Frost Magic is a genuine disappointment in ESO atm...

mb10

The whole frost tanking thing is incredibly unpopular and forced imo. It isnt working and people are not buying into it at end game level or in PVP. Ive personally tried and tried to make this work but when there are simply better options, it doesnt make sense.


Whilst the other two destruction magic forms; fire and lightning, both specialise in single target and aoe damage respectively.
Leaving frost magic out in the cold (no pun intended) when it comes to damage output as it simply isnt the optimal option in any case.

Frost magic in previous TES games has been great and imposes itself by dealing damage, slowing the opponent down and draining their stamina. The immobilization in ESO only happens when the chilled effect is procced, however, immobilizations are available through various other skills anyway and has a cooldown when used.

My proposition:
Make the ice staff an offensive weapon. The chilled status effect should drain stamina and slow the player down even more.
Perhaps a balance between the lightning and flame staff where it has half the bonus of each staff meaning some single target benefits and some aoe benefits.
OR
Allow magic to regen whilst blocking with the frost staff making it somewhat different to blocking with a shield...

What are your opinions on Ice/Frost magic in this game at this stage? What do you think would be the best option for the direction of frost magic?

VaranisArano

People have been asking for Frost Staff to become a better offensive weapon since even before ZOS made it a tanking weapon.

Unfortunately, ZOS seems wedded to the idea that Frost Staff should be a magicka tanking weapon, despite only being used seriously by a few niche tank builds who want a magicka source to block with and a few DPS/Healers who are either clueless that the heavy attack is a taunt with the Trifocus passive or are really committed to roleplaying an Ice mage.

I don't see this changing anytime soon.

emilyhyoyeon

I feel similarly. In TES ice is part of destruction magic, which is "concerned with dealing damage to all forms of matter, both living and non-living, and with making matter more vulnerable to such damage" according to UESP.
I think a new weapon line should be introduced for magicka tanking, like alteration staff or illusion staff.

Stovahkiin

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I feel similarly. In TES ice is part of destruction magic, which is "concerned with dealing damage to all forms of matter, both living and non-living, and with making matter more vulnerable to such damage" according to UESP.
I think a new weapon line should be introduced for magicka tanking, like alteration staff or illusion staff.

Illusion would make perfect sense for mag tanking imo. Slapping someone with an ice staff might *** them off, but by no means would it force them to attack you..

SydneyGrey

So many people wanted to make ice mages when they discovered the warden was going to be released.
Then ZOS ruined it by forcing it into a tanking-only role, even though most people don't play tanks.
If you do try to play as an ice mage, you are rewarded with the worst DPS in the game.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

ZOS closes their ears to the community and tries to do their own way. Surprise surprise, its terrible.

FROST TANKING SUCKS

start listening ZOS

EvilCroc

Wrobel hates ice.

PlagueSD

I don't mind frost tanking. I get to perma-block and still regen resources.

Blocking with S&B = Use stam, regen magica
Blocking with frost staff = Use magica, regen stam.

I don't see the issue. I think of this as Range Tank (frost staff) and Melee Tank (S&B).

The problem people have is with the tri-focus passive in the destruction tree. This makes frost staff completely useless for DPS builds.

VaranisArano

An actually good tanking Frost Staff would have good CCs for locking down enemies, a taunt that wasn't reliant on heavy attack similar to Inner Fire, and a Ice Wall like NPCs have, and an Ice Shield/Armor like Wardens have.

As it is, ice staff is inferior at both tanking AND damage dealing, unless you build specifically for Ice Staff tanking and compensate for its weakness.

emilyhyoyeon

Stovahkiin wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I feel similarly. In TES ice is part of destruction magic, which is "concerned with dealing damage to all forms of matter, both living and non-living, and with making matter more vulnerable to such damage" according to UESP.
I think a new weapon line should be introduced for magicka tanking, like alteration staff or illusion staff.

Illusion would make perfect sense for mag tanking imo. Slapping someone with an ice staff might *** them off, but by no means would it force them to attack you..

yeah, I was also thinking the Illusion staff taunt would be a "frenzy" or even "charm" ability. Other tank buff abilities in the skill line could be "rally" (which, in the single player games, IIRC buff allies in some way). Self buffs could be "chameleon" which, instead of making the player invisible, it makes him get more resistances by being harder to see, or something like that.

Alternation is the big buff magic tree thematically (besides resto), but illusion fits the taunt aspect thematically so well that the other illusion spells could be made to work.

SilverIce58

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

ParaNostram

Honestly the only way frost staff could work for tanking is if it you didn't lose your mag regen while blocking and the lowered the amount of magicka you lose from blocking but they won't do that instead frost staffs are worthless.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Frost is great for PVP. But for PVE, it has no place.

Silver_Strider

I enjoy Frost Tanking greatly, use it more than 1hS on my Warden and find it much more fun as well. I like the extra damage as an option for my tank as well as all the utility it offers to me as a tank (AoE immobilize, ranged interrupt, Minor Mangle, Magic Steal). It's all fairly useful for pugging content.

End Game, it's just another thing that falls short but there's plenty of that already that I'm not sure why Ice Staff specifically constantly gets called out.

Grimm13

Stovahkiin wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I feel similarly. In TES ice is part of destruction magic, which is "concerned with dealing damage to all forms of matter, both living and non-living, and with making matter more vulnerable to such damage" according to UESP.
I think a new weapon line should be introduced for magicka tanking, like alteration staff or illusion staff.

Illusion would make perfect sense for mag tanking imo. Slapping someone with an ice staff might *** them off, but by no means would it force them to attack you..

Just Give us a additional choice other than a stave. A whip or fail would be nice change from staves for magicka.

mb10

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Frost is great for PVP. But for PVE, it has no place.

I think thats the biggest issue.

Not seeing it in PVP and only seeing fire everywhere is quite sad tbh

VaranisArano

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I enjoy Frost Tanking greatly, use it more than 1hS on my Warden and find it much more fun as well. I like the extra damage as an option for my tank as well as all the utility it offers to me as a tank (AoE immobilize, ranged interrupt, Minor Mangle, Magic Steal). It's all fairly useful for pugging content.

End Game, it's just another thing that falls short but there's plenty of that already that I'm not sure why Ice Staff specifically constantly gets called out.

Probably because people really wish that Ice Staff was an effective weapon. It used to be mediocre at DPS, now its mediocre at tanking.

I wish ZOS would commit to one style and make Ice Staff awesome at it as opposed to making it the jack of all trades, master of none that it is right now.

xaraan

I like the illusion staff idea, or even just a quarterstaff skill line or a few passives under undaunted line to turn staves into tanking tools.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Right now we have
Fire wich boost single target dammage
Lightning boost aoe

So if we add a magic dammage staff we could have
Ice staff boost dot dammage
Magic staff boost direct dammage
Or vice versa

And alteration or illusion staff for tank or both of them with each of them their respective skill line (a tank as 2 bars so he could use both of them)

Thunderknuckles

I'll admit right off I've never used an ice staff, but it would be awesome if they'd actually make it a worthwhile thing to invest in. It leaves me with scrunched up forehead wondering why on earth they just seem to ignore it. I mean, going by what I read, if it's all but useless as a tank and a DPS....why even have it there taking up space?

Doctordarkspawn

Frost staff tanking was very poorly introduced and it simply isn't on par with sword and shield. And yet, when we tried to make it on par, it just...didn't. ZOS didn't take our criticism to heart. They left it half broken and *** up in our lap and they let new players deal with the consequences.

This is the ZOS way. It will continue until problem people are removed from development.

Avran_Sylt

Frost being a damage dealer and CC oriented at the same time all in one skill or two will make it unbelievably broken in PvP. It'll also make it much more efficient for soloing content above the others.

You have to choose: Damage, or CC

What I would love for them to do is add in a Spell-crafting system which allows the player to alter their spells based on a given focus. Allowing the player to choose:

AoE (low-damage) or Single Target (high-damage)
Direct (lower overall efficiency, higher single damage tick) or DoT (Higher overall Efficiency, lower single damage tick)
CC (Lower Damage) or Damage (Higher Damage)


Adding an element at that point which will simply serve as a nice visual coating that can be effective based on an opponents weakness.

logarifmik

It's a shame that my sorcerer forced to use only fire and lightning to fight foes. He definitely needs an ability to freeze enemies to the death from time to time.

mb10

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Frost being a damage dealer and CC oriented at the same time all in one skill or two will make it unbelievably broken in PvP. It'll also make it much more efficient for soloing content above the others.

You have to choose: Damage, or CC

What I would love for them to do is add in a Spell-crafting system which allows the player to alter their spells based on a given focus. Allowing the player to choose:

AoE (low-damage) or Single Target (high-damage)
Direct (lower overall efficiency, higher single damage tick) or DoT (Higher overall Efficiency, lower single damage tick)
CC (Lower Damage) or Damage (Higher Damage)


Adding an element at that point which will simply serve as a nice visual coating that can be effective based on an opponents weakness.

@Avran_Sylt I agree the CC could be an issue but I mean even if it just slows players down it would be good. Atm, a fully charged ice attack aggros the target so in PVP its absolutely useless and PVE, which tank has time to fully charge an attack???


The destruction staff passives will always make the ice staff played at a disadvantage.

I and everyone else will need a really good reason to ditch the 8% extra single target dmg from flame staffs and 8% extra aoe damage from lightning staffs which also give minor vulnerability.

However, I share the same faith that spell crafting could do something but atm the passives are the issue imo.

Tryxus

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Wouldn't it be better if Fire gets the DoT damage increase, and Frost the single target direct damage? Fire burns and frost... well... pierces and slaps?

Lynx7386

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

SilverIce58

Tryxus wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Wouldn't it be better if Fire gets the DoT damage increase, and Frost the single target direct damage? Fire burns and frost... well... pierces and slaps?

While that is true about the logic behind fire and ice, fire already has single-target, so if they changed two staves instead of one, people would make threads that say things like "Frost staff does single-target, and Fire does DoT? Now I have to remake/refarm my weapons. Thanks a lot ZOS." Trust me, there'd be tons of those threads on here.

mb10

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

@Lynx7386

Oh look, its the person that no one ever gives attention to so they have to come with the different opinon lmao get outta here

How can the ice staff "work hand in hand" with wardens when its a staff thats meant to be available to everyone? Its a destruction staff, not a shield.

Not to mention, your lame khajiit warden tank is a stamina tank lmfao doesnt even use the ice staff.

Lynx7386

mb10 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Oh boy, another one of these dead horses getting beaten.

Frost staff is fine. The taunt on heavy was never meant to be your only taunt - only an optional free taunt and a low level taunt leading up to getting inner fire. That was said directly by the game designers.

Frost is an amazing Back bar tanking weapon, certainly more useful now than lightning staves on a tank. For trials level content, use a shield front bar and ice staff back bar.

Frost tanking and warden tanking were designed hand in hand and work well at the moment.

It isn't going to change. Stop crying that you can't have another color for your damage spells.

@Lynx7386

Oh look, its the person that no one ever gives attention to so they have to come with the different opinon lmao get outta here

How can the ice staff "work hand in hand" with wardens when its a staff thats meant to be available to everyone? Its a destruction staff, not a shield.

Not to mention, your lame khajiit warden tank is a stamina tank lmfao doesnt even use the ice staff.

Glacial Presence
-Increase chance of applying chilled to enemies with Winter's embrace abilities by 200%

Blockade of Frost
-Immobilizes chilled enemies

Not to mention everything about the warden is hybridized, greatly suggesting that the developers intended them to use a shield and frost staff for tanking.

Also, my warden tank is not stamina based, he's a hybrid who uses 1h/shield and frost staff, so please remove your head from your backside and dont presume to know anything about someone else's characters.

Lynx7386

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Since fire staves are for single-target, and lightning staves are for AoE dmg, I think frost staves should be for DoT dmg. It'd make a great trifecta, it'd fit into destruction magic, and give frost spells more use with other DoTs.

Wouldn't it be better if Fire gets the DoT damage increase, and Frost the single target direct damage? Fire burns and frost... well... pierces and slaps?

While that is true about the logic behind fire and ice, fire already has single-target, so if they changed two staves instead of one, people would make threads that say things like "Frost staff does single-target, and Fire does DoT? Now I have to remake/refarm my weapons. Thanks a lot ZOS." Trust me, there'd be tons of those threads on here.

Exactly this.

There is absolutely no way to make frost competetive with fire or lightning damage without upsetting the balance and making one of those two no longer the go-to, which would have people raving about their gear and meta getting changed.

The number of people using frost staves for damage before ZOS could be counted on one hand. They were in a bad spot, nobody took them seriously as a damage weapon. The number of people that wanted a magicka tanking option, on the other hand, numbered in the hundreds (possibly higher).

ZOS took a weapon that wasnt used by the vast majority of the community and turned it into something that people had been asking for since launch. In return, a bunch of entitled brats flocked to the forum and started amassing threads about how they had "lost a dps option" and wanted a shiny new element for their damage again.

It isnt getting reverted, and people are going to just have to come to terms with that. The change was a good one, even if people refuse to see it or put the effort in to actually try it. I've had a blast tanking with a frost staff - granted it isnt as good as 1h/shield for the meta, but it compliments a shield much better than any other weapon would.

Solariken

Sadly I think frost tanking is here to stay. But I do hope they find a way to make the design less derpy.

For example, the taunt should be taken off heavy attack and added as an ancillary effect on Elemental Drain (all morphs). This makes the taunt free and instant and carries other benefits.

As for damage, maybe they could give frost attacks 6% bonus damage against Chilled targets. This makes frost DPS a bit more viable but also more situational than fire/shock.