and just increasing the cost like with streak or w/e, of course.

At this point though, a gradual cost increase wouldn’t even be that bad though. We already have the sneak system which allows you to be stealthy if you want. I wish cloak would just work as a one time combat break that costs say 10k mag and makes you immune to literally everything, cloaking you for 4-5 seconds.

I´d love to see unpurgeable debuffs as stealth openers.
Preferably different ones depending on weapontype used allowing to further diversify.

I think warhammer online did it best in that regard - limited time stealth and different openers:
Opponent would dmg themself for moving.
Short silence.
Opponent would dmg themself for casting heals.
In eso you can add snare, root healdebuff etc.

Rowjoh

Really refreshing to see something different!

Nice antidote to all those tedious kangaroo bouncing 'chase me! chase me!' sorc vids.

danno8

Subversus wrote: »

I like what you said as well, but it could be easily worked around. Instead of attacking from cloak people would just wait until cloak ends and attack then.

The catch is/was that you don't get the crit hit if you wait until stealth expires.

But yah, in this game it doesn't work since you can use other forms of guaranteed crits from stealth.

Volsers

The_Protagonist wrote: »

@Volsers Really nice playstyle! +1

I can see that you are using an Asylum Bow and Skoria, what other sets are you running? Would love to try your build!

Thanks! I am actually not using Skoria, hmm but could be interesting though!
I linked the original build in the description of the video on Youtube, if you want to check it out

Shardan4968

When I know that there are gankers between keeps, I just "sneak" past them ("sneak", because thanks to night's silence I actually run past them). I never felt bad after being instakilled (which happened maybe twice in my life, thanks to night's silence ). I think that this playstyle is quite funny and it's obvious that If ganker like this would be marked, you could kill him/her in few/less seconds or he/she would just flee (atleast that's what happen when I mark them). For example in 2:15 you would meet terrible fate If your friend didn't give you damage shields. So I don't feel bad for being killed by them, we are not samurai to have bushido or other code of honor. We just want to kill! Yes, many people don't want to be sniped, but that's just my opinion and I don't even use snipe (yet), I usually just gank gankers trying to gank my EP fellows. I just appreciate no salt and many for and from my enemies. Unless I want salt, cuz it's funny.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was going to say something about DAOC before you said anything; you could instant kill someone in that game and remain in stealth lol

As for other games with almost instant killing from stealth

Rift, GW2, even WoW and to some extent Warhammer Online.

I honestly have more issue with *** like earthgore or stamwarden zergs

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was going to say something about DAOC before you said anything; you could instant kill someone in that game and remain in stealth lol

As for other games with almost instant killing from stealth

Rift, GW2, even WoW and to some extent Warhammer Online.

I honestly have more issue with *** like earthgore or stamwarden zergs

Never played wow past lvl 20sth.

Rift, GW2 i´ve never faced it to the same extend.
Daoc didn´t have instantkills anymore after buffbots became common and before only shadowblades with 2h would instagib you (eso had that too) - i solod quite a bit on runemaster after SI release up to quitting the game. Also positional melee styles. I´ve never died to an archer instantly in daoc.
Swtor got rid of it quickly.
AoC got rid of it even quicker.
Warhammer had a different stealth system and didn´t have instantkills to the same extend.

The problem i have with eso is that you have unlimited amounts of time in sneak combined with high alpha strike dmg + unhindered ability to reset the fight.
Every other game had a maximum of two of these - and still adressed high alphastrike from stealth most of the times.
Either you didn´t have unlimited stealthtime.
You didn´t have high dmg (but debuffs) or you couldn´t return to sneak easily.
It´s the combination of all three that i disagree with.

The easiest solution for eso would imo be to simply get rid of permanent invisibility - as it would require the least amount of work.
If you don´t want that reduce the dmg done from sneak/cloak and 2s after exiting it gradually for being in sneak/cloak for long periods of time.
A rework of the whole thing as i sugested isn´t likely.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was going to say something about DAOC before you said anything; you could instant kill someone in that game and remain in stealth lol

As for other games with almost instant killing from stealth

Rift, GW2, even WoW and to some extent Warhammer Online.

I honestly have more issue with *** like earthgore or stamwarden zergs

Never played wow past lvl 20sth.

Rift, GW2 i´ve never faced it to the same extend.
Daoc didn´t have instantkills anymore after buffbots became common and before only shadowblades with 2h would instagib you (eso had that too) - i solod quite a bit on runemaster after SI release up to quitting the game. Also positional melee styles. I´ve never died to an archer instantly in daoc.
Swtor got rid of it quickly.
AoC got rid of it even quicker.
Warhammer had a different stealth system and didn´t have instantkills to the same extend.

The problem i have with eso is that you have unlimited amounts of time in sneak combined with high alpha strike dmg + unhindered ability to reset the fight.
Every other game had a maximum of two of these - and still adressed high alphastrike from stealth most of the times.
Either you didn´t have unlimited stealthtime.
You didn´t have high dmg (but debuffs) or you couldn´t return to sneak easily.
It´s the combination of all three that i disagree with.

The easiest solution for eso would imo be to simply get rid of permanent invisibility - as it would require the least amount of work.
If you don´t want that reduce the dmg done from sneak/cloak and 2s after exiting it gradually for being in sneak/cloak for long periods of time.
A rework of the whole thing as i sugested isn´t likely.

Oh you could most certainly instant kill people in DAOC from stealth almost even after buffbots, one of the more fun characters I played was a tank minstrel in a two man stealth group. My Infil teammate would gib other stealthers all the time who went for me. Granted you weren’t going to kill anything past another stealthers or caster. Also scouts were quite nasty at one point but the main worry you had with them was the sheer number of them in some areas.

Rift had instant killing; *** it had instant killing from even non stealth classes.

Gw2 you could instant kill with Mesmer and thief quite easily.

Warhammer didn’t have the openers that instant killed but a proper witch elf and witch hunter could kill you extremely quick when coming out of stealth... then again that game had bright wizards... so yea...

Swtor has some high damage stealth openers and you could die super quick from those classes... it also had pyro powertechs as well... so yea....

Basically all these games had stealthers with super nasty openers and also other classes that were equally stupid to fight against... and you can’t say stealth should work the same way as other games.. (though I personally would love it to work similar to DAOC)

But even taking the DAOC comparison... yes you can stealth in combat in this game... but a caster can face tank multiple people with shields also.. if you were a DAOC caster and you got one person on ya you were screwed unless you were something like a life rapper or a BD.

Maryal

Ganking is more of a sport than it is a fight. It reminds me of that carnival game where you shoot and knock down as many moving targets as possible to get the highest score.

Pvp (player verses player), on the other hand, involves fighting ... you know, where two or more people take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of blows with or without the use of weapons.

For some, the sport of ganking doesn't belong on a pvp battlefield where people go to siege and take over keeps/resources as well as fight each other in the process.

Subversus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was going to say something about DAOC before you said anything; you could instant kill someone in that game and remain in stealth lol

As for other games with almost instant killing from stealth

Rift, GW2, even WoW and to some extent Warhammer Online.

I honestly have more issue with *** like earthgore or stamwarden zergs

Never played wow past lvl 20sth.

Rift, GW2 i´ve never faced it to the same extend.
Daoc didn´t have instantkills anymore after buffbots became common and before only shadowblades with 2h would instagib you (eso had that too) - i solod quite a bit on runemaster after SI release up to quitting the game. Also positional melee styles. I´ve never died to an archer instantly in daoc.
Swtor got rid of it quickly.
AoC got rid of it even quicker.
Warhammer had a different stealth system and didn´t have instantkills to the same extend.

The problem i have with eso is that you have unlimited amounts of time in sneak combined with high alpha strike dmg + unhindered ability to reset the fight.
Every other game had a maximum of two of these - and still adressed high alphastrike from stealth most of the times.
Either you didn´t have unlimited stealthtime.
You didn´t have high dmg (but debuffs) or you couldn´t return to sneak easily.
It´s the combination of all three that i disagree with.

The easiest solution for eso would imo be to simply get rid of permanent invisibility - as it would require the least amount of work.
If you don´t want that reduce the dmg done from sneak/cloak and 2s after exiting it gradually for being in sneak/cloak for long periods of time.
A rework of the whole thing as i sugested isn´t likely.

Swtor never actually had this “instagib from stealth” thing that eso has/had though. Closest it’s ever been to this was at launch when operatives could 2/3 hit an enemy, but that’s 3/4.5 seconds of gameplay. It did have instagib mechanics though, only not specifically tied to stealth (looking at you, 3.0 AP powertechs >_<)

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

There was supposed to be sniping and ganking, yes. And if snipers and gankers don't have an opportunity to kill unprepared players quickly, then that play style might as well not exist.

The point of Snipe isn't to inform your opponent you're a gentleman looking for an honorable duel.

This salt exists in *every* game with snipers.

10/10 adressed none of my points and evaded my question by equaling stealth gameplay/sniping/ganking with instakills.

Edit: I´ll add that in all the mmos i´ve played that involved ganking/sniping/stealth gameplay since 2001 - the only other game that had isntantkills comparable to eso was DAoC in the very early years up to 2003 with buffed vs unbuffed players (prior to common occurance of buffbots).
Yet almost every other game had vaible and fun gank/stealth gameplay mechanics that didn´t rely on killing participation possibilities of the victim.
I think it´s lazy and bad design. Edit2: In combination with permanent stealth like eso has.

I was going to say something about DAOC before you said anything; you could instant kill someone in that game and remain in stealth lol

As for other games with almost instant killing from stealth

Rift, GW2, even WoW and to some extent Warhammer Online.

I honestly have more issue with *** like earthgore or stamwarden zergs

Never played wow past lvl 20sth.

Rift, GW2 i´ve never faced it to the same extend.
Daoc didn´t have instantkills anymore after buffbots became common and before only shadowblades with 2h would instagib you (eso had that too) - i solod quite a bit on runemaster after SI release up to quitting the game. Also positional melee styles. I´ve never died to an archer instantly in daoc.
Swtor got rid of it quickly.
AoC got rid of it even quicker.
Warhammer had a different stealth system and didn´t have instantkills to the same extend.

The problem i have with eso is that you have unlimited amounts of time in sneak combined with high alpha strike dmg + unhindered ability to reset the fight.
Every other game had a maximum of two of these - and still adressed high alphastrike from stealth most of the times.
Either you didn´t have unlimited stealthtime.
You didn´t have high dmg (but debuffs) or you couldn´t return to sneak easily.
It´s the combination of all three that i disagree with.

The easiest solution for eso would imo be to simply get rid of permanent invisibility - as it would require the least amount of work.
If you don´t want that reduce the dmg done from sneak/cloak and 2s after exiting it gradually for being in sneak/cloak for long periods of time.
A rework of the whole thing as i sugested isn´t likely.

Oh you could most certainly instant kill people in DAOC from stealth almost even after buffbots, one of the more fun characters I played was a tank minstrel in a two man stealth group. My Infil teammate would gib other stealthers all the time who went for me. Granted you weren’t going to kill anything past another stealthers or caster. Also scouts were quite nasty at one point but the main worry you had with them was the sheer number of them in some areas.

Rift had instant killing; *** it had instant killing from even non stealth classes.

Gw2 you could instant kill with Mesmer and thief quite easily.

Warhammer didn’t have the openers that instant killed but a proper witch elf and witch hunter could kill you extremely quick when coming out of stealth... then again that game had bright wizards... so yea...

Swtor has some high damage stealth openers and you could die super quick from those classes... it also had pyro powertechs as well... so yea....

Basically all these games had stealthers with super nasty openers and also other classes that were equally stupid to fight against... and you can’t say stealth should work the same way as other games.. (though I personally would love it to work similar to DAOC)

But even taking the DAOC comparison... yes you can stealth in combat in this game... but a caster can face tank multiple people with shields also.. if you were a DAOC caster and you got one person on ya you were screwed unless you were something like a life rapper or a BD.

Read again what i wrote.
Most of these games either didn´t have permanent sneak or infinte instant restealth or high openers from sneak. There was no game that had all 3.

I also have way less of an issue with setup instantkills (aka backloaded burst) from non stealth classes - atleast if they´re avoidable. Pyro PT was a special case as was the warrior class in rift in the beginning (but that one got nerfed pretty quick aswell) - I vehemently argued against these aswell as unavoidable faceroll instakills are stupid.
I played a caster solo quite a bit in daoc. Can´t remember getting instantkilled by a single stealther. DAoC even offered counterplay to positional stealth openers.

I´m also against shieldstacking. Justifying one bad mechanic with the existance of another bad mechanic isn´t an argument. Two times stupid does not make genius. It´s just double the amount of stupid in the game.

Azurya

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Every NB that spams snipe on me gets t-bagged after I kill them.



Having another player stunning them makes you an even more pathetic player.

always like to bomb t-bagging groups^^
keep it going!

killimandrosb16_ESO

this has derailed into the good old paper think stone is fine but wtf pls nref SCISSOR NAOW.

Instakilling anyone in ESO with a bow is probably one of the most difficult things to do in the game as it is now. Ill elaborate; In order to land the combo the OP is mostly using, it requires spray to hit before his snipe. His spray is at a distance which ALL classes, especially melee classes, love to have a medium bow player. He is vulnerable to almost anything. Then, to actually LAND that spray and THEN snipe,it has to pass the rng of dodging. If any of these two attacks miss or is dodged, its a fail, and guaranteed dead NB, unless the target is very, very bad. If both is dodged, its actually better. Noone dies from only one of the skills, or a double snipe for that sake.

Then, who can a player with this playstyle actually kill in one combo? Well, certainly notanyone with 25k+ health and HA. Neither the mage who has only one shield up. The templar wearing light armour is at risk. The best and typical target is another medium wearing class, meaning another NB. And to get a guaranteed combo hit on a NB in medium armour (none dodged), that NB is either out of stamina, standing at a siege or just afk.

So if we compare this combo and this threat to other roaming gankers, which one is the most effective? Bunnyjumping sorcs?, over the speed limit wardens?, unkillable tanks? Well, basically anyone competent enough to roam around solo trying to get a 1vx. Where does the bow-roamer stand? Personally on all my classes, Ill take the NB with a bow ANY day any situation, because it ususally is nothing more than an easy target.

Now why do so many run around with this combo then? Because it seems like a safe bet for many new players or players having problems competing with other classes and combos. Its relatively safe and can score a new player some kills from walls, from behind the zerg or just from trying to move aroun d without getting killed too much. That doesnt mean its the most effective. It means its the first pick for players who arent aware of the weaknesses of the style, or who find it difficult to handle the playstyle of the other classes. You get a hit or two on other players targets, giving you some ap. Thats about it. The competent or threatening nb's with bow can probably be counted on your fingers, and if you use your toes too thats about it.

So to sum up, this video is quite rare, because it shows a real competent bow-user in action. I personally find it very intriguing and I applaud the challenge he has decided to take. Not only is he a competent player, he has also taken it upon himself to prove his worth making a 1vx video with arguably the weakest 1vx class currently in cyrodiil. Well played OP.