Lynx7386 wrote: »

Can't believe people are actually defending the atrocious state siphoning attacks is in right now.

No resource/sustain skill should cost the same resource that it returns. Ever. That's exactly why they removed the cost from netch during morrowind testing - because an ability meant to help you get resources back is useless if it costs that resource to begin with.

Xvorg wrote: »

1- NBs make great DDs, that's why the class seems to be "OP"
2- NBs make "decent" healers, a step behind Warden and DK, but still better than Sorcs. The skill created to support that role (we can call it "bad Agony", which wasn't a great skill either), does little to support them. The natural skill to support that role, Strife was nerfed long ago, so the DD morph is the one to use (Swallow sould was a great concept, saddly it's not a wise choice nowadays)
3- NBs make awful tanks. It used to be an interesting choice when Sap Tanks were competitive, but the changes to Siph Strikes have hitten them hard, so, most of the skills created to support that role work as support for DD or are crap.

I think ZoS should improve NB tank and NB healer rolling back the changes done to Swallow Soul and Siphoning Strikes. In the case of "bad Agony", it should NEVER dmg the health bar. Even a dual cost in stam and magicka is more desirable than the stupid current design.

Xvorg wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

1- NBs make great DDs, that's why the class seems to be "OP"
2- NBs make "decent" healers, a step behind Warden and DK, but still better than Sorcs. The skill created to support that role (we can call it "bad Agony", which wasn't a great skill either), does little to support them. The natural skill to support that role, Strife was nerfed long ago, so the DD morph is the one to use (Swallow sould was a great concept, saddly it's not a wise choice nowadays)
3- NBs make awful tanks. It used to be an interesting choice when Sap Tanks were competitive, but the changes to Siph Strikes have hitten them hard, so, most of the skills created to support that role work as support for DD or are crap.

I think ZoS should improve NB tank and NB healer rolling back the changes done to Swallow Soul and Siphoning Strikes. In the case of "bad Agony", it should NEVER dmg the health bar. Even a dual cost in stam and magicka is more desirable than the stupid current design.

lol dk healers wut

You still have Meding associated to a shield compared to skill that dmgs you, And you can buff the group using Igneous

Feanor wrote: »

If you want to revert Siphoning to the old state then you’d have to adjust sustain elsewhere. Between a 15% regen increase on all stats through a passive (other classes would need to wear a 5pc set for that) and a skill that rewards you with extra resources for doing what you do anyway (light attack weaving) this might be a tiny little tad overpowered.

Feanor wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

If you want to revert Siphoning to the old state then you’d have to adjust sustain elsewhere. Between a 15% regen increase on all stats through a passive (other classes would need to wear a 5pc set for that) and a skill that rewards you with extra resources for doing what you do anyway (light attack weaving) this might be a tiny little tad overpowered.

Only the DD had a constant weave. NB tanks could perma block (with enough mobs present) with this skill so they were getting rewarded for the extra action of weaving. The changes to block cost mean that even if sphoning as restored to it's former glory, they could not perma block. It was a swap for them, 'stop block = get resources', it was not 'something they did anyway'. Unfortunately it needed to be that good for NB tanks to be sap tanks, which made it too good for DD.

The only real grievenace I have with this change is the class based changes were not fair across classes. My DK sustain went UP from them. Ramifications of it to some class/role combinatons were not acknowledged by ZOS. They did not say 'we want to remove NB sap tanks' they did not say 'we want to prohibit two stamplars grouping' yet these were the outcome. Imagine if helping hands only worked for one DK in a group... They know there is a problem, they tried to help NB tanks, and ended up breaking executioner instead. This is not even acknowledged yet. That passive so needs to proc on dodge (and be balanced accordingly), its the best way I can think of to help NB tanks without helping NB DD, excepting combat mobility situations (which is what NB are meant to have).

I just wish most NBs on the forum were as reasonable in discussions like you are here. Well laid out. Maybe the solution is to rework some skills that aren’t utilized, like the new offering, and work a bone for NB Tank sustain into it?

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Cloak is a problematic skill in my opinion. It's either too strong or completely useless if hardcountered.

ccfeeling wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Well, I tank more than anything else in the game as far as end-game Hard Core content goes and because we don't have many tanks in our guild, I actually run tanks of each class for variety. So I could bring up a few concerns I have with NB's in the tank role vs. DKs - one of the stronger(st) tank classes.

Going to look at some base DK tanking positives vs Nightblades:

DK - Passive bonus to blocking damage - no bonuses to damage reduction, closest thing could be Mirage (dodge chance)

DK - Resource return when using Ultimate - closest perk for this would be the bonus 15% regen to your stats from Shadow Passives - which will be useless for Stam while blocking and useless for Health as health regen (esp in PvE is useless). And Maybe Leeching strikes in moderately helpful in whichever resource you choose to use it for.

DK - Spikey Armor - Major Resolve/Major Ward and does some minor damage or provide a minor shield depending on morph. - closest thing is activating a Shadow Ability (best use often is Refreshing Path) which gives you 6(ish) seconds of the same buff. Unfortunately, Refreshing Path is pretty weak on a tank build for damage or healing.

DK - Igneous Shield (stompy rocks) - Gives you a Health Based shield, costs magicka, gives you stam back from passives and gives your team mates a small shield as well - NB has nothing in the way of shielding and again, maybe Mirage could be at least in the category of damage mit, but not equal to essentially adding 10K+ onto your health every use while getting stam back.

DK - Dragon's Blood - Large burst heal - NB has HoTs - Healthy Offering (not super strong on a tank build, but ok) combined with Refreshing Path and maybe throwing a swallow soul out since you have it on the bar for the Minor Vitality combines for a decent 2K+ HoT. OK in trash pulls, horrible in boss fights - not going to recover you between getting smacked by Ohms from one to the next shot. But, DK also has a decent HoT in Cauterize that is also "smart" and will shoot out to teammates when needed. Doesn't seem strong, but is usually my #1 heal on my DK.

DK - Magma Shell - great 'oh crap' button of damage resistance - NB - closest is Bolstering Darkness, not even near the level of "oh crap" usefulness to save you from anything crazy, but makes up for it by being a good AoE damage mit for a longer duration (although Magma also gives a large shield to your team mates as well). Soul Syphon morph isn't a bad option for a 'save me' ultimate either.

DK - Talons - NB - nothing

DK - Chains - NB - nothing

DK - Eng. Flames to buff fire damage for group - NB - nothing

Two things of note before I get piled on: -

1. I realize most people play NBs for damage in pvp and pve, but it used to be a strong tank class and many players that enjoy tanking enjoy doing it on different characters, just like some people enjoy pve on different classes. My NB tank was my first tank at launch and the only tank I used the first couple years of the game, be nice to not feel worthless vs my other classes.

and 2. I also recognize you don't want every class to do the same things in the exact same ways. You can allow a class to offer something in an area to make up for what they lose in something. For example - My Warden tank - no burst heal as fast as Dragon's Blood - but having Polar Wind or dropping Flowers and synergizing it yourself a couple times in a row is a different sort of strong heal, even if not as fast that almost makes up for the lost of quickness even when that is what you need most. Or Trees vs. Magma - not even close to saving you from a crazy situations like Magma, but it's AoE and cheap, offering a different use and benefits. You don't have the damage mit while blocking, but can get minor protection from your Ice Armor morph. Same with other classes - Sorc - has Encase, better than Talons in many situations. Has a stronger burst heal than DK or any other class as long as your Clanny is alive. Has mobility. Same with Templar - some strong options even if the tools are different.

Nightblades however have felt the weakest tank class by far.

This statement is not a request to hear about everyone that has managed to tank content with a NB - I have as well. Congrats. But as someone doing HM trials and HM of new dungeons as soon as they are always out - there is a night a day difference between running that content with a DK and NB.

You also have to remember, that as a tank in high-end groups, you do not get a choice on swapping up your gear and ultimates just to make up for being weaker than other classes. You wear Alkosh, no choice given. You run Warhorn, period and maybe get a backbar "oh crap" ulti. Maybe you can get away with not using Ebon or Torug's as your other armor set and using something that helps you in some other way, but that's about it. So any builds running fun stuff like Leeching/Bahraha and trying to use sword/board ulti etc. don't fly for anything but fun side runs.

So in the end:

Useful NB tanking skills - Refreshing Path (mostly for proc'ing armor buff passive), Mirage - (Dodge/non guaranteed damage mit)

Moderately Useful NB tanking skills - Health Offering, Leeching Strikes, Swallow Soul (mostly just for passive bonus).

Non useful NB skills (No, I'm not counting niche uses) - Assassin's Blade, Ambush, Peircing Mark, Rel. Focus, Suprise Attack, Dark Cloak, Aspect of Terror, Dark Shades (get better use of Heroic Slash for same de-buff), Sap Essence, Crippling Grasp.

No hard crowd control, No hard damage mit, no burst heal, slightly weak resource recovery.

Some ideas toward fixes:

When I see Nightblade, I can certainly understand them not being the "stand in the red and take it on the chin" class like a DK, but it should bring different strengths to the role to make up for what it lacks.

Resource management should be a top advantage in a class with a Siphoning Skill line - maybe a passive added in somewhere that works similar to Constitution where it works with only heavy armor to restore more resources.

A morph of both/either of Strife and Mal. Offering that scaled off health and would give a stronger heal to a high health character that wouldn't create an OP situations for a high magicka damage build. Could even turn Swallow Soul into a burst heal, giving you like the full amount of damage done returned in one or two ticks instead of a weak hot (obviously with lower damage done to not make it OP dps wise.

Leeching Strikes (or syphoning strikes) should give a larger return on health when you do a heavy attack just like the bloom from Warden does.

Dark Shades - the teleport morph of this ability is neat and has some cool uses for classes, but this version is meh. No reason to use over Low Slash really. How about change it to a small AoE where shadow hands come up and be a slow/snare/cc + maim in the area instead of doing damage.

Mirage is as strong as dodge can be with the 15% max now, and the minor armor buffs are nice, but it's still not really on par with "Evasion" when you think Nightblade damage avoidance. This is a place you could use a buff like Minor Aegis that we see on trial sets where it buffs damage mit, but only from dungeon/trials and wouldn't make overland or pvp use stronger. Mirage doesn't really need more though, but the idea of Nightblades "Evading damage" does need something else, because having that one ability does not make up for the lack of shields and damage mit from other classes.

I think the assassin line not being too useful for tanking (outside of Mirage) is fine, it's a damage line, but Shadow and Siphoning should be two lines that really carry a NB tank. Evasion and Resources are what I think of when I think NB tank, but Evasion is pretty capped out now with the whole 15% dodge max and resources definitely don't feel stronger vs my other tanks.

Well said
But buff NB tank will trigger the forum lol