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Rise Of A Bowtard - Bow/Bow ganker [Video]
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killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.
That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.
Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?
Not really.
Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.
People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.
ok honest question:
how do you tell if someone instantly killing you from sneak is skilled? Because they crafted a build that is capable of instagibbing you?
The execution is not hard. It literally took me 15 minutes buying hawkseye + equipping the stuff with perfected asylum bow until i onshot my first enemy from stealth.
The only display of skill when instakilling is arguably doing that to multiple people in a row while outmaneuvering them. This however is absolutely irrelevant from a 1v1 and fight participation perspective.
I can tell for almost all duels / 1v1s if i´m loosing to a player more skilled than i am or to a build that´s just countering mine very well. Usually i can draw the latter - but that´s not a possibility on stam vs befoul so i get these will be frustrating.
I honestly can´t tell when i´m getting instakilled. I can´t even tell where there is supposed to be skill involved when doing it myself.
so if this is so easy I ask you to equip tht bow and hawk's eye and go do a similar video
Should take you about one hour, seeing its so easy. Go ahead. Until then your argument is moot and based on emotions
. See what I do now; "I have a golden banana. Its worth so much I can buy the whole game. When I buy it I will remove sorcs because theyre just easy kills. I could do it but I cant be bothered really. "0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.
That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.
Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?
Not really.
Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.
People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.
ok honest question:
how do you tell if someone instantly killing you from sneak is skilled? Because they crafted a build that is capable of instagibbing you?
The execution is not hard. It literally took me 15 minutes buying hawkseye + equipping the stuff with perfected asylum bow until i onshot my first enemy from stealth.
The only display of skill when instakilling is arguably doing that to multiple people in a row while outmaneuvering them. This however is absolutely irrelevant from a 1v1 and fight participation perspective.
I can tell for almost all duels / 1v1s if i´m loosing to a player more skilled than i am or to a build that´s just countering mine very well. Usually i can draw the latter - but that´s not a possibility on stam vs befoul so i get these will be frustrating.
I honestly can´t tell when i´m getting instakilled. I can´t even tell where there is supposed to be skill involved when doing it myself.
so if this is so easy I ask you to equip tht bow and hawk's eye and go do a similar video Should take you about one hour, seeing its so easy. Go ahead. Until then your argument is moot and based on emotions
. See what I do now; "I have a golden banana. Its worth so much I can buy the whole game. When I buy it I will remove sorcs because theyre just easy kills. I could do it but I cant be bothered really. "
It is not because i stated very clearly that the only thing arguably requiring skill (or just being in the right spot at the right time) is doing it to multiple people in a row. Also i can´t record videos - i´ve never tried and don´t know how because it does not interest me.
Which is however unimportant to the argument - that revolves around participation possibilities (and denying them) in a pvp encounter per idividual player.
You take specific points mentioned by me twisting them out of context to fit your agenda instead of adressing the argument i´m making.
You can do better. Or probably not because there is no real argument to be made in favor of instantkills executed from infinite invisibility.
But you can try. Convince me: How can instantkills from permanent invisibility be fun and good gameplay for the receiving end?Edited by Derra on March 30, 2018 9:11AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Its still only emotions. Ive been roaming around with this build for a long time. The risk is far higher than the reward, which is why I like it. I can go on my DK and cackle maniacally at any sniper trying to land this combo and kill me (that was an eg.) but I dont find my DK as challenging as my bow/bow NB. If there was anything like guaranteed reward why dont we get types like Blobs or Fasold running around with it? Ive had my fair tests to down as an example Fasold with this build. Its not gonna work. Never. I can get within distance and land the combo, his shields will be consumed but thats about it. He just recasts. And if he bothers he will then proceed to kill me and with this build I wont have the stamina left to escape or the mag left to cloak away while my PI proccs every 2 sec.
I can instadown incompetent players. I can down low CP level players and if the rng god is with me and theres no dodge involved I can instadown NB's in medium armour and no impen with 20k health. Tell me again which class arent capable of doing the exact thing?
Dorrino isnt complaining about the gank 1v1. He is complaining about the snipers interfering with a 1vx player. I personally dont have any sympathy at all for that argument. Its moot. If you are gonna go 1vx, you cant dictate the conditions. You have to face what is being thrown at you, if not, youre not a 1vx, youre just like that same sniper whos trying to take advantage of a player of less gameknowledge.
I wanna challenge you, do you have kill counter? If so, show me the killing blows done on you. I wanna see if you have a breakdown which is so totally different than mine, because on my killcounter, snipe is at the very bottom, just above fall-damage (nerf it-right?). On top theres the incap combo, theres sorc skills and theres soul attack. Cheap skills, but extremely dangerous to a bo/bow medium wearing NB focusing on burst rather than mobility.
This is just sentiments because the real truth is, you HATE being hit ny snipe. Recently I downed Blobs (who I admire as a player, hes very skilled) on his sorc, and later that afternoon I went back to his channel and whatched the fight. I was situated in a tower (he had already showed me on multiple occations hes the far better player) above him while he was fighting 3 reds. When a DK dragonjumped him I saw his shieldsvanish and he got the stun, so I sniped him and he died. He got *** mad at it, but in all fairness as he said later, it wasnt the snipe which got him, it was the leap firsthand and the fact he was out of resources. We both know the snipe itself he could have survived any day in an other condition. And it was part of going 1vx.
My point is, some players just cant take that snipe, Its like the sniper is Tbagging an attack skill. You get killed by snipe, you feel Tbagged, and for me personally, I fail to reason against sentiments. I hate soul attack. Nerf it. Do I care about it? Not really, if I dont have purge up I die, but its life of my build. I die. very OP isnt it.
Edit; and your highlighted part; instakill from permanent invisibility; are you trying to pull my leg? Dont you know the dots you apply will tick every 2 secs breaking your stealth?You can toss 3 cloaks before out of mag. Each cloak lasts 2 secs, because thats when the dot ticks. That means you can find the NB every 2 secs 3 times before he cant cast cloak anymore, and then he will be exposed anyway. He will have half stamina left (because spray is expensive as FU) and no mag. Still you cant hunt him down and kill him.permastealth? Good joke. Not on a bow/bow NBEdited by killimandrosb16_ESO on March 30, 2018 9:32AM1 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I know your type of player; Youre the one thinking your a god of war, running around like a hamster isnide aresource tower building up ultimate just to turn and mash the 8-10 potatoes following you around, or with your group of 5-6 buddies go arrius mine/alessia farm/aleswell lumber to farm AP. You ever thought about those potatoes your group harvest on dozens every 5 minutes? How fun do you think it is for them, the potatoes running into your instakill group? Is that fair? Then a NB with a bow comes and ends the show, and now you want sympathy? Get rekt more often. I hope more potatoes pick up the bow tactic and stops some of this tower/resource farming going on. I dont like that, you dont like snipe-ganking. I wonder what the average potoato-Joe finds worse; being farmed at tower or getting a random snipe in their face while sieging a keep. You think seriously youre some kind of demi-gods in this game, well, sorry, your worth nothing more than me and my potato buddies. There you go.Edited by killimandrosb16_ESO on March 30, 2018 9:48AM2
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Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Its still only emotions. Ive been roaming around with this build for a long time. The risk is far higher than the reward, which is why I like it. I can go on my DK and cackle maniacally at any sniper trying to land this combo and kill me (that was an eg.) but I dont find my DK as challenging as my bow/bow NB. If there was anything like guaranteed reward why dont we get types like Blobs or Fasold running around with it? Ive had my fair tests to down as an example Fasold with this build. Its not gonna work. Never. I can get within distance and land the combo, his shields will be consumed but thats about it. He just recasts. And if he bothers he will then proceed to kill me and with this build I wont have the stamina left to escape or the mag left to cloak away while my PI proccs every 2 sec.
I can instadown incompetent players. I can down low CP level players and if the rng god is with me and theres no dodge involved I can instadown NB's in medium armour and no impen with 20k health. Tell me again which class arent capable of doing the exact thing?
Dorrino isnt complaining about the gank 1v1. He is complaining about the snipers interfering with a 1vx player. I personally dont have any sympathy at all for that argument. Its moot. If you are gonna go 1vx, you cant dictate the conditions. You have to face what is being thrown at you, if not, youre not a 1vx, youre just like that same sniper whos trying to take advantage of a player of less gameknowledge.
I wanna challenge you, do you have kill counter? If so, show me the killing blows done on you. I wanna see if you have a breakdown which is so totally different than mine, because on my killcounter, snipe is at the very bottom, just above fall-damage (nerf it-right?). On top theres the incap combo, theres sorc skills and theres soul attack. Cheap skills, but extremely dangerous to a bo/bow medium wearing NB focusing on burst rather than mobility.
This is just sentiments because the real truth is, you HATE being hit ny snipe. Recently I downed Blobs (who I admire as a player, hes very skilled) on his sorc, and later that afternoon I went back to his channel and whatched the fight. I was situated in a tower (he had already showed me on multiple occations hes the far better player) above him while he was fighting 3 reds. When a DK dragonjumped him I saw his shieldsvanish and he got the stun, so I sniped him and he died. He got *** mad at it, but in all fairness as he said later, it wasnt the snipe which got him, it was the leap firsthand and the fact he was out of resources. We both know the snipe itself he could have survived any day in an other condition. And it was part of going 1vx.
My point is, some players just cant take that snipe, Its like the sniper is Tbagging an attack skill. You get killed by snipe, you feel Tbagged, and for me personally, I fail to reason against sentiments. I hate soul attack. Nerf it. Do I care about it? Not really, if I dont have purge up I die, but its life of my build. I die. very OP isnt it.
Edit; and your highlighted part; instakill from permanent invisibility; are you trying to pull my leg? Dont you know the dots you apply will tick every 2 secs breaking your stealth?You can toss 3 cloaks before out of mag. Each cloak lasts 2 secs, because thats when the dot ticks. That means you can find the NB every 2 secs 3 times before he cant cast cloak anymore, and then he will be exposed anyway. He will have half stamina left (because spray is expensive as FU) and no mag. Still you cant hunt him down and kill him.permastealth? Good joke. Not on a bow/bow NB
How ist it unbalanced that a gankbuild is at disadvantage if the gank fails?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.
That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.
Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?
Not really.
Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.
People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.
So you prefer to die without a fight to dying to somebody you can get good enough to best?
Isn't it a case of 'i refuse to learn to fight, so i i'd rather accept that learning is impossible?'
What is your reasoning behind refusing to learn to kill 'dodge roll spammers' (how dodge rolling actually kills you?) or 'meta dueling builds'?
There is a fight, but most of it happens before there's anything visually present on your screen
...and yes, if I am to lose a fight, I still prefer dying in that fashion rather than in a humiliating one.
You ask how dodge rolling kills you, have you played a bow build? Every single attack you have is dodgeable, which means a typical rollerblade that can spam dodge roll longer than you can spam snipe+bombard has about zero chance of losing if they're aware of you.
Likewise, meta dueling builds will just erase a bow build in few seconds - that's not a "good fight", it's a humiliating one that makes you think you should be playing a meta build (or playstyle atleast) like everyone else.
Luckily you can still kill them in open world, thanks to stealth burst.Obviously i don’t like getting ganked.
That is assumed that no player in cyro enjoys being killed without a chance of a fight.
Isn’t it a shared value for all of us?
Not really.
Of course no one likes losing, but I can say that I personally prefer dying to a skilled ganker to dying to some dodge roll spammer after first running completely out of stamina dodging gap closer spam while marked. Or dying in some humiliating fashion to a meta dueling build... (happens a lot with a bow build lol), you get the idea.
People like/dislike different things, who would've thought.
ok honest question:
how do you tell if someone instantly killing you from sneak is skilled? Because they crafted a build that is capable of instagibbing you?
The execution is not hard. It literally took me 15 minutes buying hawkseye + equipping the stuff with perfected asylum bow until i onshot my first enemy from stealth.
The only display of skill when instakilling is arguably doing that to multiple people in a row while outmaneuvering them. This however is absolutely irrelevant from a 1v1 and fight participation perspective.
I can tell for almost all duels / 1v1s if i´m loosing to a player more skilled than i am or to a build that´s just countering mine very well. Usually i can draw the latter - but that´s not a possibility on stam vs befoul so i get these will be frustrating.
I honestly can´t tell when i´m getting instakilled. I can´t even tell where there is supposed to be skill involved when doing it myself.
Well, you aren't a bad/new player Derra, you probably have a pretty good idea on how the combo works.
Executing it consistently though isn't easy, and if you screw up even one point of the process (i.e. land skills in wrong order) you won't kill a properly built opponent (you can still kill a squishy random pug, even if you fail to get Asylum buffed).
Honestly, do you think people new to the game/PvP/bow builds will instantly pick up the rotation & positioning elements of the build and start getting kills left & right? I even spent time to make a "tutorial" video for the combo because I don't think that's the case.
But yeah, you've also dueled my bow build (and seen me duel other meta builds around in Alik'r).
I have more fun dying to gankers in Cyrodiil than those humiliating fights; pretty much the only people you can kill on bow build in duels are magplars/mDKs without gap closer (or wings) & sorcs without pets.
And no, I don't feel like I'm dying to "skill" in those duels when I know I could log almost any of my other 9 characters & beat 95% of those people easily. I just feel like dying to meta cheese.Edited by DDuke on March 30, 2018 10:43AM4 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is funny to see someone, who i've never seen doing something else other than snipe spamming outnumbered players from the safety of walls and zergs and benefitting from the bugged state of this skill, argueing about how skillful and risky snipe ganking is ...
(To avoid misunderstanding, i'm not talking about DDuke)1 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭It is funny to see someone, who i've never seen doing something else other than snipe spamming outnumbered players from the safety of walls and zergs and benefitting from the bugged state of this skill, argueing about how skillful and risky snipe ganking is ...
(To avoid misunderstanding, i'm not talking about DDuke)
Warhero incoming, just warning. This guy and his fellowship of outnumbered heros regularly attack AND, mind you, TAKE keeps. If only it wasnt for the buggered darned NB's spamming ranged skills from the walls, the heroic mission would be chanted all over taverns in cyrodiil. Hail thee outnumbered keep-taking hero!Edited by killimandrosb16_ESO on March 30, 2018 11:38AM0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
So what? I must reroll into stamblade from magdk just to have chance to kill such people?Sugaroverdose wrote: »When you face stamina warden/dk/sorc on magicka dk and he does know how to play, you have almost zero chance, but gankers at least does not spend your time.
All of them are winnable on a stamblade. Stam wardens being the easiest, because all their burst is easily avoidable.
Same thing for gankers then - make HA build with descent health pool and you will survive and even may have a chance for kill and it does not requires you to change your class and main resource pool.
Edited by Sugaroverdose on March 30, 2018 2:16PM0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭There is a fight, but most of it happens before there's anything visually present on your screen
A fight is an interaction. A match between 2 people.
What you are saying is similar to 'it's still a game of chess, i just make 10 moves in a row '. Or, 'it's still a 100m running race. I just start at 99m mark'.
This is hypocrisy at best.
"Let me make sure no fight happens and call it a fight'....and yes, if I am to lose a fight, I still prefer dying in that fashion rather than in a humiliating one.
Why exactly a stealth successful gank from somebody who doesn't stand a chance against you otherwise (on any build/character) is not a humiliation?You ask how dodge rolling kills you, have you played a bow build? Every single attack you have is dodgeable, which means a typical rollerblade that can spam dodge roll longer than you can spam snipe+bombard has about zero chance of losing if they're aware of you.
As we discussed before there're no 'bow builds' in this game. It's like i'd go with 'i want to play resto/resto on a stamblade. It HAS to work, because i like it. But these damn *insert any working build* counter my build. I'd rather prefer to get ganked, than being humiliated by *insert any working build*'. And so experiencing this unfairness i use the new 'Sassylium Resto staff' that will allow me to one-shot people from stealth to 'prove' that resto-resto works.'
No it doesn't. Stealth works. Some specific gear designed without taking into account pvp - work. "Resto/resto' still doesn't work.
But this time you willingly forbid fights to happen on your end. You willingly try to devoid other players from the fun of the participation in the fights with you. Just because you stubbornly strive to pretend that something that doesn't work does?Likewise, meta dueling builds will just erase a bow build in few seconds - that's not a "good fight", it's a humiliating one that makes you think you should be playing a meta build (or playstyle atleast) like everyone else.
The reason 'meta' builds win is because they work. The reason your build dies to them is because it doesn't.
Where exactly is the source of humiliation there, besides you humiliating yourself by pretending that anything you want to work actually works?Luckily you can still kill them in open world, thanks to stealth burst.
'Luckily you can choose an arbitrary build and by exploiting invisibility can hope to get a chance to take down a person with a proper build in an unfair combat?'
Luckily?Edited by Dorrino on March 30, 2018 2:58PM4 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a fight, but most of it happens before there's anything visually present on your screen
A fight is an interaction. A match between 2 people.
What you are saying is similar to 'it's still a game of chess, i just make 10 moves in a row '. Or, 'it's still a 100m running race. I just start at 99m mark'.
This is hypocrisy at best.
"Let me make sure no fight happens and call it a fight'....and yes, if I am to lose a fight, I still prefer dying in that fashion rather than in a humiliating one.
Why exactly a stealth successful gank from somebody who doesn't stand a chance against you otherwise (on any build/character) is not a humiliation?You ask how dodge rolling kills you, have you played a bow build? Every single attack you have is dodgeable, which means a typical rollerblade that can spam dodge roll longer than you can spam snipe+bombard has about zero chance of losing if they're aware of you.
As we discussed before there're no 'bow builds' in this game. It's like i'd go with 'i want to play resto/resto on a stamblade. It HAS to work, because i like it. But these damn *insert any working build* counter my build. I'd rather prefer to get ganked, than being humiliated by *insert any working build*'. And so experiencing this unfairness i use the new 'Sassylium Resto staff' that will allow me to one-shot people from stealth to 'prove' that resto-resto works.'
No it doesn't. Stealth works. Some specific gear designed without taking into account pvp - work. "Resto/resto' still doesn't work.
But this time you willingly forbid fights to happen on your end. You willingly try to devoid other players from the fun of the participation in the fights with you. Just because you stubbornly strive to pretend that something that doesn't work does?Likewise, meta dueling builds will just erase a bow build in few seconds - that's not a "good fight", it's a humiliating one that makes you think you should be playing a meta build (or playstyle atleast) like everyone else.
The reason 'meta' builds win is because they work. The reason your build dies to them is because it doesn't.
Where exactly is the source of humiliation there, besides you humiliating yourself by pretending that anything you want to work actually works?Luckily you can still kill them in open world, thanks to stealth burst.
'Luckily you can choose an arbitrary build and by exploiting invisibility can hope to get a chance to take down a person with a proper build in an unfair combat?'
Luckily?
I never thought I’d say this about miat ever, but his argument about the resto/resto actually makes sense and is a valid argument.1 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭still he drops dead like a deer on a highway without his addon and rages like a potato. So whos right and whos wrong in the end. He doesnt like bow-builds, why should the ones who does change their gamestyle to please one guy? I have said it before and Ill repeat it, Dorrino has absolutely no right above anyone else to dictate another ones laystyle. Neither does he have the permission to ruin that experience with his addons. Ill praise a bow/bow roamer 100 times before I praise one of those hamsters running inside a tower or the light attack casting bunnies jumping around cliffs. And when I score some few kills on those I take great pleasure in it, just as I have my fair share of Tbagging when on the receiving end, which is far more often. Im still waiting for that kill-counter proving snipe is a problem tbhEdited by killimandrosb16_ESO on March 30, 2018 4:06PM0
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killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Actually it doesnt make sense discussing this with Dorrino. This has been going on for ages. He wants ZoS to remove bow builds, we all know that, and we also all know theres no way im hell even if it freezes over hes gonna appreciate the OP's skills or abilities, so in all seriousness Dorrino, if you wanna keep up the remove bow/bow topic make your own one and let us who appreciate this video and the OP's roaming do so0
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Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Actually it doesnt make sense discussing this with Dorrino. This has been going on for ages. He wants ZoS to remove bow builds, we all know that, and we also all know theres no way im hell even if it freezes over hes gonna appreciate the OP's skills or abilities, so in all seriousness Dorrino, if you wanna keep up the remove bow/bow topic make your own one and let us who appreciate this video and the OP's roaming do so
I don't care about 'bow builds' in general and 'bow/bow builds' specifically. You like them? You play them.
I care about interactions of anything, including 'bow builds', with stealth.
'Bow builds' are one of the weakest builds in Cyrodiil and never pose a problem on their own.
The problem was (and is) an ability to pull off a high damage invisible attack from an invisible source.Edited by Dorrino on March 30, 2018 4:27PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There is a fight, but most of it happens before there's anything visually present on your screen
A fight is an interaction. A match between 2 people.
What you are saying is similar to 'it's still a game of chess, i just make 10 moves in a row '. Or, 'it's still a 100m running race. I just start at 99m mark'.
This is hypocrisy at best.
"Let me make sure no fight happens and call it a fight'.
Well, since you brought up chess look at it like this:
Chess is a game where you have to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent. If you get bursted from stealth, that just means you failed to anticipate your opponent's move. Check mate.
Just because you can't see someone doesn't mean it's not a fight, it just means the game has stealth elements in it.
Could those elements be improved by the developers? Sure. But what we've got is what we've got.
Why would it be? This build kills anyone who is in the burst range if you pull off the combo, there's no shame in dying to it & it actually requires quite a bit of skill to land the combo. If someone kills me with it (or any other stealth burst, like Overload gank build) I think it's well played, not some humiliating experience.
You don't have to share this mindset, that's just how I personally think.You ask how dodge rolling kills you, have you played a bow build? Every single attack you have is dodgeable, which means a typical rollerblade that can spam dodge roll longer than you can spam snipe+bombard has about zero chance of losing if they're aware of you.
As we discussed before there're no 'bow builds' in this game. It's like i'd go with 'i want to play resto/resto on a stamblade. It HAS to work, because i like it. But these damn *insert any working build* counter my build. I'd rather prefer to get ganked, than being humiliated by *insert any working build*'. And so experiencing this unfairness i use the new 'Sassylium Resto staff' that will allow me to one-shot people from stealth to 'prove' that resto-resto works.'
No it doesn't. Stealth works. Some specific gear designed without taking into account pvp - work. "Resto/resto' still doesn't work.
But this time you willingly forbid fights to happen on your end. You willingly try to devoid other players from the fun of the participation in the fights with you. Just because you stubbornly strive to pretend that something that doesn't work does?
So does it work, or doesn't it work? Try to decide. You can't complain about a build that excels at killing people from stealth, and then right after claim that it doesn't work.
It works perfectly fine, as long as you can leverage stealth to your advantage.
I don't see what resto/resto has to do anything, but I'm quite sure one could make a strong healer build with that since that's what resto staff is supposed to do: heal people.
What bow is supposed to do is kill people, and I'm glad it finally does with your addon out of the picture.Likewise, meta dueling builds will just erase a bow build in few seconds - that's not a "good fight", it's a humiliating one that makes you think you should be playing a meta build (or playstyle atleast) like everyone else.
The reason 'meta' builds win is because they work. The reason your build dies to them is because it doesn't.
Where exactly is the source of humiliation there, besides you humiliating yourself by pretending that anything you want to work actually works?
Meta builds are what is killing PvP in this game by making it monotonous and boring, which is exactly why ZOS should work towards making less popular skills & skill lines stronger.
Based on ample testing I can say this includes bow (but not the stealth burst aspect of it).
Bombard needs to be undodgeable like other AOE in the game, Scatter Shot (not even worth slotting atm) needs to be 28m range etc etc
But yeah, at the moment, dueling with a bow build doesn't make you feel like a strong player. Open world is another story.
The overwhelming burst from stealth is the fair part of the fight for stealth builds. Shocker, right?
You know what isn't? The rest of the "fight".
So yeah, luckily.
If I wanted to play a "proper build" like 99% of other people, I'd just play a regular rollerblade.
Luckily, I find "proper builds" boring and can actually enrich the meta with new builds & playstyles by making my builds public.2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭[
Well, since you brought up chess look at it like this:
Chess is a game where you have to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent.
You don't. You would prefer to, but you don't have to.If you get bursted from stealth, that just means you failed to anticipate your opponent's move. Check mate.
This assumes there's a valid strategy within the ruleset that allows for the said anticipation.
if somebody is not stealthed you can notice him and fight accordingly.
If he's stealthed from the start - you don't.
There would be no problem at all if you could see an approaching nightblade that cloaked right before the attack. In this case temporary invisibility becomes a local strategy, unique for the nightblade class.
In reality 'our stealthed assassins' are invisible all the time. After one fails to capitalize on his opener - the rest of the fight is easily anticipated (with some shortcomings of the system, like ease of restealthing).
If the whole conundrum was regarding stamblades pulling off a cloak or two in the middle of the fight - we wouldn't have this conversation.
The problem arises when said 'assassin's' are perma stealthed/cloaked.Just because you can't see someone doesn't mean it's not a fight, it just means the game has stealth elements in it.
It is not a fight because one party doesn't participate in it. A fight inherently implies both players in it. This becomes even more important in a game where mutual fun is the key element of the encounters.Why would it be? This build kills anyone who is in the burst range if you pull off the combo, there's no shame in dying to it & it actually requires quite a bit of skill to land the combo. If someone kills me with it (or any other stealth burst, like Overload gank build) I think it's well played, not some humiliating experience.
Some player decided it's alright to engage you in a unfun and intrinsically unfair encounter. This player expected you to die without retaliation. In my book that's lack of respect and an attempt to humiliate the opponent.You don't have to share this mindset, that's just how I personally think.
I don't, just like you don't have to share mine.So does it work, or doesn't it work? Try to decide. You can't complain about a build that excels at killing people from stealth, and then right after claim that it doesn't work.
It doesn't without specific gimmicks. In my book a working build has to be effective even in the worst case scenario.
The 'bow builds' render powerless if stealth is denied or if the target is aware about their presence.
This all screams a 'gimmick'. A fluke. An exploit of the system.
If a build if powerful regardless of the player's skill only on unaware opponents it promotes the unskillfullness of the player and toxicity in the community.
People generally expect the outcome to correlate with the efforts.
If you cheat your way around the learning curve by using a gimmick - you trivialize the whole combat environment.
Though you personally might not care about those things and be in your right.It works perfectly fine, as long as you can leverage stealth to your advantage.
This is akin to 'my build survivability is absolute, i just need to be in an alliance base'. I.e. true, but irrelevant at the same time.I don't see what resto/resto has to do anything, but I'm quite sure one could make a strong healer build with that since that's what resto staff is supposed to do: heal people.
Resto/resto doesn't work good at bursting people. Bow/bow doesn't work good at bursting people. But in both cases there might be a gimmick to make it 'work' in a very narrow set of unique circumstances. That doesn't mean the setup becomes effective. It means there's a loophole in the system you try to exploit.
In the case of nightblades this all is easily testable. If you 1v1 doesn't work without cloak/sneak - the build doesn't work.
If as a nightblade i take off the cloak, my offense will stay exactly the same. It's my defense that will take a hit. So 1v1 i'd be squishier, but still highly effective.
In your case the whole build becomes dysfunctional with one small change.
This is what i mean by 'bow builds' don't work.What bow is supposed to do is kill people, and I'm glad it finally does with your addon out of the picture.
Are they? Is it because you want them to be this way?Meta builds are what is killing PvP in this game by making it monotonous and boring, which is exactly why ZOS should work towards making less popular skills & skill lines stronger.
Meta builds require proper actions. Proper defense. Proper offense. Proper awareness. Some of them are easier than others, but in any case their main property is they are universal. The work in a large range of circumstances.
That's why they are strong.
You might find this universality boring - you're in your right again.The overwhelming burst from stealth is the fair part of the fight for stealth builds. Shocker, right?
But not a part of the fight of their targets. Shocker?:)
Why again would you try prevent other people to have fun in the game?You know what isn't? The rest of the "fight".
There's no 'rest of the fight'. They either succeed (and the 'fight' ends before it starts). Or they don't and they try to restealth. There's no phase of the encounter that constitutes a fight.Luckily, I find "proper builds" boring and can actually enrich the meta with new builds & playstyles by making my builds public.
When you'll be able to effectively duel with your 'improper builds' you will enrich the meta. For now it's a easily deniable gimmick that brings only random frustration to other people. If frustrating other people is fine with you - there's nothing more to discuss here.Edited by Dorrino on March 30, 2018 6:11PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, since you brought up chess look at it like this:
Chess is a game where you have to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent.
You don't. You would prefer to, but you don't have to.If you get bursted from stealth, that just means you failed to anticipate your opponent's move. Check mate.
This assumes there's a valid strategy within the ruleset that allows for the said anticipation.
if somebody is not stealthed you can notice him and fight accordingly.
If he's stealthed from the start - you don't.
There would be no problem at all if you could see an approaching nightblade that cloaked right before the attack. In this case temporary invisibility becomes a local strategy, unique for the nightblade class.
In reality 'our stealthed assassins' are invisible all the time. After one fails to capitalize on his opener - the rest of the fight is easily anticipated (with some shortcomings of the system, like ease of restealthing).
If the whole conundrum was regarding stamblades pulling off a cloak or two in the middle of the fight - we wouldn't have this conversation.
The problem arises when said 'assassin's' are perma stealthed/cloaked.
In most MMOs I've played, the stealth class has always initiated the fight from stealth, it's not really some feature unique to ESO.So does it work, or doesn't it work? Try to decide. You can't complain about a build that excels at killing people from stealth, and then right after claim that it doesn't work.
It doesn't without specific gimmicks. In my book a working build has to be effective even in the worst case scenario.
Oh, so exactly how effective is your rollerblade when it gets one shot by Asylum Snipe?The 'bow builds' render powerless if stealth is denied or if the target is aware about their presence.
This all screams a 'gimmick'. A fluke. An exploit of the system.
If a build if powerful regardless of the player's skill only on unaware opponents it promotes the unskillfullness of the player and toxicity in the community.
People generally expect the outcome to correlate with the efforts.
If you cheat your way around the learning curve by using a gimmick - you trivialize the whole combat environment.
Though you personally might not care about those things and be in your right.
Ah, so you think there's no learning curve to stealth builds? That's hilarious. If it were true, everyone would be playing these builds and getting kills left & right, but it's not as easy as you think.
In fact, I'd say being efficient on a bow build is significantly more difficult than just spamming dodge rolls & cloaks until Incap->Relentless is up again.
One could make that argument just by pointing out at how many people are playing rollerblades currently & being effective with them in comparison to bow builds.It works perfectly fine, as long as you can leverage stealth to your advantage.
This is akin to 'my build survivability is absolute, i just need to be in an alliance base'. I.e. true, but irrelevant at the same time.I don't see what resto/resto has to do anything, but I'm quite sure one could make a strong healer build with that since that's what resto staff is supposed to do: heal people.
Resto/resto doesn't work good at bursting people. Bow/bow doesn't work good at bursting people. But in both cases there might be a gimmick to make it 'work' in a very narrow set of unique circumstances. That doesn't mean the setup becomes effective. It means there's a loophole in the system you try to exploit.
That entire paragraph is so filled with contradictions that I don't even know where to begin.
Bow/bow doesn't work good at bursting people, but then it does when you use the correct gear?
By that logic we should all play naked.
I wonder how well those rollerblades sustain without all those Eternal Hunts & Shacklebreakers etc?In the case of nightblades this all is easily testable. If you 1v1 doesn't work without cloak/sneak - the build doesn't work.
If as a nightblade i take off the cloak, my offense will stay exactly the same. It's my defense that will take a hit. So 1v1 i'd be squishier, but still highly effective.
In your case the whole build becomes dysfunctional with one small change.
This is what i mean by 'bow builds' don't work.
Sure.
That's why you can't really play bow build on other classes currently (though in theory stam sorc with BoL can work) and is the reason why other classes need similar damage avoidance/kiting tools.
Though if you do get marked with this build it's fairly easy to still escape with speed potion>sprint with 7 medium, unless you're being chased by someone with gap closer and/or speed potions as well.
Another skill element to these builds is being able to escape with limited sustain & a very squishy character with healing limited to Vigor.
Well, that's what bows tend to do.
Hunter in WoW? Ranger in GW2 or BDO?
What do you think bows are supposed to do?Meta builds are what is killing PvP in this game by making it monotonous and boring, which is exactly why ZOS should work towards making less popular skills & skill lines stronger.
Meta builds require proper actions. Proper defense. Proper offense. Proper awareness. Some of them are easier than others, but in any case their main property is they are universal. The work in a large range of circumstances.
That's why they are strong.
You might find this universality boring - you're in your right again.
Universal. You said it yourself, there's very little variation with meta builds. You've seen one of them, you've seen all.
I'm happy bowblade feels different to play in every respect. Different defense. Different offense. Different awareness.
We need more of that in ESO.
I could ask you the same question.
Maybe everyone should unslot gap closers because I don't find them fun when playing my bow builds?
Or maybe we should just get along with the fact that builds can have different strengths and weaknesses.
So them trying to restealth & create distance isn't part of the fight? In that part of the fight you prevent them from doing that & you're at a significant advantage until they manage to restealth again. Leverage that advantage.
Besides, I've killed plenty of people even after the initial burst fails to kill someone.
Ballista for example is a very nice skill to finish someone off if they were tanky enough to survive (or you screwed up the Asylum Snipe).Luckily, I find "proper builds" boring and can actually enrich the meta with new builds & playstyles by making my builds public.
When you'll be able to effectively duel with your 'improper builds' you will enrich the meta. For now it's a easily deniable gimmick that brings only random frustration to other people. If frustrating other people is fine with you - there's nothing more to discuss here.
Yeah, I do hope ZOS makes some bow improvements in the next Chapter so that it is able to compete in duels as well.
But duels are only a small part of the PvP.2 -
CavalryPK✭✭✭✭✭Watching this video made my sodium levels increase exponentially. Awesome job!! I definitely don't want you showing up in the middle of a fight.THE CAVELRY HAS ARRIVED! Cav is a professional magblade, (in his not so professional opinion). He is immortal and is fighting for the Pact since 2E 572, amidst the turmoil of the Second Akaviri Invasion. He protects the provinces of Skyrim, Morrowind and Black Marsh.
Check out his PVP YouTube channel !
https://youtube.com/TheCavalryPK0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, since you brought up chess look at it like this:
Chess is a game where you have to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent. If you get bursted from stealth, that just means you failed to anticipate your opponent's move. Check mate.
How the hell do you anticipate an opponents move if you literally never saw them because the game allows them to be invisible for infinite amounts of time?
Right. You can´t unless ofc you think it´s appropriate for anyone not wanting to play sneak around the rosies to waddle form keep to keep holding block in anticipation of an enemy who then proceeds to laugh (invisibly) at the idiot wasting his time.
I´m sorry but you can´t be serious with that statement?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, since you brought up chess look at it like this:
Chess is a game where you have to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent. If you get bursted from stealth, that just means you failed to anticipate your opponent's move. Check mate.
How the hell do you anticipate an opponents move if you literally never saw them because the game allows them to be invisible for infinite amounts of time?
Right. You can´t unless ofc you think it´s appropriate for anyone not wanting to play sneak around the rosies to waddle form keep to keep holding block in anticipation of an enemy who then proceeds to laugh (invisibly) at the idiot wasting his time.
I´m sorry but you can´t be serious with that statement?
Depends on the situation.
Approaching Alessia bridge? Good chance there's gankers there.
In combat? You're already shielding up/blocking/dodging.
Riding in middle of nowhere? Yeah, you're probably dead unless you built a tanky enough character.
...or my favourite: inside a friendly keep, surrounded by friendly zerglings & NPC guards? Yeah, those are my favourite people to snipe because they never see it coming & it's kinda funny.
It is what it is, better than having no stealth oriented builds at all.
Keep in mind that you need to be within the exact right range & land the bombard as well, it's not like people can one shot you from 40m away lolEdited by DDuke on March 30, 2018 7:49PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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It is what it is, better than having no stealth oriented builds at all.
This is where i disagree.
It´s the only form of play that aims to deny participation entirely for the victim. It´s from it´s very nature absolutely selfish and disrespectful towards the people you´re playing against as the ideal encounter means they can´t play.
Nope better have no stealth oriented builds at all.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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It is what it is, better than having no stealth oriented builds at all.
This is where i disagree.
It´s the only form of play that aims to deny participation entirely for the victim. It´s from it´s very nature absolutely selfish and disrespectful towards the people you´re playing against as the ideal encounter means they can´t play.
Nope better have no stealth oriented builds at all.
Well, we're all allowed to have opinions.
I can understand your perspective, as you dislike playing against them.
I however wouldn't be playing this game at all if it didn't have some type of stealth builds that are enjoyable (to some degree) to play.1 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭
Well, you aren't a bad/new player Derra, you probably have a pretty good idea on how the combo works.
Stop the big compliments pls @DDuke
This "I steal other people the fun in cyro" just gives me giggles. What do u think about zergs lagging the server, spamming aoes chasing down solos like me over the whole map @Dorrino . It's not like i get often asylum sniped - it happens very very rarely... And u loose nothing - if it would be full loot PvP Id maybe get mad aswell.
I dont mind gankers as long they arent too viable in a 1v1. Of course a build with no sustain, doing insane alpha dmg from stealth with like 95% first hit shouldnt be too strong in a duel.
Learn curve of eso - if u want an experience with a high learning curve go play some real time strategy like starcraft 2 Warcraft 3 - Eso was never designed to be anywhere NEAR competitve or requiering alot of skill.
@Derra If u dont enjoy getting sniped just join AD - we got all the snipers and nightcappers
Dont get distracted @DDuke and @Derra - always enjoy u 2 dueling each other in the forums - its more competitve then eso itselfEdited by Murador178 on March 30, 2018 8:59PM3 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭In most MMOs I've played, the stealth class has always initiated the fight from stealth, it's not really some feature unique to ESO.
This is correct.
They didn't kill from the opener though and to be considered balanced. If they did - the game changed to prevent that.
Strong (and in 'drastically reducing chances for retaliation') openers in each game were considered detrimental to the said game.
ESO is no exception.Oh, so exactly how effective is your rollerblade when it gets one shot by Asylum Snipe?
They are not getting one-shot. I described the problem above. We moved from a zero retaliation one-shot 1v1 to huge chunk of health in 1vx.
Additionally this argument is along the lines of 'and how your build helps you if you're afk?'. Not being provided retaliation strategy equals to being afk for all intents and purposes.Ah, so you think there's no learning curve to stealth builds? That's hilarious. If it were true, everyone would be playing these builds and getting kills left & right, but it's not as easy as you think.
Anything in this life has a learning curve. This 'assassin' playstyle has much shorter time to reach a similar effectiveness to most other builds.
The argument is not 'no learning at all vs a lot of learning'. It's about 'hugely decreased learning time vs much longer one'.In fact, I'd say being efficient on a bow build is significantly more difficult than just spamming dodge rolls & cloaks until Incap->Relentless is up again.
This is another example of a gimmick. But at least it provides a rather large opportunity for both prevention and retaliation.One could make that argument just by pointing out at how many people are playing rollerblades currently & being effective with them in comparison to bow builds.
Non-ganking nightblades? Almost nobody in NA vivec. I personal know 3-4 names at best.That entire paragraph is so filled with contradictions that I don't even know where to begin.
Bow/bow doesn't work good at bursting people, but then it does when you use the correct gear?
Doesn't have the burst means - doesn't have a reliable way of applying the said burst. Anything in this game can have a lot of damage. Even resto/resto.
Resto/resto and bow/bow are similar in the sense that both need very specific gimmicks to perform. Unlike non-gimmick builds that work universally.I wonder how well those rollerblades sustain without all those Eternal Hunts & Shacklebreakers etc?
They would use other sources of resources regen.
Sustain can be achieved in my different ways. It doesn't rely on specific sets.That's why you can't really play bow build on other classes currently (though in theory stam sorc with BoL can work) and is the reason why other classes need similar damage avoidance/kiting tools.
This game, unlike wow, doesn't support kiting playstyles besides limited gimmicks like Shadow Image.
The main reason is to kite you need to be drastically faster than you target while doing damage. Which is usually achieved by applying slows and roots.
In this game both slows and roots are immuned for arbitrary duration.
This is another part of wishful thinking.
You want kiting to work in a game where kiting doesn't work by design.Though if you do get marked with this build it's fairly easy to still escape with speed potion>sprint with 7 medium, unless you're being chased by someone with gap closer and/or speed potions as well.
Speed pots give the same major expedition as all other sources of such. Like dodge on the bow bar, warden's wings etc.
So running away marked has very limited applications.
Unless we're talking about bad players then this dialog is pointless again since everything works against them. Even resto/resto.Another skill element to these builds is being able to escape with limited sustain & a very squishy character with healing limited to Vigor.
This is not an intrinsic limitation of the build.
On the contrary you choose to have that to increase your damage. And this trade-off pays off only because of the current implementation of stealth.
It's the same thing as with sorcs shields. Sorcs are uniquely allowed to stack less defenses (and increase their damage), because shields can not be critted.
Both are obviously imbalanced due to oversights in the combat system.Well, that's what bows tend to do.
Hunter in WoW? Ranger in GW2 or BDO?
Here you compare classes designed with specific weapons in mind (and restricted from using many other weapons) to a game where no weapon has to be the main damage dealing weapon.
In both WoW and GW2 the relevant classes have to be albe to be effective with ranged weapons. Especially wow where there's no option otherwise.
In ESO all weapons are arbitrary and very presence of a weapon doesn't imply it's effective intended role.What do you think bows are supposed to do?
Provide some damage from the safety of huge distance to the target.
As soon as bows will provide the same damage (and means of delivering this damage) as melee options nobody would use melee options. Ranged is always preferred to melee. In any game. And in life:) There's a reason projectiles based weapons made swords and maces obsolete.Universal. You said it yourself, there's very little variation with meta builds. You've seen one of them, you've seen all.
I'm happy bowblade feels different to play in every respect. Different defense. Different offense. Different awareness.
For some reason you equate 'universal' with 'identical'.
'Universal' means 'similarily effective in all simulations. This effectiveness can be achieved by drastically different means.
GW2 is a good example here. Drastically different elite specs mechanics can achieve very similar results. But differently.
In ESO for instance 2h/bow or dw/2h are universal weapon setups. They work in almost any imaginable situations (especcially 2h/bow). While bow/bow works only from stealth.We need more of that in ESO.
Here i obviously agree that we need more diversity in effective builds.Maybe everyone should unslot gap closers because I don't find them fun when playing my bow builds?
Or maybe we should just get along with the fact that builds can have different strengths and weaknesses.
Gap closers, like literally anything else in the game provide options for counterplay.
Anything besides burst from stealth.
It is unique in this respect.So them trying to restealth & create distance isn't part of the fight? In that part of the fight you prevent them from doing that & you're at a significant advantage until they manage to restealth again. Leverage that advantage.
No, because they don't fight you.
The situation is merely reversed.
When they try to gank - there's no fight because you're not participating.
When they try to restealth, there's no fight because they are not participating.Besides, I've killed plenty of people even after the initial burst fails to kill someone.
Yep. When those people still failed to deliver a counterplay. Even after becoming aware they are under attack.
As i said above i don't consider examples based on bad players. Anything works with them.Yeah, I do hope ZOS makes some bow improvements in the next Chapter so that it is able to compete in duels as well.
But duels are only a small part of the PvP.
They are. I'm not advocating for duels. I'm advocating for fair fights, that require a chance on retaliation. People might not use that chance, but it has to be there.Edited by Dorrino on March 30, 2018 9:12PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In most MMOs I've played, the stealth class has always initiated the fight from stealth, it's not really some feature unique to ESO.
This is correct.
They didn't kill from the opener though and to be considered balanced. If they did - the game changed to prevent that.
Strong (and in 'drastically reducing chances for retaliation') openers in each game were considered detrimental to the said game.
ESO is no exception.
In many games they did (and still do, if the game has lots of gear progression) kill from the opener. Or they'd stunlock you to death if your CC break was on cooldown.
In all of those games though, stealth was meaningful and had more uses than potentially stunning someone, watching them do the cooldownless CC Break, shield up & reset the fight - which is exactly what ESO stealth gameplay boils down to unless you instagib your opponent.Oh, so exactly how effective is your rollerblade when it gets one shot by Asylum Snipe?
They are not getting one-shot. I described the problem above. We moved from a zero retaliation one-shot 1v1 to huge chunk of health in 1vx.
Additionally this argument is along the lines of 'and how your build helps you if you're afk?'. Not being provided retaliation strategy equals to being afk for all intents and purposes.
Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying your build wouldn't die to Asylum Snipe?
If so, what are you complaining about?
Just FYI: it is an instagib on any medium build below 25k health though if Lethal Arrow crits & you catch them not dodge rolling for a second.Ah, so you think there's no learning curve to stealth builds? That's hilarious. If it were true, everyone would be playing these builds and getting kills left & right, but it's not as easy as you think.
Anything in this life has a learning curve. This 'assassin' playstyle has much shorter time to reach a similar effectiveness to most other builds.
The argument is not 'no learning at all vs a lot of learning'. It's about 'hugely decreased learning time vs much longer one'.
Ok, if you think so : ))
I guess you've already tried it out and come to that conclusion.
Does it? Depends highly on whom you're fighting - there are still builds with very little (or in many cases zero) undodgeable abilities.
The meta must be wildly different then.
In Vivec EU, you can't throw a rock in Cyrodiil without hitting a rollerblade kiting 15 pugs around some tree. In the top duel spot (Bergama, Alik'r), rollerblades are everywhere as well.
Almost nobody plays an actual gank build.That entire paragraph is so filled with contradictions that I don't even know where to begin.
Bow/bow doesn't work good at bursting people, but then it does when you use the correct gear?
Doesn't have the burst means - doesn't have a reliable way of applying the said burst. Anything in this game can have a lot of damage. Even resto/resto.
Resto/resto and bow/bow are similar in the sense that both need very specific gimmicks to perform. Unlike non-gimmick builds that work universally.
If this burst could be reliably applied then we could talk about it being broken. But it isn't, as you so kindly put it yourself.
In the end, there are very few completely reliable ways of bursting someone.
Incap can get dodge rolled, DBOS can get blocked, Overload can get dodged, Meteor can be blocked etc... In the end, I think the only "reliable" burst in the game is the Meteor>Rune Cage combo, which luckily doesn't deal the kind of damage to one shot most people.
I don't think you got the point there, but ok. I think it'd be lovely if there were more bows like Asylum Bow... some more diversity in gear choices.
Maybe with the next ability buffing weapons there'll be a snipe buffing one that could compete for BiS, that'd be nice.That's why you can't really play bow build on other classes currently (though in theory stam sorc with BoL can work) and is the reason why other classes need similar damage avoidance/kiting tools.
This game, unlike wow, doesn't support kiting playstyles besides limited gimmicks like Shadow Image.
The main reason is to kite you need to be drastically faster than you target while doing damage. Which is usually achieved by applying slows and roots.
In this game both slows and roots are immuned for arbitrary duration.
This is another part of wishful thinking.
You want kiting to work in a game where kiting doesn't work by design.
Shadow Image, Cloak, BoL/Streak - there are a few more kiting tools, but clearly not enough of them. There are also some area denial skills, but most aren't worth slotting.
If anything, that serves as an argument to add more such skills to other classes & modifying existing skills to better accommodate the kiting playstyle.
You think that because things are bad, they should stay bad, which is flawed thinking.
Besides, what was it if not "wishful thinking", a demand for change, that got the game's API fixed & the toxic elements of your addon gone?
They do listen. Sometimes.Though if you do get marked with this build it's fairly easy to still escape with speed potion>sprint with 7 medium, unless you're being chased by someone with gap closer and/or speed potions as well.
Speed pots give the same major expedition as all other sources of such. Like dodge on the bow bar, warden's wings etc.
So running away marked has very limited applications.
Unless we're talking about bad players then this dialog is pointless again since everything works against them. Even resto/resto.
Yes, but how many can keep up with a stamina build that is sprinting away? Also, unlike using speed potions, casting skills like Bird of Prey every 10 seconds or dodge rolling actually slows you down quite a bit, which makes it harder to catch someone in 7 medium. Keep in mind that if you aren't a NB, the bowblade will be able to cloak->sneak as soon as combat drops & then they'll be gone with stage 4 vampirism.
I also run 5x Well-Fitted on my build, which significantly helps in this. Gap closer spam and/or speed potions is really the only thing that can really mess you up.Another skill element to these builds is being able to escape with limited sustain & a very squishy character with healing limited to Vigor.
This is not an intrinsic limitation of the build.
On the contrary you choose to have that to increase your damage. And this trade-off pays off only because of the current implementation of stealth.
It's the same thing as with sorcs shields. Sorcs are uniquely allowed to stack less defenses (and increase their damage), because shields can not be critted.
Both are obviously imbalanced due to oversights in the combat system.
Yes, I choose to be one of the 4-5 people in Cyrodiil who don't run a 2H on stamblade and play a build in which 2H would be a downgrade in efficiency.
I don't see how that's a problem - we need more builds like this that chip away the established, stale meta.Well, that's what bows tend to do.
Hunter in WoW? Ranger in GW2 or BDO?
Here you compare classes designed with specific weapons in mind (and restricted from using many other weapons) to a game where no weapon has to be the main damage dealing weapon.
In both WoW and GW2 the relevant classes have to be albe to be effective with ranged weapons. Especially wow where there's no option otherwise.
In ESO all weapons are arbitrary and very presence of a weapon doesn't imply it's effective intended role.
So you're saying bows' intended role isn't killing people?
I kinda just jumped to the most obvious conclusion, but let's hear you out.What do you think bows are supposed to do?
Provide some damage from the safety of huge distance to the target.
As soon as bows will provide the same damage (and means of delivering this damage) as melee options nobody would use melee options. Ranged is always preferred to melee. In any game. And in life:) There's a reason projectiles based weapons made swords and maces obsolete.
Hmm. Hmmm....
I guess that's why melee mDKs, Templars & NBs don't exist - because ranged is always preferred to melee.
Perfectly clear.
Thanks for the history lesson though.Universal. You said it yourself, there's very little variation with meta builds. You've seen one of them, you've seen all.
I'm happy bowblade feels different to play in every respect. Different defense. Different offense. Different awareness.
For some reason you equate 'universal' with 'identical'.
'Universal' means 'similarily effective in all simulations. This effectiveness can be achieved by drastically different means.
GW2 is a good example here. Drastically different elite specs mechanics can achieve very similar results. But differently.
In ESO for instance 2h/bow or dw/2h are universal weapon setups. They work in almost any imaginable situations (especcially 2h/bow). While bow/bow works only from stealth.
Can't disagree with that.
If anything, that tells us bow needs more improvements to make it viable elsewhere as well.We need more of that in ESO.
Here i obviously agree that we need more diversity in effective builds.Maybe everyone should unslot gap closers because I don't find them fun when playing my bow builds?
Or maybe we should just get along with the fact that builds can have different strengths and weaknesses.
Gap closers, like literally anything else in the game provide options for counterplay.
Anything besides burst from stealth.
It is unique in this respect.
Really? I'd like to see how you "counter" gap closer spam as a bow build. Especially without cloak (or BoL).So them trying to restealth & create distance isn't part of the fight? In that part of the fight you prevent them from doing that & you're at a significant advantage until they manage to restealth again. Leverage that advantage.
No, because they don't fight you.
The situation is merely reversed.
When they try to gank - there's no fight because you're not participating.
When they try to restealth, there's no fight because they are not participating.
That's precisely what makes playing a bow build a different experience: you're not just animation canceling skills at people non-stop & using your defensive skills to stay out of burst range in a non-stop loop of repeating the same rotations over and over again. No, you've actually got to do things differently.
Someone trying to restealth is still very much fighting you, they just know they can't do so on melee range because that is the weakness of their build.
As mentioned before, the game needs more skills on other classes that allow you to maintain that distance & changes to skills like Bombard & Scatter Shot to make them more viable. 28m range on Scatter Shot alone would be a gamechanger for bow builds' viability considering how effective Flame Reach is on kiting oriented magicka builds.Edited by DDuke on March 30, 2018 11:13PM4 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭In many games they did (and still do, if the game has lots of gear progression) kill from the opener. Or they'd stunlock you to death if your CC break was on cooldown.
Do you have reasoning as to why having those above benefits the player's experience in any shape or form?
Many mmos have their business models designed around frustration. 'You die in one-shot? Get our exp boost, premium gear, combat boost' etc etc. The desire to have all that you mentioned in the game is justified from the publisher's standpoint. But is it justified from players' viewpoint?In all of those games though, stealth was meaningful and had more uses than potentially stunning someone, watching them do the cooldownless CC Break, shield up & reset the fight - which is exactly what ESO stealth gameplay boils down to unless you instagib your opponent.
Let's imagine a game when everybody's stealthed and everybody's insta gibs their opponent if they find them. Do you consider that a fun skillful environment?
Because i recall some people using this argument. 'it doesn't matter if i die to a one-shot. What matters is i can kill anyone with one.'. Does this philosophy sound familiar to you?
The thing is you keep avoiding the question, but what about your target? What about their frustration? What about their powerlessness?
If you share the attitude above this will make sense.Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying your build wouldn't die to Asylum Snipe?
If so, what are you complaining about?
You falsely assume that i comp[lain about things that prevent me playing the game. I don't. These things happen too rare (a ganker in the perfect moment during 1vx), so it would be relevant.
I'm expressing my opinion on what makes the game fun and not fun for players. I'm irrelevant. I do like some things and don't like some other things, but it's either shared by other people or not. If they are not - there's no point talking on the forums.Just FYI: it is an instagib on any medium build below 25k health though if Lethal Arrow crits & you catch them not dodge rolling for a second.
This is easy to calculate.
On full impen med armor you'll get 0.5+0.1+0.25-0.445 = 40.5% crit damage bonus. Or 49.5% if you run shadow mundus.
Assumed you got 25% crit bonus from cp and the target has ~3.2k crit res.
So you're damage before crit should be 25k/1.5 = 16.6k.
I assume 20% dmg bonus from magelight and no mark on the target, so target resistance will be ~17k - 2.7k (if you use sharpened) - penetration from cp. Let's say you got 4k pen from cp. Resulting resistance will be 10.3k or about 0.85 of damage remained after armor.
I assume your cp bonuses to direct damage are compensated by his cp bonuses to the defense against direct damage for simplicity.
This way your tooltip damage of snipe should be 16.6k/0.85/1.2 (magelight) / 1.5 (asylum) *2 (cyro debuff) ) ~= 21.6k .
Are you able to achieve ~21k tooltip damge of snipe in cyro selfbuffed without magelight?
That's for 25k target snipe crit damage.
For say 23k (taking into account the spray) this will be 23k/1.5/0.85/1.2/1.5*2 ~= 20k tooltip snipe value.
Do you have these numbers?Ok, if you think so : ))
I guess you've already tried it out and come to that conclusion.
You think differently? Pressing 3 buttons from within 20m circle around the target, while having all time in the world to find the right moment is somehow comparable to split second reaction to various attacks of say 3 people?Does it? Depends highly on whom you're fighting - there are still builds with very little (or in many cases zero) undodgeable abilities.
Dodge is just one defense. I rely on block more than on dodge. Precisely because more abilities can be blocked than dodged.If this burst could be reliably applied then we could talk about it being broken. But it isn't, as you so kindly put it yourself.
In the end, there are very few completely reliable ways of bursting someone.
Incap can get dodge rolled, DBOS can get blocked, Overload can get dodged, Meteor can be blocked etc... In the end, I think the only "reliable" burst in the game is the Meteor>Rune Cage combo, which luckily doesn't deal the kind of damage to one shot most people.
Can you align the burst without stealth on an aware target? Really simple distinction.If anything, that serves as an argument to add more such skills to other classes & modifying existing skills to better accommodate the kiting playstyle.
You think that because things are bad, they should stay bad, which is flawed thinking.
it's not about abilities. It's about the combat system itself. If you add a teleport to everybody kitting won't be a thing anyway.Besides, what was it if not "wishful thinking", a demand for change, that got the game's API fixed & the toxic elements of your addon gone?
They do listen. Sometimes.
If i didn't support your efforts you'd most likely get nothing. 2-3 people in a dying thread aren't vocal enough.
You didn't understand it that time, i don't expect you to understand it now.Gap closer spam and/or speed potions is really the only thing that can really mess you up.
So, anything?:) What would the guy who marked you do, but to gapclose you while you're trying to run away? Wait for you to restealth?Yes, I choose to be one of the 4-5 people in Cyrodiil who don't run a 2H on stamblade and play a build in which 2H would be a downgrade in efficiency.
I don't see how that's a problem - we need more builds like this that chip away the established, stale meta.
The problem is not in trying to expand the meta. The problem is in trying to expand the meta in this way.
Imagine i'd try to expand the meta, by making instagib builds... oh wait!
Judging by the fact that people waited years to get a buff to it - nope:)So you're saying bows' intended role isn't killing people?I kinda just jumped to the most obvious conclusion, but let's hear you out.
As i said multiple times if 28m weapon is at least as effective as melee at 'killing people' all melee weapons will be obsolete. How would it help to increase the diversity?:)Hmm. Hmmm....
I guess that's why every melee mDKs, Templars & NBs don't exist - because ranged is always preferred to melee.
Perfectly clear.
They exist precisely because melee is better. Please follow the discussion:)
You, on the other hand, propose to shift this balance. And as soon as it happens you won't see 'melee mDKs, Templars & NBs' anymore.
Can't disagree with that.
If anything, that tells us bow needs more improvements to make it viable elsewhere as well.
How would you propose to buff 2h, dw and s&b when bow becomes on par with them?Really? I'd like to see how you "counter" gap closer spam as a bow build. Especially without cloak (or BoL).
CC, image, roots (that's if you don't want to cloak).That's precisely what makes playing a bow build a different experience: you're not just animation canceling skills at people non-stop & using your defensive skills to stay out of burst range in a non-stop loop of repeating the same rotations over and over again. No, you've actually got to do things differently.
Differently as in 'much easier'?:) Because many of the 'meta nb builds' do burst from cloak and run away to cloak quite often:) That's besides other things, that 'assassins' ignore.Someone trying to restealth is still very much fighting you, they just know they can't do so on melee range because that is the weakness of their build.
In my book 'fighting' means trading blows. Attacking and defending. They are not fighting you. They are spamming stuff for you to die before restealthing.As mentioned before, the game needs more skills on other classes that allow you to maintain that distance & changes to skills like Bombard & Scatter Shot to make them more viable. 28m range on Scatter Shot alone would be a gamechanger for bow builds' viability considering how effective Flame Reach is on kiting oriented magicka builds.
You got it. Scatter shot 28m. Bombard is 28m and undodgeable. How would you buff melee weapons?:)Edited by Dorrino on March 31, 2018 12:56AM0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭[
It is what it is, better than having no stealth oriented builds at all.
This is where i disagree.
It´s the only form of play that aims to deny participation entirely for the victim. It´s from it´s very nature absolutely selfish and disrespectful towards the people you´re playing against as the ideal encounter means they can´t play.
Nope better have no stealth oriented builds at all.
Every MMO needs a stealth mechanic. ESO does too, only not in the state it’s in right now. Cloak needs to be a combat break (imo) that’s used every now and then and that does exactly that - breaks combat completely. It shouldn’t be a spammable tool for mid combat shenanigans.
Stealthy chars in eso should be focused more around being stealthy while not combat (e.g. moving around in cyro).
Imo this is what cloak should be reworked to:
While it’s on your bar, the sneak cost is removed and you gain the dark stalker vampire passive. You also have a very very small detection radius. Upon activation (10-12k mag + cooldown) it immediately takes you out of combat, puts you into sneak and gives you a 3 second invincibility to all incoming damage (so you can escape). If the player attacks he can very well break cloak, but the cooldown will still be in place.0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭
While it’s on your bar, the sneak cost is removed and you gain the dark stalker vampire passive. You also have a very very small detection radius. Upon activation (10-12k mag + cooldown) it immediately takes you out of combat, puts you into sneak and gives you a 3 second invincibility to all incoming damage (so you can escape). If the player attacks he can very well break cloak, but the cooldown will still be in place.
Kinda agree with this.
The only problem is that currently without cloak, stamblades have really bad defenses. especially in medium.
I'd think more along the lines of stacking reduction of cloak duration (-1sec, -1.5 sec) on subsequent applications within 6-10 sec. Along with purge on cloak.
This will prevent cloak spam, won't punish much for a single cloak breaking and provide an always useful utility for personal survival.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In many games they did (and still do, if the game has lots of gear progression) kill from the opener. Or they'd stunlock you to death if your CC break was on cooldown.
Do you have reasoning as to why having those above benefits the player's experience in any shape or form?
Many mmos have their business models designed around frustration. 'You die in one-shot? Get our exp boost, premium gear, combat boost' etc etc. The desire to have all that you mentioned in the game is justified from the publisher's standpoint. But is it justified from players' viewpoint?
Apparently, or else they wouldn't keep playing.In all of those games though, stealth was meaningful and had more uses than potentially stunning someone, watching them do the cooldownless CC Break, shield up & reset the fight - which is exactly what ESO stealth gameplay boils down to unless you instagib your opponent.
Let's imagine a game when everybody's stealthed and everybody's insta gibs their opponent if they find them. Do you consider that a fun skillful environment?
Because i recall some people using this argument. 'it doesn't matter if i die to a one-shot. What matters is i can kill anyone with one.'. Does this philosophy sound familiar to you?
The thing is you keep avoid the question, but what about your target? What about their frustration? What about their powerlessness?
If you share the attitude above this will make sense.
Right, pardon me for hurting some dodge roll monkey's or shield stacker's feelings and if I ruined their super skilled gameplay.
I would love to ruin it in some other interesting fashion that revolves around stealth & the rogue/assassin style gameplay I associate myself with, but unfortunately that isn't possible.
Out of curiosity, did you ask yourself those questions back when your addon made them feel weak and powerless on stealth oriented builds?Just FYI: it is an instagib on any medium build below 25k health though if Lethal Arrow crits & you catch them not dodge rolling for a second.
This is easy to calculate.
On full impen med armor you'll get 0.5+0.1+0.25-0.445 = 40.5% crit damage bonus. Or 49.5% if you run shadow mundus.
Assumed you got 25% crit bonus from cp and the target has ~3.2k crit res.
Full impen medium armor & 54 points into Resistant (you'll want 66 in Ironclad) gets you 3105 crit resistance, meaning 47% crit mitigation, which is subtracted directly from the crit modifier (79% in my case with 52 in Precise Strikes), leaving me with 32% crit damage.So you're damage before crit should be 25k/1.5 = 16.6k.
18 939*I assume 20% dmg bonus from magelight and no mark on the target, so target resistance will be ~17k - 2.7k (if you use sharpened) - penetration from cp. Let's say you got 4k pen from cp. Resulting resistance will be 10.3k or about 0.85 of damage remained after armor.
I don't run Magelight (light attack/bombard are the first attacks to land with this build).
Also, no medium armor rollerblade has 17k mitigation: you get 11 991 with a 5/1/1 setup unless you're spamming Cloak/Fear or run some other source of Major Resolve which you've magically decided to cast right before you get Asylum Sniped out of nowhere.
You got the penetration quite right though, 4112 with Nirnhoned weapon.I assume your cp bonuses to direct damage are compensated by his cp bonuses to the defense against direct damage for simplicity.
They aren't. There are far less CPs for mitigation than there are for damage, and people divide those CPs between defense vs magicka builds & defense vs stamina builds and they're all calculated multiplicatively with the remaining armor mitigation.
Assuming an optimal, balanced allocation you should be getting 9% physical mitigation & 22% direct dmg mitigation.
Using a damage mitigation calculator we can calculate that to mean 37,46% mitigation.This way your tooltip damage of snipe should be 16.6k/0.85/1.2 (magelight) / 1.5 (asylum) *2 (cyro debuff) ) ~= 21.6k .
Are you able to achieve ~21k tooltip damge of snipe in cyro selfbuffed without magelight?
That's for 25k target snipe crit damage.
For say 23k (taking into account the spray) this will be 23k/1.5/0.85/1.2/1.5*2 ~= 20k tooltip snipe value.
Do you have these numbers?
It's 11 562+(8% Marksman+8% Minor Berserk+5% Hawk's Eye+23% Master-at-Arms+13% Mighty+4% Long Shots-50% Battle Spirit=11%)=12 833 after Battle Spirit, assuming first Light Attack lands after Lethal Arrow thus not buffing it by another 5% from Hawk Eye passive.
That's how you calculate passives btw.
Next step:
12 833+50% (Asylum being DmgTaken debuff is calculated after other buffs)=19 249-37,46% (mitigation)=12 038+32% (crit)=15 890
After that you add Bombard
5276+21%*=6383 (after Battle spirit)-37,46%=3991+32%(crit)=5268
Light Attack
3006+11%=3336 (after Battle spirit)-37,46%=2086+32%(crit)=2753
another Bombard
5088+16%**=5902 (after Battle spirit)-37,46%=3691+32%(crit)=4872
...and another Light Attack
3006+21%=3637 (after Battle Spirit)-37,46%=2274+32%(crit)=3001
*Also buffed by Bosmer stealth passive by additional 10%. Also gains Master Assassin weapon damage.
**Also buffed by Hawk Eye passive by 5%.
***Also buffed by Hawk Eye passive by 10%.
You can land all that (first Bombard, LA & Lethal Arrow during the same burst that stuns, and another Bombard+Light Attack before anyone can CC Break and dodge).
So let's add it up:
15 890
5268
2753
4872
3001
--
31 784
Could add enchant as well, but I run tri-stat drain poisons for sustain so meh.
Yes, the numbers are there - don't even have to crit everything (just the Lethal Arrow & initial Bombard which is a guaranteed crit).Ok, if you think so : ))
I guess you've already tried it out and come to that conclusion.
You think differently? Pressing 3 buttons from within 20m circle around the target, while having all time in the world to find the right moment is somehow comparable to split second reaction to various attacks of say 3 people?
You don't have all the time in the world, there are other people in stealth that can reveal you & being within 20m range you can get hit by things like Magelight or random AoEs. Unless we're talking of ganking someone in the middle of nowhere looking at a map.
Hitting people riding between keeps for example isn't that easy, you have to calculate the distance as they ride & line the Bombard/Acid Spray to hit them as you account for the lag... which kinda makes me think of how spotters measure the wind & distance for snipers lolIf this burst could be reliably applied then we could talk about it being broken. But it isn't, as you so kindly put it yourself.
In the end, there are very few completely reliable ways of bursting someone.
Incap can get dodge rolled, DBOS can get blocked, Overload can get dodged, Meteor can be blocked etc... In the end, I think the only "reliable" burst in the game is the Meteor>Rune Cage combo, which luckily doesn't deal the kind of damage to one shot most people.
Can you align the burst without stealth on an aware target? Really simple distinction.
Sure.
Many people just don't realize they need to dodge roll that, I guess they've grown too complacent with the typical Hundings Rage snipe spammers.
Some overestimate their shield stacking power & get rekt by Ballista->Asylum Snipe.
Needless to say, chances of landing that burst & actually killing someone go down a lot though, which is something that a build with limited sustain really doesn't want to happen.
And no way you can do that on a squishy build while being focused by multiple people.If anything, that serves as an argument to add more such skills to other classes & modifying existing skills to better accommodate the kiting playstyle.
You think that because things are bad, they should stay bad, which is flawed thinking.
it's not about abilities. It's about the combat system itself. If you add a teleport to everybody kitting won't be a thing anyway.
Doesn't have to be a teleport. Cloak is a good example of a skill that allows you to kite people (to some degree), same with Shadow Image.
Also worth noting is that sorcs do have a teleport, yet they are still much easier to kite than gap closer spammers.Besides, what was it if not "wishful thinking", a demand for change, that got the game's API fixed & the toxic elements of your addon gone?
They do listen. Sometimes.
If i didn't support your efforts you'd most likely get nothing. 2-3 people in a dying thread aren't vocal enough.
You didn't understand it that time, i don't expect you to understand it now.
I don't even... you do realize that thread went over 20 pages & got over 100 Agrees, which must be the forum record (or close to)? Dying thread
Of course not, they're playing exactly as someone who slots all the available counters against a rare non-meta build should.Yes, I choose to be one of the 4-5 people in Cyrodiil who don't run a 2H on stamblade and play a build in which 2H would be a downgrade in efficiency.
I don't see how that's a problem - we need more builds like this that chip away the established, stale meta.
The problem is not in trying to expand the meta. They problem is in trying to expand the meta in this way.
Imagine i'd try to expand the meta, by making instagib builds... oh wait!
If you have better ideas on how to expand the meta, speak to ZOS.
One can't make builds that aren't possible to create due to lacking design space.
Well that's just a poor argument. We also waited for almost over a year for them to get the API in order, and then they fixed it.
Besides, bow actually used to be extremely strong during the early years.
You could do what the Asylum Snipe combo does, except from 28m away and without having to aim a Bombard.
In any case, I'll keep posting & making threads until they buff those few bow abilities which are severely lacking currently.I kinda just jumped to the most obvious conclusion, but let's hear you out.
As i said multiple times if 28m weapon is at least as effective as melee at 'killing people' all melee weapons will be obsolete. How would it help to increase the diversity?:)Hmm. Hmmm....
I guess that's why every melee mDKs, Templars & NBs don't exist - because ranged is always preferred to melee.
Perfectly clear.
They exist precisely because melee is better. Please follow the discussion:)
You, on the other hand, propose to shift this balance. And as soon as it happens you won't see 'melee mDKs, Templars & NBs' anymore.
One moment you say ranged is always preferred to melee and next you say melee is better.
Can you please decide? Or just admit you're talking bs.
All of these classes have access to strong abilities such as Destructive Clench/Reach, Crushing Shock, Elemental Drain etc etc as well as amazing passives, yet many (not all, there are plenty of ranged magicka NBs & ranged magplars) still choose to go melee with their builds.
That sounds balanced to me, why not have the same with bow?
Eh, with some exceptions (e.g. DW Ulti, Rapid Strikes & maybe Brawler) I think the weapon skill lines offer good skills that can already supplement the strong variety of melee skills & abilities present in class skill lines.
I don't think they need any buffs, where as bow skills such as Scatter Shot & Bombard do.
Right, good luck with that.That's precisely what makes playing a bow build a different experience: you're not just animation canceling skills at people non-stop & using your defensive skills to stay out of burst range in a non-stop loop of repeating the same rotations over and over again. No, you've actually got to do things differently.
Differently as in 'much easier'?:) Because many of the 'meta nb builds' do burst from cloak and running away to cloak quite often:) That's besides other things, that 'assassins' ignore.
If you think escaping on a bow build is easier, you're delusional.
A melee rollerblade can stay in melee range & still present a danger by being able to Incap->Relentless at any moment.
A bow build deals virtually no damage there and the only recourse is to create distance. It's not an option, it's an obligation.
You also don't have things like Rally heals or Troll King to carry you on a bow build and your sustain is actually limited, not infinite.
It is an entirely different experience.Someone trying to restealth is still very much fighting you, they just know they can't do so on melee range because that is the weakness of their build.
In my book 'fighting' means trading blows. Attacking and defending. They are not fighting you. They are spamming stuff for you to die before restealthing.
"spamming stuff", that is precisely the part of combat I find uninteresting & monotonous. On pretty much all my NB builds (both melee & ranged builds) I prefer to deal the damage in short targeted bursts rather than build around infinite sustain & just spam skills until target dies.As mentioned before, the game needs more skills on other classes that allow you to maintain that distance & changes to skills like Bombard & Scatter Shot to make them more viable. 28m range on Scatter Shot alone would be a gamechanger for bow builds' viability considering how effective Flame Reach is on kiting oriented magicka builds.
You got it. Scatter shot 28m. Bombard is 28m and undodgeable. How would you buff melee weapons?:)
To be fair, they don't need to buff Bombard range as that'd make Asylum Bow too strong. Making it work like every other AoE in the game would be fair though. After all, they buffed Steel Tornado & Brawler and made those undodgeable.
Scatter Shot being 28m would only bring it in line with skills such as Destructive Reach & Binding Javelin and it'd actually synergize with the rest of the bow kit, rather than being a skill only melee builds find useful.
Anyway, I've said what I've had to say & anything from this point onwards is likely to just be part of a circular argument I'd rather not be a part of.
I apologize for your thread getting so derailed @Volsers , I feel I'm partly to blame for that. Keep making awesome videos ^^Edited by DDuke on March 31, 2018 2:24AM1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In most MMOs I've played, the stealth class has always initiated the fight from stealth, it's not really some feature unique to ESO.
This is correct.
They didn't kill from the opener though and to be considered balanced. If they did - the game changed to prevent that.
Strong (and in 'drastically reducing chances for retaliation') openers in each game were considered detrimental to the said game.
ESO is no exception.Oh, so exactly how effective is your rollerblade when it gets one shot by Asylum Snipe?
They are not getting one-shot. I described the problem above. We moved from a zero retaliation one-shot 1v1 to huge chunk of health in 1vx.
Additionally this argument is along the lines of 'and how your build helps you if you're afk?'. Not being provided retaliation strategy equals to being afk for all intents and purposes.Ah, so you think there's no learning curve to stealth builds? That's hilarious. If it were true, everyone would be playing these builds and getting kills left & right, but it's not as easy as you think.
Anything in this life has a learning curve. This 'assassin' playstyle has much shorter time to reach a similar effectiveness to most other builds.
The argument is not 'no learning at all vs a lot of learning'. It's about 'hugely decreased learning time vs much longer one'.In fact, I'd say being efficient on a bow build is significantly more difficult than just spamming dodge rolls & cloaks until Incap->Relentless is up again.
This is another example of a gimmick. But at least it provides a rather large opportunity for both prevention and retaliation.One could make that argument just by pointing out at how many people are playing rollerblades currently & being effective with them in comparison to bow builds.
Non-ganking nightblades? Almost nobody in NA vivec. I personal know 3-4 names at best.That entire paragraph is so filled with contradictions that I don't even know where to begin.
Bow/bow doesn't work good at bursting people, but then it does when you use the correct gear?
Doesn't have the burst means - doesn't have a reliable way of applying the said burst. Anything in this game can have a lot of damage. Even resto/resto.
Resto/resto and bow/bow are similar in the sense that both need very specific gimmicks to perform. Unlike non-gimmick builds that work universally.I wonder how well those rollerblades sustain without all those Eternal Hunts & Shacklebreakers etc?
They would use other sources of resources regen.
Sustain can be achieved in my different ways. It doesn't rely on specific sets.That's why you can't really play bow build on other classes currently (though in theory stam sorc with BoL can work) and is the reason why other classes need similar damage avoidance/kiting tools.
This game, unlike wow, doesn't support kiting playstyles besides limited gimmicks like Shadow Image.
The main reason is to kite you need to be drastically faster than you target while doing damage. Which is usually achieved by applying slows and roots.
In this game both slows and roots are immuned for arbitrary duration.
This is another part of wishful thinking.
You want kiting to work in a game where kiting doesn't work by design.Though if you do get marked with this build it's fairly easy to still escape with speed potion>sprint with 7 medium, unless you're being chased by someone with gap closer and/or speed potions as well.
Speed pots give the same major expedition as all other sources of such. Like dodge on the bow bar, warden's wings etc.
So running away marked has very limited applications.
Unless we're talking about bad players then this dialog is pointless again since everything works against them. Even resto/resto.Another skill element to these builds is being able to escape with limited sustain & a very squishy character with healing limited to Vigor.
This is not an intrinsic limitation of the build.
On the contrary you choose to have that to increase your damage. And this trade-off pays off only because of the current implementation of stealth.
It's the same thing as with sorcs shields. Sorcs are uniquely allowed to stack less defenses (and increase their damage), because shields can not be critted.
Both are obviously imbalanced due to oversights in the combat system.Well, that's what bows tend to do.
Hunter in WoW? Ranger in GW2 or BDO?
Here you compare classes designed with specific weapons in mind (and restricted from using many other weapons) to a game where no weapon has to be the main damage dealing weapon.
In both WoW and GW2 the relevant classes have to be albe to be effective with ranged weapons. Especially wow where there's no option otherwise.
In ESO all weapons are arbitrary and very presence of a weapon doesn't imply it's effective intended role.What do you think bows are supposed to do?
Provide some damage from the safety of huge distance to the target.
As soon as bows will provide the same damage (and means of delivering this damage) as melee options nobody would use melee options. Ranged is always preferred to melee. In any game. And in life:) There's a reason projectiles based weapons made swords and maces obsolete.Universal. You said it yourself, there's very little variation with meta builds. You've seen one of them, you've seen all.
I'm happy bowblade feels different to play in every respect. Different defense. Different offense. Different awareness.
For some reason you equate 'universal' with 'identical'.
'Universal' means 'similarily effective in all simulations. This effectiveness can be achieved by drastically different means.
GW2 is a good example here. Drastically different elite specs mechanics can achieve very similar results. But differently.
In ESO for instance 2h/bow or dw/2h are universal weapon setups. They work in almost any imaginable situations (especcially 2h/bow). While bow/bow works only from stealth.We need more of that in ESO.
Here i obviously agree that we need more diversity in effective builds.Maybe everyone should unslot gap closers because I don't find them fun when playing my bow builds?
Or maybe we should just get along with the fact that builds can have different strengths and weaknesses.
Gap closers, like literally anything else in the game provide options for counterplay.
Anything besides burst from stealth.
It is unique in this respect.So them trying to restealth & create distance isn't part of the fight? In that part of the fight you prevent them from doing that & you're at a significant advantage until they manage to restealth again. Leverage that advantage.
No, because they don't fight you.
The situation is merely reversed.
When they try to gank - there's no fight because you're not participating.
When they try to restealth, there's no fight because they are not participating.Besides, I've killed plenty of people even after the initial burst fails to kill someone.
Yep. When those people still failed to deliver a counterplay. Even after becoming aware they are under attack.
As i said above i don't consider examples based on bad players. Anything works with them.Yeah, I do hope ZOS makes some bow improvements in the next Chapter so that it is able to compete in duels as well.
But duels are only a small part of the PvP.
They are. I'm not advocating for duels. I'm advocating for fair fights, that require a chance on retaliation. People might not use that chance, but it has to be there.
I've fought many many rollerblades, including yours..everyone of them would of most certainly been no where near as effective as they were without Eternals.
Also as someone who created the most popular Ranger Spec in GW2, you didn't need a bow in that game at all on Ranger.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0