Iluvrien wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

Yes - it's one of the most annoying aspects of ESO. For once, the Lore argument is dumb - every TES game had starting bonuses - in each and every game you will eventually be as good as any race at any skill, ESO is the only one that doesn't follow this. Not to mention the passives themselves aren't all lore accurate.

Only when you are talking about skills.

Races did have "racial passives" in other games. For example, here are the non-skill, non-stat passives for Altmer in every game from Daggerfall (Ref. UESP):

Daggerfall

• Immunity to paralysis

Morrowind:

• Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%
• Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%
• Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%
• Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%
• Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%
• Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)

Oblivion:

• High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability: Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant
• High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
• High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim:

• Highborn ability: High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant
• Highborn greater power: Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.

And what are the passives in ESO? Destro staff, Magicka recovery, Max Magicka, and Elemental Talent. Two items on that list show up in Skyrim, one in Oblivion and one in Morrowind. ESO may be handling them differently (no weaknesses, for example) but it is not ignoring Lore in the way it does so.

So, by all means, let's talk about "dumb" arguments.

You are using a single race to make your point which is not a fair reflection.

Swimming Bonuses / Disease and Poison Resistance are theings we see for Argonian's throughout the series.
Orc's base is strenght, and while this game caters for carrying capacity differently to TES games, the racial passives still reflect a strength builg, hence the reason one of the earlier posts was from someone who wants to play as an Orc Sorc but finds themselves disadvantaged.

All I am saying is that if you are going to tear someone down for saying that the Lore of the game is a valid reason (which IMO it is) then use a fair and unbiased argument to do so.

Khajit's have always been theives / outcasts and remain so in this game. Some of that is reflected in their nature and some in their passives, such as sneak abilities.

You have to bear in mind that this is an MMO, whereas Oblivion / Skyrim etc are single player games. As such it is impractical to put weaknesses on races, since not all races have weaknesses in the game's Lore in an MMO environment.

BTW, to some extent weaknesses do exist, otherwise I presume you have not played as a Vampire and tried to do White Gold Tower.

I used a single race because otherwise my post would have been even longer. Just that.

In fact I originally wrote it using Dunmer, but changed to Altmer because it was one of the two races in Daggerfall (the other being Nord) that had a non-stat, non-skill passive.

My post was a direct refutation of that made by @Sardath who cited only the starting bonuses in previous games, not mentioning the non-skill, non-stat passives. As such, the use of a single race to disprove the point was entirely fair and unbiased.

I specifically mentioned that ESO didn't include racial weaknesses as a difference. I assumed that the reasons for ESO not including them would have been self-evident. It would seem not.

Are Vampire and doing WGT races? Do they then impinge on this discussion at all?

So an Argonian's starting bonus of Swimming advantages is irrelevant.

Vampires are not a class, but are they relevant to the discussion, yes, they have a weakness, and it was something I was pointing out in case you were not aware, hence the context I placed it in.

You pointed out the lack of weaknesses and never acknowledge that YOU understood why they were not in the game. I think from my post it is quite obvious that I do understand, Once again the reason for my mentioning this was to provide you information it seemed that you either discounted or were not aware of.

Iluvrien wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

Yes - it's one of the most annoying aspects of ESO. For once, the Lore argument is dumb - every TES game had starting bonuses - in each and every game you will eventually be as good as any race at any skill, ESO is the only one that doesn't follow this. Not to mention the passives themselves aren't all lore accurate.

Only when you are talking about skills.

Races did have "racial passives" in other games. For example, here are the non-skill, non-stat passives for Altmer in every game from Daggerfall (Ref. UESP):

Daggerfall

• Immunity to paralysis

Morrowind:

• Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%
• Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%
• Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%
• Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%
• Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%
• Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)

Oblivion:

• High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability: Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant
• High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
• High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim:

• Highborn ability: High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant
• Highborn greater power: Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.

And what are the passives in ESO? Destro staff, Magicka recovery, Max Magicka, and Elemental Talent. Two items on that list show up in Skyrim, one in Oblivion and one in Morrowind. ESO may be handling them differently (no weaknesses, for example) but it is not ignoring Lore in the way it does so.

So, by all means, let's talk about "dumb" arguments.

You are using a single race to make your point which is not a fair reflection.

Swimming Bonuses / Disease and Poison Resistance are theings we see for Argonian's throughout the series.
Orc's base is strenght, and while this game caters for carrying capacity differently to TES games, the racial passives still reflect a strength builg, hence the reason one of the earlier posts was from someone who wants to play as an Orc Sorc but finds themselves disadvantaged.

All I am saying is that if you are going to tear someone down for saying that the Lore of the game is a valid reason (which IMO it is) then use a fair and unbiased argument to do so.

Khajit's have always been theives / outcasts and remain so in this game. Some of that is reflected in their nature and some in their passives, such as sneak abilities.

You have to bear in mind that this is an MMO, whereas Oblivion / Skyrim etc are single player games. As such it is impractical to put weaknesses on races, since not all races have weaknesses in the game's Lore in an MMO environment.

BTW, to some extent weaknesses do exist, otherwise I presume you have not played as a Vampire and tried to do White Gold Tower.

I used a single race because otherwise my post would have been even longer. Just that.

In fact I originally wrote it using Dunmer, but changed to Altmer because it was one of the two races in Daggerfall (the other being Nord) that had a non-stat, non-skill passive.

My post was a direct refutation of that made by @Sardath who cited only the starting bonuses in previous games, not mentioning the non-skill, non-stat passives. As such, the use of a single race to disprove the point was entirely fair and unbiased.

I specifically mentioned that ESO didn't include racial weaknesses as a difference. I assumed that the reasons for ESO not including them would have been self-evident. It would seem not.

Are Vampire and doing WGT races? Do they then impinge on this discussion at all?

So an Argonian's starting bonus of Swimming advantages is irrelevant.

Vampires are not a class, but are they relevant to the discussion, yes, they have a weakness, and it was something I was pointing out in case you were not aware, hence the context I placed it in.

You pointed out the lack of weaknesses and never acknowledge that YOU understood why they were not in the game. I think from my post it is quite obvious that I do understand, Once again the reason for my mentioning this was to provide you information it seemed that you either discounted or were not aware of.

Why would an Argonian's swimming advantage be irrelevant when I was specifically showcasing how not all passives in the past have been skill based, and how many of those in ESO have been implemented in line with the Lore in past games. It is an example of exactly the point I was making.

Vampires are not relevant to the discussion because they are not a race. No race has implemented weaknesses that I am aware of. Vampirism is an example of how weaknesses could have been implemented (offsetting) but that wasn't the path that ZOS chose to take.

I didn't acknowledge why weaknesses aren't in the game because I thought it was so obvious it didn't need stating. As such, and because it didn't directly address my point in an already long post, I didn't include it.

My point, succinctly, is this:

• Past games have implemented passives that differentiated characters of different races even in the final stages of the game.
• The implementation of passives in ESO is not outside the realm of previously established behaviour.

Therefore: The Lore argument is not a dumb one.

In all honestly, had you said that to either start or end your original reply, there would have been no confusion on my part.

Your post was lengthy, and as such I appear to have misinterpreted what you were trying to get across.

I agree with your sentiments as stated here completely, and I apologise for misunderstanding your intended point.

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

difference is not as big as you may think it is...

The difference IS big if guilds wont even let you in a craglorn vet trial based on your paired race and build.

Those passives are impactfull for like 5% of the playerbase (if not even less) and for only a handfull of guilds on each server. For every other guild/player it's more like "this is meta, i only want meta, but i have no clue what it really does."
Excluding someone from craglorn trials (if not going for highscore...) bc of race has nothing to do with strong passives but with lots of stupidity.
I mean, just look at it from that way:
1. not enough DPS --> race won't change that bc it's a percentage-based buff
2. enough DPS --> why even care if not going for No.1-score

Why? You either want to min max or you don’t.

I voted yes, but I would settle for better balance between unique racial bonuses. Let's face it, some races have been pretty much trash for a very, very long time. So diversity can be achieved by removing racial bonuses, or making all races equally desirable, albeit in different ways.

Remove, make better for varied playstyles so some races aren't simply better at a certain role than others, re-add. Diversity is good, having a certain race being forced into a certain role in order to utilize their talents is bad.

"Oh, just ignore it, you don't need to be the best to play the game" you might say. Try saying that again next time there's a magicka based tank using dual wield and medium armor and only uses heals in your group. You don't have to be the best right?

By the way, if this were only a meta thing, it wouldn't be an issue, but there's no way, for example, that weapon crit on a Khajiit would be of any real use for a magicka build, no matter what the meta is at.

just lower it slightly so racials arent as potent for builds+classes

Marginis wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Remove, make better for varied playstyles so some races aren't simply better at a certain role than others, re-add. Diversity is good, having a certain race being forced into a certain role in order to utilize their talents is bad.

"Oh, just ignore it, you don't need to be the best to play the game" you might say. Try saying that again next time there's a magicka based tank using dual wield and medium armor and only uses heals in your group. You don't have to be the best right?

By the way, if this were only a meta thing, it wouldn't be an issue, but there's no way, for example, that weapon crit on a Khajiit would be of any real use for a magicka build, no matter what the meta is at.

So in short: You want to make all racial passives useless, so everyone gets the same benefit from them.
You could say the same about some class-passives which are useless for some speccs, do you want to make all of them useless aswell?
As i already stated...the difference is not that big, noticeable but not that big...only really important competitive gameplay. And even there, personal faults may have a bigger impact than those passives.

They'd only be useless if you think turning stamina boosts into stamina/magicka boosts would make them useless. Hell, I love stuff like better pickpocket chance, or boosted swim speed, so definitely keep those. All I want to do is make it so that a perfectionist completionist player, like myself, or a hardcore competitive player, like many, can choose a race and not have that determine if they are a stamina or magicka build.

The way it is currently, feels like Khajiit have to be sneaky thief DPSes, or Nords have to be big dumb tanks, or Redguards have to be good at basketball. Listen, there are plenty of Nords out there who are sneaky thieves who have no business with a sword and shield, and plenty of Khajiit, I can only assume, that are great at basketball. I just want the game to reflect that we have a variety of players and a diversity of characters (and not unnecessarily reinforce racial stereotypes).

But you can still play something you are not perfect in, you just go crazy bc you can't be the best mage as a khajit. But you can still be better than like 95% of all other mages if not even more...sometimes even critluck is more important than your race...

Just look at this. I'm really looking forward to when Zos will give us the opportunity to fully play with different races and classes.

Marginis wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Remove, make better for varied playstyles so some races aren't simply better at a certain role than others, re-add. Diversity is good, having a certain race being forced into a certain role in order to utilize their talents is bad.

"Oh, just ignore it, you don't need to be the best to play the game" you might say. Try saying that again next time there's a magicka based tank using dual wield and medium armor and only uses heals in your group. You don't have to be the best right?

By the way, if this were only a meta thing, it wouldn't be an issue, but there's no way, for example, that weapon crit on a Khajiit would be of any real use for a magicka build, no matter what the meta is at.

So in short: You want to make all racial passives useless, so everyone gets the same benefit from them.
You could say the same about some class-passives which are useless for some speccs, do you want to make all of them useless aswell?
As i already stated...the difference is not that big, noticeable but not that big...only really important competitive gameplay. And even there, personal faults may have a bigger impact than those passives.

They'd only be useless if you think turning stamina boosts into stamina/magicka boosts would make them useless. Hell, I love stuff like better pickpocket chance, or boosted swim speed, so definitely keep those. All I want to do is make it so that a perfectionist completionist player, like myself, or a hardcore competitive player, like many, can choose a race and not have that determine if they are a stamina or magicka build.

The way it is currently, feels like Khajiit have to be sneaky thief DPSes, or Nords have to be big dumb tanks, or Redguards have to be good at basketball. Listen, there are plenty of Nords out there who are sneaky thieves who have no business with a sword and shield, and plenty of Khajiit, I can only assume, that are great at basketball. I just want the game to reflect that we have a variety of players and a diversity of characters (and not unnecessarily reinforce racial stereotypes).

But you can still play something you are not perfect in, you just go crazy bc you can't be the best mage as a khajit. But you can still be better than like 95% of all other mages if not even more...sometimes even critluck is more important than your race...

So what you're saying is that, all else being equal, no matter what, Redguards should be better at basketball than Khajiit on the basis of them being Redguards? I prefer to think of ability as something that should be determined by training, not the color of your skin or the length of your tail.

No, i'm just saying: A redguard with exactly the same level of training, experience and so on should be a little bit better statwise than the khajiit. Without leaving khajiit without chances. and that's more or less how it is.
(on top of that: redguard and khajiit are more or less equal in terms of stam-DPS in pve so the example/comparison is extremely bad imo)

Destruent wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Remove, make better for varied playstyles so some races aren't simply better at a certain role than others, re-add. Diversity is good, having a certain race being forced into a certain role in order to utilize their talents is bad.

"Oh, just ignore it, you don't need to be the best to play the game" you might say. Try saying that again next time there's a magicka based tank using dual wield and medium armor and only uses heals in your group. You don't have to be the best right?

By the way, if this were only a meta thing, it wouldn't be an issue, but there's no way, for example, that weapon crit on a Khajiit would be of any real use for a magicka build, no matter what the meta is at.

So in short: You want to make all racial passives useless, so everyone gets the same benefit from them.
You could say the same about some class-passives which are useless for some speccs, do you want to make all of them useless aswell?
As i already stated...the difference is not that big, noticeable but not that big...only really important competitive gameplay. And even there, personal faults may have a bigger impact than those passives.

They'd only be useless if you think turning stamina boosts into stamina/magicka boosts would make them useless. Hell, I love stuff like better pickpocket chance, or boosted swim speed, so definitely keep those. All I want to do is make it so that a perfectionist completionist player, like myself, or a hardcore competitive player, like many, can choose a race and not have that determine if they are a stamina or magicka build.

The way it is currently, feels like Khajiit have to be sneaky thief DPSes, or Nords have to be big dumb tanks, or Redguards have to be good at basketball. Listen, there are plenty of Nords out there who are sneaky thieves who have no business with a sword and shield, and plenty of Khajiit, I can only assume, that are great at basketball. I just want the game to reflect that we have a variety of players and a diversity of characters (and not unnecessarily reinforce racial stereotypes).

But you can still play something you are not perfect in, you just go crazy bc you can't be the best mage as a khajit. But you can still be better than like 95% of all other mages if not even more...sometimes even critluck is more important than your race...

So what you're saying is that, all else being equal, no matter what, Redguards should be better at basketball than Khajiit on the basis of them being Redguards? I prefer to think of ability as something that should be determined by training, not the color of your skin or the length of your tail.

No, i'm just saying: A redguard with exactly the same level of training, experience and so on should be a little bit better statwise than the khajiit. Without leaving khajiit without chances. and that's more or less how it is.
(on top of that: redguard and khajiit are more or less equal in terms of stam-DPS in pve so the example/comparison is extremely bad imo)

Would it be better if I used Redguards compared to Nords?

What I'm saying is that gameplay-wise I'd like better balance and variety, particularly in combat. Your class, for example, is freely chosen and doesn't affect your appearance, so you can still choose the race you want for lore or other reasons. If you don't care about your character's race or appearance, good for you, but you shouldn't have an unfair advantage because of it, however small. That's partly why I really like how I can wear heavy armor now while still using the appearance of whatever gear I want, even if it is light or medium.

As far as lore/immersion-wise, it also works to even out the racial bonuses. What your argument is basically saying is that a race will be better at something purely because they're that race. It would be nice to be able to pick racials that fit with your character's RP backstory or upbringing, and would even work to benefit those who are competitive and go for the best builds. All this is to say it doesn't make sense that a character is better at something than another just because of their race, when realistically, a Nord who trained just as much as a Redguard could be just as good at basketball as them. It's the same reason there aren't bonus abilities for being a male or female anymore. Because saying that someone's inherently better at something because of their gender is sexist, just like your argument has racist undertones.

I highly doubt you intend it that way, and forgive me if you do, but like seriously, come on, there are better options out there than our current system. If nothing else, balance it better so every race has one magicka passive and one stamina passive, and these other issues wouldn't build on each other as much. It's just a videogame, yes, but if we're taking it seriously it deserves a serious answer: Say yes to balance and diversity, and no to imbalance and racism.

If we talk about Balance in terms of races: It doesn't mean all of them are equal, it just means all of them excell at something.
What you call/want as balance is just taking away one variable. Would you also agree to make all classscills (across classes) equal so they have just different visuals to achieve perfect class balance?

On the other hand: preferring someone bc he/she is better bc of numbers is different from preferring someone bc of his/her race. even if this is the same in this context.

Obviously you don't want to simply get rid of the bonuses, or make everyone's the same, but we want to do something to encourage a variety of playstyles with a variety of characters, I think. I think it's pretty boring, personally, when most tanks are Redguard Dragonknights, and you never get to see something like a Khajiit Nightblade tank. And then you could do other stuff, like a tribal shaman theme Orc healer or something. The way the system is set up now discourages that.

Then why have races anyway. Just make everyone human. No thanks. If I wanted to play a human, I'd just go outside.

Marginis wrote: »

Obviously you don't want to simply get rid of the bonuses, or make everyone's the same, but we want to do something to encourage a variety of playstyles with a variety of characters, I think. I think it's pretty boring, personally, when most tanks are Redguard Dragonknights, and you never get to see something like a Khajiit Nightblade tank. And then you could do other stuff, like a tribal shaman theme Orc healer or something. The way the system is set up now discourages that.

Then just play it that way if you want to. Your race don't make or break a build, but the player behind the character does.
Most tanks are (atleast iirc) are imperial (for stats) or argonian (for sustain). You can play as a khajiit, too. It's not that big of a deal, woeler for example does it pretty succesfully.

I used to play magplar, stamplar, tank and healer on my breton templar back in 1.5/1.6...it worked aswell...and back then races were a lot more meaningfull (especially in 1.6) than they are now.
But anyway...you don't want to make a choice by choosing your race, i always liked it as a part of min/maxing while still being able to play anything else with that character although it's not min/maxed.