starkerealm wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

This community would complain to no end if content were truly gated behind a particular level or CP cap. Although people don't talk about it much, there are a fair number of under-experienced and/or under-leveled players that 'get carried' by their friends or guild members through difficult content to farm (monster helms, armor, skins, whatever).

Except very few people would complain about vet content being gated to C160 (which was my suggestion previously). Players under that cap have no real incentive to run vet content as any gear that drops for them will be under gear cap. It honestly makes the most sense to gate vet content to C160.

Right now, vet content is gated to level 50. If you're not level 50, you can't run vet content. Artificially moving that gateway up is, in my opinion, a bad idea. I get that some sectors of the community already do this. You'll see people saying, "you must be this high to ride this ride, in my group," but it's really not necessary.

Now, if I was going to say there should be a change regarding CR160... it'd be that we should do away with the whole, "gear cap," nonsense. Gear goes to level 50, it stops AT level 50, no materials past Tier 5. That way, once someone gets to the level cap, there's none of this, "well you can't really start working on your endgame stuff until you've advanced another 150 CP."

In a lot of ways, that's a holdover from when the level cap was V16. But, Honestly, fold all the CR gear down to 50, and it would probably better fit the game as it exists now (with a change to the overall scaling so that the new 50 gear is equivalent to the current 160 gear). Same way the extra 15 skill and attribute points were rolled into the basic leveling experience.

I don't think you'd really see people saying that, since it would be automatic. Honestly, there's already precedent from when ZOS changed certain normal dungeons to gate to level 45. That seems to have worked out decently.

I agree with your sentiments about gear cap though. And if gear cap stopped at 50, I think I'd be ok with vet content gated to level 50. The main point of gating vet is to make a soft barrier to entry to ensure that people who are in the content at least have the basic tools necessary to do their part. Part of that is being at gear cap.

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

...and have already judged whether or not I understand systems in the game without any knowledge regarding my understanding of these system.

No, you've demonstrated your, "knowledge" on the subject quite clearly. Or rather, your utter lack of same.

Knowledge wrote: »

Based on some of the posts in this thread and the logic shown the argument is that anyone that has "720 CP or higher" is good at the game. If there is anyone that isn't good with that much CP the entire argument collapses.

Well, that's a wonderful straw man argument you've just set up and started burning.

Look, if you would like to be a Skyreach baby, that is your right, and you're entirely welcome to wander off into Craglorn, pay someone, and start grinding Skyreach Catacombs until your eyes bleed. We won't stop you. It won't make you a better player. It won't even make you a good player.

If you want to get better at the game, get to 160, it'll take a week of casual play at most, and then start running content, and working on your build. You know, actually ****ing playing the game, like you seem to think you want to.

However, the suggestion that someone should be asked to cough up cash in order to grind up to cap is repugnant. It is a seriously stupid idea. It encourages publishers to create far more predatory grinds, just to fleece potential consumers out of their cash.

I mean, hey, if you want to be taken advantage of in that way, EA and Activision are right over there, cackling and rubbing their palms together in glee. But, if you want to play ESO, let's keep this bush league style, "pay for a fully geared endgame character," crap out.

I'd have to disagree with you. Level boosting in games exists in many MMORPGs and is almost an industry standard. The highest grossing MMOs in the world offer level boosts. They put you within ten levels of the current cap. FFXIV and WoW both do this which are huge titles.

It's not stupid at all it allows people with jobs, wives, and kids to play MMOs without grinding for hundreds of hours. It's smart and makes Blizzard and SquareEnix a lot of money.

CP will not make you better or worse and several veteran players have posted here regarding the steep grind on their fresh accounts. It's not just an issue that new players agree exists.

Lastly, you're getting very upset and it's uncalled for. I think you should calm down and realize this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Tandor wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I currently make well over 1,000,000 XP per hour, but it's not nearly enough. At the rate I'm going (I'm at 240 CP after around 10 days), it's going to be several WEEKS before I hit the cap. These people saying you can do it in "4 days" are full of beans.

If you said it would take several years to hit the cap, you'd definitely have an argument for speeding things up. If you said it would take several months, you might have an argument, but several weeks to achieve something that isn't strictly necessary for normal let alone casual gameplay, however desirable it may be for elite competitive gameplay is hardly a justification for speeding things up. You're already well past the only CP level that really matters to new or casual players (160CPs) and you've achieved that in several days.

I'm not saying you can do it in 4 days, I'm nowhere near myself after 4 years, but then I am a casual player and an altoholic to boot. By your own admission, however, it can be done in a few weeks and that should be good enough for anyone in a type of game intended to be played for years rather than weeks or even months.

A few weeks of no life non stop full throttle grinding translates to six months+ for even a midcore player.

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

man, you guys really like to write walls of text with personal stories

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

There is a CP catch-up mechanic, it's called enlightenment, and the experience requirements for the lower CP levels are heavily reduced each patch to allow you to catch up.

and with this, which was the 2nd post, can be the thread closed. Even i personally reached almost 800 CP in a few months via casual playing: random daily dungeon on 3 chars, writs on main, and a few quests now and then.

Juju_beans wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

One thing you all don't understand EDIT: or don't want to understand. Amount of exp need to reach CP cap is always the same, no matter is it 560 CP, or is it 720 amount of exp remains the same. So in the end even the ones that have 10 CP's are in better situation because they earn CP's faster and faster meaning less exp to reach 160 CP and start real endgame... and there is a "catchup" mechanic it is called Enlightment.What I don't like is hypocrisy. So when you will reach cap I don't want to see you defending CP's and how they are earned, I want to see you will still want them to be removed.

I blow though each day's Enlightenment in 10 minutes or less. Enlightenment needs to last for about 2 hours per day, assuming you want to encourage "normal" play. In terms of XP, Enlightenment should be multiplied by 10x, in my opinion.

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

Well tell your friends to play no CP campaigns til they max out.
Also tell your friends to check out the guild recruitment forums here for guilds that do take in non max CP toons for raiding.

I'd rather lobby for an overhaul of the CP system.

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

Yet again you demonstrate how ill-founded this thread is. Why are casual players concerned about how quickly they can get into endgame trials? How quickly do casual players expect to become the equal of veteran players in CP PvP?

You did several things in your post. You first assumed my friends were casual. They could just not be at CP cap yet or have no desire to grind it but haven't played since launch. I agree a sizable amount of time should exist between end game and normal content. No one should be able to become competitive in CP PVP immediately.

However, I do think the industry standard is around one to three months depending on the level of playtime. It's unrealistic to expect a six month+ time frame for relevancy like this title does (if you have a job, wife, kids, etc).

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

Yet again you demonstrate how ill-founded this thread is. Why are casual players concerned about how quickly they can get into endgame trials? How quickly do casual players expect to become the equal of veteran players in CP PvP?

You did several things in your post. You first assumed my friends were casual. They could just not be at CP cap yet or have no desire to grind it but haven't played since launch. I agree a sizable amount of time should exist between end game and normal content. No one should be able to become competitive in CP PVP immediately.

However, I do think the industry standard is around one to three months depending on the level of playtime. It's unrealistic to expect a six month+ time frame for relevancy like this title does (if you have a job, wife, kids, etc).

This thread that you started talked about "casual players" so of course all of us assume you're fighting for "casual players".

Here's your initial post

Knowledge wrote: »

As the champion point cap is gradually raised the casual players are left feeling like they are in a never-ending grind to catch-up. Why not offer an alternative similar to EVE Online? EVE Online allows you to purchase skillpoints for your character. Why not allow players in ESO to buy "Champion Packs" on the Crown Store similar to mount speed and inventory space?

Knowledge wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

It's my understanding that hard mode vet trials (dlc) are designed around CP600.

This community would complain to no end if content were truly gated behind a particular level or CP cap. Although people don't talk about it much, there are a fair number of under-experienced and/or under-leveled players that 'get carried' by their friends or guild members through difficult content to farm (monster helms, armor, skins, whatever).

Yeah, hard mode encounters, in general, are balanced around a CR600 player. Which... the thing about that is, your CP are far less significant towards your final DPS that it would be genuinely difficult to pin a CP threshold on those encounters if ZOS hadn't confirmed the numbers.

Being less significant and not significant are very different things.

Regardless of what you say or do CP does increase offense, it does increase defense, it does increase sustain. You can't argue against that.

Not significantly enough for it to matter. At that point, the difference between "less significant," and "not significant" becomes academic. Again, you're crying about statistical boosts that are too minor for you to get any meaningful value from them. Or, statistical boosts that are too minor for, "your friends," to get any value from. At that point, it is not significant.

Also, here's a fun thought for you to play with, CP doesn't increase sustain. No, really, it doesn't. You can get more millage out of being a werewolf for a stam build than you can from the stars. It can give you the tools to help you increase your sustain, but it doesn't, magically, make sustain trivial. You still need to know what you're doing or you will resource starve. Just like you do now.

Increasing offense and defense are similar stories. Yes, it increases your defenses... which doesn't matter at all when you're being hit for 100k. Yeah, that extra 5% fire resist sure helped with that, brought it down to only 95k.

Offense is the only one I'd grant you if it was enough to really push you over the edge, but, it's not. You still need to know what you're doing.

Juju_beans wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

One thing you all don't understand EDIT: or don't want to understand. Amount of exp need to reach CP cap is always the same, no matter is it 560 CP, or is it 720 amount of exp remains the same. So in the end even the ones that have 10 CP's are in better situation because they earn CP's faster and faster meaning less exp to reach 160 CP and start real endgame... and there is a "catchup" mechanic it is called Enlightment.What I don't like is hypocrisy. So when you will reach cap I don't want to see you defending CP's and how they are earned, I want to see you will still want them to be removed.

I blow though each day's Enlightenment in 10 minutes or less. Enlightenment needs to last for about 2 hours per day, assuming you want to encourage "normal" play. In terms of XP, Enlightenment should be multiplied by 10x, in my opinion.

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

Well tell your friends to play no CP campaigns til they max out.
Also tell your friends to check out the guild recruitment forums here for guilds that do take in non max CP toons for raiding.

I'd rather lobby for an overhaul of the CP system.

So it's more about what you want than concern about your friends.

His, "friends."

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

To be blunt, if they're having difficulty getting into raids that means one of two things. Either, they're not able to clear a parse threshold for the guild they're trying to run, in which case, CP will not miraculously lift the up, and grant them a 30k parse. It won't happen.

Second, if they're trying to PUG vet trials... yeah, that's never happening. They might get into a vet trial as 720s, but they'd get smeared by the first mechanic check, as the PUG comes apart at the seams. But, they would have found a large number of like-minded individuals who also believed that hitting CR720 would magically grant them superpowers.

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

It's my understanding that hard mode vet trials (dlc) are designed around CP600.

This community would complain to no end if content were truly gated behind a particular level or CP cap. Although people don't talk about it much, there are a fair number of under-experienced and/or under-leveled players that 'get carried' by their friends or guild members through difficult content to farm (monster helms, armor, skins, whatever).

Yeah, hard mode encounters, in general, are balanced around a CR600 player. Which... the thing about that is, your CP are far less significant towards your final DPS that it would be genuinely difficult to pin a CP threshold on those encounters if ZOS hadn't confirmed the numbers.

Being less significant and not significant are very different things.

Regardless of what you say or do CP does increase offense, it does increase defense, it does increase sustain. You can't argue against that.

Not significantly enough for it to matter. At that point, the difference between "less significant," and "not significant" becomes academic. Again, you're crying about statistical boosts that are too minor for you to get any meaningful value from them. Or, statistical boosts that are too minor for, "your friends," to get any value from. At that point, it is not significant.

Also, here's a fun thought for you to play with, CP doesn't increase sustain. No, really, it doesn't. You can get more millage out of being a werewolf for a stam build than you can from the stars. It can give you the tools to help you increase your sustain, but it doesn't, magically, make sustain trivial. You still need to know what you're doing or you will resource starve. Just like you do now.

Increasing offense and defense are similar stories. Yes, it increases your defenses... which doesn't matter at all when you're being hit for 100k. Yeah, that extra 5% fire resist sure helped with that, brought it down to only 95k.

Offense is the only one I'd grant you if it was enough to really push you over the edge, but, it's not. You still need to know what you're doing.

Juju_beans wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

One thing you all don't understand EDIT: or don't want to understand. Amount of exp need to reach CP cap is always the same, no matter is it 560 CP, or is it 720 amount of exp remains the same. So in the end even the ones that have 10 CP's are in better situation because they earn CP's faster and faster meaning less exp to reach 160 CP and start real endgame... and there is a "catchup" mechanic it is called Enlightment.What I don't like is hypocrisy. So when you will reach cap I don't want to see you defending CP's and how they are earned, I want to see you will still want them to be removed.

I blow though each day's Enlightenment in 10 minutes or less. Enlightenment needs to last for about 2 hours per day, assuming you want to encourage "normal" play. In terms of XP, Enlightenment should be multiplied by 10x, in my opinion.

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

Well tell your friends to play no CP campaigns til they max out.
Also tell your friends to check out the guild recruitment forums here for guilds that do take in non max CP toons for raiding.

I'd rather lobby for an overhaul of the CP system.

So it's more about what you want than concern about your friends.

His, "friends."

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

To be blunt, if they're having difficulty getting into raids that means one of two things. Either, they're not able to clear a parse threshold for the guild they're trying to run, in which case, CP will not miraculously lift the up, and grant them a 30k parse. It won't happen.

Second, if they're trying to PUG vet trials... yeah, that's never happening. They might get into a vet trial as 720s, but they'd get smeared by the first mechanic check, as the PUG comes apart at the seams. But, they would have found a large number of like-minded individuals who also believed that hitting CR720 would magically grant them superpowers.

Once again you fall into the same pit. If, in your words, it's not significant why are you so aggressively against giving people CP at a faster rate? You just said it isn't significant.

• Why would it matter if they earned them if they aren't significant?
• Why do you care if they have them at a faster pace?
• It makes little sense to argue for the system to remain intact with your argument.
• How can one pay to win for something that doesn't help them win?

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

this is just a forum discussion about a game system it's not serious it's just a game we play to have fun every day after work.

Well then, it shouldn't worry you how slowly or quickly you progress in it, should it? After all, it's just a game you play to have fun every day after work.

Of course it concerns me. I have friends that are trying to get to a meaningful CP level that feel worthless in CP PVP. They have to fight to get into a trial group. It's really concerning.

Yet again you demonstrate how ill-founded this thread is. Why are casual players concerned about how quickly they can get into endgame trials? How quickly do casual players expect to become the equal of veteran players in CP PvP?

You did several things in your post. You first assumed my friends were casual. They could just not be at CP cap yet or have no desire to grind it but haven't played since launch. I agree a sizable amount of time should exist between end game and normal content. No one should be able to become competitive in CP PVP immediately.

However, I do think the industry standard is around one to three months depending on the level of playtime. It's unrealistic to expect a six month+ time frame for relevancy like this title does (if you have a job, wife, kids, etc).

(my bold)

I didn't assume anything. I re-read your original post, which is the basis of this thread:-

Knowledge wrote: »

As the champion point cap is gradually raised the casual players are left feeling like they are in a never-ending grind to catch-up. Why not offer an alternative similar to EVE Online? EVE Online allows you to purchase skillpoints for your character. Why not allow players in ESO to buy "Champion Packs" on the Crown Store similar to mount speed and inventory space?

(my bold)

This thread is about casual players, in accordance with your opening post and proposal. Just because you've overwhelmingly lost the argument doesn't mean that you can suddenly decide it's about something else.

Knowledge wrote: »

You just said it isn't significant.

For someone who doesn't know how to play the game, it doesn't do anything for them.

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

You just said it isn't significant.

For someone who doesn't know how to play the game, it doesn't do anything for them.

Ah, a modification of your position.

Now I will ask the question that is deemed necessary following your predicted statement.

Does CP make a player better? if it doesn't, I will reiterate.

• Why would it matter if they earned them if they don't increase player skill?
• Why do you care if they have them at a faster pace?
• It makes little sense to argue for the system to remain intact with your argument.
• How can one pay to win for something that doesn't help them win?

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Many of you are adamant about CP not being significant. How can buying CP be "pay to win" if it's so insignificant? How does that argument stand?

It isn't about it being P2W, it's about your suggestion to promote a toxic environment for the casuals you pretend to campaign for, which in turn would drive them from the game.

Casuals are driven from the game constantly or are discouraged from trying harder content for fear of elitism. Low CP players get kicked from groups, can't join viable PVP guilds, are felt like they are worthless, and the game becomes more and more top heavy.

Historically top heavy MMOs (filled with only elite players) slowly die.

Knowledge wrote: »

Casuals are driven from the game constantly or from trying harder content for fear of elitism.

Not like this. Not like what you're suggesting.

Right now, there are plenty of idiots floating around who think you need some unreasonable CP count to participate. But, the devs aren't right there, with their hand out, saying, "pay us an extra 10k crowns, or you don't get to run content." Do you have any idea how many people that kind of naked greed would drive from the community? No, you don't.