Incoherent Balance and Unbridled Bias - Cloak is Fine, Streak is Nerfed

Dyride · March 2018

I don't want to see huge nerfs/stacking cost increase. I understand Cloak isn't perfectly reliable and often times you spam it twice to get it to "stick," and force miss delayed attacks etc. that could have pulled you out of cloak. Maybe a base cost increase but I still don't think that is needed.

I really don't mind that Magicka Nightblades can be so slippery. That is the draw and signature of the playstyle. Stamblade crit healing is very strong atm I think, whether or not this is intended by ZOS.

I don't think Incap needs a huge nerf as well, I think a cost increase would adversely effect PVE. Instead I think the sound effect should be moved to earlier in the animation.

Too many times, I hear an Ambush/Incap combo coming in, reactively block or dodge, and think I will be ok only to find myself on the ground. This is potentially latency/syncing but Incap also has one of the buggiest CCs alongside fear animations.

Really, while Incap is hard hitting and Befoul is slightly overtuned, I usually find that what ultimately contributed to my dying was either a buggy CC immunity/break-free and dodge-roll having a adverse GCD for using a potion.

I hate dodge-rolling, waiting what seems like an appropriate amount of time, hitting my potion and hearing the potion "chime" only to not see resources return or potion actually used. This delay isn't typically as detrimental facing other classes but the burst potential for stamblades can make it very hard to recover if you miss a potion for 2-3 secs.

However, if I am forced to use a detect potion to counter a cloaking NB, I get extremely frustrated seeing "Miss, Miss, Miss" as my single target abilities are still force missed if cloak is recently cast.

Having to cast an AOE to pull them from cloak, then refocusing single target shouldn't have to happen if you are burning a potion and giving yourself only a 15 secs Detection window with a huge 30 sec window of no potion buffs. NBs have other defenses to survive those 15 secs: Positioning, Dampen/Healing Ward, Shadow Image, Vigor/Rally, alongside Block and Roll Dodge.

I would want to see Detect Potions only work for user, and make it so that "detecting" and literally seeing a NB right in front of you, should allow your single target abilities to land.

King_Thelon · March 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

we see you inGame immediately target and Kill within seconds any nightblades

I am The Anomoly KING THELON, Stealer of Scrolls and Crusher of Souls. Of course I will dispatch you and all potatoblades with the wave of my hand in a well-lit mode. Only the Greatest of Ninjas, having spent their lives within the dojo, can hope to touch my cloth and live to tell of its softness.

Minalan · March 2018

Again everyone, this is a ‘buff streak’ thread, not ‘nerf nightblades’ thread.

We’re trying to address problems with Sorc defenses. No they’re NOT fine.

Xeven · March 2018

Looking at it objectively and having used a "full power" streak in the past, it was indeed overpowered. I also believe that cloak is either overpowered or detect pots are underpowered. Heavy armor is overpowered. Proc/cancer sets are overpowered and many, many other things...

I would ask for one, or some combination of the following:

● The stacking cost lowered to that of dodge roll
● The bolt escape fatigue debuff duration reduced
● The bolt escape fatigue debuff to not be applied when you do damage with the ability
● The self root removed
● The distance increased

OutLaw_Nynx · March 2018

So much salt

ol_BANK_lo · March 2018

King_Thelon wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel

10 updates ago, you nerfed streak to the ground, making sorcerer the only class in the history of the game that is punished with a stacking cost to an ability:

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

Bolt Escape: This ability no longer reduces out-of-combat Magicka recovery after casting. We have also increased the cost for Bolt Escape by 50%, which stacks with each cast within four seconds.

Sorcerer's escaping or resetting fights at will is OP. Nightblade's escaping or resetting fights at will is fine.

You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.

This post is laughable. I still see streak used almost infinitely. They are one of the strongest PVP classes in the game... AND they can escape at will. Cloak should have the same cost increase with each use...and so should mist form. I have bad names for people who use these skills....especially infinitely (and I see people use all of them infinitely).

fatmanatcomp · March 2018

why not just stand, fight and live or die. This is a game of tree hugging, rock sucking, benny hill trains of hide and seek.

Malamar1229 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Streak and Cloak are EXTREMELY different. You can escape pretty much 100% of the time after streaking 4 times. There is no guarantee that you'll escape if you spam cloak 8 times

@NyassaV

Streaking 4 times not only bleeds every MagSorc in the game dry, but every player with access to a snare, root and / or gap closer says lol. Please friend go play MagSorc solo for 100 hours and try for yourself.

Streak is fine the way it is. It was absolutely overpowered without the increasing cost.

Hope you don't mind that I cut your text a bit short. But streak is not fine. Every single gap closer counters it. It would be absolutely fine if it gave a short gap closer immunity. So we still have to streak twice but at least we could get away.

And how is that better with Cloak? And what do classes like Templar or DK that have neither Cloak nor Streak do? They can't get away.

Streak as it is now is still better than no Streak, isn't it?

DK and Templar are not supposed to be mobile to begin with

That doesn't make it better in any way. And why aren't they supposed to be mobile? Who said that? Why are MagBlades and MagSorcs supposed to be mobile?

Because for one, light armor

Malamar1229 · March 2018

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

@Tan9oSuccka

Good stuff, now rank them in terms of mobility. If you haven't been using forward momentum + immovable speed pots + sprint on your stam builds, I'd suggest giving it a shot.

1. NB (When cloak actually works)
2. Sorcerer
3. Warden

Templar and DK have nothing, except potions which everyone has access to.

I already use speed and lingering pots or immovable potions for Stam characters. FM/rally depending on the build.

You're high as a kite if you rank warden 3rd...

Thunderknuckles · March 2018

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.

Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.

Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.

Plus Streak stuns and damages nearby enemies. 1000% positive my Cloak doesn't do that, plus it costs a ton of magicka to use.

Bam_Bam · March 2018

King_Thelon wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, Sorcs bragging about Nightblades. As a DK or Templar I'd wish to have the nerfed Streak because it is still better than everything my class has.

Sorcerers and Nightblades are the two classes that really should not complain about anything in that regard.

@Seraphayel

Friend please go play 100 hours solo on a MagSorc. You will quickly learn that EVERY STAMINA CLASS has better mobility. Forward momentum + sprint outshines MagSorc's class-defining "escape" mechanism by miles.

HUH? You are a wizard - you don't need mobility. You just stand there and spam shields that heal you, shields that give magicka back, your daftly poswerful light and heavy attacksplus your knock backs, plus your massive insane AoEs - elemental blockade and hey why not through in a destro ulti 2 (and rcystal frags and that other thing that procs and murders everyone).
In fact after all that, you're probably best jusy standing still and watching/laughing as the super-deadly NB electrocutes/immolates themselves and then you can pogo and flash awy into the sunset.

Bam_Bam · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Streak and Cloak are EXTREMELY different. You can escape pretty much 100% of the time after streaking 4 times. There is no guarantee that you'll escape if you spam cloak 8 times

@NyassaV

Streaking 4 times not only bleeds every MagSorc in the game dry, but every player with access to a snare, root and / or gap closer says lol. Please friend go play MagSorc solo for 100 hours and try for yourself.

Again, it has nothing to do with "perspective" as you said several times. Streak is fine the way it is. It was absolutely overpowered without the increasing cost. Cloak is different and too strong at the moment because it is bugged.

Streaking 4 times (or 6 times) and to lose all your Magicka: so what? If you're streaking that often you want to escape and not fight.

Streak is not the problem. The skill is fine the way it is. The problems here are a) classes missing something like Streak/Cloak entirely (-) and b) classes having something similar/better than Streak (+).

Cloak is broken. It doesn't work properly AT ALL. Put a Dot on a NB= no more sneaky freaky.

Xeven · March 2018

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.

Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.

Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.

Plus Streak stuns and damages nearby enemies. 1000% positive my Cloak doesn't do that, plus it costs a ton of magicka to use.

You can:
Cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other
Enter and exit combat at will
Get 100% dodge chance from everything while spamming cloak, even while detected with pots
Get 100% crit heals while in cloak
Never die with proper use of shade and cloak
STFU

Thunderknuckles · March 2018

Xeven wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.

Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.

Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.

Plus Streak stuns and damages nearby enemies. 1000% positive my Cloak doesn't do that, plus it costs a ton of magicka to use.

You can:
Cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other
Enter and exit combat at will
Get 100% dodge chance from everything while spamming cloak, even while detected with pots
Get 100% crit heals while in cloak
Never die with proper use of shade and cloak
STFU

Cloak from one side of Cryo to the other, huh? So now it teleports us across the whole zone? Cloak is constantly broken by all manner of things. I mean, based on what you stated above, you can't possibly have played a night blade past a starter zone. It's almost all I play. In Cyro it IS all I play. Cloak can be helpful, but it is by no means the "Lawl I Win!" skill.

Edited to add that if a skilled player is able to drop an AoE on where I happen to be moving while cloaked (for all of it's eternal 2.9 seconds) guess what happens? I get popped out.

Datthaw · March 2018

Xeven wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.

Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.

Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.

Plus Streak stuns and damages nearby enemies. 1000% positive my Cloak doesn't do that, plus it costs a ton of magicka to use.

You can:
Cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other
Enter and exit combat at will
Get 100% dodge chance from everything while spamming cloak, even while detected with pots
Get 100% crit heals while in cloak
Never die with proper use of shade and cloak
STFU

Not true at all, cloak spam does not give 100% evasion from everything. Just if you time it you will miss some single target things.

And shade is only really powerful in some places, like resource towers, open field it's just ok

King_Thelon · March 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.

Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.

Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.

Plus Streak stuns and damages nearby enemies. 1000% positive my Cloak doesn't do that, plus it costs a ton of magicka to use.

You can:
Cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other
Enter and exit combat at will
Get 100% dodge chance from everything while spamming cloak, even while detected with pots
Get 100% crit heals while in cloak
Never die with proper use of shade and cloak
STFU

Not true at all, cloak spam does not give 100% evasion from everything. Just if you time it you will miss some single target things.

And shade is only really powerful in some places, like resource towers, open field it's just ok

So would you trade cloak for streak in its current form?

griffkhalifa · March 2018

King_Thelon wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, Sorcs bragging about Nightblades. As a DK or Templar I'd wish to have the nerfed Streak because it is still better than everything my class has.

Sorcerers and Nightblades are the two classes that really should not complain about anything in that regard.

@Seraphayel

Friend please go play 100 hours solo on a MagSorc. You will quickly learn that EVERY STAMINA CLASS has better mobility. Forward momentum + sprint outshines MagSorc's class-defining "escape" mechanism by miles.

Here's an idea...since you spend so much time explaining why Nightblades are so OP why don't you just go make one and dominate Cyrodiil?

Minalan · March 2018

griffkhalifa wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, Sorcs bragging about Nightblades. As a DK or Templar I'd wish to have the nerfed Streak because it is still better than everything my class has.

Sorcerers and Nightblades are the two classes that really should not complain about anything in that regard.

@Seraphayel

Friend please go play 100 hours solo on a MagSorc. You will quickly learn that EVERY STAMINA CLASS has better mobility. Forward momentum + sprint outshines MagSorc's class-defining "escape" mechanism by miles.

Here's an idea...since you spend so much time explaining why Nightblades are so OP why don't you just go make one and dominate Cyrodiil?

Maybe, just maybe he wants to see more than just one class in battlegrounds and Cyrodiil?

This is about buffing streak, not changing cloak. Ironically, and oh so sadly ironically, nightblades complain about Sorcs the most.

LeagueTroll · March 2018

Make detect pot 100% uptime

Bam_Bam · March 2018

Xeven wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.

Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.

Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.

Plus Streak stuns and damages nearby enemies. 1000% positive my Cloak doesn't do that, plus it costs a ton of magicka to use.

You can:
Cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other
Enter and exit combat at will
Get 100% dodge chance from everything while spamming cloak, even while detected with pots
Get 100% crit heals while in cloak
Never die with proper use of shade and cloak
STFU

Stamblades can't spam cloak. DUH.

King_Thelon · March 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Make detect pot 100% uptime

Hard counters are trash tbh

Edziu · March 2018

also I dont want to say but I see I need to mention about it how cloak is just useless/wasted skill slot against classes like stamsorc with hurricane or just templar with jabs if you also dont have shade slotted
not small aoe nonstop hitting you + then perm snare at templar jabs so try to even use cloak against them without having specially shade slotted
this is same like saying this cloak is op because I dont want to use aoe/det pot or m,agelight against cloak because its to costly or something
with this same thinking I can say buff cloak because I dont want to slot shade against stamsorc and templars because its ruining my build, jabs and hurricane is op, nerf it

mb10 · March 2018

Yeah and nightblades dont have any class heals or shields idiot.

The stealth aspect is the WHOLE point of that class

ol_BANK_lo · March 2018

fatmanatcomp wrote: »

why not just stand, fight and live or die. This is a game of tree hugging, rock sucking, benny hill trains of hide and seek.

I'm not sure about the names you chose, but I and several other people literally fought (chased) a mist forming magplar for 10 minutes around rocks. Dumbest "fight" ever. Wtf is the point of build like that...and why is that possible if you can't regen during mist form. That's why I say streak is still used way too many times, and so is mist form and cloak. Give them all cost increases with each use. When a stam nb can constantly use cloak, you know there is a problem. And why do people not just fight? Don't know.

leothedino · March 2018

Change what you want, but do us trial and dungeon players a solid favour? When you do it, make sure it comes with the skill text "This skill, and its morphs, are changed whilst in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds".

3 second shields, increased costs, nerfing of abilities to reach nigh useless levels? Go for it, please, fill your boots. But for the love of all nine divines, keep it to your PVP please, the rest of us PVE'ers are sick to death of obnoxiously loud salty PVP players dictating how this game needs to be.

mb10 · March 2018

Streak is useful in PVE at least.

Cloak resets the whole fight if youre alone

mb10 · March 2018

GoodFella146 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

GoodFella146 wrote: »

Adding the Streak penalty to cloak seems pretty reasonable to me

Or how bout we keep cooldowns out of this game so it doesn't turn into guild wars.

Ok remove the Streak penalty then. Or even better give vampires a cloak so that every class can cloak

Erm invisibility potions do exist you know. Can get around 15 seconds invisible too lol you people just need to L2P and learn more about the game.

griffkhalifa · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

griffkhalifa wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, Sorcs bragging about Nightblades. As a DK or Templar I'd wish to have the nerfed Streak because it is still better than everything my class has.

Sorcerers and Nightblades are the two classes that really should not complain about anything in that regard.

@Seraphayel

Friend please go play 100 hours solo on a MagSorc. You will quickly learn that EVERY STAMINA CLASS has better mobility. Forward momentum + sprint outshines MagSorc's class-defining "escape" mechanism by miles.

Here's an idea...since you spend so much time explaining why Nightblades are so OP why don't you just go make one and dominate Cyrodiil?

Maybe, just maybe he wants to see more than just one class in battlegrounds and Cyrodiil?

This is about buffing streak, not changing cloak. Ironically, and oh so sadly ironically, nightblades complain about Sorcs the most.

So every class should have an escape tool, then? Then what's the point of having different classes? Streak made it so sorcs could literally just run away and reset a fight at will. Nightblades can cloak but you can still counter that with detect pots and other detect skills. Most people complain about stam blades, well let me tell you, stam blades run out of magicka pretty quickly if they are spamming cloak. Not to mention when they cloak they don't go very far, unlike streak.

griffkhalifa · March 2018

Also the implication of a "bias" is just kind of funny. It must have been how the developers were raised -- to hate all magicka builds. At a very young age their parents told them Sorcs suck so they took this bias with them into the development of this game. Yeah, that's it.

Chilly-McFreeze · March 2018

griffkhalifa wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

griffkhalifa wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, Sorcs bragging about Nightblades. As a DK or Templar I'd wish to have the nerfed Streak because it is still better than everything my class has.

Sorcerers and Nightblades are the two classes that really should not complain about anything in that regard.

@Seraphayel

Friend please go play 100 hours solo on a MagSorc. You will quickly learn that EVERY STAMINA CLASS has better mobility. Forward momentum + sprint outshines MagSorc's class-defining "escape" mechanism by miles.

Here's an idea...since you spend so much time explaining why Nightblades are so OP why don't you just go make one and dominate Cyrodiil?

Maybe, just maybe he wants to see more than just one class in battlegrounds and Cyrodiil?

This is about buffing streak, not changing cloak. Ironically, and oh so sadly ironically, nightblades complain about Sorcs the most.

So every class should have an escape tool, then? Then what's the point of having different classes? Streak made it so sorcs could literally just run away and reset a fight at will. Nightblades can cloak but you can still counter that with detect pots and other detect skills. Most people complain about stam blades, well let me tell you, stam blades run out of magicka pretty quickly if they are spamming cloak. Not to mention when they cloak they don't go very far, unlike streak.

And streak doesn't has any counters or what? But to ignore gap closers and snares seem to suit your argument better.