Frost Magic is a genuine disappointment in ESO atm...

Maura_Neysa · March 2018

mb10 wrote: »

The whole frost tanking thing is incredibly unpopular and forced imo. It isnt working and people are not buying into it at end game level or in PVP. Ive personally tried and tried to make this work but when there are simply better options, it doesnt make sense.

Whilst the other two destruction magic forms; fire and lightning, both specialise in single target and aoe damage respectively.
Leaving frost magic out in the cold (no pun intended) when it comes to damage output as it simply isnt the optimal option in any case.

Frost magic in previous TES games has been great and imposes itself by dealing damage, slowing the opponent down and draining their stamina. The immobilization in ESO only happens when the chilled effect is procced, however, immobilizations are available through various other skills anyway and has a cooldown when used.

My proposition:
Make the ice staff an offensive weapon. The chilled status effect should drain stamina and slow the player down even more.
Perhaps a balance between the lightning and flame staff where it has half the bonus of each staff meaning some single target benefits and some aoe benefits.
OR
Allow magic to regen whilst blocking with the frost staff making it somewhat different to blocking with a shield...

What are your opinions on Ice/Frost magic in this game at this stage? What do you think would be the best option for the direction of frost magic?

Holy, do you not have any idea how powerful Frost is
Wall is 70% slow. You’re not going to get a bigger slow then that in PvP
Wall on a tank means huge up times on Crusher
Chilled which when done right has huge up time, just like Off-Balance pre Dragon Bones. On my tank that’s 100% up time on Chilled(Minor Maim), and Immobilization on cooldown.
Frost has its own ID, it’s CC, if it had the damage output of the other two, and CC it would be OP.

In ESO Frost is completely a L2P issue, and very very few have learned yet. You don’t see people crying that Resto Staff damage is weak, or S&B damage is weak, because they aren’t weak, it’s just not what they are for. Frost isn’t weak, it’s hell on stamina, if you’ve Learned HOW to play it.

Maura_Neysa · March 2018

Stovahkiin wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I feel similarly. In TES ice is part of destruction magic, which is "concerned with dealing damage to all forms of matter, both living and non-living, and with making matter more vulnerable to such damage" according to UESP.
I think a new weapon line should be introduced for magicka tanking, like alteration staff or illusion staff.

Illusion would make perfect sense for mag tanking imo. Slapping someone with an ice staff might *** them off, but by no means would it force them to attack you..

@ Stovahkiin Yeah, because CC isn’t the other half of tanking at all

SydneyGrey wrote: »

So many people wanted to make ice mages when they discovered the warden was going to be released.
Then ZOS ruined it by forcing it into a tanking-only role, even though most people don't play tanks.
If you do try to play as an ice mage, you are rewarded with the worst DPS in the game.

@SydneyGrey I get the same numbers whether it’s Lighting Back Bar Warden or Frost. The Warden passive makes up for the Destruction passive

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS closes their ears to the community and tries to do their own way. Surprise surprise, its terrible.

FROST TANKING SUCKS

start listening ZOS

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Earned all my skins on a Warden tank. So it’s the players not that class. And good lord are there a lot of crap tanks out there DKs too

VaranisArano wrote: »

An actually good tanking Frost Staff would have good CCs for locking down enemies, a taunt that wasn't reliant on heavy attack similar to Inner Fire, and a Ice Wall like NPCs have, and an Ice Shield/Armor like Wardens have.

As it is, ice staff is inferior at both tanking AND damage dealing, unless you build specifically for Ice Staff tanking and compensate for its weakness.

@VaranisArano probably already argued with you about this.
Actually sort of true.
Frost has two weaknesses. Lack of Battlefield Mobility Passive, and Defect Bolts Passive.
And two strengths. Chrusher uptime from Wall, and ranged interrupt.
There is also block on magic which I won’t call a strength or weakness.

Edit: last weakness, you lose out on a Shields worth of resistance unless you run Defending.

I don’t use the HA to taunt. I use Pierce Armor and Inner Fire, one on each bar. My block still cost stamina and HA doesn’t taunt.

The CC and the marginal damage are both true

ParaNostram wrote: »

Honestly the only way frost staff could work for tanking is if it you didn't lose your mag regen while blocking and the lowered the amount of magicka you lose from blocking but they won't do that instead frost staffs are worthless.

@ ParaNostram Already done. Don’t take the Tri Focus passive.. Also block cost reductions work the same. It doesn’t cost more to block with magic.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Frost staff tanking was very poorly introduced and it simply isn't on par with sword and shield. And yet, when we tried to make it on par, it just...didn't. ZOS didn't take our criticism to heart. They left it half broken and *** up in our lap and they let new players deal with the consequences.

This is the ZOS way. It will continue until problem people are removed from development.

Not reading patch notes are you. With every update they keep balancing Frost Staff.
- CP star changed to Bulkwork, now gives resistance of Shield or Frost Staff equipped.
- Dragon Bones buffed the Block Cost/Amount locked passive to 36%/20% up from 30%/20%. Now matches S&B

mb10 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

@Lynx7386

Oh look, its the person that no one ever gives attention to so they have to come with the different opinon lmao get outta here

How can the ice staff "work hand in hand" with wardens when its a staff thats meant to be available to everyone? Its a destruction staff, not a shield.

Not to mention, your lame khajiit warden tank is a stamina tank lmfao doesnt even use the ice staff.

@mb10 Congratulations on contributing absolutely nothing useful to the conversation. This Altmer Warden Tank who is on leader boards happens to agree with @Lynx7386 I also happen to only ever run S&B front Frost back, doesn’t matter what content. Vet Trails, Skin runs, or just the dailies. Also anyone who thinks that any tank is Stamina or Magic based, has no idea how to tank. All tanks are Hybrids.

Solariken wrote: »

Sadly I think frost tanking is here to stay. But I do hope they find a way to make the design less derpy.

For example, the taunt should be taken off heavy attack and added as an ancillary effect on Elemental Drain (all morphs). This makes the taunt free and instant and carries other benefits.

As for damage, maybe they could give frost attacks 6% bonus damage against Chilled targets. This makes frost DPS a bit more viable but also more situational than fire/shock.

I would like to see something like you suggest. I also want to keep my block stamina though, so I don’t mind just not talking the Tri Ficus passive. A combination passive, requiring 2 things to happen so that it’s much less effective in PvP is about the only way I could see them boosting the damage though

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Sadly I think frost tanking is here to stay. But I do hope they find a way to make the design less derpy.

For example, the taunt should be taken off heavy attack and added as an ancillary effect on Elemental Drain (all morphs). This makes the taunt free and instant and carries other benefits.

When they made frost staves for tanking, they came out and specifically stated that the heavy attack taunt was to enable frost tanking for lower level players (those at level 10 queuing up for their first dungeon should have a taunt if they're using a frost staff to tank). They also specifically said that at higher levels, they do not expect seasoned players to rely on the heavy attack for taunting, but to use inner fire or to have a 1h/shield setup with puncture on the other bar. For higher level/seasoned players, the heavy attack taunt is a bonus, not a restriction: it can be used to give you a damage shield, restore magicka, and taunt a ranged enemy all for no cost other than a short cast time.

If you utilize the frost staff appropriately instead of thinking that it's going to be a direct stand in for 1h/shield, you'll find it is far more effective. As a backbar weapon for a tank, it still allows access to wall of elements/blockade for crusher uptime (just like lightning or fire staves would, which btw have been the meta for endgame tanks for a long time now), while providing additional armor (like a shield would), the ability to utilize your magicka bar for blocking if low on stamina, and giving you access to essentially a free AoE minor maim, snare, and immobilize.
The only thing a meta endgame tank gives up by using a frost staff over a lightning staff is offbalance, which now has a 20 second cooldown on enemies and is already being provided by healers and most magicka DPS players. There is absolutely no reason for a tank to run a lightning staff anymore, the downtime on offbalance means that it can be kept up just by having your healers run lightning back bar, or by having one magsorc or magblade dps run it.
The gains a frost staff provides FAR outweigh what you're losing by swapping from a lightning staff.

KiraTsukasa · March 2018

I dunno, I like playing my warden frost mage so far.

Jameliel · March 2018

@ZOS fix it. Now please. Thank you=)

Narvuntien · March 2018

The taunt should be on an ability.
You have a problem where you need to heavy attack to sustain do you can't use an ice staff for damage because you can't sustain without heavy attacks.

Ice staff should reduce the targets armor and spell resist. <--- with numbers such that it is less than the fire damage and lightning damage but so that it helps group damage. Right now lightning is the support staff since concussed results in more damage.

An alternative is, well, it gives Maim which I guess is okay but I think it would be a lot better if it always gave Main not proc for it.

You can't have ice sap stam (and lightning Mag) like it does in Skyrim because the mobs don't have stam of mag, it would be too strong in PVP and useless in PVE.

Avran_Sylt · March 2018

mb10 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt I agree the CC could be an issue but I mean even if it just slows players down it would be good. Atm, a fully charged ice attack aggros the target so in PVP its absolutely useless and PVE, which tank has time to fully charge an attack???

The destruction staff passives will always make the ice staff played at a disadvantage.

I and everyone else will need a really good reason to ditch the 8% extra single target dmg from flame staffs and 8% extra aoe damage from lightning staffs which also give minor vulnerability.

However, I share the same faith that spell crafting could do something but atm the passives are the issue imo.

The reason to ditch the extra damage is the CC it offers. And in no way shape or form is that a viable option for a meta damage build. which is why it gets shafted. But I find that fine, it's a trade-off. The system itself could be improved upon in the future, but as it is now, the options provided are sufficient enough.

That doesn't mean to say that there aren't things that can improve the situation in the short term. As other people have mentioned, a way to improve the Frost Staff tanking is by placing the taunt instead on Weakness to Elements. Which I actually think would be a good idea.

However, a few things would need to change with the skill itself for that to actually come around. Namely, it would need to have a mana cost, as it's a free cast right now. And an effect for both Fire and Shock should be thought up, to keep the skill polished (in line with the others).

My suggestion would be:

Add a Magicka cost to the skill: ~2400 Magicka (Spit-balling here)
(Price would need to be balanced around the Destruction Expert Passive (do you have to kill it, or just place the skill on it?)))

-Frost: Taunts the enemy
-Shock: Applies Minor Breach
-Fire: Low Damage DoT (Enough to about equal the 2% damage increase from Minor Breach (30k DPS), or around 600 Damage per second on a High-Spec build)

Add an increased Mana cost on the Elemental Susceptibility Morph (Duration refreshed on damage)

FoolishHuman · March 2018

Frost staff tanking is only "unpopular" because it's worse than 1h+shield tanking. All it needs is another buff to the frost staff or a nerf to 1h+shield.

malicia · March 2018

Imagine if it taunted on a LA rather than on a HA. Would make for a very interesting dungeon tank.

Maura_Neysa · March 2018

malicia wrote: »

Imagine if it taunted on a LA rather than on a HA. Would make for a very interesting dungeon tank.

That would make it sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much worse

knaveofengland · March 2018

sounds frosty to me

Datthaw · March 2018

If they want mag tanking they need to bring back the wards. I used to run it in skyrim fireball in my left hand, ward in my right.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ward

Doctordarkspawn · March 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

That isn't what anyone is arguing for and the thing is plainly inferior at it's chosen goal, tanking.

It has no means of debuffing both armor and spell resistance.

It has no means of granting major heroism.

It has no block cost reduction.

It has CC but almost every weapon does.

Stop talking out of your butt please. Even in it's chosen roll it is demonstribly bad. It was not ment to be a backbar weapon, or if it was, why would I not just have sword and board on both bars?

luen79rwb17_ESO · March 2018

Agreed. This ice tanking thing is not popular to anyone but developers.

Vanthras79 · March 2018

I think with frost magic, we may just have to "let it go.."

Seraphayel · March 2018

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Well I'd change that and make Fire the DoT version centered around Burning. Frost becomes the one for ST damage then.

SilverIce58 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Well I'd change that and make Fire the DoT version centered around Burning. Frost becomes the one for ST damage then.

Well, as I've said before, even though, logically it makes sense, it would cause a major uproar in the community, where everyone would whine about having to refarm/remake their weapons. It'd just be better(easier) to make frost the DoT.

Pyr0xyrecuprotite · March 2018

For me, in PvE, the problem with frost is that the immobilize effect does nothing to bosses (and many other elite mobs), which are normally immune to CC effects. So fire and lightning do much more damage (for PvE boss fights), with no corresponding benefit for using ice that a good tank won't already be contributing (minor maim etc. from chilled).

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

That isn't what anyone is arguing for and the thing is plainly inferior at it's chosen goal, tanking.

It has no means of debuffing both armor and spell resistance.

It has no means of granting major heroism.

It has no block cost reduction.

It has CC but almost every weapon does.

Stop talking out of your butt please. Even in it's chosen roll it is demonstribly bad. It was not ment to be a backbar weapon, or if it was, why would I not just have sword and board on both bars?

It doesn't need to debuff both armor and spell resist. There are other sources of major fracture and breach. Why does everyone simply want it to be a 100% identical clone to 1h/shield?

1h/shield doesn't provide major heroism either, it gives minor heroism. That buff can be gained from other sources. Wardens have major heroism from shimmering shield.

It has the same block cost reduction that shield does, barring the 8% from slotting defensive position. You accuse me of "talking out my butt" but you don't even know what the passives are.

As for why you should use it over another 1h/shield on the back bar? Because it gives max uptime on crusher enchants due to wall of elements. It gives you the option to block with magicka. It gives you an aoe minor maim, snare, and immobilize. It does more damage in situations where pure tanking isn't needed than a shield ever would. It gives you access to a free ranged taunt and damage shield. It gives you access to magicka steal. It gives you access to an area immobilize ultimate. It gives you a ranged single target root.

If all you focus on is the top 1% of the game, sure, frost staff comes up a little short. But ill let you on to something- and this may shatter your perception of the game, so brace yourself- the other 99% is where the majority of players spend their time, and there the frost staff is perfectly acceptable.

mb10 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Well I'd change that and make Fire the DoT version centered around Burning. Frost becomes the one for ST damage then.

Thats probably a good idea and how it should be. So simple and balanced.

Fire - dots
Ice - single target
lightning - aoe

mb10 · March 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

That isn't what anyone is arguing for and the thing is plainly inferior at it's chosen goal, tanking.

It has no means of debuffing both armor and spell resistance.

It has no means of granting major heroism.

It has no block cost reduction.

It has CC but almost every weapon does.

Stop talking out of your butt please. Even in it's chosen roll it is demonstribly bad. It was not ment to be a backbar weapon, or if it was, why would I not just have sword and board on both bars?

It doesn't need to debuff both armor and spell resist. There are other sources of major fracture and breach. Why does everyone simply want it to be a 100% identical clone to 1h/shield?

1h/shield doesn't provide major heroism either, it gives minor heroism. That buff can be gained from other sources. Wardens have major heroism from shimmering shield.

It has the same block cost reduction that shield does, barring the 8% from slotting defensive position. You accuse me of "talking out my butt" but you don't even know what the passives are.

As for why you should use it over another 1h/shield on the back bar? Because it gives max uptime on crusher enchants due to wall of elements. It gives you the option to block with magicka. It gives you an aoe minor maim, snare, and immobilize. It does more damage in situations where pure tanking isn't needed than a shield ever would. It gives you access to a free ranged taunt and damage shield. It gives you access to magicka steal. It gives you access to an area immobilize ultimate. It gives you a ranged single target root.

If all you focus on is the top 1% of the game, sure, frost staff comes up a little short. But ill let you on to something- and this may shatter your perception of the game, so brace yourself- the other 99% is where the majority of players spend their time, and there the frost staff is perfectly acceptable.

You are talking out your butt:
1h shield also gets 20% of the amount you can block
bashing costs 40% less stamina and bashing with frost staff still costs stamina too
Can block an extra 15% from projectiles
And 60% movement speed when blocking

There are no debuffs with the frost staff apart from minor maim when only occurs if the target is effected by the chilled status effect. It has a cooldown and only works 1 target at a time. Hardly an effective debuff.

The damage shield you gain is a 3 digit number you cant be serious lmfao and the "free" taunt takes about 3-4 seconds to cast. Magicka steal always comes from the healer anyway LOL

It doesnt come up "a little short" it comes up majorly short and is a very poor tanking option at the moment for any experienced to top tier level player. 1% is just more nonsense coming from your direction.

Seraphayel · March 2018

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Well I'd change that and make Fire the DoT version centered around Burning. Frost becomes the one for ST damage then.

Well, as I've said before, even though, logically it makes sense, it would cause a major uproar in the community, where everyone would whine about having to refarm/remake their weapons. It'd just be better(easier) to make frost the DoT.

You're right but the Burning status effect to be the centre of a Fire Destro Staff is just to good!

Something like this:

Destructive Touch (Fire): always applies the Burning status effect.

New passives:

1/2: increases the duration of Burning by 1 second
2/2: increases the duration of Burning by 2 seconds and makes it possible to stack two Burning effects at once

Rework Trifocus:
1/2: a fully charged heavy attack with a Fire Staff consumes one of your Burning effects on the target and deals all of the remaining damage at once
2/2: a fully charged heavy attack with a Fire Staff can consume two of your Burning effects on the target to deal all the remaining damage at once

Jade1986 · March 2018

I like frost tanking, but the few offensive abilities warden has that are frost NEED to be reworked into target based.

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Jade1986 wrote: »

I like frost tanking, but the few offensive abilities warden has that are frost NEED to be reworked into target based.

Why? Aoe is always more useful overall

FrostFallFox · March 2018

Tbh I LOVE this ice staff. Really fun in pvp at least, and very few things are difficult enough that it's like "you absolutely CANT DPS with an ice staff!"

And if I was PvE tanking I would also have a SnB or Resto w/ ever.

Chaos2088 · March 2018

Personally I think a tanking staff should of been made like we have a separated one for healing, not making a destruction staff one...could of had its own passives to really help a magicka tank and a cool ulitmate magic shield or something like that...

Make the Ice staff a proper destruction (in the name) weapon that you can bring to end game pve and not get laughed at.

Make Ice mages a proper and decent thing please

Maura_Neysa · March 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

That isn't what anyone is arguing for and the thing is plainly inferior at it's chosen goal, tanking.

It has no means of debuffing both armor and spell resistance. True

It has no means of granting major heroism. Neither does S&B[

It has no block cost reduction. yes it does. 36%/20% exact same as S&B

It has CC but almost every weapon does. 70% slow, now other weapon line touches that

Stop talking out of your butt please. yes please stop doing thatEven in it's chosen roll it is demonstribly bad. It was not ment to be a backbar weapon, or if it was, why would I not just have sword and board on both bars? because Wall of Elements is so far Superior for applying the Chrusher enchantment than anything in S&B. And the extra CC capability when combined with other Frost skill.

Arobain · March 2018

nah its not a disappointment, you just dont know how to build one

Lynx7386 · March 2018

Arobain wrote: »

nah its not a disappointment, you just dont know how to build one

Hey we agree for once

mb10 · March 2018

Arobain wrote: »

nah its not a disappointment, you just dont know how to build one

Apparently not a single person on EU server knows how to either because Im yet to see it in PVP done effectively or even done at all