Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Ritter · March 2018

@Qbiken @Aznox Ok, Ok, I'm sold on heavy attacks. Will start trying to incorporate it tonight.

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

My current target rotation, in ideal conditions, would be :

- Hircine's Rage (refresh weapon damage buff if needed)
- Pounce (if needed to close the gap)
- Light attack (apply bleed and proc one weapon enchant)
animation cut into :
- Claws of Anguish (apply major defile and DoT)
- Light attack (another chance to proc berserker enchant)
animation cut into :
- Rousing Roar (apply fear and off-balance, refresh major brutality)
- Heavy attack (get back 12k stamina from off-balance, another chance to proc berserker enchant)
animation cut into :
- Howl of Agony (if you are animation canceling properly it will land before CC break for most targets and get +30%)
- Lights attack the enemy to death
- Restart combo as soon as the enemy loose CC immunity

The bold part is the key every Werewolf should master because landing one Heavy attack on off-balance every 8 second is worth as much sustain as 4500 stamina regen.

Nicely put!

Datolite · March 2018

This might sound like a dumb question but considering the many different types of damage out there etc., what are the must-have CP for a werewolf? Also which scale best?

Edit: I'll just link you guys my build if any of you wanna tear it apart (using BoB with a focus on being well-rounded in Crodiil and IC).

Human form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49600

And in WW form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49615

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

This might sound like a dumb question but considering the many different types of damage out there etc., what are the must-have CP for a werewolf? Also which scale best?

Edit: I'll just link you guys my build if any of you wanna tear it apart (using BoB with a focus on being well-rounded in Crodiil and IC).

Human form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49600

And in WW form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49615

My thinking is that you should prioritize: Physical weapons expert, Mighty, and Thaumaturge as top tier investments (42-66 CP in each). Blessed and Master at Arms (23-34 CP) would be second tier investments that I'd still want a substantial investment in. I'd want some in precise strikes and the damage shield one, (11-19 CP), and a handful in piercing and elfborn ( 2-7).

Ritter · March 2018

@Aznox How are you using invisibility potions? You just pop them when you're jumped on and come back in when the time is right? Seems OP if I understand the mechanics of it all. As long as you use no skills, you just can't be seen/hit unless with AOE/detection skills?

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox How are you using invisibility potions? You just pop them when you're jumped on and come back in when the time is right? Seems OP if I understand the mechanics of it all. As long as you use no skills, you just can't be seen/hit unless with AOE/detection skills?

If you ask me invisibility has no place in PvP.

I used to run with a guy who would rock coward's gear and invis pots, could literally pass through a zerg and one-shot people with two proc sets, make his way back out. There was no killing him, no matter what they tried.

Aznox · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

I used to run with a guy who would rock coward's gear and invis pots, could literally pass through a zerg and one-shot people with two proc sets, make his way back out. There was no killing him, no matter what they tried.

Also while opening portals to Oblivion, making the sun black and stunning CC immune players ?

Aznox · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Aznox How are you using invisibility potions? You just pop them when you're jumped on and come back in when the time is right? Seems OP if I understand the mechanics of it all. As long as you use no skills, you just can't be seen/hit unless with AOE/detection skills?

Invis pots will never make you invisible more than one or two second, because any damage (dot that was already on you or aoe) will break the invisibility.

However, it will make you un-targetable for these two seconds, break beams like Soul Assault, and generally disturbing the extremely well refined burst combo of experienced players, giving time for a Troll King tick, a dodge towards safety, etc...
With experience, you gain a feel for when the guy attacking you is going for the killing move, often from the ultimated you learn to recognize with a fraction of a second.

Ritter · March 2018

@Aznox That makes sense, but does entering invis have a dodge effect of some sort other than breaking LOS? I'm not well-versed on stealthing and invis mechanics.

Qbiken · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

This might sound like a dumb question but considering the many different types of damage out there etc., what are the must-have CP for a werewolf? Also which scale best?

Edit: I'll just link you guys my build if any of you wanna tear it apart (using BoB with a focus on being well-rounded in Crodiil and IC).

Human form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49600

And in WW form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49615

* At least 30 points into "The Apprentice". You then unlock a passive (Spell precision) that increases your spell-critical by 12%, which is beneficial for your WW-heal. I use this for all my WW builds

* Unless I use a DoT focused build, don´t spend too much into thamaturge.
* You want a lot of points into "Master-at-arms" and Mighty. These 2 stars will give you the most "raw-damage". Then try to divide between precise strike, thamaturge and piercing to what suits you.

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

This might sound like a dumb question but considering the many different types of damage out there etc., what are the must-have CP for a werewolf? Also which scale best?

Edit: I'll just link you guys my build if any of you wanna tear it apart (using BoB with a focus on being well-rounded in Crodiil and IC).

Human form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49600

And in WW form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49615

* At least 30 points into "The Apprentice". You then unlock a passive (Spell precision) that increases your spell-critical by 12%, which is beneficial for your WW-heal. I use this for all my WW builds

* Unless I use a DoT focused build, don´t spend too much into thamaturge.
* You want a lot of points into "Master-at-arms" and Mighty. These 2 stars will give you the most "raw-damage". Then try to divide between precise strike, thamaturge and piercing to what suits you.

I agree with putting at least 30 in the apprentice, and do so myself, but you have a better CP star than MaA as a werewolf: Physical Weapons expert.

Since your primary attack is the light attack, and PWE goes to 35%, you want to buff this one substantially. With 11% in Mighty, 29% in PWE, and 19% in Thauma, you buff the direct damage portion of your LAs by 40% and the bleed by 30%. The bleed dots bypass resistance, so putting points in thauma also in effect buffs your damage against tankier builds. You'll still have leftover points to put in Master at Arms, which is likely the 5th best investment for werewolf.

Piercing only increases direct damage (and proc dots) as a werewolf, so it's probably weakest, and precise strikes is really only worth it if you're using an acuity build.

Aznox · March 2018

You need to remove most Heavy Armor Focus and split between ironclad and thick skin.

Datolite · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

I used to run with a guy who would rock coward's gear and invis pots, could literally pass through a zerg and one-shot people with two proc sets, make his way back out. There was no killing him, no matter what they tried.

Also while opening portals to Oblivion, making the sun black and stunning CC immune players ?

Hey what can I say, he had a few tricks up his sleeve. You've been to Cyro, right? There are some dumb zergs out there.

Datolite · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

* Unless I use a DoT focused build, don´t spend too much into thamaturge.

I figured since I'm a templar who uses Jabs and causes a lot of bleeds in WW form it would be useful.

Qbiken · March 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

This might sound like a dumb question but considering the many different types of damage out there etc., what are the must-have CP for a werewolf? Also which scale best?

Edit: I'll just link you guys my build if any of you wanna tear it apart (using BoB with a focus on being well-rounded in Crodiil and IC).

Human form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49600

And in WW form:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49615

* At least 30 points into "The Apprentice". You then unlock a passive (Spell precision) that increases your spell-critical by 12%, which is beneficial for your WW-heal. I use this for all my WW builds

* Unless I use a DoT focused build, don´t spend too much into thamaturge.
* You want a lot of points into "Master-at-arms" and Mighty. These 2 stars will give you the most "raw-damage". Then try to divide between precise strike, thamaturge and piercing to what suits you.

I agree with putting at least 30 in the apprentice, and do so myself, but you have a better CP star than MaA as a werewolf: Physical Weapons expert.

Since your primary attack is the light attack, and PWE goes to 35%, you want to buff this one substantially. With 11% in Mighty, 29% in PWE, and 19% in Thauma, you buff the direct damage portion of your LAs by 40% and the bleed by 30%. The bleed dots bypass resistance, so putting points in thauma also in effect buffs your damage against tankier builds. You'll still have leftover points to put in Master at Arms, which is likely the 5th best investment for werewolf.

Piercing only increases direct damage (and proc dots) as a werewolf, so it's probably weakest, and precise strikes is really only worth it if you're using an acuity build.

Does physical weapon expert counts for your light and heavy attacks in werewolf form as well?

I will try your suggested layout and compare to what I use now and update you with the results.

Aznox · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

I used to run with a guy who would rock coward's gear and invis pots, could literally pass through a zerg and one-shot people with two proc sets, make his way back out. There was no killing him, no matter what they tried.

Also while opening portals to Oblivion, making the sun black and stunning CC immune players ?

Hey what can I say, he had a few tricks up his sleeve. You've been to Cyro, right? There are some dumb zergs out there.

Just that Coward gear has absolutely no synergy with invis pots because sprinting breaks the invisibility effect.
Yes i've spent quite some time in Cyrodiil, yes i know what a bomber is, and yes ive seen quite a lot of dumb zergs getting half-wiped by them.

However this is a theorycrafting thread and to me there is no place for embellished stories and myths in it

Sharee · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

half-wiped by them.

However this is a theorycrafting thread and to me there is no place for embellished stories and myths in it

Awww, and i just wanted to post about how i got my WW out of the closet for a ride and got 97000(!!) tel-var stones from a single kill today... heh

Aznox · March 2018

If it is a factual recap on how you managed to devour an Imperial Physique PetSorc who felt safe behind his shield and his teleport, please share

Sharee · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

If it is a factual recap on how you managed to devour an Imperial Physique PetSorc who felt safe behind his shield and his teleport, please share

Yep it was a sorc, don't think he had pets but it was kinda chaotic so i couldn't swear it. Campaign dominated by AD (as usual during offhours vivec EU). All IC nodes yellow, so i capped one and waited to see what crawls from under the rocks. First a NB who is not worth mentioning, then a sorc happened, killed guards in a blink, then while capping the flag pulled the boss. In the name of maintaining his telvar-per-hour rate, i guess.

So i selflessly decided to aid the poor NPC, despite the ult counter reading zero (i just transformed back after killing the NB). Boss got confused as to who was the enemy, and started hitting us both, the ungrateful prick. The fight became a quest of "get your ult up to 201 before something eats you". Which i barely succeeded at, transformed, sorc gulped an invis pot which gave him about 0.3 seconds of invisibility and then died.

I didn't realize how many TV stones i got until i lost the boss, at which point i said "whoa" and promptly logged out. I'm not touching that char until cyro is locked tonight, heh

Datolite · March 2018

My god that sounds satisfying. I think one of the best parts about being a werewolf is having a solid counter to shield stackers.

Aznox wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

I used to run with a guy who would rock coward's gear and invis pots, could literally pass through a zerg and one-shot people with two proc sets, make his way back out. There was no killing him, no matter what they tried.

Also while opening portals to Oblivion, making the sun black and stunning CC immune players ?

Hey what can I say, he had a few tricks up his sleeve. You've been to Cyro, right? There are some dumb zergs out there.

Just that Coward gear has absolutely no synergy with invis pots because sprinting breaks the invisibility effect.
Yes i've spent quite some time in Cyrodiil, yes i know what a bomber is, and yes ive seen quite a lot of dumb zergs getting half-wiped by them.

However this is a theorycrafting thread and to me there is no place for embellished stories and myths in it

What's wrong with a bit of dramatic embellishment? Anyway it's the way he told it, no need to get defensive about your invis pots.

I mean maybe I'm crazy but stealth seems weird to me as a concept. An entire army can vanish from the field by crouching lol. But I'll shut up now. Thanks for the CP suggestions everyone.

Aznox · March 2018

Sorry if i'm a bit too blunt sometimes, trying to pass my opinion in one go to avoid unnecessary back-and-forth

Also i'm not trying to defend anything, my hope here is to learn new things from someone sharing new ideas or doing math/test i didn't bother to do.

Aznox · March 2018

For those who might be interested, @Blobsky is currently streaming his attempt at an open world Stamblade Werewolf :
https://twitch.tv/blobeso

He is currently using :
5 Bone Pirate's Tatters
5 Shacklebreaker
1 Molag Kena
1 Domihaus

Lughlongarm · March 2018

Hi, Something I noticed playing with - http://en.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:EsoBuildEditor

Dots & bleeds scales much better with max stamina compared to weapon damage, especially passive bleeds like the WW bleed and the axe bleed. Could it be or just an editor bug?

Aznox · March 2018

Did you activate Major Brutality (+20% Weapon Damage) and Hircine's rage (+10% WD) ?
All skills should scale to the usual 1WD=10Stam
Lights and Heavy attacks scale to 1WD=40Stam

Lughlongarm · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Did you activate Major Brutality (+20% Weapon Damage) and Hircine's rage (+10% WD) ?
All skills should scale to the usual 1WD=10Stam
Lights and Heavy attacks scale to 1WD=40Stam

Yes I have.
That was my thought as well.
I created 2 builds:
1 with 6,371 WD and 40k stamina(WW form) - 9888 effective weapon power
1 with 4,916 WD and 51k stamina(WW form) - 9097 effective weapon power

Same CP.

First build- WW bleed is -22,934
Second build WW bleed is - 27,861

Very strange....

Qbiken · March 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Hi, Something I noticed playing with - http://en.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:EsoBuildEditor

Dots & bleeds scales much better with max stamina compared to weapon damage, especially passive bleeds like the WW bleed and the axe bleed. Could it be or just an editor bug?

@Lughlongarm Would you mind edit the link? It only directs you to the build edior site, not the build itself

Lughlongarm · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Hi, Something I noticed playing with - http://en.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:EsoBuildEditor

Dots & bleeds scales much better with max stamina compared to weapon damage, especially passive bleeds like the WW bleed and the axe bleed. Could it be or just an editor bug?

@Lughlongarm Would you mind edit the link? It only directs you to the build edior site, not the build itself

Hi, I think I have found my error. I tried to create a build with Leki's Focus Set, it seems that the editor count WW passive bleed and axe passive build as AOE attaks so leki reduce the damage done by 25%, I have no confirmation it's the same way in-game and if you also get 25% reduction from other players passive bleeds.

Shame, but now I get the feeling this set doesn't worth it

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

For those who might be interested, @Blobsky is currently streaming his attempt at an open world Stamblade Werewolf :
https://twitch.tv/blobeso

He is currently using :
5 Bone Pirate's Tatters
5 Shacklebreaker
1 Molag Kena
1 Domihaus

Well that should be entertaining ^^ how did he manage self heal wise???

Qbiken · March 2018

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

For those who might be interested, @Blobsky is currently streaming his attempt at an open world Stamblade Werewolf :
https://twitch.tv/blobeso

He is currently using :
5 Bone Pirate's Tatters
5 Shacklebreaker
1 Molag Kena
1 Domihaus

Well that should be entertaining ^^ how did he manage self heal wise???

Shacklebreaker + Molag Kena gives you decent amount of spell-damage to boost your heals. It´s not comparable to Pelinial values but 5-7k heals would be expected.

Edit: Personally not a huge fan of bone-pirate on werewolf (since I prefer using builds where I stay in WW-form as much as possible). But for builds where you go in/out of it a lot I can see it working nicely.

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

Im playing around with Pelinals, Salvation and Thurvokun that and Claws of Anguish should be a very nasty combo ^^ @Blobsky what were your experiences while Testing this??